Reincarnation

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  • #25425
    Bradly
    Bradly
    Participant

    Yes Mara….The UB says that much of our confusion lies in our ignorance of the morontia life.  Christians teach a state of perfection is attained simply by dying and being saved before death to enter the eternal bliss of the perfect spirit worlds.  Reincarnation and karma teaches that perfection takes many stages of perfecting and cannot be done or is very rarely achieved in one short human life.  The karma angle brings the requirement of enlightening and perfecting to achieve the heavenly state and abode.  One must have become more and more spiritized to get to heaven.  Sound familiar?

    This belief (and it is and was shared by many religions or belief sets through history) appears to have originated in the teachings of the Garden(s) about the morontia adventure and/or the 7 psychic circles prior to fusion and the personal transformation result to be fusion itself.  These beliefs and myths (or many of them anyway) are shared globally due to Andite migrations prior to the era when Buddhism, Taoism, and the other religious hotspots which were blessed by Mel’s missionaries and blossomed about 500-600 years before Michael’s bestowal.

    #25426
    Avatar
    Ragathea
    Participant

    Thank you for the discussion and your “welcomes!” I am happy to be here. There are several avenues my mind is taking on this subject. I will try to sensibly explain them.

    First, Gene, Weiss, Cannon, and Newton work with hypnotism of patients. All three have written numerous books detailing their cases. Brian Weiss (authored Many Lives, Many Masters) takes people backward through their current life, through childhood, infancy, and to their current birth, then further to their previous lives (starting with their deaths in those lives, then backward from there). Many people claim the medical problems they suffer from in this life have disappeared after a hypnotism session. (A woman had pain in her back… hypnotized… went to previous life… discovered she’d been stabbed in the back and died… returned to the present… pain now gone. This is a very brief example of his work.) Weiss is probably the most well-known person in his field.

    Dolores Cannon describes a different approach to hypnotism, Quantum Healing Hypnosis Technique (QHHT) in which she takes a person to the somnambulistic trance state, deeper than the level of consciousness Weiss works with. She takes them to what she calls the SC (subconscious) (different from what we think of as the subconscious). Like Weiss, she takes people through previous lives, but many of her patients describe lives on other planets and even lives as things in nature (a drop of water in a river, a rock, a worm… “everything that exists has consciousness”). http://dolorescannon.com/about-qhht/

    Dr. Michael Newton’s (Newton Institute) specialty is Life Between Lives (LBL), in which hypnotees are taken past their previous birth into the time between this life and the last one. Although he does go to past lives, this time between earth lives is where he concentrates most of his work. People meet others in their “soul groups,” enjoy the Hall of Records (akashic), visit the past life room (forgot what he calls it) where people can see what they were in previous lives, what their missions were, did they accomplish them? what were their weaknesses? strengths? what goals did they set up for themselves in this life?, etc etc. (Did you know there’s even a LIBRARY in Heaven?? :-) ). It is all for soul development. Both Cannon’s (QHHT) and Newton’s (LBL training) methods are taught to other practitioners all over the world.

    All three of these practitioners are pretty much in agreement regarding their work, as I do not think there are discrepancies as far as the general soul advancement issue. While I do not personally have any reason to believe I have lived before, as I don’t have memories of such, I do have pre-birth memories. I can discuss this if anyone’s interested, but of course it isn’t about Urantia Book, so I may not be permitted here.

    My thoughts on the issue are not beliefs of mine. Like many others, I am always in a state of assimilation, putting things together, finding the why’s, making things make sense, so my mind is constantly doing jigsaw puzzles with concepts I come across in my reading. Now I know, since I’m human, I just fit new ideas into those already existing, those I’ve already accepted. I am aware this tendency is part of the reason so many have been misled by religions and cultures. That said, here is the evolution of my reincarnation education, and they are merely thought of in my head as what if’s: As a child, after reading the books of the three doctors discussed above, I came to believe that humans indeed have had multiple lives on earth, linearly, or consecutively. The number of patients these Dr’s had number in the thousands, and many of them, strangers to each other,  spoke of identical experiences. In addition, a study was done at UVA that is the largest study of children regarding past lives, and also favored the concept. Some of the stories gave me chills. So basically, this was enough for me to accept the belief in reincarnation.

