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cant translate. however, allegiance is to God the father, the entity I assume is the Adjuster? The guide that leads you to him.
They’re one and the same, right? You swear allegiance to one, you’re swearing allegiance to both manifestations of the same Father. As I understand it. And it ain’t hard to do either.
And what if these descending Sons break with the administration as did Lucifer et al., does Michael still have direct contact with them? The revelation you quote does not support that Michael is able to know all thoughts throughout his dominion or remain in contact with every being; communication is a two-way street. In fact, it makes no mention of that ability. Michael only is able to access the emotions and know the actions of Sons “serving in his dominion.” In essence, descending Sons in our local universe who remain steadfast in their stations have their emotions and actions broadcast to Michael; they operate in full disclosure and publicize their feelings. When those conditions are met, reflectivity occurs and contact is made. However, we are told in the text, that a certain number of Sons breached their duty of trust and, in effect, were removed from their stations. Those very Sons then have the prerogative to conceal emotions and, within limits, actions.Only mortal born ascenders have TA’s – not descending Sons.
Yes, that is correct. And it is also a fact that Michael has direct contact with every one of his descending Sons. He knows, at all times and in all places, everything thing they think, feel, say and do.
20:1.13 The Creator Sons seem to possess a spiritual endowment centering in their persons, which they control and which they can bestow, as did your own Creator Son when he poured out his spirit upon all mortal flesh on Urantia. Each Creator Son is endowed with this spiritual drawing power in his own realm; he is personally conscious of every act and emotion of every descending Son of God serving in his domain. Here is a divine reflection, a local universe duplication, of that absolute spiritual drawing power of the Eternal Son which enables him to reach out to make and maintain contact with all his Paradise Sons, no matter where they may be in all the universe of universes.
BB
descending Sons in our local universe who remain steadfast in their stations have their emotions and actions broadcast to Michael; they operate in full disclosure and publicize their feelings. When those conditions are met, reflectivity occurs and contact is made.
Do you have a quote to support that statement? If so, I’d like to read it.
Brooklyn_born wrote:Those very Sons then have the prerogative to conceal emotions and, within limits, actions.Do you have a quote to support that statement? If so, I’d like to read it.Bonita, it is implied in the very revelation you and Bradly quote:20:1.13 The Creator Sons seem to possess a spiritual endowment centering in their persons, which they control and which they can bestow, as did your own Creator Son when he poured out his spirit upon all mortal flesh on Urantia. Each Creator Son is endowed with this spiritual drawing power in his own realm; he is personally conscious of every act and emotion of every descending Son of God serving in his domain. Here is a divine reflection, a local universe duplication, of that absolute spiritual drawing power of the Eternal Son which enables him to reach out to make and maintain contact with all his Paradise Sons, no matter where they may be in all the universe of universes.The above states that Michael is conscious of the acts and emotions of DSoG “serving in his domain.” The revelation is very specific to tell us that this applies to those who serve in Michael’s domain. If these sons do not serve in his domain then that revelation logically cannot apply to them. And this is the case of Lucifer et al. as they no longer serve Michael in any capacity..Be that as it may, here is one example of a conditional revelation where the Revelators do not know the state of mind or emotion of the rebels:53:9.7 …We believe that all rebels who will ever accept mercy have done so.Here is another revelation where the Revelator admits mind is not fully known which forces them to qualify certain of their revelations on mind:9:6.8 The mind-gravity circuit is dependable; it emanates from the Third Person of Deity on Paradise, but not all the observable function of mind is predictable. Throughout all known creation there parallels this circuit of mind some little-understood presence whose function is not predictable. We believe that this unpredictability is partly attributable to the function of the Universal Absolute. What this function is, we do not know; what actuates it, we can only conjecture; concerning its relation to creatures, we can only speculate.9:6.9 Certain phases of the unpredictability of finite mind may be due to the
incompleteness of the Supreme Being, and there is a vast zone of activities wherein the
Conjoint Actor and the Universal Absolute may possibly be tangent. There is much about
mind that is unknown, but of this we are sure: The Infinite Spirit is the perfect expression
of the mind of the Creator to all creatures; the Supreme Being is the evolving expression
of the minds of all creatures to their Creator.descending Sons in our local universe who remain steadfast in their stations have their emotions and actions broadcast to Michael; they operate in full disclosure and publicize their feelings. When those conditions are met, reflectivity occurs and contact is made.
Do you have a quote to support that statement? If so, I’d like to read it.
