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Hi Van,
Yes, I really think so …
Embracing iniquity is quite different than suffer rebellion, ignorance, confusion ! Rebellion / ignorance / confusion are related avenues in an imperfect universe as you and I are experiencing.
TUB (revelations) and T/A (auto-revelation) tell us iniquity result from a delibarate stubborn personnal choice to know good and keep chosing evil.
How infaillible spirituals ministries, impart in and around each of HIS children, could fail Divine promesse ” I AM GOD. What I began, I will finish it ” ? *
In broherhood,
André
*p.s. quote ref.needed please.
Indeed Andre…and well said!! We are each provided the ‘flicker’ within and none may be extinguished by any act of any other, even by the rebellion. None are doomed by ignorance, fear, doubt, confusion, or error in beliefs. We are told:
54:6.4 (619.1) But one thing should be made clear: If you are made to suffer the evil consequences of the sin of some member of your family, some fellow citizen or fellow mortal, even rebellion in the system or elsewhere — no matter what you may have to endure because of the wrongdoing of your associates, fellows, or superiors — you may rest secure in the eternal assurance that such tribulations are transient afflictions. None of these fraternal consequences of misbehavior in the group can ever jeopardize your eternal prospects or in the least degree deprive you of your divine right of Paradise ascension and God attainment.
54:6.6 (619.3) At first the Lucifer upheaval appeared to be an unmitigated calamity to the system and to the universe. Gradually benefits began to accrue. With the passing of twenty-five thousand years of system time (twenty thousand years of Urantia time), the Melchizedeks began to teach that the good resulting from Lucifer’s folly had come to equal the evil incurred. The sum of evil had by that time become almost stationary, continuing to increase only on certain isolated worlds, while the beneficial repercussions continued to multiply and extend out through the universe and superuniverse, even to Havona. The Melchizedeks now teach that the good resulting from the Satania rebellion is more than a thousand times the sum of all the evil.
54:6.7 (619.4) But such an extraordinary and beneficent harvest of wrongdoing could only be brought about by the wise, divine, and merciful attitude of all of Lucifer’s superiors, extending from the Constellation Fathers on Edentia to the Universal Father on Paradise. The passing of time has enhanced the consequential good to be derived from the Lucifer folly; and since the evil to be penalized was quite fully developed within a comparatively short time, it is apparent that the all-wise and farseeing universe rulers would be certain to extend the time in which to reap increasingly beneficial results. Regardless of the many additional reasons for delaying the apprehension and adjudication of the Satania rebels, this one gain would have been enough to explain why these sinners were not sooner interned, and why they have not been adjudicated and destroyed.
54:6.8 (619.5) Shortsighted and time-bound mortal minds should be slow to criticize the time delays of the farseeing and all-wise administrators of universe affairs.
54:6.9 (620.1) One error of human thinking respecting these problems consists in the idea that all evolutionary mortals on an evolving planet would choose to enter upon the Paradise career if sin had not cursed their world. The ability to decline survival does not date from the times of the Lucifer rebellion. Mortal man has always possessed the endowment of freewill choice regarding the Paradise career.
Do you really think that the rebellion did not cause some of God’s children to become so affected by confusion to end up embracing iniquity themselves and losing their souls?
Isn’t this scapegoating? The definition of iniquity requires that the sinner is fully conscious of both options, good and evil, and consistently chooses evil. You can’t blame other people for that. Only one person is responsible for their actions, and that is the actor. The laws of mercy take into account the problems of confusion caused by circumstances. No soul will be lost because of confusion and doubt caused by the erroneous teachings and examples of others.
To be charged with iniquity means the individual KNOWS BETTER, which means the individual is NO LONGER CONFUSED concerning evil. And, every soul will have the opportunity to become UNCONFUSED, even if it takes eons. Refusal to become UNCONFUSED, after every effort by our celestial friends and parents, must indicate a total and wholehearted lack of desire for sonship. Of course this happens, but mercy credits are so ample that it takes tremendous effort on the part of the suicidal to fulfill their desires. It must be conscious, willing and deliberate. No scapegoat can be blamed for that level of decision. The blame game is extremely immature.
