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It’s not for us to judge these things.
When tempted to speculate about these things, I stop. I recall the famous story about the brigand who was crucified next to Jesus. (187:4.2 ) Personality survival is on a case by case basis which basis is dependent upon the person who is doing the choosing. Anyone can change his/her mind (choose God/Jesus) as long as the ability to think is functioning.
5:1.8[Part I]The Father desires all his creatures to be in personal communion with him. He has on Paradise a place to receive all those whose survival status and spiritual nature make possible such attainment. Therefore settle in your philosophy now and forever: To each of you and to all of us, God is approachable, the Father is attainable, the way is open; the forces of divine love and the ways and means of divine administration are all interlocked in an effort to facilitate the advancement of every worthy intelligence of every universe to the Paradise presence of the Universal Father.While of course I don’t know the final truth of the matter, at the moment I end up aligning with those who think that the rate of survival at this time in our system is low. In part this is because I find the implied mathematics and dynamics in alternative explanations of the Jerusem population numbers to be unsatisfying, in part because some of the quotes of Jesus others have posted in this thread make no logical or rhetorical sense to me if a low rate of survival is not the case.
At least as significant to me, however, is that so much of what is often counted as piety and virtue in humanity has far more to do than with things like good ol’ primate group-identity politics, biological temperament, and evolutionary culture than is generally given credit.
Regarding the “primate politics” part, I’m always reminded of the lyrics of Buffalo Springfield:
…A thousand people in the street
Singing songs and carrying signs
Mostly saying, “hooray for our side”I suspect that it’s going to be no small problem for some on the mansion worlds regarding who survives and who does not, given how much “education” and “being informed” in this world consists to no small extent in assimilating and regurgitating what is little more than in-group propaganda, with its cast of villains and heroes. Combine that with all the rigors of the ascension experience that others have previously mentioned, and combine it with what most believers here seem to expect about the afterlife, and that inclines me to the view that survival is more the exception than the rule in our local system.
My sense is that, as with a number of things, it is impossible to judge survival potential at the individual level but not necessarily at the group level. For example, the demographic I work with for part of the year is composed of people from relatively affluent, educated, and biologically/culturally solid families. They are fine, competent people in many ways and I often feel a bit awkward just being around them. Nonetheless I rarely if ever anything that strikes me as saving faith in them, and not even much interest in the issue of salvation, and I’m constantly on the lookout for those things. I’m sure I miss indications of saving faith in some of them since my faith-dar isn’t exactly perfect, but the sword of uncertainty always cuts both ways, and that implies that I only think I see it in some where I do sense it. So it’s probably a wash. Looking at these people as an aggregate, I can find no reason to believe that many if not most will not make it. I see no indication that eternal survival is even a concern! I’d have to state things differently when considering a wider spectrum of humanity, but the general idea regarding individuals and aggregates still applies.
Lastly I would say that the trait of being “subnormal minded”, which in the UB does not bode well for survival potential, does not necessarily mean what would now be called “developmentally disabled.” For example, IQ is only part of what the revelators mean with the term “subnormal” but I think it’s an acceptable proxy for present purposes. Depending to some extent on how the numbers are run, world population averages around a not-exactly-stellar 85. There are sizable countries and regions where the average is considerably less than 85 on our not-exactly-intellectually-gifted Urantia. There are entire nations where the average is at the level of mild mental retardation even by our planetary standards. The usual assumption among UB readers, in my experience, is to assume that “subnormal-minded” means relatively severe mental retardation (as such would normally be found in the developed world) but I see no reason to think that this is the case.
What I am getting at is that it is quite possible that being subnormal-minded in the manner that prevents or at least greatly impedes survival potential just in itself, before choice even enters the picture, may well be the case for a much larger percentage of the population than is generally assumed by readers. Even in those areas of the world where even the average IQ is at the level of mild mental retardation, most people have animated conversations, make music, go about very human tasks, etc.. Indeed, while I don’t think this is the case, “subnormal minded” could mean about half the earth’s population.
The whole relationship between intelligence and affluence/culture as they relate to survival is highly complex, and I don’t want to be glib about it. I just want to submit some some further factors for consideration.
For what it’s worth.
I suspect that it’s going to be no small problem for some on the mansion worlds regarding who survives and who does not, given how much “education” and “being informed” in this world consists to no small extent in assimilating and regurgitating what is little more than in-group propaganda, with its cast of villains and heroes. Combine that with all the rigors of the ascension experience that others have previously mentioned, and combine it with what most believers here seem to expect about the afterlife, and that inclines me to the view that survival is more the exception than the rule in our local system.
