-
Posts
-
Cole wrote: I have read Paper 53 many times and have always wondered about the number posted at the end of the paragraph (see below). It states that roughly 200 Million mortals were on Jerusem at the installation of Lucifer’s successor. If this is the total number of mortal ascenders on Jerusem….it seems small. . . .
I re-read this topic to see if I could see where the discussion went off the rails. A number of people chimed in on the topic. Everyone was respectful of the opinions of others up to about the middle of page three.
Why is it several people on this forum ruin a good topic by either directly or indirectly insinuate that the opinion/s of others are to be dismissed? Several people agreed with your idea Cole. I enjoyed the discussion, but for me the ones who lowered the discussion to the personal level tarnished it. You and all of us deserve respect, even if we do not agree about the interpretation of UB material. The people who have disrespected you know who they are.
28:6.20 And the manifestation of greatness on a world like Urantia is the exhibition of self-control. The great man is not he who “takes a city” or “overthrows a nation,” but rather “he who subdues his own tongue.”
. . . and one must also presume that the requirements for fusion (which are great) are also those for survival.
Another brilliant observation Bradly. I’m wondering how many forget what it was like as a six year old with a budding moral consciousness. These seventh circlers survive. Not to mention the children who die before they even enter the seventh circle who are also saved. That’s almost everyone.
110:6.16 A seventh or sixth circler can be almost as truly God-knowing—sonship conscious—as a second or first circler, but such lower circle beings are far less conscious of experiential relation to the Supreme Being, universe citizenship. The attainment of these cosmic circles will become a part of the ascenders’ experience on the mansion worlds if they fail of such achievement before natural death.
Cole wrote: I have read Paper 53 many times and have always wondered about the number posted at the end of the paragraph (see below). It states that roughly 200 Million mortals were on Jerusem at the installation of Lucifer’s successor. If this is the total number of mortal ascenders on Jerusem….it seems small. . . .
I re-read this topic to see if I could see where the discussion went off the rails. A number of people chimed in on the topic. Everyone was respectful of the opinions of others up to about the middle of page three. Why is it several people on this forum ruin a good topic by either directly or indirectly insinuate that the opinion/s of others are to be dismissed? Several people agreed with your idea Cole. I enjoyed the discussion, but for me the ones who lowered the discussion to the personal level tarnished it. You and all of us deserve respect, even if we do not agree about the interpretation of UB material. The people who have disrespected you know who they are.
28:6.20 And the manifestation of greatness on a world like Urantia is the exhibition of self-control. The great man is not he who “takes a city” or “overthrows a nation,” but rather “he who subdues his own tongue.”
Sorry you feel this way Mara…and I have “disrespected” no one….or not intentionally. And where have I been “personal”…..I acknowledged that multiple people embraced Cole’s proposition….and let us be clear: it is a proposition; a proposal/contention that a preconception (and I think an interesting misconception founded in both our Judaic and Christian “special people” psychosis that is perpetuated by some UB readers) held in one’s mind is somehow verified by the Revelation. I contend that proposition and preconception seeking verification is presented for discussion and debate, including the motive for the preconception and that evidence which contradicts BOTH the motive and reasoning of the proposition made.
Cole has no reason to feel persecuted or to attack either myself or Bonita….which he clearly did. No big deal…his overreaction and self defensive reflex….we all do it. But truly….this is not personal….but the issue is important. Why would someone think survival is rare? What’s the UB evidence to support it? And does it really? That was the question.
As Bonita has pointed out multiple times (thanks Bonita!!!!!), I have asked and made some very reasonable points about such preconceptions, their potential sources and reasonable extensions of logical consideration for such opinions, and posted multiple quotes and issues regarding the topical proposition that so few survive in this entire System and Local Universe. I find the proposition faulty and concerning relative to it’s source (not the person….the concept is common enough….which makes it a great topic of discussion and debate) and the proposed “evidence” in the Revelation. I think the whole proposition completely contradictory to the premise, point, and contents of the Revelation….just my opinion of course…but one I’m willing to explore….perhaps with too much enthusiasm??
