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This is why I am baffled by any student of the Papers who remains skeptical of our safe keeping in this friendly universe or fears for our planet’s destiny or the absolute fairness inherent in the applications of mercy and judgement. For mercy is endless, or nearly so, and judgement is but a function of personal free will and conscious rejection of reality….love and mercy must be rejected. Forgiveness is not extended, it exists universally as a function of personal repentance, simply that personal desire to find God and become more and more like Him.
I am having difficulty understanding your true meaning as stated above, Bradly? Forgiveness, is the acceptance of love and mercy, by the sinner who repents of their transgressions and continues to use their free will to sine no more. Knowing that one is a sinner, without presenting a personal repentance of one’s sins to those who they sinned against, will not have a chance to be forgiven by the victims who were the receivers of the sins. Rejecting mercy, is the rejecting of repentance by the wrongdoer, which implies the conscious rejection of the reality of wrongdoing and the action and choosing to sin no more.
Forgiveness is always extended as a function of mercy whether sought or requested, but yes indeed…it must be accepted to be realized. The rejection of mercy is also the rejection of reality and love itself. Forgiveness by our victims is desirable for the benefit of the victims as we are taught that we are forgiven AS we forgive others….God’s forgiveness is all that is required for oneself. Self erasure is described as cosmic suicide here:
117:4.3 (1283.5) God is so trusting, so loving, that he gives a portion of his divine nature into the hands of even human beings for safekeeping and self-realization. The Father nature, the Adjuster presence, is indestructible regardless of the choice of the mortal being. The child of the Supreme, the evolving self, can be destroyed notwithstanding that the potentially unifying personality of such a misguided self will persist as a factor of the Deity of Supremacy.
117:4.4 (1283.6) The human personality can truly destroy individuality of creaturehood, and though all that was worth while in the life of such a cosmic suicide will persist, these qualities will not persist as an individual creature. The Supreme will again find expression in the creatures of the universes but never again as that particular person; the unique personality of a nonascender returns to the Supreme as a drop of water returns to the sea.
Time for another parable?
Forgiveness is always extended as a function of mercy whether sought or requested, but yes indeed…it must be accepted to be realized.
I thought our own forgiveness by Deity can only be realized when we actively forgive someone else.
170:2.23 Regarding sin, he taught that God has forgiven; that we make such forgiveness personally available by the act of forgiving our fellows. When you forgive your brother in the flesh, you thereby create the capacity in your own soul for the reception of the reality of God’s forgiveness of your own misdeeds.
MidiChlorian wrote:
Bradly wrote: This is why I am baffled by any student of the Papers who remains skeptical of our safe keeping in this friendly universe or fears for our planet’s destiny or the absolute fairness inherent in the applications of mercy and judgement. For mercy is endless, or nearly so, and judgement is but a function of personal free will and conscious rejection of reality….love and mercy must be rejected. Forgiveness is not extended, it exists universally as a function of personal repentance, simply that personal desire to find God and become more and more like Him.
I am having difficulty understanding your true meaning as stated above, Bradly? Forgiveness, is the acceptance of love and mercy, by the sinner who repents of their transgressions and continues to use their free will to sine no more. Knowing that one is a sinner, without presenting a personal repentance of one’s sins to those who they sinned against, will not have a chance to be forgiven by the victims who were the receivers of the sins. Rejecting mercy, is the rejecting of repentance by the wrongdoer, which implies the conscious rejection of the reality of wrongdoing and the action and choosing to sin no more.
Forgiveness is always extended as a function of mercy whether sought or requested, but yes indeed…it must be accepted to be realized. The rejection of mercy is also the rejection of reality and love itself. Forgiveness by our victims is desirable for the benefit of the victims as we are taught that we are forgiven AS we forgive others….God’s forgiveness is all that is required for oneself. Self erasure is described as cosmic suicide here:
Thanks for attempting to answer my difficulty of understanding your statement Bradly, however I’m not sure if it really answers my query? In your response above, which I have have bolded, it would seem that it should be reversed in that “mercy,” whether sought for or requested, is a function of “forgiveness”, not the other way around. One can forgive another for wrongdoing or an act against them, but mercy, is a function of judgment against a transgressor or transgression, of the wrongdoer or wrongdoing. Forgiveness of a wrongdoer, implies that the function of judgement by the receiver of wrongdoing is no longer sought for, and that this judgment has been passed onto the Ancient of Days for execution.