While I do not disagree with the perspective that our society tends to be quite ‘in-group propaganda’ driven, I do not think our world is unique in that regard. I expect that is a very common state of societies throughout the many local systems and universes. In fact, I expect this very in-group propaganda was very much in evidence at the time of the Caligastia and Lucifer rebellion, which affected many worlds, not just our own. “Rigors of the ascension experience” and unrealistic expectations of the afterlife (or lack of interest therein), is also very likely to be common on other worlds.
While I do not disagree with the perspective that our society tends to be quite ‘in-group propaganda’ driven, I do not think our world is unique in that regard. I expect that is a very common state of societies throughout the many local systems and universes. In fact, I expect this very in-group propaganda was very much in evidence at the time of the Caligastia and Lucifer rebellion, which affected many worlds, not just our own. “Rigors of the ascension experience” and unrealistic expectations of the afterlife (or lack of interest therein), is also very likely to be common on other worlds.
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I agree. And as you may be implying, I think this is all the more reason to take seriously the possibility that at that time survival rates were quite low in this local system then and now.
I should also mention that I’m of the school that it seems unlikely that the revelators would have provided population numbers for ascenders on Jerusem that were not in line with the average. The numbers weren’t essential to the narrative and it’s not hard to see that giving the count for an extreme without further contextualization would be seriously misleading.
…the entirety of time and space is designed for the ascension experience
Although I don’t wish to comment further on the topic of survival, I would like to make a rather belated response to the above comment about the ascension experience.
It is unlikely that it’s all about us mortals. The UB implies there are seven prime purposes in the universes of time and space, of which the mortal ascension scheme is only one. There are few references to this but one is made in Paper 106, where it mentions our “… ignorance of the six prime purposes of superuniverse development which do not pertain to the mortal ascent to Paradise.” (106.0.10)
Also, in the section about Unrevealed Angels, it is implied there are seven orders of angels (or angel-like creatures), of which only one ministers to mortals in the ascension plan (38.3.1). And there is at least one reference to Unrevealed Ascenders (30:1.54), which implies they are other-than-mortal.
Mortals are no doubt special – but not that special.
But speculation can be fun too!
Speculation is great fun. Consider that even the highest orders of beings engage in speculation. In the book, we see Divine Counselors, Solitary Messengers, and Mighty Messengers speculating on the truths of the universe.
Philosophy is a form of speculation, as is scientific theory. However, as Bradley implied, it does need to be reasonable. The strength of our speculations relies only on our reason and logic, as well as the strength of our premises, for there are always premises. We will be speculating about the universe and its truths all the way to Paradise. And even there the Masters of Philosophy will guide us into further speculation.
“Never do you climb so high or advance so far that there do not remain a thousand mysteries which demand the employment of philosophy in an attempted solution.” 27.6.1
Mark states:Philosophy is a form of speculation, as is scientific theory. However, as Bradley implied, it does need to be reasonable.I agree.30:0.2[Part I]It is not possible to formulate comprehensive and entirely consistent classifications of the personalities of the grand universe because all of the groups are not revealed. It would require numerous additional papers to cover the further revelation required to systematically classify all groups. Such conceptual expansion would hardly be desirable as it would deprive the thinking mortals of the next thousand years of that stimulus to creative speculation which these partially revealed concepts supply. It is best that man not have an overrevelation; it stifles imagination.There are a few areas wherein the book discourages useless speculation about certain specific issues revealed….but IMO, the lines above and others seem to indicate that we should use our imagination, be interested in God and creation, and, as appropriate, speculate/philosophize. I would hate to see this revelation become just one more of the Urantia religious texts wherein every jot and tittle is, as many bible enthusiasts believe about that text, the final word of God. A good example of extensive speculation conducted by a reader is contained with A Study of the Master Universe and then again, in the Appendices.So….came across this while studying another topic at another forum. I must say I remain mystified, truly baffled by those claims that survival is rare. This is apparently not true even during the most primitive, barbaric, and earliest of the Mortal Epochs. One must ignore the birth of soul and the evolutionary mind ministry of the Adjutants and spirit ministry of the Holy Spirit to deliver the birth of soul and the first faith expressions and natural worship of soul itself to believe such a claim. One must have a very narrow definition of faith expression and love response to bring such limits and limitations to bear. One must also have a dim view of humanity even today which superimposes personal definitions and requirements of faith and the flicker and one must also presume that the requirements for fusion (which are great) are also those for survival. An odd mixture of required perspective to consider survival a rarity….which also assumes the ascension plan has a very high failure rate and at the same time makes those who do survive seemingly superior to so many others.
I find the exercise distasteful and repugnant personally. The quote of 200 million is a small piece of non-evidence for a preconception with little support in the Revelation….just sayin’.