Like we have discussed in the Paper 100 discussion….conflict and consternation are where truth so often hides for our discovery. Those uncomfortable with conflict will also avoid much to embrace and learn. Being a student requires a rigorous review of our preconceptions and prejudices….I am willing to examine mine…..
I will attempt to keep a civil tone and be less confrontational….if that helps? But no apologies….but thanks for the criticism and rebuke – I’m sure it was appropriate in your opinion.
Like we have discussed in the Paper 100 discussion….conflict and consternation are where truth so often hides for our discovery. Those uncomfortable with conflict will also avoid much to embrace and learn.
I wholeheartedly agree with this. Allowing yourself to become excessively emotional over a philosophical conflict then projecting your irritated feelings onto others; or, succumbing to fear by taking your ball and running to your safe space, is unproductive. It allows conflict itself to get the upper hand rather than the urges within a spiritualizing personality. The personality is not benefited one bit by either slothfully avoiding conflict or defensively spitting in its face; both are immature reactions. Conflict in the mind is proof that something is not right. The problem must be solved. Since new meanings only emerge out of conflict, conflict should be welcomed and worked out. Refusal to embrace new meanings which emerge from conflict is a kind of warfare within the personality, and that sort of thing never ends well.
111:4.11 All conflict is evil in that it inhibits the creative function of the inner life—it is a species of civil war in the personality.
100:4.2 The slothful animal mind rebels at the effort required to wrestle with cosmic problem solving.
132:3.4 There is never conflict between true knowledge and truth. There may be conflict between knowledge and human beliefs, beliefs colored with prejudice, distorted by fear, and dominated by the dread of facing new facts of material discovery or spiritual progress.
And yes, I agree with you Bradly. Cole defensively spit at you with his/her mirror comment, and that is a personal attack, which I pointed out, only to be spit at myself and called a troll. It’s sad to see someone defending name calling as acceptable behavior. Very sad.
Let me begin this continuation of topical examination with a clear shout out to Cole, Mark606, Paul, and Carl who have each and all agreed with Cole’s proposition of a low mortal/tadpole survival rate, not only from Urantia but also the System, and perhaps universally depending on rebellion effects and/or the mortal epoch stage or planetary maturity of the material worlds (this latter point is not clear and I don’t wish to put words into other’s mouths)….but it seems clear that some think survival to be more of an exception and small ratio of those born on the material worlds. Others seem undecided or uncommitted but engaged in reasoned questions and comments. I find all posters on the issue to be experienced students and capable of presenting their own thoughts and beliefs and discussing the sources of information in support of such beliefs.
I would contend that none of those who do so believe in this low survivor ratio are now or were first convinced of this belief by the quote posted by Cole….the 200 Million Mortal Ascenders on Jerusem…but already held this belief and find the quote in question additional “evidence” supporting this prior belief. And several alluded to this by saying there is other evidence in the UB which supports such belief. I look forward to that!!! As I said earlier, this general belief and speculation that survival rates are low is not unusual among the student body and I find it something of great interest personally as to why and how such perception is so common. I find it interesting mostly because it is so diametrically opposed to my own perspective of the general and specific teachings of the UB (and the 4th Epochal Revelation known as the Jesusonian Gospel known to us for the past 2000 years) and so generally and specifically reflective of beliefs of my childhood church regarding selectivity and doctrinal conformance for salvation.
This is very personal to me….too personal….and for that I DO apologize for inappropriate fervor/passion in what I hope to be an open and honest discussion and discovery of what the UB teaches….even if I am to be challenged and disappointed in my own perspective and hopes in the matter.
So….I find four general foundational concepts which support the proposition of low survivor rates:
First: the historical Judaic and Christian teachings that only certain and few people are worthy of salvation as measured by the embrace or not of creeds, doctrines, ceremonies, beliefs, and practices which qualify the few over the many. This has gone to such an extreme that many so-called Christian sects believe all other Christians are going to hell if not within a more exclusive group whose beliefs and believers are superior. Some limit the total number of worthy souls to 144,000 even…don’t know if that is total or per generation? Anyway….many if not most “believers” measure all others by their own set of requirements for salvation (survival of death)….UB students are not immune from such a perspective.
