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Well, I’ve waited almost a week now for some input on the Master’s parables. It seems as though interest in this subject has waned. I don’t see any sense in putting any more work into it if no one wants to study it. Maybe later?
While we study the parable of the good shepherd, there is this from a later Paper which describes another element which Bonita brought up in her description of sheep…curious, wandering – and not too bright. This to help us understand God’s persistence and loyalty and love to all children….but especially those who are “lost”.
(1850.9) 169:1.2 “You have been admonished by the prophets from Samuel to John that you should seek for God — search for truth. Always have they said, ‘Seek the Lord while he may be found.’ And all such teaching should be taken to heart. But I have come to show you that, while you are seeking to find God, God is likewise seeking to find you. Many times have I told you the story of the good shepherd who left the ninety and nine sheep in the fold while he went forth searching for the one that was lost, and how, when he had found the straying sheep, he laid it over his shoulder and tenderly carried it back to the fold. And when the lost sheep had been restored to the fold, you remember that the good shepherd called in his friends and bade them rejoice with him over the finding of the sheep that had been lost. Again I say there is more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over the ninety and nine just persons who need no repentance. The fact that souls are lost only increases the interest of the heavenly Father. I have come to this world to do my Father’s bidding, and it has truly been said of the Son of Man that he is a friend of publicans and sinners.
Even the unwilling and unworthy are beneficiaries of the good shepherd’s care:
(2017.9) 188:5.1 The cross of Jesus portrays the full measure of the supreme devotion of the true shepherd for even the unworthy members of his flock. It forever places all relations between God and man upon the family basis. God is the Father; man is his son. Love, the love of a father for his son, becomes the central truth in the universe relations of Creator and creature — not the justice of a king which seeks satisfaction in the sufferings and punishment of the evil-doing subject.
(2018.1) 188:5.2 The cross forever shows that the attitude of Jesus toward sinners was neither condemnation nor condonation, but rather eternal and loving salvation. Jesus is truly a savior in the sense that his life and death do win men over to goodness and righteous survival. Jesus loves men so much that his love awakens the response of love in the human heart.
He tells Peter (and all believers I think) that we are to be good shepherds ourselves. I think especially regarding the “one” lost lamb of the 100. We are to call out in the voice of kindness, patience, tolerance, and love in service to even the most difficult lambs. Personally, I find such patience and persistence a complexity and conundrum compared to the warnings on wolves and offering pearls to the swine. It always seems to get back to wisdom….as innocent as a dove and yet wise as a serpent. Glad we are given sufficient time for such lessons as I have difficulty finding that balance sometimes. I am to discern the lost one from the predators and the fools from the foolish. God seeks all children and we are to serve in that seeking but wisdom must attend for effect. The voice of truth and love must come forth from our mouth or no sheep, lost or otherwise, will recognize it or respond to it….or not in the way we hoped.
. . . regarding the “one” lost lamb of the 100.
I devised a Halloween costume to wear to a UB party of a few years back. I was a sheep. The costume was kinda goofy but on it I marked it with #100 using a marking pen. Hahaha.
I was once lost and I didn’t even know it until I was found!
Bradly wrote: He tells Peter (and all believers I think) that we are to be good shepherds ourselves.Personally, I can’t find anything to suggest that humans are supposed to become Good Shepherds unless they are literal herdsman with actual animals to tend. There’s only one Good Shepherd and it’s always best if we let him do his own work. I think anyone trying to be the Good Shepherd will naturally be confused, since it’s not part of the human job description. We humans are the metaphorical sheep. It’s not possible to be both a sheep and a shepherd, which if it were, would be the blind leading the blind. Sheep have no sense of direction. As a sheep, it is our responsibility to recognize the voice of the Good Shepherd and follow him, that’s it. Sheep will follow one another, even off a cliff, so when one or two begin to follow the Good Shepherd, the rest will eventually join the flock, unless they’re defective in some way and cannot recognize the Good Shepherd’s voice. And, when a sheep is lost, it’s the job of the Good Shepherd to find him. All the rest of us sheep are merely expected to stay in the corral (kingdom) and bleat loudly (witness). That’s how I see it.