Nevertheless, the UB narration that you presented does not really explain your previous statement, in that they were in reference to the “Supreme” and in this section of the UB, it seems to answer my question as to where individuals seem to come from at the time of creature birth. It has been indicated that upon non-survival of a person, that that which is of value is passed on to the oversoul of creation, there to be used for the
penalization[was originally] personalization [have no idea how this got changed] of another unique creature. Thereby, being a source or well for future souls in the making.(1283.6) 117:4.4 The human personality can truly destroy individuality of creaturehood, and though all that was worth while in the life of such a cosmic suicide will persist, these qualities will not persist as an individual creature. The Supreme will again find expression in the creatures of the universes but never again as that particular person; the unique personality of a nonascender returns to the Supreme as a drop of water returns to the sea.
The reference to “cosmic suicide” is directed to being the “cosmic oversoul of the grand universe”, the place where the non-surviving soul patterns would be collected within the “Supreme” for amalgamation into another creature, and the “suicide” aspect of this is only the free-willful decision of the person to not choose survival. It has little to do with “forgiveness” but does indicate the function of “mercy”.
(1284.2) 117:4.6 And so, as we strive for self-expression, the Supreme is striving in us, and with us, for deity expression. As we find the Father, so has the Supreme again found the Paradise Creator of all things. As we master the problems of self-realization, so is the God of experience achieving almighty supremacy in the universes of time and space.
(1284.3) 117:4.7 Mankind does not ascend effortlessly in the universe, neither does the Supreme evolve without purposeful and intelligent action. Creatures do not attain perfection by mere passivity, nor can the spirit of Supremacy factualize the power of the Almighty without unceasing service ministry to the finite creation.
(1284.4) 117:4.8 The temporal relation of man to the Supreme is the foundation for cosmic morality, the universal sensitivity to, and acceptance of, duty. This is a morality which transcends the temporal sense of relative right and wrong; it is a morality directly predicated on the self-conscious creature’s appreciation of experiential obligation to experiential Deity. Mortal man and all other finite creatures are created out of the living potential of energy, mind, and spirit existent in the Supreme. It is upon the Supreme that the Adjuster-mortal ascender draws for the creation of the immortal and divine character of a finaliter. It is out of the very reality of the Supreme that the Adjuster, with the consent of the human will, weaves the patterns of the eternal nature of an ascending son of God.
So in a sense of a relation to time, or “temporal relation”, or over time, those souls that have not chosen survival, or that which is of value from the soul, are reused in hopes of creating a creature who’s “patterns of the eternal nature” can again be tested to become “an ascending son of God.” This does not resolve the issue of reincarnation, as assumed by some, but more so of re-creation of a potential soul.
The reference to “self-realization” is the reference of understanding the “reality” of oneself, and has little to do with the general reference to “material reality”, although our environment does play a part as related to experience.
(1284.6) 117:4.10 The great challenge that has been given to mortal man is this: Will you decide to personalize the experiencible value meanings of the cosmos into your own evolving selfhood? or by rejecting survival, will you allow these secrets of Supremacy to lie dormant, awaiting the action of another creature at some other time who will in his way attempt a creature contribution to the evolution of the finite God? But that will be his contribution to the Supreme, not yours.
