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Thanks to all who replied, including the Moderator, who found that post that I thought was lost. I purposely waited to see if it would ever show up again. Bravo Bonita – you have VERY good knowledge of TUB, and it seems Bradly does also. And welcome Mrs. Columbo to the dialog; I figured you (along with Andre) would appreciate my background, and you are welcome regarding my recommendation of the Swedenborg material. In case you were curious, these are some of my favorite “other sources” in addition to The Urantia Book, which I still feel is a “must-read”: the 3 Ramala books, starting with The Revelation of Ramala; any of Dolores Cannon’s books, for she has taken hypnosis about as far as one can take it; all 3 of Robert Monroe’s books in which he documented his out of body journeys; the collection of channeled Grail Message lectures; and of course the 3 books by Gary Renard, who spoke very well of Deepak Chopra and Edgar Cayce. It is good to get multiple perspectives without being married to just one to the complete exclusion of others.
I first want to comment about Bonita’s mom – I am sorry to hear how extreme your mom became over Edgar Cayce – I have NEVER heard of anyone else responding in such a drastic way. Virtually everyone else studies the Cayce readings for the useful knowledge they contain, as a supplement to their personal studies – that was the true intent of the Cayce readings, which Cayce clearly taught (and the Association for Research and Enlightenment still teaches). By the way, it is NOT accurate to call him a “medium”, for he would simply enter a state of self-hypnosis, then people would ask him a great variety of questions, most often about their health issues for which the doctors back then often could not properly diagnose & instruct how to best solve. Often Cayce was proven correct by those who faithfully applied his advice, and there are literally hundreds of documented cases in the A.R.E. archives to prove what I have just stated. But hearing what you (Bonita) experienced, it is no wonder you have a negative view on anything coming from psychics/mediums, and it actually makes perfect sense that you became a physician! And as one more side note, I was already aware of the Muslim beliefs concerning the (D)jinn; the Qu’ran (of which I have read and still have a favorite English translation with footnotes) discusses them in the ways that you have stated; and I agree with you that the Midwayers may be referring to them also.
Before I get too far into this post, let me state that I finally finished reading the chapter on Morontia Life – VERY interesting – it touched upon several topics that I have wondered about! I could take time to point out how certain parts of the chapter relate very well to “other sources” that I have read, but judging from how some of you view “other sources”, I will pass on that for now. Honestly, since this forum is supposed to be used to mainly discuss The Urantia Book, it’s probably best to keep our main focus on that book, even though I still greatly value my personal library. I will say that by reading the Morontia Life chapter (after having read the books that I mentioned at the start of this post) provided good clues for me that indicate how reincarnation (and simultaneous realities) COULD be an understandable misinterpretation of the actual process we humans go through. Yes, you could easily make the case that the process being misinterpreted is described in the Morontia Life chapter and the one before it. And yet, as detailed as those chapters are, I get the impression there is MUCH more to the entire process that is left “hidden”.
It’s late, and I need sleep – so more reading and writing on Saturday evening.
Hi,
It is good to get multiple perspectives without being married to just one to the complete exclusion of others.
“I get the impression there is MUCH more to the entire process that is left “hidden”.
UB is my bedside unrivaled, unbettered book. I like a lot UB’s readers do not despite inquiring others sources.
Every question and answer is merely a small part of the larger truth contained within The Urantia Book.
Teaching by asking and answering questions was one of the most powerful teaching tools that Jesus used.Read it critically like any other book. Truth either speaks to us personally or it does not. Much later we can decide whether or not we think the spirit of God speaks through the book.
It contains the most dynamic and spiritually uplifting picture of the life and teaching of Jesus available. It integrates science, philosophy, and religion more effectively than any other religious source. It is validated more completely by experience than any religious view.