Perhaps not “Good Shepherd” in title, but Jesus makes reference at 165:2.6 about others becoming “true shepherds” and “undershepherds”, saying people have this capacity to the extent they are both “worthy leaders” and that they lead “flocks into green pastures and beside still waters”:
“You who would be the undershepherds of my Father’s flocks must not only be worthy leaders, but you must also feed the flock with good food; you are not true shepherds unless you lead your flocks into green pastures and beside still waters.”
Also this is interesting to come across in the next paragraph:
“I will declare that I am both the door to the Father’s sheepfold and at the same time the true shepherd of my Father’s flocks. Every shepherd who seeks to enter the fold without me shall fail, and the sheep will not hear his voice. I, with those who minister with me, am the door.”
I can’t say I’d noticed that before, that he says not just that he is “the door” to the sheepfold but also “those who minister with me” are the door. 165:2.7
can’t say I’d noticed that before, that he says not just that he is “the door” to the sheepfold but also “those who minister with me” are the door. 165:2.7
Awesome find tas!
tas wrote: I can’t say I’d noticed that before, that he says not just that he is “the door” to the sheepfold but also “those who minister with me” are the door. 165:2.7We already discussed this on the previous page. Those who minister with Jesus (Spirit of Truth) are the Holy Spirit and the Thought Adjuster. Sheep cannot be the door. They go through the door. It is a reference to the attitude of mind which becomes the gateway to the soul.
tas wrote: Perhaps not “Good Shepherd” in title, but Jesus makes reference at 165:2.6 about others becoming “true shepherds” and “undershepherds”, saying people have this capacity to the extent they are both “worthy leaders” and that they lead “flocks into green pastures and beside still waters”The undershepherds are the apostles, appointed and ordained by Jesus. Personally, when I come across someone who thinks he/she is an undershepherd ordained by Jesus, I walk the other way.
Worthy leaders are servants, which means they behave as sheep. They know they are sheep and never try to be anything other than sheep. They are totally loyal, wholeheartedly sincere sheep (same as the tadpole analogy). They hear the voice of their true shepherd and follow him, knowing that others will follow, so on and so on. It is the Way, the path of spirit gravity. And this is how Jesus becomes “lifted up” and draws all men to himself, the Good Shepherd. He is the Shepherd and the Door or WAY.
174:5.13 “And now I declare to you that I, if I be lifted up on earth and in your lives, will draw all men to myself and into the fellowship of my Father.”
180:3.7 When Jesus heard Thomas, he answered: “Thomas, I am the way, the truth, and the life. No man goes to the Father except through me. All who find the Father, first find me. If you know me, you know the way to the Father. And you do know me, for you have lived with me and you now see me.”
tas wrote: I can’t say I’d noticed that before, that he says not just that he is “the door” to the sheepfold but also “those who minister with me” are the door. 165:2.7We already discussed this on the previous page. Those who minister with Jesus (Spirit of Truth) are the Holy Spirit and the Thought Adjuster. Sheep cannot be the door. They go through the door. It is a reference to the attitude of mind which becomes the gateway to the soul.
tas wrote: Perhaps not “Good Shepherd” in title, but Jesus makes reference at 165:2.6 about others becoming “true shepherds” and “undershepherds”, saying people have this capacity to the extent they are both “worthy leaders” and that they lead “flocks into green pastures and beside still waters”The undershepherds are the apostles, appointed and ordained by Jesus. Personally, when I come across someone who thinks he/she is an undershepherd ordained by Jesus, I walk the other way.
Ah, I do see now that it was discussed by Teresa, Bradly and yourself, I haven’t followed the posts here much on the site the past 2 months. I will just add my voice as one who thinks he was speaking of undershepherds and “those who minister with him” as being appeals directed to the audience of the hundred religious leaders in his presence, of which the apostles were only within range of hearing of it and not really the main audience it seems.
“A company of over three hundred Jerusalemites, Pharisees and others, followed Jesus north to Pella when he hastened away from the jurisdiction of the Jewish rulers at the ending of the feast of the dedication; and it was in the presence of these Jewish teachers and leaders, as well as in the hearing of the twelve apostles, that Jesus preached the sermon on the “Good Shepherd.” After half an hour of informal discussion, speaking to a group of about one hundred, Jesus said…” 165:2.1
My read on section 165:2 as a whole is he was asking these listeners — who already had stature in their society to think of themselves as leaders — to aspire to be true shepherds, not from the stature they had but by being servants, by feeding the flock and leading them to good waters. If he was directing his comments only to the apostles…. his teachings on this occasion didn’t hit the mark quite as well.
