-
Posts
-
True love, as described in the UB, is of one source and one function (IMO) and must be given to be truly received.
Not sure what this means. Are you saying that there are conditions? Are you distinguishing between quantity and quality of God’s love? A little confused.
Always loved this quote from paper 111 and think it a s appropriate here.
THE HUMAN PARADOX Many of the temporal troubles of mortal man grow out of his twofold rela- tion to the cosmos. Man is a part of nature—he exists in nature—and yet he is able to transcend nature. Man is finite, but he is indwelt by a spark of infinity. Such a dual situation not only provides the potential for evil but also engenders many social and moral situations fraught with much uncertainty and not a little anxiety. The courage required to effect the conquest of nature and to transcend one’s self is a courage that might succumb to the temptations of self-pride. The mortal who can transcend self might yield to the temptation to deify his own self-consciousness. The mortal dilemma consists in the double fact that man is in bondage to nature while at the same time he possesses a unique liberty— freedom of spiritual choice and action. On material levels man finds himself subservient to nature, while on spiritual levels he is triumphant over nature and over all things temporal and finite. Such a paradox is inseparable from tempta- tion, potential evil, decisional errors, and when self becomes proud and arrogant, sin may evolve. The problem of sin is not self-existent in the finite world. The fact of finite- ness is not evil or sinful. The finite world was made by an infinite Creator—it is the handiwork of his divine Sons—and therefore it must be good. It is the misuse, distortion, and perversion of the finite that gives origin to evil and sin. The spirit can dominate mind; so mind can control energy. But mind can control energy only through its own intelligent manipulation of the metamorphic potentials inherent in the mathematical level of the causes and effects of the physical domains. Creature mind does not inherently control energy; that is a Deity prerogative. But creature mind can and does manipulate energy just in so far as it has become master of the energy secrets of the physical universe. When man wishes to modify physical reality, be it himself or his environ- ment, he succeeds to the extent that he has discovered the ways and means of controlling matter and directing energy. Unaided mind is impotent to influence anything material save its own physical mechanism, with which it is inescapably linked. But through the intelligent use of the body mechanism, mind can create other mechanisms, even energy relationships and living relationships, by the utilization of which this mind can increasingly control and even dominate its physical level in the universe.
True love, as described in the UB, is of one source and one function (IMO) and must be given to be truly received.
Not sure what this means. Are you saying that there are conditions? Are you distinguishing between quantity and quality of God’s love? A little confused.
The UB says that “God is love” and that love is: 56:10.21 (648.4) Love is the desire to do good to others. It does not limit it to only the highest form or quality of love as I understand it. There are multiple rungs on the ladder of the Golden Rule, not just the lowest and the highest, but even the lowest is still a form of love I think.
Key word search for “God is love”: http://www.urantia.org/search/book_search/%22God%20is%20love%22
No, I don’t think God’s love is conditional…but it’s reception is not the same as its availability. Perhaps I misremember but I recall that love cannot be received without its giving by the receiver….still looking for supporting text. The quality and quantity of God’s love is not the issue but the quality of mortal/ascender love is progressive from empathy to brotherly to fatherly…and yet all love is sourced from God….one source and one function. God’s love upholds and binds together all of reality, no? God is love and there is no love except by him, even the love given by all his creation one to another comes by and from God, yes? This is a circuit of love. The quantity and quality of our experience of love is determined by our maturity, experience, wisdom, and spirit progress is it not? The love given is pure and limitless but not our experience of it.
Can I actually receive and benefit from God’s love if I do not share and give love to others?
As far as confused….me too. A favorite saying I often repeat is….”If you’re not confused, then you’re not paying attention.”
Perhaps I misremember but I recall that love cannot be received without its giving by the receiver….still looking for supporting text.
Maybe, this is what you are looking for Bradly?
(1289.3) 117:6.10 All true love is from God, and man receives the divine affection as he himself bestows this love upon his fellows. Love is dynamic. It can never be captured; it is alive, free, thrilling, and always moving. Man can never take the love of the Father and imprison it within his heart. The Father’s love can become real to mortal man only by passing through that man’s personality as he in turn bestows this love upon his fellows. The great circuit of love is from the Father, through sons to brothers, and hence to the Supreme. The love of the Father appears in the mortal personality by the ministry of the indwelling Adjuster. Such a God-knowing son reveals this love to his universe brethren, and this fraternal affection is the essence of the love of the Supreme.