Second: There is a very human tendency to judge the planetary situation harshly and to thereby judge people…..in large groupings and as individuals of great difference (or small difference) perceived in comparison to ourselves. The world is going to hell and its obviously so and so’s fault….look at how ‘they’ act and what ‘they’ do. This is VERY common among the UB student body…or so I’ve noticed over the decades and especially so the last 7 years on multiple UB discussion forums….many people are very disappointed in our world and the people of the world and have strong opinions as what others are and are not doing and should and should not be doing. Some UB students think the UB is a form of emergency intervention to prevent the end of times and doom and damnation of the world….yes, this belief is unfortunately proposed by Revelation Readers. So….human despair and impatience makes for a harsh judge on 7 billion souls.
Third: There is a belief (given and defended here by Cole…and others) that the requirements for fusion are the same as for survival. This can only be the result of lack of time in the text or the lack of discernment of the manifold and clearly articulated differences in the two sets of requirements. One may not fuse without a rigorous personal religious experience requiring intentional and deliberate acts and significant personal growth of soul and wisdom and adoption of the highest forms of the Paternal Nature and Love….indeed this path is narrow and the requirements/demands are severe. And yet, small children give birth to soul as do barbarian tree and cave dwellers, naked and filthy and illiterate and primitive tree worshipers and cannibals and killers. Yet some UB students apply the standards of fusion upon all people and condemn the vast majority of God’s children to eternal oblivion and do so despite all the UB evidence to the contrary.
Fourth: And the most delicate of issues I think…is the self superiority required to so judge so many others by our own standards of religious requirements and beliefs….the lack of humility required to judge so many others seems obvious to me but evidently not so much with others. Again, this is all too common among UB readers. There is a group know as “The Circle Counters” who claim to know their own circle progress (oh yes…and that of others too!!), whether they have a personal guardian (and who does not), sometimes their membership in the destiny reservist corps. (and their right and power to recruit others into this very special service unit of great acclaim!), some even claim to have voluntarily delayed fusion here in loyal service to the planet’s current emergency correcting time….some even claim to be Gabriel or Michael or Mighty Messengers. A friend of mine who worked at 533 for years tells me hardly a week went by without some Jesus or another showing up to claim the property and movement for himself. One day when Jesus showed up, he had to be told he’d need to wait his turn today for another Jesus was already in the building!!!! So UB students are hardly immune to our humanistic tendencies to compare others to ourselves and find others lacking thereby.
To be clear….I don’t accuse anyone here of any specific motivation in their perspective….but that view that concludes that few survive this material life is a most interesting perspective. I look forward to additional discussion on the topic. There have been many issues raised and not answered. A basic one is for those math and statistical analytics who have not yet proposed the ratio for sleeping slumbering pilgrims awaiting dispensational roll calls to third circlers…is it a million to one? Or a hundred to one? And then, on those worlds approaching L&L how many fuse on planet and have an abbreviated System experience afterward? It would seem that those who bypass and those in slumber would be an important factor in such calculations. If one is looking for some evidence to help substantiate the prior held belief that very few survive the material life….then any evidence might do I think…..regardless of all the evidence to the contrary even.
I think it important to identify, specify, and consider everything in the UB that some think supports this notion of a very low and naturally limiting survival ratio…and to consider that which indicates otherwise too.
What is faith…truly? How does faith create soul and grow soul without knowledge or beliefs that are true? How is the love response connected to soul and faith? How inaccurate or disconnected can mind be and still the soul grow and faith and worship be engaged? How do children and barbarians give birth to soul and survive and fuse? Because they do you know…………………
How high is the standard for the material children of time who live such a brief life without benefit of example and knowledge for God’s love to deliver survival to those worlds designed for the very purpose of receiving such little ones for education and rehabilitation? What again is the purpose of these receiving worlds? Certainly not to receive those worthy of and ready for fusion!
I think it important to identify, specify, and consider everything in the UB that some think supports this notion of a very low and naturally limiting survival ratio…and to consider that which indicates otherwise too.