“Sincere men are unafraid of the critical examination of their true convictions and noble ideals.“ 146:3.2
Such conceptual expansion would hardly be desirable as it would deprive the thinking mortals of the next thousand years of that stimulus to creative speculation which these partially revealed concepts supply. It is best that man not have an overrevelation; it stifles imagination. 30:0.2
André
Hi urantia4me,
What worked well (for me) was to digest such a “personal library” before discovering the Urantia book. Having been exposed to so much of human wisdom, I could watch it grow pale when compared with the view from “another and higher frame”:
“Conceptual frames of the universe are only relatively true; they are serviceable scaffolding which must eventually give way before the expansions of enlarging cosmic comprehension. The understandings of truth, beauty, and goodness, morality, ethics, duty, love, divinity, origin, existence, purpose, destiny, time, space, even Deity, are only relatively true. God is much, much more than a Father, but the Father is man’s highest concept of God; nonetheless, the Father-Son portrayal of Creator-creature relationship will be augmented by those supermortal conceptions of Deity which will be attained in Orvonton, in Havona, and on Paradise. Man must think in a mortal universe frame, but that does not mean that he cannot envision other and higher frames within which thought can take place.” (115:1.2)
Thanks for joining in
Nigel
Very well expressed, Andre! I grew up reading and studying the Bible, so when I heard a couple of years ago that the Urantia Book contained more than 700 pages on the life and teachings of Jesus, I was determined to get the book for myself. I was really surprised by not only its contents but also how well written it is, with such amazing internal integrity! In fact, you all would be surprised how often I recommend it to others
You all must keep in mind that sometimes I like to play the role of adversary as a way of testing information and as a way for me to learn. For example, when I am with a mainstream Christian, I may sometimes present questions or comments from an atheistic perspective. And with an atheist, I might challenge that person’s logic by using logic similar to C.S. Lewis.And of course the Urantia Book itself challenges some my beliefs; I did not believe in any form of evolution until I read parts of the Urantia Book in which I saw how it fits in the grand scheme of life and as part of an overall Divine plan. So I hope no one gets offended by my thoughts about reincarnation; after all, even Jesus (in the Bible) told Nicodemus that a person must be born again. And he told his disciples that for those who can accept it, that the prophet Enoch had returned as predicted (as John the Baptist). In fact, the Bible had many more references to reincarnation until the time of Emperor Justinian who ordered the removal of several references to reincarnation, leaving only a few remnants in the current version of the Bible that Christians can explain away as “figurative/symbolic”. Church father Origen, who firmly believed that reincarnation was part of the original Christian doctrine, was highly regarded by his contemporaries until the time of emperor Constantine; then a famous vote by church leaders suddenly decided that Origen was a heretic! I realize that is NOT absolute proof that reincarnation is a fact; I simply bring this to everyone’s attention so that you all realize how challenging it will be to convince many people that reincarnation is NOT exactly what is happening.
I know that some of you have good knowledge of what the Urantia Book contains on that subject, but I am telling you from personal experience in debating and when attempting to convince someone to change long-held beliefs, it is NOT enough to claim the Urantia Book is “right” and all other sources are “wrong”. That is why I keep writing that someone needs to clearly explain how the “misinterpretation” of reincarnation is occurring. Think of what I just told you in this way – a math teacher must not only show students the right answers to math problems, but also show all the steps that led to the correct answers. And quite often, it is necessary to show students “step-by-step” how their miscalculations led to their wrong answers. If any of you can take that math example and apply it to the subject of reincarnation versus what the Urantia Book claims, you will have much better chances of success promoting the Urantia Book. The problem that I see in this forum so far is that those who have a good grasp of the Urantia Book do NOT currently have a good grasp of reincarnation. Likewise, those of us who are very familiar with reincarnation do NOT currently have extensive understanding of the Urantia Book! Proof of the first part of that observation can be found in one of Bradly’s comments regarding the TV series that I mentioned called “The Ghost Inside My Child”; his reply to my comment convinced me that he NEVER watched even one case that was discussed in that TV show, yet he acted like he KNEW that it was a case of “false memories”. Such “pretended authoritative knowledge” in subjects one is NOT very familiar with is a real “turn off” to many people, which is a shame in this case because Bradly is VERY knowledgeable about the Urantia Book! I forgive him because I know he means well, but I have found most people are not so forgiving when discussing emotionally-charged subjects. I am NOT writing this to be cruel; rather, I want you all to learn what I have learned when interacting with others – hard lessons which I often learned by making similar mistakes. You can be technically right in every conversation, but lose the entire relationship – do you all understand that?!