    However, through further study, I learned the concept of “One Space, One Time” which states we all occupy the same space and the only time is now. In fact, time doesn’t even exist “over there”, it is only a manmade construct to make life on earth more manageable and better understood. So everything happening on earth is supposedly happening at the same time. Some go as far as to specify, yes, all of our lives–past, present, and future–are all happening at the same time. This sounds totally off the wall, I am aware.

    After all my readings, most of which embrace reincarnation, imagine my surprise when I learned what Urantia Book had to say about it.  If we do not have more than one earth life, as UB teaches, and thousands of people are having these memories and hypnotisms in favor of reincarnation, are we perhaps receiving the memories of our ancestors somehow through the DNA? And mistakenly impressed with the fact that they are our own? Would that explain it? For the record, I resonate strongly with the UB. But at the same time, I consider what I know in favor of reincarnation. The only way my human brain can reconcile this seemingly contradictory information is as follows: (Background info necessary here) There is a part of Newton’s work that discusses the fact that we never bring 100% of our energy with us to a life on earth. Basically, we leave pieces of us where we came from, parts of our souls. Also, more than one part of a person’s energy can live multiple lives on earth, even at the same time. So……. I picture a timeline of all of earth’s history and future, and pieces of ourselves preparing to become individuals, determining the time they want to live in that would best serve the whole by offering experiences that would give the most advancement. So they select lives, for example, one in 1,000 BC, one during the Renaissance, one on the Mayflower, one in the Roaring 20’s, and one a thousand years from our current time. If all our lives are happening concurrently– because there is only one time– when we come here, do we choose what part of history to enter like this? How else can it be reconciled? And could the hypnotees, when “remembering” past lives, merely be crossing over or picking up on a life currently being lived by part of themselves, but in a different time?

    As I said, I have not totally embraced any of it. I do try to concentrate on my current life, which is very time consuming  ;-) These ideas may sound crazy, but we must remember that there are realities and truths that we as humans are not equipped to comprehend. Our brains literally cannot fathom some concepts of the spirit world–and aren’t supposed to. If anyone would like to touch on this, I would appreciate further discussion, although there may be some time between my posts as this is a busy summer! I hope this doesn’t sound repetitive.  Thanks again to all. I am glad I found you.

    #25428
    Van Amadon
    Van Amadon
    Participant

    Everyone who discovers the Urantia Book and decides to dedicate themselves to incorporate its revelations into their way of thinking about what’s real and what’s not, struggles with the phenomenon of working out how to do it while being encumbered with long held onto ideas (which may be right or wrong) dominating the mind currently.

    (147:7.2) Be reminded that a wise tailor does not sew a piece of new and unshrunk cloth upon an old garment, lest, when it is wet, it shrink and produce a worse rent. Neither do men put new wine into old wine skins, lest the new wine burst the skins so that both the wine and the skins perish. The wise man puts the new wine into fresh wine skins. Therefore do my disciples show wisdom in that they do not bring too much of the old order over into the new teaching of the gospel of the kingdom.

    The revelations of the Urantia Book are like very fresh wine.

     

    #25429
    Avatar
    Gene
    Participant

    Ragathea

    i appreciate your in depth reply, however I must admit I am a bit confused. This is all very new and very different to me.

    i have no recollection of past lives, never even thought about it and as an out of control adolescent my mom thought hypnosis would help me- I cannot be hypnotized I found out.

    i do believe that the power of suggestion is very powerful however and obviously there are people that can be hypnotized.  One could easily argue the combination of the two as well as the studies and interests and beliefs of a person could easily be the reality that one believes to be real.

    in regard to the healing that some experienced, I think about what Jesus told so many people that experienced healing – it was their own faith that made it happen. The mind is powerful beyond my understanding. It is also subject to deceptions and fanaticism as disclosed by the rebellion and even spiritual revelation that is misunderstood misused and abused.

    I see reincarnation as something that binds us to something I interpret as nonproductive, not much potential for the progress described to the Urania book.

    Sorry if I’m not a sympathetic ear to this sort of thing.

    #25430
    Bonita
    Bonita
    Participant

    The problem I have with the concept of reincarnation is a very basic one: It’s backwards.