(1284.7) 117:4.11 The great struggle of this universe age is between the potential and the actual — the seeking for actualization by all that is as yet unexpressed [“Intimation; a hint or suggestion; (rare) an announcement or notice”]. If mortal man proceeds upon the Paradise adventure, he is following the motions of time, which flow as currents within the stream of eternity; if mortal man rejects the eternal career, he is moving counter to the stream of events in the finite universes. The mechanical creation moves on inexorably [“not able to be moved by entreaty or persuasion”] in accordance with the unfolding purpose of the Paradise Father, but the volitional [“(philosophy) an act of will as distinguished from the physical movement it intends to bring about”] creation has the choice of accepting or of rejecting the role of personality participation in the adventure of eternity [“(theol.) the condition of timeless existence, believed by some to characterize the afterlife”]. Mortal man cannot destroy the supreme values of human existence, but he can very definitely prevent the evolution of these values in his own personal experience. To the extent that the human self thus refuses to take part in the Paradise ascent, to just that extent is the Supreme delayed in achieving divinity expression in the grand universe.
Forgiveness is always extended as a function of mercy whether sought or requested, but yes indeed…it must be accepted to be realized.
I thought our own forgiveness by Deity can only be realized when we actively forgive someone else.
170:2.23 Regarding sin, he taught that God has forgiven; that we make such forgiveness personally available by the act of forgiving our fellows. When you forgive your brother in the flesh, you thereby create the capacity in your own soul for the reception of the reality of God’s forgiveness of your own misdeeds.
Another quote confirming your understanding Bonita…forgiveness cannot be ‘accepted’ by one who has not forgiven those others of all ills toward us (whether true or false, real or perceived but not real at all)…the Lord’s Prayer includes that very specific teaching in fact. The forgiveness of God requires nothing to receive it…. except a mind purified by love sufficiently to be forgiving itself of others. So then, we cannot be forgiven (receive forgiveness) if we harbor resentment, revenge, anger, animosity, or disdain other children of God? And what about fears, anxieties, and/or self importance? The lack of humility prevents true contrition and the reception/reality of forgiveness I think….the lack “of the synchrony of divine and human forgiveness….”
(1638.4) 146:2.4 3. By opening the human end of the channel of the God-man communication, mortals make immediately available the ever-flowing stream of divine ministry to the creatures of the worlds. When man hears God’s spirit speak within the human heart, inherent in such an experience is the fact that God simultaneously hears that man’s prayer. Even the forgiveness of sin operates in this same unerring fashion. The Father in heaven has forgiven you even before you have thought to ask him, but such forgiveness is not available in your personal religious experience until such a time as you forgive your fellow men. God’s forgiveness in fact is not conditioned upon your forgiving your fellows, but in experience it is exactly so conditioned. And this fact of the synchrony of divine and human forgiveness was thus recognized and linked together in the prayer which Jesus taught the apostles.
And this fact of the synchrony of divine and human forgiveness was thus recognized and linked together in the prayer which Jesus taught the apostles. (146:2.4)
The synchrony between the divine level and the human level is the synchrony between potential reality and the actual reality.
115:3.16 The final dynamics of the cosmos have to do with the continual transfer of reality from potentiality to actuality.
The decision process which turns potential into actual is the very thing that increases one’s capacity for more potential.
115:3.16 Always will actuals be opening up new avenues of the realization of hitherto impossible potentials – every human decision not only actualizes a new reality in human experience but also opens up a new capacity for human growth.
For humans, synchrony is best summed up with this quote:
115:3.12 From a creature’s viewpoint, actuality is substance, potentiality is capacity. Actuality exists centermost and expands therefrom into peripheral infinity; potentiality comes inward from the infinity periphery and converges at the center of all things. Originality is that which first causes and then balances the dual motions of the cycle of reality metamorphosis from potentials to actuals and the potentializing of existing actuals.
Potentiality is capacity and the only way to increase capacity is to actualize reality. And if reality is defined as substance subject to the gravity grasps of the universe, such reality would require wise and loving decisions, decisions in tune with Adjuster guidance. That’s the way love works. Forgiveness is essentially a loving attitude of the mind, and once it is made actual, brought to life, it increases capacity or potential, and potential is from God, or the Adjuster, who is the Source of all love and forgiveness.
3:4.6 Mortal man cannot possibly know the infinitude of the heavenly Father. Finite mind cannot think through such an absolute truth or fact. But this same finite human being can actually feel – literally experience – the full and undiminished impact of such an infinite Father’s LOVE. Such a love can be truly experienced, albeit while quality of experience is unlimited, quantity of such an experience is strictly limited by the human capacity for spiritual receptivity and by the associated capacity to love the Father in return.