Brooklyn_born wrote:Those very Sons then have the prerogative to conceal emotions and, within limits, actions.Do you have a quote to support that statement? If so, I’d like to read it.BB
The revelation tells us Lucifer charged that “the Universal Father did not REALLY exist… and that the Father was a myth invented by the Paradise Sons.” Lucifer never stated the Father did not exist. His position, bascially, is the Father did not exist in the first person or in his own persons. Instead, according to Lucifer, the Father exists only from a Third Person point of view; that is, as dogma or “myth” laid out by the Paradise Sons. And to be quite frank, the Urantia book is delivered in the third person perspective regarding the Father. And that fact got us in quite a pickle I’d say because it lends some credence to Lucifer’s argument. Now, Bradly, hopefully, you will compose yourself and attack the argument, not me. Think you can handle that?
Third time I’ve posted on this thread…but I can post as often as needed… 53:3.1 (603.2) Whatever the early origins of trouble in the hearts of Lucifer and Satan, the final outbreak took form as the Lucifer Declaration of Liberty. The cause of the rebels was stated under three heads: 53:3.2 (603.3) 1. The reality of the Universal Father. Lucifer charged that the Universal Father did not really exist, that physical gravity and space-energy were inherent in the universe, and that the Father was a myth invented by the Paradise Sons to enable them to maintain the rule of the universes in the Father’s name. He denied that personality was a gift of the Universal Father. He even intimated that the finaliters were in collusion with the Paradise Sons to foist fraud upon all creation since they never brought back a very clear-cut idea of the Father’s actual personality as it is discernible on Paradise. He traded on reverence as ignorance. The charge was sweeping, terrible, and blasphemous. It was this veiled attack upon the finaliters that no doubt influenced the ascendant citizens then on Jerusem to stand firm and remain steadfast in resistance to all the rebel’s proposals. 53:3.3 (603.4) 2. The universe government of the Creator Son — Michael. Lucifer contended that the local systems should be autonomous. He protested against the right of Michael, the Creator Son, to assume sovereignty of Nebadon in the name of a hypothetical Paradise Father and require all personalities to acknowledge allegiance to this unseen Father. He asserted that the whole plan of worship was a clever scheme to aggrandize the Paradise Sons. He was willing to acknowledge Michael as his Creator-father but not as his God and rightful ruler.
BB
Bonita, it is implied in the very revelation you and Bradly quote:
Isn’t implication another form of personal interpretation? Implication means that there is a suggestion of something, an innuendo or imputation. In fact the words leave no implication that the descending Sons must broadcast their emotions and acts to the Creator Son. In fact, it says that the Creator Son is personally conscious of every act and every emotion of every descending Son without any qualifiers at all. Your statement that the Creator Son can only be conscious of these things if the descending Sons ” . . . operate in full disclosure and publicize their feelings. When those conditions are met, reflectivity occurs and contact is made.” (your words)
20:1.13 . . . he is personally conscious of every act and emotion of every descending Son of God serving in his domain.
There are no qualifiers at all in the above quote.
The revelation is very specific to tell us that this applies to those who serve in Michael’s domain. If these sons do not serve in his domain then that revelation logically cannot apply to them.
What do you think is Michael’s domain? Did Lucifer ever serve outside of Michael’s domain?
And this is the case of Lucifer et al. as they no longer serve Michael in any capacity.
How are you defining the word “serve”? Does service only mean preforming a duty?
Be that as it may, here is one example of a conditional revelation where the Revelators do not know the state of mind or emotion of the rebels: 53:9.7 …We believe that all rebels who will ever accept mercy have done so.
The revelators are not Michael, are they?
Here is another revelation where the Revelator admits mind is not fully known which forces them to qualify certain of their revelations on mind: 9:6.8 The mind-gravity circuit is dependable; it emanates from the Third Person of Deity on Paradise, but not all the observable function of mind is predictable. Throughout all known creation there parallels this circuit of mind some little-understood presence whose function is not predictable. We believe that this unpredictability is partly attributable to the function of the Universal Absolute. What this function is, we do not know; what actuates it, we can only conjecture; concerning its relation to creatures, we can only speculate.
As I said above, the revelators are not Michael, nor are the Paradise Sons. Did any Michael, Daynal or Avonal write any part of TUB? I can’t recall. Quotes 9:6.8-9 have nothing to do with spiritual gravity of the Eternal Son, of which the Michaels and other Paradise Sons use a local universe duplicate:
20:1.13 Here is a divine reflection, a local universe duplication, of that absolute spiritual drawing power of the Eternal Son which enables him to reach out to make and maintain contact with all his Paradise Sons, no matter where they may be in all the universe of universes.