I really hope you Andre and Bradly are right. That the rebellion is all good and that no one has fallen victim to it to the point that they turned their back to God and ended up losing everything because no flicker could be found.
I really hope.
***
Sorry for not providing quote references. One of my bad habits. Brad has rebuked me about it too a few times. Sometimes I don’t feel it’s that necessary.
Do you really think that the rebellion did not cause some of God’s children to become so affected by confusion to end up embracing iniquity themselves and losing their souls?
Isn’t this scapegoating? The definition of iniquity requires that the sinner is fully conscious of both options, good and evil, and consistently chooses evil. You can’t blame other people for that. Only one person is responsible for their actions, and that is the actor. The laws of mercy take into account the problems of confusion caused by circumstances. No soul will be lost because of confusion and doubt caused by the erroneous teachings and examples of others. To be charged with iniquity means the individual KNOWS BETTER, which means the individual is NO LONGER CONFUSED concerning evil. And, every soul will have the opportunity to become UNCONFUSED, even if it takes eons. Refusal to become UNCONFUSED, after every effort by our celestial friends and parents, must indicate a total and wholehearted lack of desire for sonship. Of course this happens, but mercy credits are so ample that it takes tremendous effort on the part of the suicidal to fulfill their desires. It must be conscious, willing and deliberate. No scapegoat can be blamed for that level of decision. The blame game is extremely immature.
I hear ya Bonita.
Perhaps divine mercy is much greater than I can imagine.
Bradly quoted:
And it could have happened 10x’s already!! Hell! We might be in the Mansion world right now as we type! Would a Urantian know he was on the Mansion world? Does it require belief to accept the reality one is now residing in the Mansion world? Is the Mansion world driven by literal facts or belief!!???So many unknowns!As pointed out on page one of this thread, there is a cosmic plan for evacuating Urantia, should it come to that. While TUB doesn’t specifically say, I am personally convinced that if such a migration occurs, we will be none the wiser. The Life Carriers and other celestial organizers will make it such that our minds will not recognize anything amiss from our current existence. Heck, it could have already happened while you were reading this thread! In the meantime, should any of us be so unfortunate as to suffer the physical devastation and illness associated with nuclear war, it is from our suffering in life that growth occurs. All we can do is hold fast to our faith and continue to seek out Truth, Beauty and Love.
Bradly here: This is all very confusing. It might appear that it is being claimed that one cannot tell reality from unreality on the Mansion Worlds? And that the Mansion Worlds are not or may not be real….. and actual architectural spheres?
Bradly, I hope I did not cause confusion – I certainly do NOT believe that a planetary crisis evacuation would take us to the Mansion World. I agree with the TUB quotes you posted and that there is no possible way we would not know when we get there. My post above was speculating about an evacuation to another evolutionary planet, not a Mansion World or architectural sphere.
No worries Sister…I find your posts lucid, reasonable, focused, on-topic…and quite enjoyable!!! You did not add to any confusion here at all, just the opposite. Frankly, it’s my opinion that more from you would be most welcome.
Blessings.
Perhaps divine mercy is much greater than I can imagine.
Most likely it is greater than any of us can imagine. If we could, we’d be a lot nicer to one another, that’s for sure.
Frankly, it’s my opinion that more from you would be most welcome.
I’ll ditto that.
I have a question. Do you think it’s moral to alter people’s minds without their consent? Do you think “the gods” would do such a thing?
I have a question. Do you think it’s moral to alter people’s minds without their consent? Do you think “the gods” would do such a thing?
I don’t think it’s moral or immoral….I think it is impossible!!