I wish I would have gotten involved in this forum much sooner because I could relate very well to some of the people who wrote some of the earliest posts on the subject of reincarnation in this forum but they were highly criticized without being given a fair hearing. Some of them may have continued learning about the Urantia Book but not after being needlessly offended by harsh attitudes. For goodness sake, recall in the Urantia Book how long it took Melchizedek to teach people in the time of Abraham, and how long it took “team Lucifer” to teach primitive humans – almost 300,000 years – before they changed the original Divine plans. The point is that it is unrealistic to expect people to change their long-held views overnite – those kind of changes are very gradual and require patience and gentleness when teaching people. Remember that old saying, “You can catch more flies with honey than with vinegar”?! That principle will benefit everyone in this forum. I hope I can bridge some of the gaps that I sense between participants in this forum, for I know enough even at this early stage in my learning that the Urantia Book contains valuable information for all of humanity, but let’s NOT disrespect previous knowledge that led us each to the point of investigating the Urantia Book. Likewise, I am somewhat disappointed how modern medical practitioners are often so critical of ancient, long-held knowledge of natural remedies; everything has it’s value when one takes the time to carefully investigate. Sometimes surgery is the best option, but more often than not, people gradually harm their bodies without fully realizing what they are doing until something drastic like surgery becomes an immediate need. Thankfully Bonita understands this principle
And Mrs. Columbo, good luck with the project you are working on; the topic of ascension is also covered in some of the books in my personal library, such as the comments by Edgar Cayce who once said that we don’t “go” to heaven – we “grow” toward it, and that there are NO short-cuts. I suspect the Urantia Book would agree with that observation.Thank you Nigel – I just saw your post and am glad to be here. That is a very good, relevant quote from the Urantia Book! By the way, if I recall correctly from browsing other forum topics, did I read that you are very knowledgeable in certain areas such as cosmology? I was wondering if you have ever considered that the massive Angona system that collided with our solar system 4.5 billion years ago (according to the Urantia Book) may be the original source of the infamous Planet X/Nibiru mini system? The Urantia Book states that 3 planets broke away from the Angona system to become part of our solar system, but maintain very elongated orbits, and the Ramala books in my collection state that astronomers will discover (in the relatively near future) that our solar system actually has 12 planets. And before I go to sleep soon, I know you meant well in your post, but I truly enjoy cross-referencing the Urantia Book with some my other books, at least for now – I learn much that way!) Best regards, Michael
A very interesting phenomenon I have witnessed for decades now is how those who study the UB manage preconceptions and prejudices which conflict with or directly contradict the Papers. First is an assumption that those who have come, over time and much study, prayer, and reflection to believe the claims and contents of the UB did not also have to deal with our own preconceptions and prejudices and so we don’t understand the issue. It is presumed we are UB minnions and thoughtless and inexperienced Zombies of the Book.
Or perhaps our preconceptions were silly and trivial and easily set aside unlike the much heavier and real beliefs of those who today defend their own pet and precious prejudices.
It is a most amusing process, this truth seeking business. Sometimes all that the seeker seeks is affirmations as their personal beliefs and prejudices are more real and more important than those others may now or ever have held.
We’re a funny bunch of monkeys.
Let me reiterate and make very clear here that I don’t care what others believe and have no interest in convincing or converting others. This is a UB study group. The UB says what it says. It claims to be a factual presentation of universe reality goven us to reduce the confusions and eliminate the errors of modern, evolutionary knowledge, beliefs, prejudices , superstitions, ignorance, misunderstanding, and metaphysical inventions and fiction. Therefore the text is to be taken literally, meaning the authors wrote deliberately and intentionally and meant what they wrote and wrote what they meant.
Believe it or not. Who cares what I believe?! I am only here to study, share, discover, and discuss the UB teachings. One of which is that ignorance and prejudice are the greatest obstacles to personal growth. Good luck with that…
I know that some of you have good knowledge of what the Urantia Book contains on that subject, but I am telling you from personal experience in debating and when attempting to convince someone to change long-held beliefs, it is NOT enough to claim the Urantia Book is “right” and all other sources are “wrong”.