Bonita, it is implied in the very revelation you and Bradly quote:
Isn’t implication another form of personal interpretation? Implication means that there is a suggestion of something, an innuendo or imputation. In fact the words leave no implication that the descending Sons must broadcast their emotions and acts to the Creator Son. In fact, it says that the Creator Son is personally conscious of every act and every emotion of every descending Son without any qualifiers at all. Your statement that the Creator Son can only be conscious of these things if the descending Sons ” . . . operate in full disclosure and publicize their feelings. When those conditions are met, reflectivity occurs and contact is made.” (your words)
Bonita, in order to reflect, there has to be a receiving end. If you are on the receiving end, you are dependent then on the party reflecting to you. It is a two-way relationship as I told you before. I encourage you to consider the definition of the word reflection:
reflect
verb (used with object)
1.
to cast back (light, heat, sound, etc.) from a surface:
The mirror reflected the light onto the wall.2.
to give back or show an image of; mirror.3.
(of an act or its result) to serve to cast or bring (credit, discredit,etc.) on its performer.4.
to reproduce; show:
followers reflecting the views of the leader.5.
to throw or cast back; cause to return or rebound:
Her bitterness reflects gloom on all her family.20:1.13 . . . he is personally conscious of every act and emotion of every descending Son of God serving in his domain.
There are no qualifiers at all in the above quote.
You are incorrect. The qualifier is “serving in his domain.” Lucifer et al. do not serve in Michael’s domain. FACT.
What do you think is Michael’s domain? Did Lucifer ever serve outside of Michael’s domain?
Michael’s domain is the local universe, Nebadon. Lucifer NO LONGER serves in this domain. He stopped serving when he REBELLED. He is now interned. Therefore that revelation NO LONGER applies to him.
How are you defining the word “serve”? Does service only mean preforming a duty?
That is exactly what it means unless you can prove otherwise.
The revelators are not Michael, are they?
No. The Revelators are not Michael.
Here is another revelation where the Revelator admits mind is not fully known which forces them to qualify certain of their revelations on mind: 9:6.8 The mind-gravity circuit is dependable; it emanates from the Third Person of Deity on Paradise, but not all the observable function of mind is predictable. Throughout all known creation there parallels this circuit of mind some little-understood presence whose function is not predictable. We believe that this unpredictability is partly attributable to the function of the Universal Absolute. What this function is, we do not know; what actuates it, we can only conjecture; concerning its relation to creatures, we can only speculate.
As I said above, the revelators are not Michael, nor are the Paradise Sons. Did any Michael, Daynal or Avonal write any part of TUB? I can’t recall. Quotes 9:6.8-9 have nothing to do with spiritual gravity of the Eternal Son, of which the Michaels and other Paradise Sons use a local universe duplicate:
You are not making sense. The revelation above illustrates mind cannot be fully known as you and Bradly implied when you referenced a revelation that did not even bolster your position.
20:1.13 Here is a divine reflection, a local universe duplication, of that absolute spiritual drawing power of the Eternal Son which enables him to reach out to make and maintain contact with all his Paradise Sons, no matter where they may be in all the universe of universes.
And how does reflectivity apply to faith based Sons of God? Paradise Sons are not faith based. They know the Father. Descending Sons of God believe and have Faith in the Father. They do not possess the capacity to “know” him like the Paradise Sons. Further, reflectivity, as I explained before, is a TWO-WAY relationship, not a ONE-WAY as you think.
BB
onita, in order to reflect, there has to be a receiving end. If you are on the receiving end, you are dependent then on the party reflecting to you. It is a two-way relationship as I told you before. I encourage you to consider the definition of the word reflection:
The quote does NOT say that the method by which Michael is conscious of all his Sons’ emotions and actions is part of the phenomenon of reflectivity. The quote DOES state that the method is part of the “ABSOLUTE DRAWING POWER OF THE ETERNAL SON”. This another name for spirit gravity circuit. The spirit gravity circuit is not utilized in reflectivity.
20:1.13 The Creator Sons seem to possess a spiritual endowment centering in their persons, which they control and which they can bestow, as did your own Creator Son when he poured out his spirit upon all mortal flesh on Urantia. Each Creator Son is endowed with this spiritual drawing power in his own realm; he is personally conscious of every act and emotion of every descending Son of God serving in his domain. Here is a divine reflection, a local universe duplication, of that absolute spiritual drawing power of the Eternal Son which enables him to reach out to make and maintain contact with all his Paradise Sons, no matter where they may be in all the universe of universes.
Note that the quote describes the DRAWING POWER as a DIVINE REFLECTION. This means that it is a divine expression or manifestation of the same DRAWING POWER originating in the Eternal Son. The words “divine reflection” refer to the fact that the spiritual gravity circuit is duplicated in the local universe, but centered in the Creative Son (Michael) rather than the Eternal Son. This duplication, or divine reflection is a subabsolute functioning of the Eternal Son’s spirit gravity circuit.