    Reincarnation is based upon the belief that reliving past mistakes, with the hope of correcting them, can bring eternal peace.  Jesus was pretty clear that mistakes don’t have to be relived in another life; mistakes are ideally recognized and corrected in this life.  If you think about it, coming back to earth to relive a life hoping not to make the same mistakes you made in the last one is a pretty futile exercise, not to mention exhausting.  And not to mention it fosters the fallacy of original sin.

    Another thing that doesn’t make sense about reincarnation is that it suggests the soul a person has in this life is the same soul he/she had in a previous life.  This is another way of saying that the soul pre-exists, and we know that each soul is born anew, that it is morontia in substance, and that it cannot be re-attached to a new material body and mind.  After death the soul is in the care of the guardian angel and cannot go backwards.  Also, if a soul re-attaches to another material body and mind, it would have to bring the Adjuster with it, and we know that this does not happen.  Adjusters do not return to the same planet after death, even if the soul does not survive, except in special cases, like the Adjuster who indwelled Melchizedek who came back to indwell Jesus.

    109:4.6  In a sense the Adjusters may be fostering a certain degree of planetary cross-fertilization in the domains of truth, beauty, and goodness. But they are seldom given two indwelling experiences on the same planet; there is no Adjuster now serving on Urantia who has been on this world previously. I know whereof I speak since we have their numbers and records in the archives of Uversa.

    #25431
    Bonita
    Bonita
    Participant

    Also, hypnosis is a method to tap the subconscious mind.  The subconscious mind is not something that is carried over from one life to another.  It certainly is not taken with us to the mansion worlds.  The subconscious mind is nothing more than an overflow receptacle for all the stuff that cannot be held by the conscious mind during wakeful hours.  Once all that stuff overflows into the subconscious, it is no longer subject to the conscious mind’s ability to filter, organize and compartmentalize  . . . hence the chaotic mess that often surfaces during dreams.  The dream state is mostly a parade of subconscious spill-over from ordinary life which hasn’t had the opportunity to be rationalized . . . in other words:  total nonsense.   Why would anyone structure a religion around subconscious emanations conjured up by hypnosis?  There’s no difference between that and mysticism, channelling and mediumship.

    #25432
    Mara
    Mara
    Participant

    I am always in a state of assimilation, putting things together, finding the why’s, making things make sense . . . .

    Yes, me too.  Always asking questions.  For me reincarnation was an interesting explanation based on an old religion – a religion very different from modern Christianity embracing things I always found unacceptable.  It was a concept that seemed reasonable, at least superficially, to me at the time, and, at the time I just could not accept that Jesus died on the cross for my sins, among other things.  But then I found the revelation.  The Urantia Book.  And my eyes were opened, so to speak.  Since I once believed the idea of reincarnation, I can empathise with people like my friend who prefers to continue with her beliefs.  It takes a leap of faith to give up one’s long-cherished beliefs. Jesus said this in answer to a question posed by Simon regarding Teherma, a Persian doing business at Damascus.

    141:6.2[Part IV]
    When Simon Zelotes and Jesus were alone, Simon asked the Master: “Why is it that I could not persuade him? Why did he so resist me and so readily lend an ear to you?” Jesus answered: “Simon, Simon, how many times have I instructed you to refrain from all efforts to take something out of the hearts of those who seek salvation? How often have I told you to labor only to put something into these hungry souls? Lead men into the kingdom, and the great and living truths of the kingdom will presently drive out all serious error. When you have presented to mortal man the good news that God is his Father, you can the easier persuade him that he is in reality a son of God. And having done that, you have brought the light of salvation to the one who sits in darkness. Simon, when the Son of Man came first to you, did he come denouncing Moses and the prophets and proclaiming a new and better way of life? No. I came not to takeaway that which you had from your forefathers but to show you the perfected vision of that which your fathers saw only in part. Go then, Simon, teaching and preaching the kingdom, and when you have a man safely and securely within the kingdom, then is the time, when such a one shall come to you with inquiries, to impart instruction having to do with the progressive advancement of the soul within the divine kingdom.”
    So I am not worried about my dear friend.  Eventually the great and living truths of the kingdom will presently drive out all serious error.
     .
    One thing about the idea of reincarnation is sort of interesting.  It is very self-centered.  There is nothing altruistic about it as far as I can see.  There is a sort of me-ism about it.
    94:2.3  The undue concentration on self led certainly to a fear of the nonevolutionary perpetuation of self in an endless round of successive incarnations as man, beast, or weeds.
    I doubt that anyone has claimed to have lived previously as a weed.
    #25433
    Bonita
    Bonita
    Participant
    Ragathea wrote: (A woman had pain in her back… hypnotized… went to previous life… discovered she’d been stabbed in the back and died… returned to the present… pain now gone. This is a very brief example of his work.)