Personally I do not advocate debating at all. I’ve learned to share what I know from TUB only when asked. Debates always seem to cause defensiveness and the only way to reach someone’s soul is if the defenses are low and the mind open. There are a lot of angry fundamentalists in this community who post on the various boards, but they stir up more dissent and ill feelings than anything else. Psychological defense mechanisms are one of the reasons Jesus chose the parable as a means to present truth. I’m not good at that sort of thing, but I understand how it works, so I have to adapt what I am good at around those principles.
151:3.8 Parables favor the making of impartial moral decisions. The parable evades much prejudice and puts new truth gracefully into the mind and does all this with the arousal of a minimum of the self-defense of personal resentment.
The problem that I see in this forum so far is that those who have a good grasp of the Urantia Book do NOT currently have a good grasp of reincarnation. Likewise, those of us who are very familiar with reincarnation do NOT currently have extensive understanding of the Urantia Book! Proof of the first part of that observation can be found in one of Bradly’s comments regarding the TV series that I mentioned called “The Ghost Inside My Child”; his reply to my comment convinced me that he NEVER watched even one case that was discussed in that TV show, yet he acted like he KNEW that it was a case of “false memories”. Such “pretended authoritative knowledge” in subjects one is NOT very familiar with is a real “turn off” to many people, which is a shame in this case because Bradly is VERY knowledgeable about the Urantia Book! I forgive him because I know he means well, but I have found most people are not so forgiving when discussing emotionally-charged subjects.
There’s no doubt that prejudice is unfruitful and that knowledge of facts doesn’t necessarily lead to wisdom. Just so you know, no one person can be considered a spokesperson for the entire TUB community regardless of their eloquence.
Personally, I’ve only seen one episode of that show and was not impressed with it so I moved on to other shows that interested me more. I’m a bit selfish when it comes to paid entertainment. If I’m not entertained, I move on. That’s not because I’m closed minded, just uninterested. I’m also uninterested in watching sports, so I don’t. And since I’m not the least bit interested in converting people, I see no reason to spend time putting arrows in my quiver for use in future debates. I have no interest in debating sports issues either. If I had any interest, I’d watch the stuff. Hopefully you can see my point.
I really don’t care what people believe, I care more about what they do. Now I know you can say that beliefs are often what motivate people to do things, but I am confident that false beliefs (error) cannot be acted out in real life without a ton of misery. If the misery level gets high enough, people will change their beliefs by looking for other options. When they seek new ideas, I’m there.
2:7.6 Intellectual self-consciousness can discover the beauty of truth, its spiritual quality, not only by the philosophic consistency of its concepts, but more certainly and surely by the unerring response of the ever-present Spirit of Truth. Happiness ensues from the recognition of truth because it can be acted out; it can be lived. Disappointment and sorrow attend upon error because, not being a reality, it cannot be realized in experience. Divine truth is best known by its spiritual flavor.
Reincarnation is a metaphysical problem and therein lies the rub. Human metaphysics is not reliable, which is why we need revelation.
103:6.9 Science is man’s attempted study of his physical environment, the world of energy-matter; religion is man’s experience with the cosmos of spirit values; philosophy has been developed by man’s mind effort to organize and correlate the findings of these widely separated concepts into something like a reasonable and unified attitude toward the cosmos. Philosophy, clarified by revelation, functions acceptably in the absence of mota and in the presence of the breakdown and failure of man’s reason substitute for mota—metaphysics.
103:6.12 Out of his incomplete grasp of science, his faint hold upon religion, and his abortive attempts at metaphysics, man has attempted to construct his formulations of philosophy. And modern man would indeed build a worthy and engaging philosophy of himself and his universe were it not for the breakdown of his all-important and indispensable metaphysical connection between the worlds of matter and spirit, the failure of metaphysics to bridge the morontia gulf between the physical and the spiritual. Mortal man lacks the concept of morontia mind and material; and revelation is the only technique for atoning for this deficiency in the conceptual data which man so urgently needs in order to construct a logical philosophy of the universe and to arrive at a satisfying understanding of his sure and settled place in that universe.
Why is my post bolded even though I did not choose that option? The parts of the quotes I chose to bold do not show up as bolded presumably because the whole post is bolded, I’m not sure. I went back to underline what I’d like to highlight, but that doesn’t work either. If someone can explain this to me, I’d appreciate it. Thanks.
This is bold test of the bolding and robust nature of something! And as it is typed its not bolding, even as it is submitted!