Here is a description the subabsolute
7:1.5 The Son’s spiritual drawing power is inherent to a lesser degree in many Paradise orders of sonship. For there do exist within the absolute spirit-gravity circuit those local systems of spiritual attraction that function in the lesser units of creation. Such subabsolute focalizations of spirit gravity are a part of the divinity of the Creator personalities of time and space and are correlated with the emerging experiential overcontrol of the Supreme Being.
Here is an explanation of how the spirit gravity circuit works:
7.3.4 The discriminative operation of the spirit-gravity circuit might possibly be compared to the functions of the neural circuits in the material human body: Sensations travel inward over the neural paths; some are detained and responded to by the lower automatic spinal centers; others pass on to the less automatic but habit-trained centers of the lower brain, while the most important and vital incoming messages flash by these subordinate centers and are immediately registered in the highest levels of human consciousness.
Just as sensations travel inward over neural paths in humans, information concerning all his children travels inward over spirit gravity paths to Michael. And just like human beings AUTOMATICALLY have their sensations transmitted over neural paths, descending Sons (and all his other children as well) have their sensations (emotions) transmitted over the spirit gravity circuit. I surmise that sin and iniquity can affect these transmissions, as a form of self-destruction. Removing oneself from the vine will naturally result in death. If Lucifer is alive there is a connection.
You are incorrect. The qualifier is “serving in his domain.” Lucifer et al. do not serve in Michael’s domain. FACT.
As long as Lucifer is alive, he is in service to Michael. He may choose to refuse this FACT, but until he’s annihilated, he’s in service. And Michael’s domain is the entire local universe of Nebadon. Where is Lucifer now? He’s in Satania. Where is Satania? It’s IN Michael’s domain.
That is exactly what it means unless you can prove otherwise.
To serve also means to be a member of something. In this case, Lucifer is a member of Michael’s universe family. As long as he is alive, he is serving as a member of the family.
You are not making sense. The revelation above illustrates mind cannot be fully known as you and Bradly implied when you referenced a revelation that did not even bolster your position.
The quotes 9:6.8-9 are not about Michael’s spirit drawing power which makes him conscious of every descending Son’s emotions and acts. The quotes you are using are about mind-gravity, NOT spirit-gravity, which is a subabsolute circuit of the Eternal Son’s circuit, centered in Michael himself. Mind gravity is a function of the Third Person of Deity and in our local universe, it is centered in the Creative Spirit.
And how does reflectivity apply to faith based Sons of God?
We’re not talking about faith-sons. We’re talking about descending Son’s, right? And we’re not talking about reflectivity. We’re talking about spirit gravity.
[Oh, sorry . . . my caps are not meant to be shouting or yelling. I’m using them for stress rather than bold type or italic. I prefer to use bold type within quotes and italics for quoting posters and sometimes TUB.]
The quote does NOT say that the method by which Michael is conscious of all his Sons’ emotions and actions is part of the phenomenon of reflectivity. The quote DOES state that the method is part of the “ABSOLUTE DRAWING POWER OF THE ETERNAL SON”. This another name for spirit gravity circuit. The spirit gravity circuit is not utilized in reflectivity.
20:1.13 The Creator Sons seem to possess a spiritual endowment centering in their persons, which they control and which they can bestow, as did your own Creator Son when he poured out his spirit upon all mortal flesh on Urantia. Each Creator Son is endowed with this spiritual drawing power in his own realm; he is personally conscious of every act and emotion of every descending Son of God serving in his domain. Here is a divine reflection, a local universe duplication, of that absolute spiritual drawing power of the Eternal Son which enables him to reach out to make and maintain contact with all his Paradise Sons, no matter where they may be in all the universe of universes.
Bonita, there are revelations that speak to this spiritual mechanism (reflectivity). Consider this one…
53:2.3 […] Notwithstanding his silence, for more than one hundred years of standard time the Union of Days on Salvington had been reflectivating to Uversa that all was not at peace in Lucifer’s mind. This information was also communicated to the Creator Son and the Constellation Fathers of Norlatiadek.
Lucifer at this stage did not lose his mind (cosmic mind) fully so there was some mental stability/peace to effect a two-way communication between higher authorities, including Michael, and himself. If the Paradise Sons know all thoughts in the mind of their Lanonandek Sons, regardless of the latter’s mental state, why then was there a need for the Union of Days to intervene with his reflectivity capabilities to communicate to Michael Lucifer’s mental disturbance? Why was not Michael aware of this? BTW…, I never said spiritual gravity circuit and reflectivity are the same.
