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Hello everyone (and in particular Bonita), On the one hand, I am always glad to read quotes from the Urantia book, even if they prove my ideas to be wrong – I learn much from comparing and contrasting ideas. From the quotes Bonita provided, it seems like the Urantia book clearly does NOT support the idea of human reincarnation. But I must confess that ideas I posted in my previous post were NOT originally my ideas – ironically, those ideas about how people could be misinterpreting real phenomena as reincarnation was previously posted by Dean White, who belongs to the Urantia Book Fellowship and who has a very good article titled, “Some Thoughts On Reincarnation” which is among the first few weblinks that appears on Google when I type the search words “Urantia” & “Reincarnation”. So perhaps everyone on this forum should read what he wrote before being so easily tempted to dismiss reincarnation as complete nonsense.
I have read Dean White’s opinion piece several times and that’s all it is, opinion. It is not a statement of the position of the Urantia Book Community; moreover, it contains several errors of logic.
Agree…just read White’s piece again too. Merely a search to justify and explain pet preconceptions. Many are uncomfortable with uncertainties and unknowns and also with anything that contradicts prior beliefs.
There are also readers who will put you in touch with dead relatives, live celestials, and even Gabriel or God. Whatever. Spirit names anyone?
Reincarnation is easily and has already been sourced in history by the UB. It is a distortion of the evolutionary perfecting process in the morontial adventure and education. Don’t agree? Fine…don’t agree. No sweat. Believe what you will. But reaping what we sow or karma is its own distinct teaching that does not depend on the belief of reincarnation.
Many who believe in pre-existence and so called memories of prior lives embrace the fictions of reincarnation to explain that belief. It is a house of cards…false conclusions and solutions based on false premise and presumptions .
But any belief in evolutionary perfecting by experiential wisdom attainment beyond this brief mortal life is more accurate than the Christian belief in perfection by death alone. How silly is that?
In time and space reality, persons and societies and planetary populations and celestials and universes and even Deity is perfecting and completing the actualization of potential. How very Zen!!
All bring prejudices and preconceptions to the UB. How tightly will we grip them and justify our beliefs? The UB teaches that ignorance and prejudice are the greatest obstacles to personal growth.
I mentioned in one of my earlier posts that Edgar Cayce had a somewhat different concept of reincarnation than what is traditionally believed by Hindus and Buddhists, but it seemed like the Urantia book only addresses the traditional views. That is odd, for the Edgar Cayce readings had been documented several years before the Urantia book was produced.
The cycle of destruction and rebirth began as part of a dualistic teleology which has very ancient roots in evolutionary religion, and was probably infuenced by primitive nature worship. Unfortunately it has staying power because of the Rebellion which fostered beliefs in the duality of good and evil, heaven and hell, death and rebirth.
The reason why Edgar Cayce’s definition of reincarnation is not discussed is because Edgar Cayce is a prime example of spiritualism or medianship, practices which TUB does not approve of and refers to as “sordid performances”. In fact, the works of the “Sleeping Prophet” are in direct contrast to the material produced by the “Sleeping Subject”. It seems to me that TUB is an example of everything Cayce is not, and perhaps for a reason.
And lest you think I’m not well versed in Cayce, I was raised on him, my mother being an avid aficionado. My father almost left her when she attempted to move us all to North Carolina before the end of the world. She very much wanted to be just like Cayce and worked hard at clairvoyancy. When she failed, she tried very hard to be just like Jeane Dickson, and when she failed she tried very hard to be just like Loretta Lynn. She actually made some decent headway in that direction, but eventually failed too. Before she died she was thrown out of many Catholic churches for attempting to levitate during holy communion. It’s hard for me take any of “the mind at mischief” seriously.
Another example of unclear/unknown words is the term “midwayers” – it would be nice to know exactly who or what they are – not just a definition, but also a comparable word or concept we are more familiar with to further clarify. At this point, I think midwayers are the elemental beings/nature spirits within the Devic Kingdom, like elves, fairies, etc. I feel like those who are whole-heartedly promoting the Urantia book would reach more people if connections like that were made.
I think the early pre-Islamic Arabian myths concerning the jinn come closest. The jinn are created neither good nor evil; they are invisible supernatural beings created out of flame, whereas angels are created out of light and humans are created out of dust. The jinn are creatures living midway between “the dust” and “the light”. They can behave in either good or evil ways and can meddle in human affairs. They also can be “saved” and go to Paradise like humans.