    Obviously this woman’s back pain was primarily psychological, not to mention the fact that she was probably seeking relief in the first place.  It’s interesting that most of the healing Jesus did involved people with psychic issues.  He healed their minds and the mind healed the body. All hypnotism does is make the suggestion to the mind in such a way that it becomes free to act.  In the case of the woman with back pain, hypnotism probably relieved some source of guilt or self-inflicted punishment she was not conscious of, which did the trick, it was enough to “release the burden,” so to speak.

    Jesus did not hypnotize but he did open the mind to new possibilities and new hopes for the future. Jesus was and is all about newness, going forward, not backwardness; he’s about being fearless, positive and strong.  That kind of attitude is curative on many levels.  And this is why having a relationship with the Spirit of Truth can actually improve the health. (The joy of this outpoured spirit, when it is consciously experienced in human life, is a tonic for health, a stimulus for mind, and an unfailing energy for the soul. 194:3.19)

    146:6.1 These people believed in signs; they were a wonder-seeking generation. By this time the people of central and southern Galilee had become miracle minded regarding Jesus and his personal ministry. Scores, hundreds, of honest persons suffering from purely nervous disorders and afflicted with emotional disturbances came into Jesus’ presence and then returned home to their friends announcing that Jesus had healed them. And such cases of mental healing these ignorant and simple-minded people regarded as physical healing, miraculous cures.

    148:2.1-2 Jesus visited the sick of this encampment not less than three times a week and made personal contact with each sufferer. As far as we know, no so-called miracles of supernatural healing occurred among the one thousand afflicted and ailing persons who went away from this infirmary improved or cured. However, the vast majority of these benefited individuals ceased not to proclaim that Jesus had healed them.  Many of the cures effected by Jesus in connection with his ministry in behalf of Elman’s patients did, indeed, appear to resemble the working of miracles, but we were instructed that they were only just such transformations of mind and spirit as may occur in the experience of expectant and faith-dominated persons who are under the immediate and inspirational influence of a strong, positive, and beneficent personality whose ministry banishes fear and destroys anxiety.

    141:8.2 They now made the discovery that the good news of the kingdom was very comforting to the sick; that their message carried healing for the afflicted.

     

    #25434
    Bonita
    Bonita
    Participant
    Ragathea wrote:“everything that exists has consciousness”
    Is that your belief or Dolores Cannon’s?
    So, does that mean that my refrigerator really does have a mind of its own?  It’s been telling me lately to replace the water filter . . .  it’s annoying . . . I wish it would shut up . . .  beeping all the time.  I do know my hair has a mind of its own though.  That’s for sure.  No doubtaboutit! Can’t get it to do anything I want.
    #25436
    Bonita
    Bonita
    Participant
    Ragathea wrote:  Basically, we leave pieces of us where we came from, parts of our souls. . . . . I picture a timeline of all of earth’s history and future, and pieces of ourselves preparing to become individuals, determining the time they want to live in that would best serve the whole by offering experiences that would give the most advancement. So they select lives, . . .

    This is the classic pre-existence of the soul meme.  I’m sorry, but it is one of the biggest frauds foisted onto humanity that I know of other than original sin.  I understand how it came to be from pre-historic times, but I don’t understand why people continually perpetuate it. If you love the idea of soul shards, you’ll love Manichaeism.  It’s an offshoot of Zoroastrianism.  Google it.  You’ll find it fascinating.  Even St. Augustine loved that religion at one time.