As long as Lucifer is alive, he is in service to Michael. He may choose to refuse this FACT, but until he’s annihilated, he’s in service. And Michael’s domain is the entire local universe of Nebadon. Where is Lucifer now? He’s in Satania. Where is Satania? It’s IN Michael’s domain.
Absolute rubbish, Bonita. This is what we are told about their service to Michael.53:7.13 With the arrival of Lanaforge the archrebels were dethroned and shorn of all governing powers, though they were permitted freely to go about Jerusem, the morontia spheres, and even to the individual inhabited worlds. They continued their deceptive and seductive efforts to confuse and mislead the minds of men and angels. But as concerned their work on the administrative mount of Jerusem, “their place was found no more.”They are NOT in the service of Michael. Once upon a time they were but not when they rebelled. And as long as they do not accept rehabilitation they are not serving Michael.To serve also means to be a member of something. In this case, Lucifer is a member of Michael’s universe family. As long as he is alive, he is serving as a member of the family.
I cannot take you seriously at this stage with what you just stated above, Bonita.The quotes 9:6.8-9 are not about Michael’s spirit drawing power which makes him conscious of every descending Son’s emotions and acts. The quotes you are using are about mind-gravity, NOT spirit-gravity, which is a subabsolute circuit of the Eternal Son’s circuit, centered in Michael himself. Mind gravity is a function of the Third Person of Deity and in our local universe, it is centered in the Creative Spirit.
Bonita, Michael does not know every thought occurring in the minds of Wayward Sons. I already gave you the revelation. Here it is again…53:2.3 […] Notwithstanding his silence, for more than one hundred years of standard time the Union of Days on Salvington had been reflectivating to Uversa that all was not at peace in Lucifer’s mind. This information was also communicated to the Creator Son and the Constellation Fathers of Norlatiadek.As long as these Sons refuse rehabilitation, they remain out of the fold. They are not serving in the celestial ministry to humankind.BB
Bonita, there are revelations that speak to this spiritual mechanism (reflectivity). Consider this one… 53:2.3 […] Notwithstanding his silence, for more than one hundred years of standard time the Union of Days on Salvington had been reflectivating to Uversa that all was not at peace in Lucifer’s mind. This information was also communicated to the Creator Son and the Constellation Fathers of Norlatiadek.
Lucifer at this stage did not lose his mind (cosmic mind) fully so there was some mental stability/peace to effect a two-way communication between higher authorities, including Michael, and himself. If the Paradise Sons know all thoughts in the mind of their Lanonandek Sons, regardless of the latter’s mental state, why then was there a need for the Union of Days to intervene with his reflectivity capabilities to communicate to Michael Lucifer’s mental disturbance? Why was not Michael aware of this? BTW…, I never said spiritual gravity circuit and reflectivity are the same.
You’re still talking about two different things. The manner in which Michael is conscious of every emotion and act of his descending Sons is NOT through reflectivity of mind activity. (Recall that reflectivity is a function of the Infinite Spirit, the source of mind). Michael uses a spiritual circuit, which is separate from reflectivity. Also, recall that the Unions of Days are representatives of the Trinity who act as advisors to the local universes. Michael likely already knew that Lucifer’s emotions and actions were not peaceful, but after the Unions of Days reported on the matter, it became a matter that went beyond the local universe. Michael would necessarily need to know that.
18:6.3 In a special manner these Trinity observers co-ordinate the administrative activities of all branches of the universal government, from those of the local universes up through the sector governments to those of the superuniverse, hence their name — Unions of Days. They make a threefold report to their superiors: They report pertinent data of a physical and semi-intellectual nature to the Recents of Days of their minor sector; they report intellectual and quasi-spiritual happenings to the Perfections of Days of their major sector; they report spiritual and semiparadisiacal matters to the Ancients of Days at the capital of their superuniverse.
Absolute rubbish, Bonita. This is what we are told about their service to Michael.
53:7.13 With the arrival of Lanaforge the archrebels were dethroned and shorn of all governing powers, though they were permitted freely to go about Jerusem, the morontia spheres, and even to the individual inhabited worlds. They continued their deceptive and seductive efforts to confuse and mislead the minds of men and angels. But as concerned their work on the administrative mount of Jerusem, “their place was found no more.” They are NOT in the service of Michael. Once upon a time they were but not when they rebelled. And as long as they do not accept rehabilitation they are not serving Michael.
Well first of all, I find it offensive to be told my words are “absolute rubbish”. I’ll accept your apology. But here again, you are using only one rigid meaning of the word “serve”, that of performing a duty/job, behaving as a servant. There are other meanings of the word “serve” you might consider. Descending Sons are created for no other reason but service to the local universe. Their very existence IS service. Only when they no longer exist do they no longer serve. Lucifer may be imprisoned but he is still in the service of Michael. Soldiers who are imprisoned are still “in the service” until they are discharged. In Lucifer’s case, his discharge will be his annihilation.