Since many of us appreciate direct quotes from the Urantia book, I will now quote from it, specifically from Paper 48, Chapter 2, Verse 46: “All morontia transition realms are accessible alike to material and spirit beings. As morontia progressors YOU WILL REMAIN IN FULL CONTACT WITH THE MATERIAL WORLD AND WITH MATERIAL PERSONALITIES, while you will increasingly discern and fraternize with spirit beings…” I would love to hear Bonita’s (and anyone else’s) explanation of that portion of the Urantia book, especially the part I emphasized which seems to contradict what the Urantia book clearly says in the other parts that Bonita recently quoted.
Quote 48:2.46 is referring to contact with decidedly material things and beings existing on the morontia worlds. It is not referring to things and beings remaining on nativity worlds. The morontia spheres range from material to spiritual. Here’s the full quote in question along with a sister quote:
48:2.26 All morontia transition realms are accessible alike to material and spirit beings. As morontia progressors you will remain in full contact with the material world and with material personalities, while you will increasingly discern and fraternize with spirit beings; and by the time of departure from the morontia regime, you will have seen all orders of spirits with the exception of a few of the higher types, such as Solitary Messengers.
44:0.18 There is also here with me a Mighty Messenger from Uversa, an ascendant Adjuster-fused, onetime mortal being, and he perceives you as you are, and at the same time he visualizes the Solitary Messenger, the supernaphim, and other celestial beings present. Never in your long ascendancy will you lose the power to recognize your associates of former existences. Always, as you ascend inward in the scale of life, will you retain the ability to recognize and fraternize with the fellow beings of your previous and lower levels of experience. Each new translation or resurrection will add one more group of spirit beings to your vision range without in the least depriving you of the ability to recognize your friends and fellows of former estates.
Here are additional quotes describing the range of substance and beings on the mansion worlds where humans are still material beings in a material body of morontia substance. Morontia substance consists of both physical (material) and spiritual reality but in varying proportions depending on one’s level of ascent. The mansion world experience begins as primarily material.
48:2.22 While the basic morontia forms of life and matter are identical from the first mansion world to the last universe transition sphere, there is a functional progression which gradually extends from the material to the spiritual. Your adaptation to this basically uniform but successively advancing and spiritizing creation is effected by this selective re-keying. Such an adjustment in the mechanism of personality is tantamount to a new creation, notwithstanding that you retain the same morontia form.
47:9.5 You will greatly enjoy your progress through the seven dematerializing worlds; they are really demortalizing spheres. You are mostly human on the first mansion world, just a mortal being minus a material body, a human mind housed in a morontia form — a material body of the morontia world but not a mortal house of flesh and blood. You really pass from the mortal state to the immortal status at the time of Adjuster fusion, and by the time you have finished the Jerusem career, you will be full-fledged morontians.
0:5.12 Morontia is a term designating a vast level intervening between the material and the spiritual. It may designate personal or impersonal realities, living or nonliving energies. The warp of morontia is spiritual; its woof is physical.
There is something odd about such criticism in the Urantia book regarding reincarnation. For thousands of years, reincarnation has been taught as the natural result of reaping (in a different lifetime) what a person had sown in a prior lifetime. During that time, any of the Divine beings could have made attempts to correct that so-called “error” before it became so widespread. Instead, they wait until the last century to set the record straight and then virtually ridicule those who believed such “nonsense” for thousands of years. By the way, does anyone else think that is an un-empathic response?!
But you have evidence from the quotes I provided that Jesus himself tried to correct these erroneous ideas 2000 years ago.
The word “empathy” and its derivatives do not appear in TUB. Perhaps it’s because the original meaning has nothing to do with reality. Projecting one’s personality into another personality’s suffering is a conjured psychological state; it is not the preferred spiritual state of altruistic understanding which requires actually getting to know another person in depth rather than an exercise of cognitive projection of emotion sharing.
empathy (n.) 1908, modeled on German Einfühlung (from ein “in” + Fühlung “feeling”), which was coined 1858 by German philosopher Rudolf Lotze (1817-1881) as a translation of Greek empatheia “passion, state of emotion,” from assimilated form of en “in” (see en- (2)) + pathos “feeling” (from PIE root *kwent(h)- “to suffer”). A term from a theory of art appreciation that maintains appreciation depends on the viewer’s ability to project his personality into the viewed object.
At the time TUB was being received as a revelation the word empathy meant “to enliven an object, or project one’s own imagined feelings onto the world.” (see https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2015/10/a-short-history-of-empathy/409912/) Since this self-centered psychological state is not a desired one, it is no wonder to me that it was never mentioned. Speaking of empathy, I have often heard that is one of the main reasons why human reincarnate, for it’s one thing to say you are empathetic, but another thing to develop true empathy after walking in another person’s shoes, as the saying goes. How could we possibly develop empathy for our fellow humans by only living one very brief, physical life on Earth?!