    Anyway . . . . . . basically, we leave pieces of actualized reality behind us during our short life on this planet.  We do not leave pieces of our souls behind, unless it is meant metaphorically.  Obviously, actualized reality can be either good or bad, evil or true, beautiful or ugly.  What we want to do is leave a trail of actualized reality in harmony with the universe.  When we do, we leave behind a legacy of truth, beauty and goodness, and this alone is what grows the soul.

    But alas, our souls themselves cannot be left behind.  Souls cannot function on the material/physical level of existence.  They are morontial.  But they do take with them all that is of value from having created the legacy of truth, beauty and goodness (which is how they grow).  Souls must await the mansion worlds where they can exercise a little autonomy, i.e. be the morontia mind and character of the new morontia personality with its powers of choice.  There they can rock and roll, so to speak.

    Time is essential for the working out of actualized reality that is not in harmony of the universe, i.e evil and imperfection.  We are all still paying the price for the big blunders of time – the rebellion and the default.  Those inharmonious realities are still being worked out, but the souls that created the mess have long gone.  Those who had souls did not leave them behind in pieces.  Adam and Eve were not required to come back and relive the mess they created, nor gather up their soul shards.  (And they did have souls after they got their Adjusters.)

    The truth is that neither a self nor a soul can function if it is all blown apart into little pieces.  The goal of the universe is unity.  The best personality is a unified personality; a balanced personality; a personality wholeheartedly devoted to discovering, recognizing, interpreting and choosing reality (God’s will), right here and right now in this very moment of time.

     

     

    #25441
    Bonita
    Bonita
    Participant

    If everything that exists has a consciousness, then everything that exists must be minded, but we know that is not true.  A rock is not minded . . . although the CGW (Church of Global Warming) would have you think otherwise . . .  but I digress.  Seriously, the physical universe is different from the minded universe:

    29:4.37 These living barometers are solely concerned with the automatic and unerring registration of the status of all forms of force-energy. They are to the physical universe what the vast reflectivity mechanism is to the minded universe.

    The physical universe is controlled by the minded universe, not the other way around.  Life, and hence mind since they are part and parcel, is initiated upon a pre-established physical substrate.  That does not give the physical substrate itself mindedness or consciousness.  Mind is the creative power which utilizes the physical substrate to evolve the life it brings with it.  It is only after the physical universe is organized by the Creative Spirit that she imparts life to it.  And as I said, life and mind ministry come as a package . . . first via the Physical Controllers, second by the adjutants mind spirits, third by the Creative Spirit herself as the Holy Spirit.  Since mind is unity, life itself strives for unity as well.  Such a beautiful plan would totally fall apart if mind and life were constantly breaking up into little pieces.  I simply cannot picture it.

    42:12.2 Mind is always creative. The mind endowment of an individual animal, mortal, morontian, spirit ascender, or finality attainer is always competent to produce a suitable and serviceable body for the living creature identity.

     

    #25445
    Bradly
    Bradly
    Participant

    Thanks Bonita for sharing your perspective on the topic.  We know the power of the mortal mind to transform itself and transcend the material limitations of our existence also contains the very real potential for delusion, confusion, and substitution in the normal operating system called brain/mind.  A very potent potential indeed!

    I think past life memories are either self created or embedded by those who make money by making memories in the minds of others.  Anyone who has had a few ‘readings’ can easily ascertain the timeless mediumship parlor game.  A review of Houdini and other medium debunkers shows that no amount of money offered has ever resulted in any form of verification for such claimants.  As you say, those who practice such mediumship may be serious in their delusion but are more likely profiting by the belief of others and are manipulators of the mind just like the channelers and portenders do so.  Those who perform these acts are not too hard to understand but their seemingly endless audience is interesting to consider.

    I think everyone wants to believe in immortality and eternity and a friendly universe filled with beings who abide in God’s creation.  A good thing.  I think many seek to explain, understand, and escape the material vicissitudes and the uncertainties and the confusions of this mortal life.  Also a good thing.  So I don’t worry too much about those who embrace such beliefs as prior lives and progressive experience and growing wisdom and spirit who feel that we all need to know more and better and do more and better to experience and express the spiritization of our dual natures….growth in time by personal choices, motives, and priorities.