Bonita, Michael does not know every thought occurring in the minds of Wayward Sons. I already gave you the revelation. Here it is again…
The quote in question states that the Creator Son is personally conscious of every emotion and action of every descending Son serving in his domain. Does every emotion and action mean every thought? That is certainly up for debate. Not all thoughts are emotions. However, I do think doubt, distrust, hate and suspicion are emotions that Michael would likely be conscious of, and Lucifer is certainly guilty of harboring those emotions. Here’s the quote again:
20:1.13 The Creator Sons seem to possess a spiritual endowment centering in their persons, which they control and which they can bestow, as did your own Creator Son when he poured out his spirit upon all mortal flesh on Urantia. Each Creator Son is endowed with this spiritual drawing power in his own realm; he is personally conscious of every act and emotion of every descending Son of God serving in his domain.Here is a divine reflection, a local universe duplication, of that absolute spiritual drawing power of the Eternal Son which enables him to reach out to make and maintain contact with all his Paradise Sons, no matter where they may be in all the universe of universes.
As long as these Sons refuse rehabilitation, they remain out of the fold. They are not serving in the celestial ministry to humankind.
Would you mind providing the quote which states that Lucifer is no longer a member of “the fold”. What is the meaning of the phrase, “the fold”? I think it means the universe family. Until the trial is over and Lucifer is annihilated, he is a member of “the fold”. Some may not like that, but that’s the way it is. He gets every opportunity for mercy right up until the very end when he no longer IS. Don’t forget that Michael is the Good Shepherd and he never gives up on any one of the sheep in his fold. It’s the other way around, they give up on him.
You’re still talking about two different things. The manner in which Michael is conscious of every emotion and act of his descending Sons is NOT through reflectivity of mind activity. (Recall that reflectivity is a function of the Infinite Spirit, the source of mind). Michael uses a spiritual circuit, which is separate from reflectivity. Also, recall that the Unions of Days are representatives of the Trinity who act as advisors to the local universes. Michael likely already knew that Lucifer’s emotions and actions were not peaceful, but after the Unions of Days reported on the matter, it became a matter that went beyond the local universe. Michael would necessarily need to know that.
18:6.3 In a special manner these Trinity observers co-ordinate the administrative activities of all branches of the universal government, from those of the local universes up through the sector governments to those of the superuniverse, hence their name — Unions of Days. They make a threefold report to their superiors: They report pertinent data of a physical and semi-intellectual nature to the Recents of Days of their minor sector; they report intellectual and quasi-spiritual happenings to the Perfections of Days of their major sector; they report spiritual and semiparadisiacal matters to the Ancients of Days at the capital of their superuniverse.
Bonita, you say : “Michael likely already knew that Lucifer’s emotions and actions were not peaceful, but after the Unions of Days reported on the matter, it became a matter that went beyond the local universe. Michael would necessarily need to know that.”
You have absolutely no proof of this. The Revelator tells us Michael had to be informed by Union of Days of Lucifer’s mental state. That debunks your claim that Michael knows all that occurs in the mind of his sons. My point was to show you that you were wrong about your initial claim on the omniscience of Michael.
Absolute rubbish, Bonita. This is what we are told about their service to Michael.
53:7.13 With the arrival of Lanaforge the archrebels were dethroned and shorn of all governing powers, though they were permitted freely to go about Jerusem, the morontia spheres, and even to the individual inhabited worlds. They continued their deceptive and seductive efforts to confuse and mislead the minds of men and angels. But as concerned their work on the administrative mount of Jerusem, “their place was found no more.” They are NOT in the service of Michael. Once upon a time they were but not when they rebelled. And as long as they do not accept rehabilitation they are not serving Michael.
Well first of all, I find it offensive to be told my words are “absolute rubbish”. I’ll accept your apology. But here again, you are using only one rigid meaning of the word “serve”, that of performing a duty/job, behaving as a servant. There are other meanings of the word “serve” you might consider. Descending Sons are created for no other reason but service to the local universe. Their very existence IS service. Only when they no longer exist do they no longer serve. Lucifer may be imprisoned but he is still in the service of Michael. Soldiers who are imprisoned are still “in the service” until they are discharged. In Lucifer’s case, his discharge will be his annihilation.