The goal is altruism, not empathy. All that is needed for that is to experience situations of social inequality.
3:5.7 2. Is altruism — service of one’s fellows — desirable? Then must life experience provide for encountering situations of social inequality.
The best place to learn altruism is in the family.
84:7.28 Marriage, with children and consequent family life, is stimulative of the highest potentials in human nature and simultaneously provides the ideal avenue for the expression of these quickened attributes of mortal personality. The family provides for the biologic perpetuation of the human species. The home is the natural social arena wherein the ethics of blood brotherhood may be grasped by the growing children. The family is the fundamental unit of fraternity in which parents and children learn those lessons of patience, altruism, tolerance, and forbearance which are so essential to the realization of brotherhood among all men.
In fact, altruism is not a natural human characteristic, it is Adjuster derived.
103:5.1 The early evolutionary mind gives origin to a feeling of social duty and moral obligation derived chiefly from emotional fear. The more positive urge of social service and the idealism of altruism are derived from the direct impulse of the divine spirit indwelling the human mind.
Likewise, I have also heard that reincarnation was similar to the idea of “practice makes perfect”. Why would we be allowed to enter a very long morontia life/career without having gained solid maturity and perspective in the physical life that we so quickly leave behind?! From what is in the Urantia book, most of us will certainly NOT move that quickly from one mansion world into the next. Logically, there should be similar patterns in both the physical realm and the mansion worlds regarding how we make progress.
Yes, repeated experiences which develop a habitual spiritual response in decision making is certainly how we humans traverse the seven psychic circles. Most of us never complete all seven. We die and resurrect on the mansion worlds exactly where we leave off here on earth. There we continue the ever repeating cycles of learning, habituating spiritual responses and decision making until we become less material and more spiritual in character. No magic wand can make any of this happen in an instant, but the training ground you desire so much is not provided by another round on earth, but on the morontia level where our morontia souls become our new identity. If the adjutant mind ministry has delivered a mind to the point of entering the seventh psychic circle, regardless of when the associated personality meets it’s earthly demise, it will continue its work on mansonia for psychic circle progress with the same soul it has been able to co-create here on earth.
48:0.2 The morontia life, extending as it does over the various stages of the local universe career, is the only possible approach whereby material mortals could attain the threshold of the spirit world. What magic could death, the natural dissolution of the material body, hold that such a simple step should instantly transform the mortal and material mind into an immortal and perfected spirit? Such beliefs are but ignorant superstitions and pleasing fables.
47:3.1 On the mansion worlds the resurrected mortal survivors resume their lives just where they left off when overtaken by death. When you go from Urantia to the first mansion world, you will notice considerable change, but if you had come from a more normal and progressive sphere of time, you would hardly notice the difference except for the fact that you were in possession of a different body; the tabernacle of flesh and blood has been left behind on the world of nativity.
And honestly, where is there justice if people like Hitler can cause such death and destruction, then commit suicide, then wake up in the afterlife to be asked (along with so many humans who lived far better lives) if he is willing to “make progress” or just become “non-existent”?!
Justice is always a group decision. We humans have no full concept of divine justice which is always tempered by mercy. Every personality has ample mercy credits to assure salvation if it is desired. Since none of us know the true longings of Hitler’s soul, we cannot adequately judge the man. If anyone has a flicker of faith he or she is given an opportunity for rehabilitation. Such things are determined by many groups of judges, but if there is even the slightest question, the individual is given the benefit of the doubt and offered continued life on a probationary basis.
10:6.18 Justice is the collective thought of righteousness; mercy is its personal expression. Mercy is the attitude of love; precision characterizes the operation of law; divine judgment is the soul of fairness, ever conforming to the justice of the Trinity, ever fulfilling the divine love of God. When fully perceived and completely understood, the righteous justice of the Trinity and the merciful love of the Universal Father are coincident. But man has no such full understanding of divine justice. Thus in the Trinity, as man would view it, the personalities of Father, Son, and Spirit are adjusted to co-ordinate ministry of love and law in the experiential universes of time.
2:3.3 Cessation of existence is usually decreed at the dispensational or epochal adjudication of the realm or realms. On a world such as Urantia it comes at the end of a planetary dispensation. Cessation of existence can be decreed at such times by co-ordinate action of all tribunals of jurisdiction, extending from the planetary council up through the courts of the Creator Son to the tribunals of the Ancients of Days. The mandate of dissolution originates in the higher courts of the superuniverse following an unbroken confirmation of the indictment originating on the sphere of the wrongdoer’s residence; and then, when sentence of extinction has been confirmed on high, the execution is by the direct act of those judges residential on, and operating from, the headquarters of the superuniverse.
