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MidiChlorian wrote: Just because one’s limitation in vision keeps you from seeing that which is, does not mean that there are others who can[not] see.
I see what you mean.
Thanks VanAmadon. I missed that one, and went back to correct it, as above.
Just because one’s limitation in vision keeps you from seeing that which is, does not mean that there are others who can see.
I see what you mean.
i think I’m missing a point here
sorry
i think I’m missing a point here
No you’re not missing anything. One point I’m sure you know: if someone has interactions with so-called visible deity, then their agondonter status is in the shredder . . . . not to mention a few other things.
Im curious: do you interact with visible deity?
my statement was within the realm of the planetary prince or Melchizedek or Adam and Eve. Beyond the incarnated sons, uplifters, I’m a bit out of touch I’m afraid.
One’s eye’s see one thing, and once the spirit within has been updated through the soul’s growth, the mind’s eye can augment or overlay that which may lay underneath or within the objects being viewed, through additional sensitivity from what is materially visible. Something like the first Sony Video Camcorders which were recalled because they needed to add filters to keep the recorded images from eliminating some clothing from subjects being recorded. Or, where some people can see all the color tones presented in the visual matrix’s used to determine color-blindness. The mind can present an associated mind image that can also be associated with personality patterns which can be isolated into individual traits. Whether one discerns what one see’s as being something else, would or may depend on the relationship that may also be involved. Either way, the term deity would be subjective to more spiritual understanding.
I have often wondered what Jesus was attempting to present in the following UB narration, which seems to differentiate between Himself and others? Where you mentioned some of these certain persons in your reply as well.
(1914.4) 176:2.3 In further answer to Peter’s question, Jesus said: “Why do you still look for the Son of Man to sit upon the throne of David and expect that the material dreams of the Jews will be fulfilled? Have I not told you all these years that my kingdom is not of this world? The things which you now look down upon are coming to an end, but this will be a new beginning out of which the gospel of the kingdom will go to all the world and this salvation will spread to all peoples. And when the kingdom shall have come to its full fruition, be assured that the Father in heaven will not fail to visit you with an enlarged revelation of truth and an enhanced demonstration of righteousness, even as he has already bestowed upon this world him who became the prince of darkness, and then Adam, who was followed by Melchizedek, and in these days, the Son of Man. And so will my Father continue to manifest his mercy and show forth his love, even to this dark and evil world. So also will I, after my Father has invested me with all power and authority, continue to follow your fortunes and to guide in the affairs of the kingdom by the presence of my spirit, who shall shortly be poured out upon all flesh. Even though I shall thus be present with you in spirit, I also promise that I will sometime return to this world, where I have lived this life in the flesh and achieved the experience of simultaneously revealing God to man and leading man to God. Very soon must I leave you and take up the work the Father has intrusted to my hands, but be of good courage, for I will sometime return. In the meantime, my Spirit of the Truth of a universe shall comfort and guide you.
Im curious: do you interact with visible deity?
my statement was within the realm of the planetary prince or Melchizedek or Adam and Eve. Beyond the incarnated sons, uplifters, I’m a bit out of touch I’m afraid.
One’s eye’s see one thing, and once the spirit within has been updated through the soul’s growth, the mind’s eye can augment or overlay that which may lay underneath or within the objects being viewed, through additional sensitivity from what is materially visible. Something like the first Sony Video Camcorders which were recalled because they needed to add filters to keep the recorded images from eliminating some clothing from subjects being recorded. Or, where some people can see all the color tones presented in the visual matrix’s used to determine color-blindness. The mind can present an associated mind image that can also be associated with personality patterns which can be isolated into individual traits. Whether one discerns what one see’s as being something else, would or may depend on the relationship that may also be involved. Either way, the term deity would be subjective to more spiritual understanding. I have often wondered what Jesus was attempting to present in the following UB narration, which seems to differentiate between Himself and others? Where you mentioned some of these certain persons in your reply as well.