The synchronous cycle of divine and human forgiveness is summarized with this quote:
170:3.3-8 And the reception of the forgiveness of God by a kingdom believer involves a definite and actual experience and consists in the following four steps, the kingdom steps of inner righteousness:
- God’s forgiveness is made actually available and is personally experienced by man just in so far as he forgives his fellows.
- Man will not truly forgive his fellows unless he loves them as himself.
- To thus love your neighbor as yourself is the highest ethics.
- Moral conduct, true righteousness, becomes, then, the natural result of such love.
It therefore is evident that the true and inner religion of the kingdom unfailingly and increasingly tends to manifest itself in practical avenues of social service. Jesus taught a living religion that impelled its believers to engage in the doing of loving service. But Jesus did not put ethics in the place of religion. He taught religion as a cause and ethics as a result.
Bonita…forgiveness cannot be ‘accepted’ by one who has not forgiven those others of all ills toward us (whether true or false, real or perceived but not real at all)
I think what you’re saying is right, but I object to the word accepted. TUB says that forgiveness is not available as a personal religious experience until a person actualizes the potential by making a decision to forgive someone else and actually doing it. Probably all of us accept the intellectual idea of being forgiven by God, but to experience the ideal requires making it a reality, or an actual. Experience involves that substance referred to in quote 115:3.12 in my last post, which is actuality. There’s a lot written in TUB about ideas/ideals; actuals/potentials; quantity/quality; meanings/values; and they are all interrelated in the synchrony of the divine and human levels of reality.
The lack of humility prevents true contrition and the reception/reality of forgiveness I think
Do you think contrition is necessary for you to forgive other people? I mean, you don’t wait for your kid to say he’s sorry before you forgive him, do you? Personally, I don’t think having a forgiving attitude toward others requires me to be contrite about anything in particular. Doesn’t it have to do with fatherly love? I think all the quotes in TUB about having a contrite heart are from the Bible. Jesus used those biblical passages as a springboard for his teaching on the meaning of humility, which is about loyalty, a wholehearted faith-trust in God.
What I think is that faith-trust is the only way to keep open the . . . human end of the channel of the God-man communication . . . (146:2.4). The human end of the channel begins with the spirits of worship and wisdom. Humility is simply a prayerful attitude, isn’t it? Such an attitude takes contrition for granted. Jesus said that confession is the only thing required to make the conscience clear.
156:2.7 Said Jesus: “My disciples must not only cease to do evil but learn to do well; you must not only be cleansed from all conscious sin, but you must refuse to harbor even the feelings of guilt. If you confess your sins, they are forgiven; therefore must you maintain a conscience void of offense.“
I don’t think you can even activate the channel of God-man communication without putting self-importance aside, or at least make an attempt. This is the mechanism by which the atonement idea gets put aside for the attunement ideal Jesus was teaching. Atonement is not necessary to establish human-divine communication, but loyalty (attunement) is; and loyalty involves faith-trust, as I understand it.
Anyway, going off on a tangent here. Not sure I’m making a lot of sense either.
Here is more tangent.
“Probably all of us accept the intellectual idea of being forgiven by God, but to experience the ideal requires making it a reality, or an actual.”
This is an idea that I have always had great difficulty with.
“156:2.7 Said Jesus: “My disciples must not only cease to do evil but learn to do well; you must not only be cleansed from all conscious sin, but you must refuse to harbor even the feelings of guilt. If you confess your sins, they are forgiven; therefore must you maintain a conscience void of offense.“”
And I have great difficulty with this one too:
Whenever I find myself craving forgiveness, I fall into a guilt trap. For me, craving forgiveness implies I have recognized my sins but being forgiven for them is like looking for that shortcut, a mental exercise in futility, a worthless technique that gives hope to the idea of escaping the consequences of my actions. I do not want to be forgiven, I want to be judged, experience the consequences of my stupid mistakes.