50 minutes later I edited the piece and while doing so the text is not bolded. It did bold after I did the initial submit. Will it bold again? We shall see.
Hello everyone – I have to get ready for work soon, but know that I read all of your most recent replies, and I am also benefiting by reading all of the previous posts in this entire reincarnation forum – Bradly and Bonita have unknowingly answered some of my questions when replying to other posts before I joined, so thanks a bunch! I wish Karen (aka – Ragathea) was still participating, for I would like to compare our findings; I could very much relate to her. I saw in one of those posts that misunderstandings of the mansion world teachings by Adam and the (7 Psychic Circles?) are thought to be contributing to the lingering idea of reincarnation. What exactly are the 7 Psychic Circles? Is that corresponding to the etheric and/or astral plane of existence? I appreciate the personal backgrounds that Bonita and Bradly provided in much earlier posts which helps me to better understand their truth-seeking journeys that brought them to this point in time; so did Andre to an extent. As a side observation, I was wondering if Bonita read what the Urantia Book has said about the idea of Jesus dying on the cross for our sins? It is NOT what mainstream Christianity teaches, which actually impressed me, for I on my own had arrived at a similar conclusion but could not express it as well as did the Urantia Book. Also, I don’t view the subconscious mind and dreams as negatively as Bonita does; I’m sure she has her reasons. I sort of view both as a mixed bag of goodies, and I have my reasons for doing so
Once when I was about 20 years old, I had a very vivid dream in which I was unsure if a car crash took place. When my father came home from work, he told me how he almost had a car accident earlier that day. Even more surprising was that his several details of the event matched extremely well with my dream, which apparently was happening as the event was taking place! That is one of several reasons why I do NOT so easily dismiss the subconscious mind or dreams! Now for Bradly, I have also read what the Urantia Book contains about the evolution of the human species from primates – I was wondering if you had ever heard what Bob Lazar (who claims to have worked at Area 51 and/or Site 4) said regarding govt documents he saw regarding the Greys adjusting our DNA 60+ times from the time we humans were only Simians (from which the Primates came). Although I will have to go back and find the exactly place in the Urantia Book, I recall a subtle reference in TUB that could very well be referring to such DNA tweaking. Also, I too have consulted with many persons who claimed to have psychic abilities, only to find out that I knew far more than they did regarding metaphysics and related subjects! Once I while I would be truly impressed, but NO ONE was ever consistent enough for my standards. But some of them try to help detectives solve difficult criminal cases, so God bless them for that much. Bye for now…The point is that it is unrealistic to expect people to change their long-held views overnite – those kind of changes are very gradual and require patience and gentleness when teaching people. Remember that old saying, “You can catch more flies with honey than with vinegar”?! That principle will benefit everyone in this forum. I hope I can bridge some of the gaps that I sense between participants in this forum, for I know enough even at this early stage in my learning that the Urantia Book contains valuable information for all of humanity, but let’s NOT disrespect previous knowledge that led us each to the point of investigating the Urantia Book.
I thought it might be useful to point out some teachings from TUB that go to your concerns. I prefer to do this one idea at a time so as to lessen confusion.
Point #1: No one I know expects people to change their long-held views overnight, that would be a revolution rather than a revelation. Revelation is designed to be not too far divorced from current thought since it expects to participate in the evolution of that thought.
92:4.1 Revelation is evolutionary but always progressive. Down through the ages of a world’s history, the revelations of religion are ever-expanding and successively more enlightening. It is the mission of revelation to sort and censor the successive religions of evolution. But if revelation is to exalt and upstep the religions of evolution, then must such divine visitations portray teachings which are not too far removed from the thought and reactions of the age in which they are presented. Thus must and does revelation always keep in touch with evolution. Always must the religion of revelation be limited by man’s capacity of receptivity.
93:7.4 A new revelation is always contaminated by the older evolutionary beliefs.
Point #2: Revelation cannot be easily forced into a person’s mind, nor should it. Jesus taught to present truth in such a way that it eventually crowds out all error. He taught to put new truth into souls without taking something out. In other words, leave the erroneous beliefs alone, they will disappear on their own if the person is receptive to truth.