(1914.4) 176:2.3 In further answer to Peter’s question, Jesus said: “Why do you still look for the Son of Man to sit upon the throne of David and expect that the material dreams of the Jews will be fulfilled? Have I not told you all these years that my kingdom is not of this world? The things which you now look down upon are coming to an end, but this will be a new beginning out of which the gospel of the kingdom will go to all the world and this salvation will spread to all peoples. And when the kingdom shall have come to its full fruition, be assured that the Father in heaven will not fail to visit you with an enlarged revelation of truth and an enhanced demonstration of righteousness, even as he has already bestowed upon this world him who became the prince of darkness, and then Adam, who was followed by Melchizedek, and in these days, the Son of Man. And so will my Father continue to manifest his mercy and show forth his love, even to this dark and evil world. So also will I, after my Father has invested me with all power and authority, continue to follow your fortunes and to guide in the affairs of the kingdom by the presence of my spirit, who shall shortly be poured out upon all flesh. Even though I shall thus be present with you in spirit, I also promise that I will sometime return to this world, where I have lived this life in the flesh and achieved the experience of simultaneously revealing God to man and leading man to God. Very soon must I leave you and take up the work the Father has intrusted to my hands, but be of good courage, for I will sometime return. In the meantime, my Spirit of the Truth of a universe shall comfort and guide you.
the way I interpret your comments about what ones eye sees is that our unique personalities play a roll in interpretation of our sensory inputs. Since no two personalities are alike, no two interpretations will be alike. If memory serves there is something in TUB about this??
I believe Jesus narration was a personal instruction to Peter trying to get him to let go of the chains of tradition that bind his mind.
No you’re not missing anything. One point I’m sure you know: if someone has interactions with so-called visible deity, then their agondonter status is in the shredder . . . . not to mention a few other things.
Are you indicating that those persons who interacted with Jesus, and who thought Him to be deity, were having an issue? And, being that the UB indicates that deity has visited this planet over time, might not present themselves in physical form, similar to Midwayer’s, which I believe you had some experience with? Believing without seeing is one thing, but to see from the mind’s eye is something else, and would require additional perspective from religious experience, which not everyone can either remember or have understood as such.
What ones eye sees is to me analogous to the uncertainty principle where the act of observation alters what is being observed and add to that the interpretation of unique personalities where no two are alike and it leaves one to wonder what is a valid observation/interpretation??
but this persons eye sees the material realities. I don’t understand how material observations can be trans-whatevered into a minds eye vision of a spiritual nature.
but I’m getting lost and need to take a break.
later.
An odd detour into the weeds. I think Midi that the quote you posted about Jesus telling the flock that others came before him and others will come after has nothing to do with eyesight or vision of the mortals. Jesus presents the fact of the Planetary Mortal Epochs and the many Sons who come to each planet in succession of epochal progress.
The Prince was/is not visible but the staff is incarnated physically as is Adam and Eve and as was Melchezidek. Our next Son will not be materially physical either. There has always been celestial attendance to our world and the midwayers since the Prince’s HQ so have the Midwayers. It is true that we are taught that the lower angels and the midwayers (both closest to mortals in material form on the scale of physicality) can be seen by some in certain situations we are told. And I’ve always wondered if the rebel midwayers or angels in their mischief might have been the source of some of those my ancestors call the “faire” and other forms of mythologies from before Jesus’ time when all such were removed.
Seeing the resurrected morontial form/body of Jesus required great assistance and his specific will to be so seen by those he chose to reveal himself to according to the Papers. This does not represent the “norm” for anyone else at any other time I do not think nor does/did it have anything to do with the beholder’s vision, sight, or eyes, etc.. Consider the powers of the Master Son of a Universe compared to any others?
189:4.11 (2027.1) These human eyes were enabled to see the morontia form of Jesus because of the special ministry of the transformers and the midwayers in association with certain of the morontia personalities then accompanying Jesus.
However, it’s an interesting topic so perhaps you might start a topic as I find it has little relevance to this one. Thank you. I do recall that finaliters are the only beings in all the universe of universes that have full vision of all beings from the highest spirit forms through all the many levels of morotia forms to the lowest material forms….we are unique in this functionality and vision capacity….eventually.
The agondonters have many unique traits and capabilities that prepare them for amazing forms of service in the current super universes and the locals. But I believe their true value and purpose will be even greater in the new levels of creation for when the Supreme has the grand jubilee of all current time and space being settled in Light and Life.
31:3.7 (348.4) 3. The glorified mortals of the Paradise Corps of Finality are ascendant beings in possession of experiential knowledge of every step of the actuality and philosophy of the fullest possible life of intelligent existence, while during the ages of this ascent from the lowest material worlds to the spiritual heights of Paradise, these surviving creatures have been trained to the limits of their capacity respecting every detail of every divine principle of the just and efficient, as well as merciful and patient, administration of all the universal creation of time and space.