I really believe in the idea of: “It is better to give than to recieve.” Even if it is painful. In the case of forgiveness this holds true for me. When given it has real meaning, when received it is meaningless, more like the opiod of spiritual growth.
Whenever I find myself craving forgiveness, I fall into a guilt trap. For me, craving forgiveness implies I have recognized my sins but being forgiven for them is like looking for that shortcut, a mental exercise in futility, a worthless technique that gives hope to the idea of escaping the consequences of my actions. I do not want to be forgiven, I want to be judged, experience the consequences of my stupid mistakes.
Yeah, I think the hardest thing to do is to get rid of the remnants of “self” that tend to taint our human attempts to love. It’s an evolution, to be sure.
100:2.4 Spirituality becomes at once the indicator of one’s nearness to God and the measure of one’s usefulness to fellow beings. Spirituality enhances the ability to discover beauty in things, recognize truth in meanings, and discover goodness in values. Spiritual development is determined by capacity therefor and is directly proportional to the elimination of the selfish qualities of love.
Whenever I find myself craving forgiveness, I fall into a guilt trap. For me, craving forgiveness implies I have recognized my sins but being forgiven for them is like looking for that shortcut, a mental exercise in futility, a worthless technique that gives hope to the idea of escaping the consequences of my actions. I do not want to be forgiven, I want to be judged, experience the consequences of my stupid mistakes.
Yeah, I think the hardest thing to do is to get rid of the remnants of “self” that tend to taint our human attempts to love. It’s an evolution, to be sure.
100:2.4 Spirituality becomes at once the indicator of one’s nearness to God and the measure of one’s usefulness to fellow beings. Spirituality enhances the ability to discover beauty in things, recognize truth in meanings, and discover goodness in values. Spiritual development is determined by capacity therefor and is directly proportional to the elimination of the selfish qualities of love.
Yes, “self” – always a battle.
Perhaps a more healthy way to deal with the idea of recieving forgiveness is that whoever is forgiving you is in reality expressing their love for you.
Perhaps a more healthy way to deal with the idea of recieving forgiveness is that whoever is forgiving you is in reality expressing their love for you.
If someone wants to forgive me for something I did, I think the most important thing to worry about is finding out what I did that needs forgiving and fix it. But, if someone is forgiving me for something I’m not guilty of, isn’t that the other person’s problem? Wouldn’t that other person need to be forgiven by me?
My kids can’t believe that I don’t accept man-made global warning. When they heard it they gasped as if their hearts stopped beating. It’s a concept so far out of their world-view they have no idea how to deal with it. They say they forgive me, as if I’ve sinned against them and need forgiveness . . . and that’s a really weird thing if you think about it. Really weird. Not belonging to the global warming religious cult is not a sin. Not belonging to the evangelical Christian cult is also not a sin. But some of those folks feel the need to forgive the apostates. Is that an act of love? I don’t think so. I think it’s a subtle form of self-righteousness, or at least a form of self-deception.
So . . . I don’t know if all so-called forgiving can be considered a form of love. It depends on the motivation. At its best and most sincere, yes I do think it is a form of love.
Interesting questions and discussion. I wonder if the more love, patience, kindness, and understanding in my perspective toward others presupposes the fact of my forgiveness of others? Do I harbor resentment, expectations, blame, etc. toward someone until they ‘seek’ forgiveness? If so, then whom is it that truly needs forgiveness? Me or the one I am supposedly forgiving? Forgiveness I have found is more a personal release of mind poison for me when I extend it to another – I am purging my own mind and heart of something undesirable and dysfunctional. And while I am eager to forgive when asked, which builds bridges and mends fences in relationships and often improves and deepens some relationships thereby, what is the point of offering forgiveness when it is not so requested? Does it need to be asked for to be factual, functional, and aspirational? Isn’t true forgiveness an auto-reflex that just springs forth from experience, wisdom, and the inner love response of the tadpole pilgrim?
As usual, more questions than answers!!