5:6.8 [Part I]
Having thus provided for the growth of the immortal soul and having liberated man’s inner self from the fetters of absolute dependence on antecedent causation, the Father stands aside. Now, man having thus been liberated from the fetters of causation response, at least as pertains to eternal destiny, and provision having been made for the growth of the immortal self, the soul, it remains for man himself to will the creation or to inhibit the creation of this surviving and eternal self which is his for the choosing. No other being, force, creator, or agency in all the wide universe of universes can interfere to any degree with the absolute sovereignty of the mortal free will, as it operates within the realms of choice, regarding the eternal destiny of the personality of the choosing mortal. As pertains to eternal survival, God has decreed the sovereignty of the material and mortal will, and that decree is absolute.66:8.6 [Part III]
The doctrine of a personal devil on Urantia, though it had some foundation in the planetary presence of the traitorous and iniquitous Caligastia, was nevertheless wholly fictitious in its teachings that such a “devil” could influence the normal human mind against its free and natural choosing. Even before Michael’s bestowal on Urantia, neither Caligastia nor Daligastia was ever able to oppress mortals or to coerce any normal individual into doing anything against the human will. The free will of man is supreme in moral affairs; even the indwelling Thought Adjuster refuses to compel man to think a single thought or to perform a single act against the choosing of man’s own will.“The Devil made me do it”….is a lie and, as you say above, an ineffective scape goat excuse for bad choices. No one makes anyone think or do anything at all!
I don’t think it’s moral or immoral….I think it is impossible!!
If that is so, then Keryn’s idea quoted below would be impossible? Or, is she saying that the environment would be changed to fit our expectations, rather than changing our minds? Would that include the position of the stars and planets in the sky, the moon and sun cycles, our space satellites, probes and station, our seasons, the continents? If it’s an evolutionary world, I don’t think that is possible. It would have to be an architectural world in order to accomplish all that.
The Life Carriers and other celestial organizers will make it such that our minds will not recognize anything amiss from our current existence.
But, doesn’t the quote state that dematerialization occurs only in wake of a PHYSICAL catastrophe. Isn’t a nuclear war a man-made catastrophe? Wouldn’t we be expected to work out the problems of our civilization if we go down that road? to deal with the consequences? I personally don’t think that a global nuclear war would wipe out the whole planet and all life (including human). I think we’d be stuck here to pick up the pieces, to reap what we sow and to build on the experience. All the more reason to be careful and caring.
“If that is so, then Keryn’s idea quoted below would be impossible? Or, is she saying that the environment would be changed to fit our expectations, rather than changing our minds?”
Honestly, I intentionally chose not to take my own speculation down to that level of detail because it is a sticky wicket. There are some things I read in TUB that I take on faith and, in a sense, in my mind a ‘magic wand’ makes it all work and I don’t worry about the details. The questions you are asking occurred to me, and I simply chose not to try to work that out in my mind.
Bonita is correct that it says “physical catastrophe”. But that doesn’t seem to place qualifications on the cause, but rather, seems to be focused on the end result:
51:2.3(582.3) While there is this dematerializing technique for preparing the Adams for transit from Jerusem to the evolutionary worlds, there is no equivalent method for taking them away from such worlds unless the entire planet is to be emptied, in which event emergency installation of the dematerialization technique is made for the entire salvable population. If some physical catastrophe should doom the planetary residence of an evolving race, the Melchizedeks and the Life Carriers would install the technique of dematerialization for all survivors, and by seraphic transport these beings would be carried away to the new world prepared for their continuing existence. The evolution of a human race, once initiated on a world of space, must proceed quite independently of the physical survival of that planet, but during the evolutionary ages it is not otherwise intended that a Planetary Adam or Eve shall leave their chosen world.
A “global nuclear war” would likely destroy the air, water, and land to the point that it would qualify as having “doom[ed] the planetary residence (earth) of the evolving race (us)”. Just my opinion, though. Could be wrong.
I agree with Bonita that we would still have to ” to pick up the pieces, to reap what we sow and to build on the experience” – only on another evolutionary sphere on which we would continue as we were on Urantia – with the same politics, same individuals in global leadership positions, same attitudes of the populace etc. and we would have to figure out how to go on, hopefully in a more productive fashion, going forward on the new/replacement planet. (But, I mean, we can’t do that if there is no air for us to breathe …. so moving to a safe/ habitable planet and continuing our evolution (seemingly) uninterrupted makes sense.)