And, maybe this supports the other?
(50.4) 3:4.6 Mortal man cannot possibly know the infinitude of the heavenly Father. Finite mind cannot think through such an absolute truth or fact. But this same finite human being can actually feel — literally experience — the full and undiminished impact of such an infinite Father’s LOVE. Such a love can be truly experienced, albeit while quality of experience is unlimited, quantity of such an experience is strictly limited by the human capacity for spiritual receptivity and by the associated capacity to love the Father in return.
Can I actually receive and benefit from God’s love if I do not share and give love to others?
Well, as I understand it, we have love incarnate living in our minds/souls and it is given to us the moment we desire it and act upon that desire (first moral choice). I interpret this to mean that we already have God’s love . . . the full monty, so to speak . . . although we don’t have the capacity to recognize and appreciate the whole of it. The great circuit of love requires that we allow it to pass through our personality, which is how the Adjuster expresses himself in our lives (doing God’s will). The more we do God’s will, the more we cooperate in allowing the great circuit of love to flow, the more we grow and the more of God’s love we recognize and appreciate as a personal reality. And I think that is because we become a part of that love ourselves . . . part of the Supreme.
Here’s a thought: as the Urantia book is an epochal revelation, right up there with Jesus and the others, possibly its students can’t qualify for Agondonter status??
Thanks so much Midi…exactly the quote I was remembering!!
(1289.3) 117:6.10 All true love is from God, and man receives the divine affection as he himself bestows this love upon his fellows. Love is dynamic. It can never be captured; it is alive, free, thrilling, and always moving. Man can never take the love of the Father and imprison it within his heart. The Father’s love can become real to mortal man only by passing through that man’s personality as he in turn bestows this love upon his fellows. The great circuit of love is from the Father, through sons to brothers, and hence to the Supreme. The love of the Father appears in the mortal personality by the ministry of the indwelling Adjuster. Such a God-knowing son reveals this love to his universe brethren, and this fraternal affection is the essence of the love of the Supreme.
Gene – I’m sure I see the tongue in your cheek….but the first quote I posted indicates otherwise. We still have no on-planet, visible leadership or example and languish in true isolation. Besides, I haven’t met anyone who is a reader of the UB who first discovered God or faith by such studies. And I would assert that believing the UB requires a tremendous faith regardless of its presence on our world.
Someday however, leadership on our world will be re-established as we continue to progress to L&L. So, I do agree that there may come a time in the future mortal epochal progress that such standing and status may change….I do not know…but that is one of the points of speculation I originally inquired about to be sure.
To be clear though, finaliter status is plenty good for me. Just getting to the heavenly shore is plenty of reward for my faith. Someone said that Agondonter sounded more like work and responsibility than reward….hahaha….a good one that. Of course, God never gives more to be done than that which can be done….with God all things are doable that should be done.
Yes Bonita, each pint or quart has an ocean of love available to fill it and overflow it….based on our own capacity to receive, return, and give to others….that was my point too….as 3:4.6 above says: “…quantity of such an experience is strictly limited by the human capacity for spiritual receptivity and by the associated capacity to love the Father in return.”
Back to some of my questions regarding faith and the power of love as a form of its expression and experience and its power to bring forth the fruits of the Spirit and soul growth. I’ve been considering for some time now that a person’s love of others is indeed a form of faith and it is inherently transformative and is so regardless of one’s beliefs, knowledge, or their lack or their inaccuracies. So I ask again, is the reception and giving of Divine love one form of faith….or must declaration and understanding and knowledge of God required – is love an expression of faith? Can one give self forgetting love and be connected to God’s circuit of love and not have faith?
Bradly wrote: Can one give self forgetting love and be connected to God’s circuit of love and not have faith?It’s not possible to love others without loving God first. It’s from the Fatherhood of God that we get the brotherhood of man. First you dedicate yourself to the Father of the universe and to doing his will, then you dedicate your will to doing his will in order to serve the universe family, in which we are all faith-sons.
16:9.8 Unselfish social consciousness must be, at bottom, a religious consciousness; that is, if it is objective; otherwise it is a purely subjective philosophic abstraction and therefore devoid of love. Only a God-knowing individual can love another person as he loves himself.
5:4.3 God is not only the determiner of destiny; he is man’s eternal destination. All nonreligious human activities seek to bend the universe to the distorting service of self; the truly religious individual seeks to identify the self with the universe and then to dedicate the activities of this unified self to the service of the universe family of fellow beings, human and superhuman.