141:6.2 When Simon Zelotes and Jesus were alone, Simon asked the Master: “Why is it that I could not persuade him? Why did he so resist me and so readily lend an ear to you?” Jesus answered: “Simon, Simon, how many times have I instructed you to refrain from all efforts to take something out of the hearts of those who seek salvation? How often have I told you to labor only to put something into these hungry souls? Lead men into the kingdom, and the great and living truths of the kingdom will presently drive out all serious error. When you have presented to mortal man the good news that God is his Father, you can the easier persuade him that he is in reality a son of God. And having done that, you have brought the light of salvation to the one who sits in darkness. Simon, when the Son of Man came first to you, did he come denouncing Moses and the prophets and proclaiming a new and better way of life? No. I came not to take away that which you had from your forefathers but to show you the perfected vision of that which your fathers saw only in part. Go then, Simon, teaching and preaching the kingdom, and when you have a man safely and securely within the kingdom, then is the time, when such a one shall come to you with inquiries, to impart instruction having to do with the progressive advancement of the soul within the divine kingdom.”
132:0.4 And this was his method of instruction: Never once did he attack their errors or even mention the flaws in their teachings. In each case he would select the truth in what they taught and then proceed so to embellish and illuminate this truth in their minds that in a very short time this enhancement of the truth effectively crowded out the associated error.
Point #3: Trying to jam revelation into a mind can actually be dangerous. TUB describes human thought as serviceable scaffolding consisting of a conceptual framework created from incomplete understandings and postulated conclusions. Mind is unity and it needs to close the loop, so to speak. It will invent things in order to maintain stability. Attempting to remove a concept (belief) without an adequate replacement can create chaos in the mind. Revelation is actually designed to form a bridge from the material mind scaffolding to the soul, therefore it is not wise to burn the scaffolding that supports the bridge. The scaffolding will adjust over time (evolve) to higher wisdom and greater truth. When the personality decides to fully identify with the concepts within the soul the scaffolding is no longer necessary.
115:1.1 Partial, incomplete, and evolving intellects would be helpless in the master universe, would be unable to form the first rational thought pattern, were it not for the innate ability of all mind, high or low, to form a universe frame in which to think. If mind cannot fathom conclusions, if it cannot penetrate to true origins, then will such mind unfailingly postulate conclusions and invent origins that it may have a means of logical thought within the frame of these mind-created postulates. And while such universe frames for creature thought are indispensable to rational intellectual operations, they are, without exception, erroneous to a greater or lesser degree.
115:1.2 Conceptual frames of the universe are only relatively true; they are serviceable scaffolding which must eventually give way before the expansions of enlarging cosmic comprehension. The understandings of truth, beauty, and goodness, morality, ethics, duty, love, divinity, origin, existence, purpose, destiny, time, space, even Deity, are only relatively true. God is much, much more than a Father, but the Father is man’s highest concept of God; nonetheless, the Father-Son portrayal of Creator-creature relationship will be augmented by those supermortal conceptions of Deity which will be attained in Orvonton, in Havona, and on Paradise. Man must think in a mortal universe frame, but that does not mean that he cannot envision other and higher frames within which thought can take place.
112:5.22 The Thought Adjuster will recall and rehearse for you only those memories and experiences which are a part of, and essential to, your universe career. If the Adjuster has been a partner in the evolution of aught in the human mind, then will these worth-while experiences survive in the eternal consciousness of the Adjuster. But much of your past life and its memories, having neither spiritual meaning nor morontia value, will perish with the material brain; much of material experience will pass away as onetime scaffolding which, having bridged you over to the morontia level, no longer serves a purpose in the universe. But personality and the relationships between personalities are never scaffolding; mortal memory of personality relationships has cosmic value and will persist. On the mansion worlds you will know and be known, and more, you will remember, and be remembered by, your onetime associates in the short but intriguing life on Urantia.
103:5.11 But man is not saved or ennobled by pressure. Spirit growth springs from within the evolving soul. Pressure may deform the personality, but it never stimulates growth. Even educational pressure is only negatively helpful in that it may aid in the prevention of disastrous experiences. Spiritual growth is greatest where all external pressures are at a minimum. “Where the spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom.” Man develops best when the pressures of home, community, church, and state are least. But this must not be construed as meaning that there is no place in a progressive society for home, social institutions, church, and state.
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