Okay I apologize for using the word rubbish. Your statement is baseless. Lucifer does not serve Michael no matter what definition you want to use, Bonita. He REBELLED against Michael.Bonita, Michael does not know every thought occurring in the minds of Wayward Sons. I already gave you the revelation. Here it is again…
The quote in question states that the Creator Son is personally conscious of every emotion and action of every descending Son serving in his domain. Does every emotion and action mean every thought? That is certainly up for debate. Not all thoughts are emotions. However, I do think doubt, distrust, hate and suspicion are emotions that Michael would likely be conscious of, and Lucifer is certainly guilty of harboring those emotions. Here’s the quote again:
20:1.13 The Creator Sons seem to possess a spiritual endowment centering in their persons, which they control and which they can bestow, as did your own Creator Son when he poured out his spirit upon all mortal flesh on Urantia. Each Creator Son is endowed with this spiritual drawing power in his own realm; he is personally conscious of every act and emotion of every descending Son of God serving in his domain.Here is a divine reflection, a local universe duplication, of that absolute spiritual drawing power of the Eternal Son which enables him to reach out to make and maintain contact with all his Paradise Sons, no matter where they may be in all the universe of universes.
Bonita, I explained this already. The criteria for these sons is, “serving in his domain.”
As long as these Sons refuse rehabilitation, they remain out of the fold. They are not serving in the celestial ministry to humankind.
Would you mind providing the quote which states that Lucifer is no longer a member of “the fold”. What is the meaning of the phrase, “the fold”? I think it means the universe family. Until the trial is over and Lucifer is annihilated, he is a member of “the fold”. Some may not like that, but that’s the way it is. He gets every opportunity for mercy right up until the very end when he no longer IS. Don’t forget that Michael is the Good Shepherd and he never gives up on any one of the sheep in his fold. It’s the other way around, they give up on him.
fold = descending ministering of service. Their SERVICE to humankind is to facilitate the progress in the Paradise climb of the lowly creatures of evolutionary origin. Lucifer et al. no longer SERVE in this capacity.
20:1.1 All descending Sons of God have high and divine origins. They are dedicated to the
descending ministry of service on the worlds and systems of time and space, there to
facilitate the progress in the Paradise climb of the lowly creatures of evolutionary origin —
the ascending sons of God. Of the numerous orders of descending Sons, seven will be
depicted in these narratives.BB
The Revelator tells us Michael had to be informed by Union of Days of Lucifer’s mental state. That debunks your claim that Michael knows all that occurs in the mind of his sons.
I don’t see anything in the quote below that mentions the fact that Michael HAD to be informed. It simply says that the information was communicated to him along with the Constellation Fathers. It looks to me that you have read something into the quote that isn’t actually there.
53:2.3 Notwithstanding his silence, for more than one hundred years of standard time the Union of Days on Salvington had been reflectivating to Uversa that all was not at peace in Lucifer’s mind. This information was also communicated to the Creator Son and the Constellation Fathers of Norlatiadek.
My point was to show you that you were wrong about your initial claim on the omniscience of Michael.
I don’t recall ever using that word, OMNISCIENCE. It means the state of knowing EVERYTHING, not just emotions, thoughts and actions. Again, I think you read something into my post that just is not there.
The quote I provided explains that Michael’s spirit gravity circuit within his universe allows him to MAKE AND MAINTAIN contact with all of his Sons, and that contact gives him information on their emotions and actions. That’s all the quote says. It says nothing about OMNISCIENCE.
You asserted that Michael is unable to MAINTAIN contact with Lucifer’s emotions and actions presumably because you have read into the quote something about reflectivity. There is nothing in the quote about reflectivity either. The use of the word “reflection” seems to have thrown you off the fact that the quote is about Michael’s spirit circuit which originates in the Eternal Son. Reflectivity originates in the Infinite Spirit. The quote also says that it doesn’t matter where his Sons are in all universes of the Grand Universe . . . that would include the prison worlds. Michael has the ability to MAKE AND MAINTAIN that contact, even in the prison worlds (which belong to Michael).
20:1.13 Here is a divine reflection, a local universe duplication, of that absolute spiritual drawing power of the Eternal Son which enables him to reach out to make and maintain contact with all his Paradise Sons, no matter where they may be in all the universe of universes.
Your statement is baseless. Lucifer does not serve Michael no matter what definition you want to use, Bonita. He REBELLED against Michael.
Yes, he did rebel against Michael, but that changes nothing about the fact of SONSHIP. As long as Lucifer is alive, he has the gift of sonship, and SONSHIP IS SYNONYMOUS WITH SERVICE. Lanonandek Sons are created for only one purpose, they are unable to do anything other than the specific form of service they were created for. They cannot evolve into something else by sheer will, which is what Lucifer attempted to do. Lucifer’s “. . . rejection of universe allegiance and disregard of fraternal obligations, [and] blindness to cosmic relationships. (53:01)” does nothing at all to change the fact of sonship. Rejection of the gift of sonship, blindness to cosmic relations which results in refusal to accept universe responsibilities (service) cannot erase the fact of sonship until identity annihilation occurs. Every son of God, whether a big or small “s”, is entitled to all the mercy, love and tenderness both the universe and universal fathers have to give. Lucifer is still a Son, he is still in the service of Michael despite his emotional and mental condition.