I agree with Bonita that we would still have to ” to pick up the pieces, to reap what we sow and to build on the experience” – only on another evolutionary sphere on which we would continue as we were on Urantia – with the same politics, same individuals in global leadership positions, same attitudes of the populace etc. and we would have to figure out how to go on, hopefully in a more productive fashion, going forward on the new/replacement planet. (But, I mean, we can’t do that if there is no air for us to breathe …. so moving to a safe/ habitable planet and continuing our evolution (seemingly) uninterrupted makes sense.)
A couple of things come to mind. First, the quote says only the salvable population will be dematerialized to a new world. I interpret that to mean that the “worst of the worst” might not make it there, which could make life a little better.
But that aside, I’m 100% certain that even if this world embarked on a full fledged nuclear war with every nuclear weapon launched and exploded, there are not enough bombs to result in total world-wide decimation or destruction. It just ain’t gonna happen. There’ll be a big mess, that’s for sure, especially in highly populated areas where most bombs will be aimed; but, there will be parts of the world untouched by bombs which have a good likelihood of survival.
Look at Chernobyl and Fukushima. They were both huge nuclear events with only local lethal effects. 30 years later, Chernobyl is lush with life. This planet is more resilient than we think even if human stupidity is greater than we think.
I have a question. Do you think it’s moral to alter people’s minds without their consent? Do you think “the gods” would do such a thing?
My response (regarding the inviolate free will) was a little off target of the question..”…alter people’s minds…” regarding planetary evacuation. Hmmmmm…..frankly, I find the whole concept flabbergasting! We’re all going or none of us are going in such circumstance, there is no ‘choice’ (except the unsalvable whoever that is). Now how does a global population so relocated not notice? Well in the later mortal epochs, there is no need to pretend it didn’t happen….there’s simply an announcement…”Prepare for takeoff.” On more primitive or isolated worlds like our own? I am clueless! But a realization of such a transport event would certainly, I think, let the cat out of the bag about ‘who’s in charge’!!
I’ve always thought the quote was inserted (probably due to a Forumite’s query) to provide a sense of security and comfort. To speculate as to when and why (not to mention how!) such an extreme measure might be taken….I recall the worlds of the nonbreathers and the constant bombardment of meteors and asteroids. So I assumed (and not firmly or correctly) the issue was one of uncontrollable physical space potentials.
The Papers were written pre-nuclear age here on Urantia but I doubt its near term horizon was not unexpected at the time in its development and results.
I have speculated a great deal on how many times and which times the Reservists, Midwayers, Angels, and other planetary agents have inserted themselves in multiple ways to save the world from man-made global disasters. While humanity must progress by evolutionary and experiential growth, reason, and wisdom….nonetheless, I am convinced that the Most Highs do not allow any world to significantly destroy the Mortal Epochs progress achieved over thousands of generations by the absurd mistakes of a few in one generation (or 3). The probabilities of winning in EITHER the Pacific or Europe in WWII were very small….multiple serendipitous moments had to arrive at precise times and ways to deliver the outrageously small possibility of winning both theatres by an isolationist nation without a Navy or Air Force or Army or munitions of any capacity or strength….and yet this did indeed happen!
Our leaders do not define or truly determine the progress or status of the whole world. Growing up in the 50’s-70’s when the globe teetered on the brink of total nuclear annihilation and paranoia ran deep and unstable persons had their finger on the button, there was no rational or credible reason we did not blow up the world.
Except one…the hand of the gods. They did not stop the dropping of two on Japan or the multiple reactor melt downs since or the toxic waste and industrial deaths of workers and soldiers experimented upon. And Korea might vaporize for all I know. But something or someone besides wisdom and common sense has prevented total nuclear destruction so far. So I agree with Bonita….it ain’t going to happen! Lots of ways for our unseen friends to prevent it IMO.
That’s why I find the title of this thread far worse than sensationalism and attention seeking and fear mongering….it’s hysteria on ‘roids and worthy of only the lowest of motives and intentions. However, the content of the thread has become more interesting – save for the absurdity of the claim of mortals being “lab rats”….more falsehood denying free will and our being cherished children!
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