I’m not sure you and I share the same definition of the word faith, based on what you write here:
Bradly wrote: So I ask again, is the reception and giving of Divine love one form of faith….or must declaration and understanding and knowledge of God required – is love an expression of faith?Faith does not require understanding and knowledge. I think that faith is what happens when you lack understanding and knowledge. Understanding and knowledge has to do with facts, whereas faith has to do with truth. Truth is a relationship, an unseen, living relationship between all things and all persons material and supermaterial. None of us are capable of understanding the supermaterial level, therefore we live in faith, or living faith. I think it’s important to remember that faith is a gift. We don’t come by faith all on our own. We only have faith because God gives it to us. Faith involves prayer and worship, some connection to the living vine.103:5.9 It lifts man out of himself and beyond himself when he once fully realizes that there lives and strives within him something which is eternal and divine. And so it is that a living faith in the superhuman origin of our ideals validates our belief that we are the sons of God and makes real our altruistic convictions, the feelings of the brotherhood of man.Likewise, beliefs rise to the level of faith only when they spiritualize the believer. What does that mean? It means that the believer has discovered, recognized and interpreted the belief’s value within the soul. It means that it has risen from the level of the material human mind to the level of reality recognition, a recognition of a connection to spirit, the living vine.Although we cannot fully understand the supermaterial level of reality and all its relations, we can certainly discover, recognize and interpret it with the help of our souls and the spirit influences put there to assist us. It’s called spiritual insight. Faith-sons recognize this reality and live with the certainty that it is real without any proof other than what they experience within their souls. Faith-sons, once they discover and recognize this relationship, maintain a strong hold on it through living prayer and devout worship. They stay connected to the living vine of truth and everything they produce in their daily lives result from that. Their faith is a gift that comes from the relationship to the living vine.99:5.6 Any religious belief which is effective in spiritualizing the believer is certain to have powerful repercussions in the social life of such a religionist. Religious experience unfailingly yields the “fruits of the spirit” in the daily life of the spirit-led mortal.101:8.1 Belief has attained the level of faith when it motivates life and shapes the mode of living. The acceptance of a teaching as true is not faith; that is mere belief. Neither is certainty nor conviction faith. A state of mind attains to faith levels only when it actually dominates the mode of living. Faith is a living attribute of genuine personal religious experience. One believes truth, admires beauty, and reverences goodness, but does not worship them; such an attitude of saving faith is centered on God alone, who is all of these personified and infinitely more.
Without this connection there can be no loving service. There might be human-based affection and a desire to please, but it’s not spiritual fruit with eternal survivability. It’s social fruit that is sustainable only within a certain time frame. Social fruit is pleasant and nice, but it lacks the spiritual drawing power of spiritual fruit. Spiritual fruit can only come from doing God’s will. It is true that some people do God’s will without being conscious of it. It is possible and probable.107:04 Every mortal who is consciously or unconsciously following the leading of his indwelling Adjuster is living in accordance with the will of God.34:5.4 When mind is thus endowed with the ministry of the Holy Spirit, it possesses the capacity for (consciously or unconsciously) choosing the spiritual presence of the Universal Father – the Thought Adjuster.So, I guess are you asking if people might have faith in God the Father without realizing that they actually have such a thing. My guess is that it can happen but it’s unlikely to last long without growth. Spiritual growth will eventually reveal the Source, the living vine. Perhaps that’s when some people have their Damascus Road Moment and become God-conscious (born again) . . . I don’t know. But since faith is a gift, I suppose people can have it in their souls but not be progressed enough to recognize it with their material mind. They may still suffer from dual allegiance: denying God with their material minds, while at the same time their souls are doing everything possible to nurture a relationship between the material mind and God.The soul will attempt to grow in and of itself, but it will starve to death without moral input from the material mind. The soul has two parents, material and spiritual, and I’m certain that it will use all the resources possible to compel the human mind to stay connected to the vine, consciously or unconsciously, until it grows to such a size that soul-consciousness is possible. (A naturally occurring soul-consciousness comes from slow growth and no Damascus Road Moment is necessary.) Sooner or later, I would think, there has to be a birth of God-consciousness and sonship awareness, or at least a willingness to admit to perfection hunger on some level.150:9.2 The transformations of grace are wrought in response to the living faith of those who are the beneficiaries.Well . . . as usual I talk too much. Hopefully I haven’t talked in circles and confused the issue even more.Gene wrote: Here’s a thought: as the Urantia book is an epochal revelation, right up there with Jesus and the others, possibly its students can’t qualify for Agondonter status??Oh no! The Urantia Book is a book filled with ideas, concepts, pathways to truth . . . but it is not living truth. The authors tell us that they rely on unseen supramaterial indwelling spirits to assist us in discovery, recognition and interpretation of their words. Without a connection to those spirit influences the book is no better than a dictionary. Faith is definitely required in order to gain any benefit from TUB other than intellectual knowledge of facts. We’re even asked to have faith in its supermaterial origin and its divine purpose to enlighten. How many doubt it?? Almost everyone without faith.