Bonita, I explained this already. The criteria for these sons is, “serving in his domain.”
If Lucifer is not in Michael’s domain, where is he?
fold = descending ministering of service. Their SERVICE to humankind is to facilitate the progress in the Paradise climb of the lowly creatures of evolutionary origin. Lucifer et al. no longer SERVE in this capacity.
Just because Lucifer is incapacitated in his ability to serve in a particular capacity does not change the fact that he is a Son of God and a member of the FOLD. You wrote: “As long as these Sons refuse rehabilitation, they remain out of the fold.” Technically that’s impossible. As long as Lucifer is in existence he is in the fold of Sons; he has the gift of sonship. Sonship will not be taken from him until that moment when he no longer exists . . . as though he never was.
As long as Lucifer is in existence he is in the fold of Sons; he has the gift of sonship. Sonship will not be taken from him until that moment when he no longer exists . . . as though he never was.
Thank you Bonita for your patience with BB. I agree with your point of view about Lucifer. In support of your comments, I would like to add this bit about Caligastia, the deposed Planetary Prince of Urantia and a Son of the secondary order of Lanonandels. Caligastia is still free to roam on Urantia! He is still a Son of the secondary order of Lanonandeks, as far as I can tell. He’s still roaming around here.
53:1.4 [ [. . .] The “devil” is none other than Caligastia, the deposed Planetary Prince of Urantia and a Son of the secondary order of Lanonandeks. At the time Michael was on Urantia in the flesh, Lucifer, Satan, and Caligastia were leagued together to effect the miscarriage of his bestowal mission. But they signally failed.
53:8.6 The last act of Michael before leaving Urantia was to offer mercy to Caligastia and Daligastia, but they spurned his tender proffer. Caligastia, your apostate Planetary Prince, is still free on Urantia to prosecute his nefarious designs, but he has absolutely no power to enter the minds of men, neither can he draw near to their souls to tempt or corrupt them unless they really desire to be cursed with his wicked presence.66:8.7 And now this rebel [Caligastia] of the realm, shorn of all power to harm his former subjects, awaits the final adjudication, by the Uversa Ancients of Days, of all who participated in the Lucifer rebellionWhat do you think is the reason why Caligastia and Daligastia are allowed to roam free?
There must be a purpose.
What do you think is the reason why Caligastia and Daligastia are allowed to roam free?
You may find this reference interesting, regarding free will.
66:8.6 The doctrine of a personal devil on Urantia, though it had some foundation in the planetary presence of the traitorous and iniquitous Caligastia, was nevertheless wholly fictitious in its teachings that such a “devil” could influence the normal human mind against its free and natural choosing. Even before Michael’s bestowal on Urantia, neither Caligastia nor Daligastia was ever able to oppress mortals or to coerce any normal individual into doing anything against the human will. The free will of man is supreme in moral affairs; even the indwelling Thought Adjuster refuses to compel man to think a single thought or to perform a single act against the choosing of man’s own will.Humans (me and you, BB and Bonita, Midi and Bradly, Keryn et al, to include most everyone on the planet) is helped by the Adjutant Mind Spirits, the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of Truth, one’s a Thought Adjuster, and so on. All the help humans have going for them indicates to me once again that the purpose of our evolutionary struggles, our personal participation in the adventure of the attainment of light and life, both personally, for the sake of Urantia, and to contribute to the growth of the Supreme.54:2.3 Lucifer’s folly was the attempt to do the nondoable, to short-circuit time in an experiential universe. Lucifer’s crime was the attempted creative disenfranchisement of every personality in Satania, the unrecognized abridgment of the creature’s personal participation — freewill participation — in the long evolutionary struggle to attain the status of light and life both individually and collectively. In so doing this onetime Sovereign of your system set the temporal purpose of his own will directly athwart the eternal purpose of God’s will as it is revealed in the bestowal of free will upon all personal creatures. The Lucifer rebellion thus threatened the maximum possible infringement of the freewill choice of the ascenders and servers of the system of Satania — a threat forevermore to deprive every one of these beings of the thrilling experience of contributing something personal and unique to the slowly erecting monument to experiential wisdom which will sometime exist as the perfected system of Satania. Thus does the Lucifer manifesto, masquerading in the habiliments of liberty, stand forth in the clear light of reason as a monumental threat to consummate the theft of personal liberty and to do it on a scale that has been approached only twice in all the history of Nebadon.
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