31:3.8 (348.5) We deem that human beings are entitled to share our opinions, and that you are free to conjecture with us respecting the mystery of the ultimate destiny of the Paradise Corps of Finality. It seems evident to us that the present assignments of the perfected evolutionary creatures partake of the nature of postgraduate courses in universe understanding and superuniverse administration; and we all ask, “Why should the Gods be so concerned in so thoroughly training surviving mortals in the technique of universe management?”
When Thomas saw the morontia Jesus and declared that he believed, Jesus said to him:
191:5.5 “You have believed, Thomas, because you have really seen and heard me. Blessed are those in the ages to come who will believe even though they have not seen with the eye of flesh nor heard with the mortal ear.”
Pardon me Bradly for addressing what you have pointed out as being off topic but I believe it may help to point to this:
(181:2.20) And always remember, Philip, he who has seen me has seen the Father.”
I’m not sure it’s possible to see the Father without spiritual vision. Isn’t it that way that we see Jesus?
Well Van, we do see Jesus in spirit vision, but thanks to the Revelation we now see Jesus through a marvelous collection of narratives of his life, decisions, struggles, triumphs, sharing, modeling and ad infinitum, seemingly. With this new detail we see a hero we humans can relate to with admiration.
Thank you to all those personalities who delivered the details to Urantia.
The presence of God within the soul is something which is felt. This is because the presence of God within is acquired by spiritual insight. And in regards to spiritual insight, all we can do is discover, recognize, interpret and choose. Sight and insight are different.
But what is it exactly that we recognize when insight discovers the presence of God? We recognize personality . . . a personal presence. It’s a sense of “otherness”. It’s a personality to personality recognition phenomenon. Becoming conscious of the presence of another personality within your own mind is the beginning of God-consciousness. Even though the Adjuster is pre-personal, he has a personality presence, made clearer to us by the additional personality presences of the Holy Spirit and Spirit of Truth.
We know that Jesus once said that if we had our spiritual eyes anointed, we would be able to see angels ascending and descending. The question obviously becomes, what are spiritual eyes? And more importantly, what does it mean to have them anointed? Obviously, God himself does the anointing, and this is accomplished on spiritual levels when he, and only he, sees fit.
Spiritual vision is God’s vision, seeing eye to eye with him and doing his will. And it is even more important to remember that such occurrences are consistent with significant soul growth. Which is why they say that it will be a long time before Jesus’ second coming. When he comes every single person must be able to see him and only spiritual eyes are capable of such vision. In other words, when he comes we will see him with God’s eyes. Everyone must become God-conscious, feel his inner presence person-to-person, along with significant soul growth (by doing his will) to permit God to anoint their spiritual eyes.
True anointed spiritual vision is a rarity. Those who have it would be profoundly humbled by it. Just sayin’. And it’s not about seeing midwayers and angels, it’s about faith-vision. Faith-vision of the spiritualized mind is anointed vision which allows us to discern God within our very souls, face to face, eye to eye.
1:3.3 But it is not necessary to see God with the eyes of the flesh in order to discern him by the faith-vision of the spiritualized mind.
110:2.5 You as a personal creature have mind and will. The Adjuster as a prepersonal creature has premind and prewill. If you so fully conform to the Adjuster’s mind that you see eye to eye, then your minds become one, and you receive the reinforcement of the Adjuster’s mind.
91:3.7 Enlightened prayer must recognize not only an external and personal God but also an internal and impersonal Divinity, the indwelling Adjuster. It is altogether fitting that man, when he prays, should strive to grasp the concept of the Universal Father on Paradise; but the more effective technique for most practical purposes will be to revert to the concept of a near-by alter ego, just as the primitive mind was wont to do, and then to recognize that the idea of this alter ego has evolved from a mere fiction to the truth of God’s indwelling mortal man in the factual presence of the Adjuster so that man can talk face to face, as it were, with a real and genuine and divine alter ego that indwells him and is the very presence and essence of the living God, the Universal Father.
Spiritual vision is God’s vision, seeing eye to eye with him and doing his will. And it is even more important to remember that such occurrences are consistent with significant soul growth. Which is why they say that it will be a long time before Jesus’ second coming. When he comes every single person must be able to see him and only spiritual eyes are capable of such vision. In other words, when he comes we will see him with God’s eyes. Everyone must become God-conscious, feel his inner presence person-to-person, along with significant soul growth (by doing his will) to permit God to anoint their spiritual eyes.