“When they heard these words, his apostles were confused” 165:2.11
But of the rest of the audience of Jewish teachers and leaders:
“On the morrow about half of these Jewish teachers professed belief in Jesus, and the other half in dismay returned to Jerusalem and their homes.” 165:2.12
I certainly agree that the main thrust of the quotes posted is that God, and now the Master’s Spirit, constantly seeks out the “lost”, even those unwilling to be found and those some might not think worthy of saving. And the mercy ministry is for the each within the all, or flock. Once we begin to extend from a central analogy, things begin to become stretched into distortions.
However, there are several quotes where both “good” and “false” shepherds are spoken of. And I find it a little odd that Peter was made the shepherd of the flock of believers and no such role lived beyond the apostles in any form. I agree there is no mortal mouth piece for God nor any high in authority as the Master shepherd was and remains. Is a second miler analogous to a good shepherd in a way? Are we not to give testimony of the spirit and do not servant leaders lead as servants? Do we minister to the sick, lonely, lost, confused, and frightened? Sheep do not do this for one another.
I have far more questions than convictions in this matter…but we are here to study after all. I should have asked about the topic rather than make a claim of understanding as such a claim should have been a confusion of ponderment.
I’m under the impression that Jesus’ was teaching to his entire universe, all of his creatures.
165:2.9 “But I have many other sheep not of this fold, and these words are true not only of this world. These other sheep also hear and know my voice, and I have promised the Father that they shall all be brought into one fold, one brotherhood of the sons of God. And then shall you all know the voice of one shepherd, the true shepherd, and shall all acknowledge the fatherhood of God.
As to the issue of undershepherds, I think the fact that Jesus says “would be”, means that the job of undershepherd is earned. Surely Jesus was in the process of training his apostles with the goal of having them earn the privilege of being his undershepherds after his ascension. I suppose there are other ways to interpret the meaning of that term, but we don’t have a lot to go on. It’s only mentioned once. One thing we know is that an undershepherd is a spiritual leader and a true spiritual leader is a servant (171:06).
Believing Jesus’ teachings is not necessarily synonymous with being an undershepherd/ leader/servant; belief is not faith. Just because some of the Jewish teachers professed belief in Jesus doesn’t mean they suddenly became undershepherds.
Bradly wrote: And I find it a little odd that Peter was made the shepherd of the flock of believers and no such role lived beyond the apostles in any form.So do you believe in apostolic succession then? I don’t. Jesus told Peter to be a good and true shepherd to the flock. He also said, in the next paragraph, to be an example and inspiration to his fellow shepherds (192:2.4-5). I interpret this to mean the group of apostles whom Jesus ordained to spread the gospel immediately after his death; this is his group of undershepherds. Peter was just one of several.
I do think that there have been, and will, be spiritual leaders here on earth. But if you look at the list in the UB, they are truly few and far between. One of the problems with the current generation of UB readers, as I see it, is that everyone thinks he/she is an apostle, and therefore an undershepherd, with the responsibility of leading the flock of UB’ers. And what a mess that has proven to be! It would be better to be a sheep and follow the True Shepherd, in my opinion.
Bradly wrote: Is a second miler analogous to a good shepherd in a way?A second miler is a servant, a lowly sheep following the true Shepherd. If you wish to use the words servant and shepherd interchangeably, I think you leave yourself open to the possibility of confusion. The phrase “in a way,” can be used to explain away a lot of things. One could stretch their imagination to make everything analogous in some kind of “way”.
Bradly wrote: Do we minister to the sick, lonely, lost, confused, and frightened? Sheep do not do this for one another.I’m not suggesting that we humans are literal sheep, mere stupid animals. It’s a metaphor for creatures who require a pilot light in order to be lead along the spiritual path. As sheep, we are all lead in different ways according to our capacities and abilities, but always along the road of spiritual gravity, the way to eternal life. Some are lead to attend to the sick, the lonely and the frightened. But I think it’s risky to to think that we alone can lead the lost and confused. It is the light within us that does the leading. The fact that we are willing to follow the light ourselves serves as an example and inspiration, just as Jesus instructed Peter to do as one of his undershepherds.