    The notion of reincarnation, as inaccurate as it may be, truly requires growth and change….unlike the instant salvation fiction offered by Western Christianity.  But it is best to understand the source of the myth of reincarnation to better understand reality and the true nature of spiritual progress in this singular mortal life and in the morontia state to come!  It is a childish and primitive belief once we gain the knowledge provided in the FER.  But….plenty of those to go around….hahahahaha!

    #25450
    Avatar
    Mark Kurtz
    Participant

    Yes, Bradly. Recall these words from the Foreword: “…to expand cosmic consciousness…”? It is the revelators who know much more than we mortals. So, with that, we may assume all of mankind’s beliefs are subject to correction and expansion.

    Toward greater enlightenment for all…………………..!

     

    #25452
    Bonita
    Bonita
    Participant
    Mark Kurtz wrote:   . . . we may assume all of mankind’s beliefs are subject to correction and expansion.

    I agree, beliefs are subject to change.  Faith is subject to growth.

    The question I always come up against is the best way to deal with people’s beliefs.  When people find out you don’t share their beliefs, they can get pretty weird about it.  Some will shun you, some with scorn you and some will chop off your head . . . it’s a crazy business.  I think the best I can do is not be one of “those people”.  Sooooo . . . . . I hope Ragathea doesn’t get the wrong impression.  I’m fine with people believing in reincarnation and soul shards . . .  I just don’t find any of it useful to my personal philosophy of life and I share my reasons, for whatever they’re worth . . . about 2¢.

    #25455
    Bradly
    Bradly
    Participant

    In her opening post of this topic Ragathea says:  “I am confused. TUB states in several places that the idea of reincarnation is absurd. How would one explain, then, the work of those such as Brian Weiss, Dolores Cannon, and Michael Newton? (Not to mention the religions of Buddhism and Hinduism). I have an idea on the issue, but I would first like to see some discussion on it to get some other ideas I may not have considered. Then I would like to share my thoughts on the subject.”

    I really appreciate R’s approach so far…questions and conflict rather than declarations.  Very good.  One sign of the sincere student who discovers conflict/contradiction to preconception.  We’ve all had them and they take many forms, some of which are direct and blunt contradictions to long cherished religious beliefs even and some more subtle and easier to lay aside.

    For me the UB offered many such conflicts which required I lay them aside for a season, suspended in time, to keep moving through the UB.  Why keep going at all?  First of all, the true truth seeker is aware of our limitations and prejudices, both learned personally and imposed by the family/tribe/church/culture/community, and we know to be skeptical of our own perspectives and conclusions….the open mind to further discoveries.

    Mostly though for me, for all such conflicts there were so many more confirmations than conflicts that I was motivated to keep pursuing my studies of the UB.  Also, many other points filled in blanks and connected confirmations in ways that appear to be perfectly plausible, even logical and reasoned in the harmonizations of every single fact and teaching (and so called conflict)….especially so the Jesus story.  I was already a Jesusonian in my rejection of the Christianity which hijacked it and buried it within the doctrines, creeds, ceremonies, etc. of the church, and nothing has ever so purely, profoundly, and redundantly presented the Jesusonian Gospel that I had ever read before!

    After much study and several readings, the whole tapestry and symphony of its contents began to gain strength and melody and tempo, as it delivered a perspective of reality that reverberated truthfully within – internal confirmations.  This is all I hope for newer readers….that they give the UB sufficient time and patient attention for it’s own voice to find expression in mind to allow it’s wondrous sensibilities to be discovered.  So I agree with Bonita that our purpose here is not to bash the heads of new readers with 40 lbs. of Big Blue and insist it be believed and immediately!!

    Nonetheless, we do gather here together in study OF the UB and to share our experiences IN our spiritual and material life regarding the UB.  We are not here to be persuaded by others anymore than we are here to persuade someone of our beliefs.  But it is the UB that is the core and foundation of our discussions and discoveries here….regardless of our personal beliefs in favor of or opposed to the UB.  May we do so in ways that encourage new readers and all sincere inquiry here.

    Sometimes students must eventually come to choose our source materials and measure our own loyalty to our beliefs and the beliefs (and claims) of others.  There is much that is believed by many which has no fact or truth content and yet some cling to what is believed today at the risk of the negative effects of pride and prejudice…or the closed mind.  A deadly poison for a truth seeker.

    :good:

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