True anointed spiritual vision is a rarity. Those who have it would be profoundly humbled by it. Just sayin’. And it’s not about seeing midwayers and angels, it’s about faith-vision. Faith-vision of the spiritualized mind is anointed vision which allows us to discern God within our very souls, face to face, eye to eye.
1:3.3 But it is not necessary to see God with the eyes of the flesh in order to discern him by the faith-vision of the spiritualized mind.
110:2.5 You as a personal creature have mind and will. The Adjuster as a prepersonal creature has premind and prewill. If you so fully conform to the Adjuster’s mind that you see eye to eye, then your minds become one, and you receive the reinforcement of the Adjuster’s mind.
Granted, what you say and present here is true, in the same sense that Agondonter’s can be considered as having “faith-vision of the spiritualized mind.”
Therefore, spiritual vision would not be the vision mentioned when said that the Agondonter, can believe without seeing, in that they believe because they see through spiritual vision, and might also be considered as finaliter’s.
50:7.2 (579.1) On Jerusem the ascenders from these isolated worlds occupy a residential sector by themselves and are known as the agondonters, meaning evolutionary will creatures who can believe without seeing, persevere when isolated, and triumph over insuperable difficulties even when alone. This functional grouping of the agondonters persists throughout the ascension of the local universe and the traversal of the superuniverse; it disappears during the sojourn in Havona but promptly reappears upon the attainment of Paradise and definitely persists in the Corps of the Mortal Finality. Tabamantia is an agondonter of finaliter status, having survived from one of the quarantined spheres involved in the first rebellion ever to take place in the universes of time and space.
When one takes into consideration that “agondonters” are “evolutionary will creatures”, who have evolved to the point of having “receive[d] the reinforcement of the Adjuster’s mind”, then could also be considered an “agondonter of finaliter status”, therefore, believing through seeing with “faith-vision”, which does not require the use of their material vision to see.
I think it is pointless to try to convince anyone that you *see* beyond the normal range of human vision. I would like to get back to faith which seems to me to be the heart of this topic. To me the Paradise ascent is a faith-adventure. And there is order to God’s plan. Consider this reference.
32:3.6[Part II]The farther down the scale of life we go, the more difficult it becomes to locate, with the eye of faith, the invisible Father. The lower creatures — and sometimes even the higher personalities — find it difficult always to envisage the Universal Father in his Creator Sons. And so, pending the time of their spiritual exaltation, when perfection of development will enable them to see God in person, they grow weary in progression, entertain spiritual doubts, stumble into confusion, and thus isolate themselves from the progressive spiritual aims of their time and universe. In this way they lose the ability to see the Father when beholding the Creator Son. The surest safeguard for the creature throughout the long struggle to attain the Father, during this time when inherent conditions make such attainment impossible, is tenaciously to hold on to the truth-fact of the Father’s presence in his Sons. Literally and figuratively, spiritually and personally, the Father and the Sons are one. It is a fact: He who has seen a Creator Son has seen the Father.I think we will actually see our Creator Son on Salvington as part of our ascension career. He’s the first person of God the Sevenfold:0:8.0 [. . .] the Universal Father has established the evolutionary creature’s sevenfold approach to Deity:.(11.6)0:8.2 1. The Paradise Creator Sons.
(11.7)0:8.3 2. The Ancients of Days.
(11.8)0:8.4 3. The Seven Master Spirits.
(11.9)0:8.5 4. The Supreme Being.
(11.10)0:8.6 5. God the Spirit.
(11.11)0:8.7 6. God the Son.
(11.12)0:8.8 7. God the Father.
It is by faith and attainment we achieve and recognize our Creator Son in person. And all the way to our Paradise Father.
Yes, agondonters are evolutionary will creatures, but there is nothing said in TUB about them receiving reinforcement of the Adjuster’s mind. We receive reinforcement of the Adjuster’s mind when we do God’s will. This is a sporadic event during our life in the flesh. Not until fusion do we get a permanent reinforcement of the Adjuster’s mind. No one currently walking on this earth is fused.When an agondonter evolutionary will creature, one who can believe without seeing, persevere when isolated and triumph over insuperable difficulties when alone, becomes a finaliter, it means that this same will creature has literally reached Paradise and literally seen the Universal Father face to face, eye to eye. It’s the final stage of the ascension career (hence finaliter). It’s something that takes millennia after millennia. No one physically walking this earth today can be considered a finaliter.
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