This question of what is required to survive is of personal interest to everyone. But why would any of us think we can answer it for another? that we can estimate how many will survive besides ourselves? In the superuniverses only the Ancients of Days have the wisdom, knowledge, and insight to pass divine judgement upon the survival status of each individual mortal. The authors certainly could give us a definite answer to it, since they have access to the relevant records, but they do not share this with us. A far more important question than whether few or many will survive, one which should be very carefully pondered, is why those who are above us steadfastly refuse to give us a direct answer to this question.
This question can be a dangerous one for faith. One of the key contentions of Lucifer was that everyone would survive, if it weren’t for the unjust acts of the executioners of the Ancients of Days.
He contended that the executioners of the Ancients of Days could be debarred from functioning in the local systems if the native beings would only assert their independence. He maintained that immortality was inherent in the system personalities, that resurrection was natural and automatic, and that all beings would live eternally except for the arbitrary and unjust acts of the executioners of the Ancients of Days. (53:3.5)
He argued this proved that the Paradise Father did not exist, since a good God would not allow such a gross injustice. And many were persuaded by this emotional appeal to the supposed injustice being done to innocent mortals. And on this planet in this day many argue that faith in God is misplaced, because if God existed and was good, he would never permit the suffering and death of so many who are blameless.
The one and only point I am making here is that we cannot know, reason out, or judge some things. Some matters belong exclusively to God, like whether few or many will survive. It is unwise to think that if we have faith we can answer all questions.
As I said earlier, this general belief and speculation that survival rates are low is not unusual among the student body and I find it something of great interest personally as to why and how such perception is so common.
I agree,there are a lot of people who see the world, and the people in it, as essentially evil and therefore unworthy of salvation. I blame this on thousands of years of the cultural burden that arose from the belief in original sin. Clearly we are still evolving away from that viewpoint of humanity. Some still cling to traditional collective concepts, perhaps without even realizing it. They do tell us that revelation is evolutionary (92:4.1). In other words, it takes time to sink in, and when it does, it often wedges itself between old ideas, which take additional time to get crowded out (141:6.2; 132:04).
Fourth: And the most delicate of issues I think…is the self superiority required to so judge so many others by our own standards of religious requirements and beliefs….the lack of humility required to judge so many others seems obvious to me but evidently not so much with others. Again, this is all too common among UB readers. There is a group know as “The Circle Counters” who claim to know their own circle progress (oh yes…and that of others too!!), whether they have a personal guardian (and who does not), sometimes their membership in the destiny reservist corps. (and their right and power to recruit others into this very special service unit of great acclaim!), some even claim to have voluntarily delayed fusion here in loyal service to the planet’s current emergency correcting time….some even claim to be Gabriel or Michael or Mighty Messengers. A friend of mine who worked at 533 for years tells me hardly a week went by without some Jesus or another showing up to claim the property and movement for himself. One day when Jesus showed up, he had to be told he’d need to wait his turn today for another Jesus was already in the building!!!! So UB students are hardly immune to our humanistic tendencies to compare others to ourselves and find others lacking thereby.
This is really nauseating. I can’t understand why people insist on holding onto their delusions and illusions. Such deceptions are so detrimental to psychic and spiritual health. Spiritual pride is actually Luciferian, the biggest delusion of all.
163:6.6 And now, while I would not quench your spirit of rejoicing, I would sternly warn you against the subtleties of pride, spiritual pride. If you could understand the downfall of Lucifer, the iniquitous one, you would solemnly shun all forms of spiritual pride.
Excellent points George!!
I was hoping someone would point out the logic paradox of the issue.
If we know most everyone survives, then where’s the incentive to strive for fusion and transfer the seat of identity rather than become self indulgent pleasure seekers?
If we know that very few survive, then how does one manage anxiety and doubt and fear and the need to “save” others from damnation or at least oblivion??
A certain knowledge of this outcome would eliminate complexities of paradox for our faith to overcome in considering cosmic problems:
100:4.2 (1097.6) Religious perplexities are inevitable; there can be no growth without psychic conflict and spiritual agitation. The organization of a philosophic standard of living entails considerable commotion in the philosophic realms of the mind. Loyalties are not exercised in behalf of the great, the good, the true, and the noble without a struggle. Effort is attendant upon clarification of spiritual vision and enhancement of cosmic insight. And the human intellect protests against being weaned from subsisting upon the nonspiritual energies of temporal existence. The slothful animal mind rebels at the effort required to wrestle with cosmic problem solving.