39:1.8 The seraphic court advisers serve extensively as defenders of mortals. Not that there ever exists any disposition to be unfair to the lowly creatures of the realms, but while justice demands the adjudication of every default in the climb towards divine perfection, mercy requires that every such misstep be fairly adjudged in accordance with the creature nature and the divine purpose. These angels are the exponents and exemplification of the element of mercy inherent in divine justice — of fairness based on the knowledge of the underlying facts of personal motives and racial tendencies.
174:1.3 Divine forgiveness is inevitable; it is inherent and inalienable in God’s infinite understanding, in his perfect knowledge of all that concerns the mistaken judgment and erroneous choosing of the child. Divine justice is so eternally fair that it unfailingly embodies understanding mercy.
155:6.17 Now, mistake not, my Father will ever respond to the faintest flicker of faith.
112:5.7 If ever there is doubt as to the advisability of advancing a human identity to the mansion worlds, the universe governments invariably rule in the personal interests of that individual; they unhesitatingly advance such a soul to the status of a transitional being, while they continue their observations of the emerging morontia intent and spiritual purpose. Thus divine justice is certain of achievement, and divine mercy is accorded further opportunity for extending its ministry.
04:2.5 For example: The Master, when on earth, admonished his followers that justice is never a personal act; it is always a group function. Neither do the Gods, as persons, administer justice. But they perform this very function as a collective whole, as the Paradise Trinity.
28:6.5 2. The Memory of Mercy. These are the actual, full and replete, living records of the mercy which has been extended to individuals and races by the tender ministrations of the instrumentalities of the Infinite Spirit in the mission of adapting the justice of righteousness to the status of the realms, as disclosed by the portrayals of the Significance of Origins. The Memory of Mercy discloses the moral debt of the children of mercy — their spiritual liabilities — to be set down against their assets of the saving provision established by the Sons of God. In revealing the Father’s pre-existent mercy, the Sons of God establish the necessary credit to insure the survival of all. And then, in accordance with the findings of the Significance of Origins, a mercy credit is established for the survival of each rational creature, a credit of lavish proportions and one of sufficient grace to insure the survival of every soul who really desires divine citizenship.
Bonita – thanks for such a clear and helpful exploration of all this.
Also, that Arabian midwayer backstory, {dust / flame / light} … {human / jinn / angel} !
Nigel
Thanks to Michael (Urantia4Me) for the links and acknowledging my post which mentioned some other metaphysical books. In general, TUB-folks are not into any kind of compare-and-contrast of unofficial revelations (lower-case R) Ubook folks don’t need any other books and can be dismissive of that stuff (the folks at the Foundation forum are especially hostile and don’t seem to get many new folks)
I do appreciate the link to Swedenborg and I’m glad I read some of those, as I’d always been troubled by his idea of “hell” –but it turns-out he’s not talking punishment but rather a “gravitating” of materialist folks towards their own inclinations. The U-book paints a pretty clean, sterile picture of the mansion worlds but I can see myself finding the slums and back-alleys and hanging-out with the smokers. (Lol)
I’ve only read the first couple of books by Gary Renard and I do think that the forgiveness taught in A Course In Miracles (using the workbook of 365 lessons) does help to foster a more Jesus-like mindset. At one time there were some folks who thought the Urantia book was the truth and A Course In Miracles was the practice. I totally agree with the authors of TUB that its best that Urantians not believe in endless reincarnation or in the idea of “dissolving” back into god. (even though they admit some psychological value to “Eastern” thought. )
There’s also plenty of disclaimers and “wiggle room” in The Urantia book, so I won’t be too surprised if it turns out the some folks do go back to Urantia or other inhabited planets to learn more lessons (and I think it would be the angels giving us a whitewash, not The Forum or Dr. Sadler)
I am hoping to do a post about The Spheres Of Light And Life, and the idea of ‘ascension’
Apparently Mrs_Columbo posted over 15 hours ago and it still does not appear in the thread. What is going on?? Can someone address this problem please?
Can someone address this problem please?
Done. See previous page (page 12). The post was sent to the spam folder, along with one on 3 Sept by Urantia4me.
In general, TUB-folks are not into any kind of compare-and-contrast of unofficial revelations (lower-case R) Ubook folks don’t need any other books and can be dismissive of that stuff (the folks at the Foundation forum are especially hostile and don’t seem to get many new folks)
Is that really true? I’ve read most of the books mentioned and have individually done a lot of comparing and contrasting, so I’m amenable to doing it publicly if there is interest. In fact, in one of the past incarnations of this forum we did a rather involved thread on quotes from other sources with comparable quotes from TUB. It was never taken down, so I think it’s okay.