But we have not been ordained by Jesus to be undershepherds. We do all of the work of the kingdom as sheep and should not concern ourselves with who is a leader, who is a shepherd, who is this, that, or the other thing. We’re all sheep and we are supposed to allow Jesus to do his own work as the Spirit of Truth, the True Shepherd. When we minister to the sick, lonely, lost, confused and frightened, we are merely allowing Jesus to work through us. It is HE who does the work of shepherding; we are merely sheep who say, “it is my will that your will be done.”
194:3.1 The Creator Son, in the flesh, revealed God to men; the Spirit of Truth, in the heart, reveals the Creator Son to men. When man yields the “fruits of the spirit” in his life, he is simply showing forth the traits which the Master manifested in his own earthly life. When Jesus was on earth, he lived his life as one personality — Jesus of Nazareth. As the indwelling spirit of the “new teacher,” the Master has, since Pentecost, been able to live his life anew in the experience of every truth-taught believer.
Bradly wrote: I have far more questions than convictions in this matter…but we are here to study after all.Unfortunately I do have convictions, which really annoys people, I think. But believe it or not, I’m here to study as well. I like to read what other people are thinking, even though I frequently disagree. It’s obvious that people don’t like it when others disagree with them though. I’m wondering if it’s wrong to express disagreement on a forum? Is it better to just go along and gleefully post quotes without thinking about them openly? I’m under the impression that is what most people desire . . . to just read and ponder pleasant thoughts, hoping to be inspired in some “way”. If so, I think it’s time for me to retire.Bonita,
Please don’t retire. Reading your last paragraph here, I think I may understand your expression, but would you consider that people need time to absorb concepts? And, unless one is available each and every day to stay current, there is needed this time separation to assess and consider opinions from several participants. At least, for my experience, I know this time feature is needed. Some folks cannot easily take comments from others; perhaps that is their problem. Others can take it easier and with a gracious attraction. To read and ponder truly is what some desire! Some people will remain quiet listeners even in small group discussions and others are vivacious talkers.
I am one of those who appreciates your take on the UB and I want to read what you say! We can ask, ‘Who among us is perfect?”
Offered with kind intention.
MK
Unfortunately I do have convictions, which really annoys people, I think. But believe it or not, I’m here to study as well. I like to read what other people are thinking, even though I frequently disagree. It’s obvious that people don’t like it when others disagree with them though. I’m wondering if it’s wrong to express disagreement on a forum? Is it better to just go along and gleefully post quotes without thinking about them openly? I’m under the impression that is what most people desire . . . to just read and ponder pleasant thoughts, hoping to be inspired in some “way”. If so, I think it’s time for me to retire.
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Makes me think about weather it is possible to post informative opinions. When I get the feeling that someone is trying to change the way I think then I tune out. My thinking changes based on informative opinions and my personal reasoning, not an effort to change thinking if that makes any sense. Thats where I draw the line anyway.
Again, is it possible to post a purely informative opinion. I wonder. Purely informative is likley analogous to posting UB quotes.
Kind of gets philosophical dont it.
Regardless, dont retire.
nelsong wrote: Makes me think about weather it is possible to post informative opinions.That would be an essay, wouldn’t it? I’ve thought of doing that – just posting what I think along with all the quotes to back it up. But how many people read essays? Usually they’re long and tedious. If people don’t have time to read, I would think that essays are out.
And, I can tell you that I personally skip over posts that are just a long list of quotes. I can’t think of anything more boring than that. I like to know what people think and how they think. I’ve already read the book dozens of times, but I haven’t read each person’s ideas. People’s thoughts are exciting . . . (unless they’re a troll).
I think most readers are uncomfortable with other people’s thoughts; either that, or they’re simply not interested in them. And that’s where I’m coming down on this. People tune out thoughts that don’t conform in some way to their own . . . like-minded thinkers . . . which brings me back to the sheep thing. We’re all sheep and are happiest when we’re all together grazing along the still waters.
Mark Kurtz wrote: Reading your last paragraph here, I think I may understand your expression, but would you consider that people need time to absorb concepts?You mean something like three weeks or more? I’ve been waiting three weeks to continue this thread. I don’t know about you, but after three weeks, I’ve more or less moved on. Mark, I do appreciate your comments, but I think those who only post quotes are the winners here. I just can’t think of anything more blasé than that though. I can’t do it, and I don’t think essays will ever get read. Without discussion, there’s nothing to do here.
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