Jesus described forgiveness as a lack of resistance to the evil treatment of the personality and injury to feelings of personal dignity (141:3.8). In other words, if your habitual attitude toward others is one of forgiveness, evil treatment from others won’t automatically entice the clamoring self to retaliate. I suppose there would have to be a certain level of self-forgetfulness in such a person. [Just so you know, I personally haven’t reached this point. My clamoring self still tries its darnedest to get my attention when someone treats me ill.]
3:5.13 8. Is unselfishness – the spirit of self-forgetfulness – desirable? Then must mortal man live face to face with the incessant clamoring of an inescapable self for recognition and honor. Man could not dynamically choose the divine life if there were no self-life to forsake. Man could never lay saving hold on righteousness if there were no potential evil to exalt and differentiate the good by contrast.
But I think true forgiveness that borders on love goes beyond merely resisting the urge to hold a grudge or retaliate. If forgiveness is really loving, it will destroy evil, rehabilitate it and replace it with goodness. I think this next quote is a mind blower . . . Jesus is never satisfied with mere forgiveness . . . WOW!
188:5.2 Divine love does not merely forgive wrongs; it absorbs and actually destroys them. The forgiveness of love utterly transcends the forgiveness of mercy. Mercy sets the guilt of evil-doing to one side; but love destroys forever the sin and all weakness resulting therefrom. Jesus brought a new method of living to Urantia. He taught us not to resist evil but to find through him a goodness which effectually destroys evil. The forgiveness of Jesus is not condonation; it is salvation from condemnation. Salvation does not slight wrongs; it makes them right. True love does not compromise nor condone hate; it destroys it. The love of Jesus is never satisfied with mere forgiveness. The Master’s love implies rehabilitation, eternal survival. It is altogether proper to speak of salvation as redemption if you mean this eternal rehabilitation.
Thanks Bonita. Yes….the Master sets a high standard indeed! What an ideal for our aspiration. I like the maturity and reality perspective that simply does not take offense….the ability to respond without fear, anger, resentment, etc. But once we accomplish this reality, then still must we learn to destroy sin and evil with love response!! Good Grief….this could take awhile! A pure heart is only the first step toward a wise response and then a wiser one and then still a more wise one yet! = )
Reminds me of another parable….or form of that I think and one of the most puzzling challenges for me….oh wisdom and maturity where art thou?:
(1580.8) 140:8.13 He made it clear that indiscriminate kindness may be blamed for many social evils. The following day Jesus definitely instructed Judas that no apostolic funds were to be given out as alms except upon his request or upon the joint petition of two of the apostles. In all these matters it was the practice of Jesus always to say, “Be as wise as serpents but as harmless as doves.” It seemed to be his purpose in all social situations to teach patience, tolerance, and forgiveness.
(1584.2) 140:9.3 ….And finally he said: “Behold I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves; be you therefore as wise as serpents and as harmless as doves. But take heed, for your enemies will bring you up before their councils, while in their synagogues they will castigate you. Before governors and rulers you will be brought because you believe this gospel, and your very testimony shall be a witness for me to them. And when they lead you to judgment, be not anxious about what you shall say, for the spirit of my Father indwells you and will at such a time speak through you. Some of you will be put to death, and before you establish the kingdom on earth, you will be hated by many peoples because of this gospel; but fear not; I will be with you, and my spirit shall go before you into all the world. And my Father’s presence will abide with you while you go first to the Jews, then to the gentiles.”
“So . . . I don’t know if all so-called forgiving can be considered a form of love. It depends on the motivation. At its best and most sincere, yes I do think it is a form of love.”
At its best is where my mind was dwelling.
Another tangent: When we are praying we tend to do it with words – in our mind or out-loud at times, – we do much with words between us and our guardians as well. Words are important and our guardians among others likely know our language because of that.
Forgiveness “at its best” tends to happen without words.
Back to parables: I like the parable of the Pharisee and the Publican where Jesus teaches that self-righteousness cannot buy the favor of God, demonstrated that devotion to the Pharisee was a means of inducing self rightious inactivity and the assurance of false spiritual security: devotion to the publican was a means of stirring up his soul to the realization of the need for repentance, confession and the acceptance by faith of merciful forgiveness.
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