Hello everyone – I’m back from my trip, and I just read the recent posts – you all give so many good things to consider! Let me work backwards…You are right, Bonita, about Carl Jung describing the collective UNconscious of humanity as it relates to archetypes; forgive me for sometimes mixing and matching ideas that I have read/heard, and then unintentionally using terms that are not as accurate in a strict sense, but still capture the general ideas behind the main points that I attempt to make. And thank you Bradly for not only your comments but also the weblink – one of the first 2 quotes regarding the word reincarnation was what I had read, though the texts does not say word for word “not exactly reincarnation” ; again, I refer back to my aforementioned comment to Bonita, who always provides good, relevant quotes from TUB. You do also Bradly, but you write at such a level that I sometimes need to re-read your replies And Andre still understands me very well; likewise, even though I have only read a fraction of TUB, it is most definitely a signpost for all of us to factor into our personal worldviews. One thing that you all have made me realize is that we each are approaching this subject from not only somewhat different viewpoints, but we are also using different terminology based on our different viewpoints, which is making it a bit of a challenge for us, similar to how language barriers can cause unnecessary friction. For example, what if life in the Astral realm (as described in good metaphysical books) is actually the same as the first 7-8 Mansion Worlds which are part of Morontia Life (as described by TUB)?! And what if life at the Quantum level (as described by Quantum physicists) is actually the same as BOTH, meaning we are all trying to describe the same “elephant” using the terminology we are most familiar with, especially with regard to the topic of (potential versus actual) “simultaneous realities”?! After I read the chapter on Morontia Life, I hope to be better able to answer that last “what if” question. To me, considering that as a real possibility/probability could then help to explain why so many people MAY have been misinterpreting “something real” as reincarnation. At best, even real psychics, mediums, and mystics have only been seeing glimpses of “the afterlife”, and without seeing the big picture, it could be easy for them to misinterpret “simultaneous realities” (which MAY be a result of the natural laws that constitute Astral/Quantum/Morontia Life) as “sequential reincarnation” occurring on Earth/Urantia. As a related analogy, on Earth, we hear/learn that we humans are to change and adapt to our environment; in the afterlife, I have heard/learned that our thoughts and emotions immediately influence our environment to change and adapt to us humans – do you see the difference?! And isn’t that greater reality a little bit like how our physical brains “correct” the upside-down images that come into our eyes into right-side up images?! Ok, enough pondering by me for tonite. Looking forward to all of your replies
Michael
Awesome. Thanks moderator-1 for finding this missing post that I mistakenly told Michael disappeared because of the problem with auto log-out. Duh. I forgot about the spam folder which is a real pain in the butt, if you ask me. But you didn’t.
Anyway, I agree that terminology overlaps and being too dogmatically literal can be a roadblock. Learning the TUB lingo makes it much easier to converse with TUB readers, but making a fetish out of the words restricts freedom of thought. On the other hand, trying to replace TUB vocabulary with something else can be confusing and misleading. I myself have pitched a fit over the introduction of new terminology to describe information in TUB, like “Spirit of Fact”, which I think muddles the meaning of what the revelators are attempting to present.
This problem of calling the same thing by different names happens all the time. For instance different cultures throughout the ages have had different names for the soul and associated Spirit.
111:0.2 The concept of a soul and of an indwelling spirit is not new to Urantia; it has frequently appeared in the various systems of planetary beliefs. Many of the Oriental as well as some of the Occidental faiths have perceived that man is divine in heritage as well as human in inheritance. The feeling of the inner presence in addition to the external omnipresence of Deity has long formed a part of many Urantian religions. Men have long believed that there is something growing within the human nature, something vital that is destined to endure beyond the short span of temporal life.
111:0.4 In the conception of the atman the Hindu teachers really approximated an appreciation of the nature and presence of the Adjuster, but they failed to distinguish the copresence of the evolving and potentially immortal soul. The Chinese, however, recognized two aspects of a human being, the yang and the yin, the soul and the spirit. The Egyptians and many African tribes also believed in two factors, the ka and the ba; the soul was not usually believed to be pre-existent, only the spirit.
111:0.7 Every race of evolving Urantia mortals has a word equivalent to the concept of soul. Many primitive peoples believed the soul looked out upon the world through human eyes; therefore did they so cravenly fear the malevolence of the evil eye. They have long believed that “the spirit of man is the lamp of the Lord.” The Rig-Veda says: “My mind speaks to my heart.”
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