Agondonters must have super-faith — faith stronger than those on “normal” planets who rely on visible deity to interact with and fortify their faith in an unseen God.
Difficult to imagine a visible deity to interact with. Earthlings would still be looking for some supernatural event, a miracle, before developing enough faith to allow interaction, no?
like so many people who soundly rejected Jesus.
i suppose that without defaults these visible deities would have been so deeply ingrained in the planet since primitive times that things would be quite different in regard to acceptance and interaction.
i suppose that without defaults these visible deities would have been so deeply ingrained in the planet since primitive times that things would be quite different in regard to acceptance and interaction.
So very true. But instead what’s ingrained is the legacy of rebellion. Lodged so deep that it’s as if it’s a part of our DNA. Treated like it’s normal, taken for granted and accepted.
i suppose that without defaults these visible deities would have been so deeply ingrained in the planet since primitive times that things would be quite different in regard to acceptance and interaction.
So very true. But instead what’s ingrained is the legacy of rebellion. Lodged so deep that it’s as if it’s a part of our DNA. Treated like it’s normal, taken for granted and accepted.
Me here: Yes, also true….it is part of our DNA and it is our “normal” so how can it not be accepted? What’s the contrast? How is anyone to know the difference? What’s Plan B? And how’s that working? Great issues to consider!
Let us remember that the Most Highs rule, even on worlds darkened and isolated by the “legacy of rebellion”. 4000 years ago our planetary rulers and ministers sent Machiventa to declare monotheism….and our world changed. 2600+/- years ago came a sudden emergence of religious acceleration through the teachings of Mel’s Missionaries and Big Mac’s teachings, so long before which infected whole populations and cultures to aspire to new perspective of reality. 2000 years ago came our universe’s Creator Son who began a spiritual and religious revolution and blessed us with the Son’s Spirit of Truth. Those ministries and seasons of progress propelled our world forward through the Mortal Epochs in spite of our “legacy” of ignorance, primitivism, rebellion, false liberty, darkness, and hundreds of thousands of years of such a “legacy”.
Now comes the 5th Epochal Revelation….2 failures and 2 success….and our world has The Record of fact, history, and the truth of our real legacy and destiny to come!!! What a fantastic story! What a comfort and inspiration! The “norm” is evolutionary and progressive. And Urantia enjoys this norm despite all prior failures, obstacles, and challenges. Of all the peoples of our world, UB students should be the most thrilled to serve such a destiny.
But now, I am most inspired by those faithful believers who live in love and faith and strive to serve their brethren only in response to the Spirit within. While our world is filled with those who love and those who live in faith and those who demonstrate the truth of the Spirit within and those for whom self forgetting service is their personal priority and all do so DESPITE all material and temporal reasons otherwise, this tadpole is humbled by the courage and brilliance of so many of our brethren on Urantia…today and in our history! The Bible gives us many stories to consider. Can’t wait to see the records of those who came before and after – the Great Agondonters of our world’s history!
Plan B appears to be working amazingly well, don’t you think? (“you” being us all) It makes me wonder what the yeast and mustard seed of the latest Epochal Revelation might deliver in the coming generations. I cannot exaggerate the wisdom and power and genius of those who rule and minister to our world…now the Shrine of Nebadon.
IMO it would be a grave error, especially now, to focus on the shadows of evil, those vestiges of our dark past, when WE have the proof of its illusory distraction of temporal effect and ultimate failure to provide more than a delay and detour for those who are truly in charge.
The most “cursed” are really the most “blessed”….and the last shall be first. What believer and student of the Revelation is not thrilled, awed, and inspired by our true “legacy”? Guess it depends on your perspective of reality.