Jesus was asked the question if many or few will survive in paper 166 section 3. He essentially said that as many who want to survive will survive, that it’s entirely a personal matter. Free choice determines whether or not a person survives, not the Ancients of Days. And because Jesus himself is the way to salvation, and because Jesus is the good shepherd who seeks out every single one of his lost sheep, I’m absolutely sure that he won’t give up on anyone. It’s rather the other way around, people give up on him. How many people give up 100% on Jesus? I sincerely doubt there are many. Of course only God knows, he who can see into the soul and knows exactly what’s going on in there. Since I’m not God, I have to assume that most people are willing to accept Jesus on some level, and that’s enough for salvation.
Free choice determines whether or not a person survives, not the Ancients of Days.
The idea of being judged is not a pleasant one. Nevertheless, there is no survival without the judgment of the Ancients of Days.
Free choice determines whether or not a person survives, not the Ancients of Days.
The idea of being judged is not a pleasant one. Nevertheless, there is no survival without the judgment of the Ancients of Days.
Don’t think so George….non-survival is the jurisdiction of the Ancients, not survival…. I think….I’m researching!
112:3.2 (1229.9) 1. Spiritual (soul) death. If and when mortal man has finally rejected survival, when he has been pronounced spiritually insolvent, morontially bankrupt, in the conjoint opinion of the Adjuster and the surviving seraphim, when such co-ordinate advice has been recorded on Uversa, and after the Censors and their reflective associates have verified these findings, thereupon do the rulers of Orvonton order the immediate release of the indwelling Monitor.
54:3.3 (615.5) But if this universe rebel against the reality of truth and goodness refuses to approve the verdict, and if the guilty one knows in his heart the justice of his condemnation but refuses to make such confession, then must the execution of sentence be delayed in accordance with the discretion of the Ancients of Days. And the Ancients of Days refuse to annihilate any being until all moral values and all spiritual realities are extinct, both in the evildoer and in all related supporters and possible sympathizers.
54:5.7 (617.7) 6. The Ancients of Days could have immediately annihilated these rebels, but they seldom execute wrongdoers without a full hearing. In this instance they refused to overrule the Michael decisions.
Not to quibble…but for the sake of accuracy….I believe it is the TA’s that determine mortal survival and the Circle Status to also determine the length of slumber prior to reawakening. And it is reflectivity that absolutely represents the mind of all creatures to Havona and the Ancients. Mortals are first measured by the TA and our soul content. Only annihilation and self erasure are in the hands of the Ancients…but hey I could be wrong…happens all the time!! = )
If we know most everyone survives, then where’s the incentive to strive for fusion and transfer the seat of identity rather than become self indulgent pleasure seekers?
Isn’t the incentive LOVE? I think those who are only concerned about their own survival are being rather self-centered. Transfer of the seat identity is about LOVE.
My 2 cents:
Don’t you think that post Pentecost survival rates differ somewhat from the time of the installation of Lucifer’s successor?
What was Urantia population then? How long ago was that? Couple hundred thousand years?Is Jerusem time space situation similar to Urantia?
What I get from the 53:7.12 quote is a bit different.
“And on Salvington, Uversa, and Paradise when this message of assurance that survival experience of mortal ascension is the greatest security against rebellion and the surest safeguard against sin.”
I’ll stop the quote here because for one thing we have not survived mortal death yet but sincere believers have survived rebellion and better understand the nature of sin.
Isn’t this a more meaningful message than numbers?
Also, I think the message is coming from Salvington, Uversa, and Paradise – not going there from Jerusem???
Also I think the surviving mortals mentioned is reference to a limited group of individuals. Imho.Don’t think so George….non-survival is the jurisdiction of the Ancients, not survival…. I think….I’m researching!
Actually, if the Ancients of Days decide who does not survive, then they obviously decide who is and who is not resurrected – who does survive.
Login to reply to this topic.
Not registered? Sign up here.