= )
Bonita says above: So, I guess are you asking if people might have faith in God the Father without realizing that they actually have such a thing. My guess is that it can happen but it’s unlikely to last long without growth. Spiritual growth will eventually reveal the Source, the living vine. Perhaps that’s when some people have their Damascus Road Moment and become God-conscious (born again) . . . I don’t know. But since faith is a gift, I suppose people can have it in their souls but not be progressed enough to recognize it with their material mind. They may still suffer from dual allegiance: denying God with their material minds, while at the same time their souls are doing everything possible to nurture a relationship between the material mind and God.
BINGO!!!!!
Oh Bonita….thank you. And please never apologize for your determination to understand, share, and teach. I love you and your persistent and patient voice of scholarship and spiritual insight. You have been my most cherished mentor and fellow student these past years. I am sorry when I confound you by my inarticulations and confusions…and yet you persist to serve me and indulge me in my confusions and many inquiries. Thank you for such graciousness!
Let us consider a few billion trillion mortals in the universes of time. In the early, primitive and barbaric epochs and on those worlds cursed/blessed by rebellion/isolation….there is love. I am minded to recall the cave man in full fury, savage and ignorant, standing before the mouth of the cave holding his precious, family facing down a ferocious threat…to those he LOVED. No TA, no SOT, no example, no nothing. I have witnessed little children (my own in peace and comfort but many in catastrophe and suffering including starvation, deprivation, starvation even) share, give comfort, serve, and sacrifice in selfless and self forgetting love and service to others, even to their own detriment and temporal threat. What the heck is THAT???!!!
And there are those who very reasonably reject the evolutionary religions and priests who defile truth, beauty, and goodness and their gods and methods and demands, but who do not reject LOVE. These ones represent every Mortal Epoch and yet RESPOND to the Holy Spirit with and without TA and/or the Spirit of Truth. These are blind to fact and knowledge but exhibit loyalty, sacrifice, generosity, and great personal sacrifice.
LOVE. What is the relationship of such “unreasonable” self forgetting love to faith?
I would propose that love is God’s secret sauce that infects, potentially any mind on any world in any generation of any Mortal Epoch. From every Andon and Fonta on every world through every generation, regardless of any and all other factors and influences and evolutionary progressions. Love is its own power and cause and effect.
How, I wonder does this relate to “faith”?
Thanks again for all you do. = )
100:4.5 (1098.2) In the mind’s eye conjure up a picture of one of your primitive ancestors of cave-dwelling times — a short, misshapen, filthy, snarling hulk of a man standing, legs spread, club upraised, breathing hate and animosity as he looks fiercely just ahead. Such a picture hardly depicts the divine dignity of man. But allow us to enlarge the picture. In front of this animated human crouches a saber-toothed tiger. Behind him, a woman and two children. Immediately you recognize that such a picture stands for the beginnings of much that is fine and noble in the human race, but the man is the same in both pictures. Only, in the second sketch you are favored with a widened horizon. You therein discern the motivation of this evolving mortal. His attitude becomes praiseworthy because you understand him. If you could only fathom the motives of your associates, how much better you would understand them. If you could only know your fellows, you would eventually fall in love with them.
How many options are there for changing our DNA?
How do you let God know you believe? Is it the words that come out of our mouths? Does belief impact DNA?
What about our free will choice? Is that how rebellious type stuff got into our DNA eons ago? Is this how we rearrange the double helix?
im not convinced it’s a genetic thing
Bradly wrote: I have witnessed little children (my own in peace and comfort but many in catastrophe and suffering including starvation, deprivation, starvation even) share, give comfort, serve, and sacrifice in selfless and self forgetting love and service to others, even to their own detriment and temporal threat. What the heck is THAT???!!!Hey Bradley, thanks for the kudos. But you know I love talking about this stuff so I have to thank you for giving me the opportunity to blather on. Your question above requires an essay, but the simple answer begins with personality, a gift directly from God . . . I’ll elaborate later, if you want. But first, I want to address this:
Bradly wrote: LOVE. What is the relationship of such “unreasonable” self forgetting love to faith?As simply as I can explain: Faith is a gift . . . love is the result of accepting the gift. Should I write an essay on that too? You know I certainly can and will, but I’m a little embarrassed by the way I hog the boards sometimes, so let me know if you want it.
Login to reply to this topic.
Not registered? Sign up here.