Perhaps it would be helpful to consider the possible meanings of “God-seeking” and who that might include and exclude….and what is the spectrum of behaviors and hopes that might be defined by “manifest willingness” and “exhibit a desire to find God”. What do those quotes mean? For one must truly limit their definitions by some real personal prejudice to conclude how empty are the mansion worlds and what a failure is God’s universe ascension plan for the mortals of time and space.
Paper 85 – The Origins of Worship is recommended to expand our concept perception of the broad spectrum of the definitions of religious experience and to better appreciate how primitive still today is much of human religious experience. It is a mistake for the more enlightened and informed mind to over-judge and eternally condemn our less enlightened brothers and sisters on this world and on any other. Or so I think. The UB is a great gift of hope and a beacon of God’s love for us all….no matter how stupid, ignorant, primitive, fearful, confused, or lost….God never quits on finding the one lost sheep and never stops loving, caring, forgiving, and shepherding us home. To say the UB teaches otherwise misses the point altogether.
40:5.9 (445.10) Mortals of series one inhabit the worlds of space during the earlier epochs of the evolution of mankind and embrace the most primitive types of human minds. On many worlds like pre-Adamic Urantia great numbers of the higher and more advanced types of primitive men acquire survival capacity but fail to attain Adjuster fusion. For ages upon ages, before man’s ascent to the level of higher spiritual volition, the Adjusters occupy the minds of these struggling creatures during their short lives in the flesh, and the moment such will creatures are indwelt by Adjusters, the group guardian angels begin to function. While these mortals of the first series do not have personal guardians, they do have group custodians.
40:5.10 (446.1) An experiential Adjuster remains with a primitive human being throughout his entire lifetime in the flesh. The Adjusters contribute much to the advancement of primitive men but are unable to form eternal unions with such mortals. This transient ministry of the Adjusters accomplishes two things: First, they gain valuable and actual experience in the nature and working of the evolutionary intellect, an experience which will be invaluable in connection with later contacts on other worlds with beings of higher development. Second, the transient sojourn of the Adjusters contributes much towards preparing their mortal subjects for possible subsequent Spirit fusion. All God-seeking souls of this type achieve eternal life through the spiritual embrace of the Mother Spirit of the local universe, thus becoming ascending mortals of the local universe regime. Many persons from pre-Adamic Urantia were thus advanced to the mansion worlds of Satania.
40:5.19 (447.4) As to the chances of mortal survival, let it be made forever clear: All souls of every possible phase of mortal existence will survive provided they manifest willingness to co-operate with their indwelling Adjusters and exhibit a desire to find God and to attain divine perfection, even though these desires be but the first faint flickers of the primitive comprehension of that “true light which lights every man who comes into the world.”
6. The Faith Sons of God
40:6.1 (447.5) The mortal races stand as the representatives of the lowest order of intelligent and personal creation. You mortals are divinely beloved, and every one of you may choose to accept the certain destiny of a glorious experience, but you are not yet by nature of the divine order; you are wholly mortal. You will be reckoned as ascending sons the instant fusion takes place, but the status of the mortals of time and space is that of faith sons prior to the event of the final amalgamation of the surviving mortal soul with some type of eternal and immortal spirit.
As quoted in the post above:
One must have a very narrow definition of faith expression and love response to bring such limits and limitations to bear. One must also have a dim view of humanity even today which superimposes personal definitions and requirements of faith and the flicker and one must also presume that the requirements for fusion (which are great) are also those for survival.
Really? Seems quite judgmental towards several people that you do not even know. Do you own a mirror?
As quoted in the post above:
One must have a very narrow definition of faith expression and love response to bring such limits and limitations to bear. One must also have a dim view of humanity even today which superimposes personal definitions and requirements of faith and the flicker and one must also presume that the requirements for fusion (which are great) are also those for survival.
Really? Seems quite judgmental towards several people that you do not even know. Do you own a mirror?
How very hilariously ironic!!! Yes indeed…some here are quite judgmental towards billions, even trillions of people they don’t even know. Based on what? Besides a preconception seeking confirmation where none exists. Very funny. I have both a mirror and a sense of humor…and a keen appreciation for the Good News in our collective hands….and not looking to condemn and judge so many by my own limited understanding of faith, love, mercy, patience, religious experience, and the purpose, plan, and power of those in whose care we abide.
. . . and at the same time makes those who do survive seemingly superior to so many others.
I think you nailed it.
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Yes, you two nailed it –NOT. You just cannot see the irony of YOUR positions. Rather than simply present your position(s), you just cannot resist engaging in snarky, thinly-veiled ad hominem attacks that falsely accuse others of being judgmental and having dim/narrow views — and in this case, because they do not agree with you opinion that survival is prevalent.
I have read some of the historical posts and see that this tact is not new. I suggest you both find something more meaningful for your time. Trolling is not becoming thereof.
Do you own a mirror?
Hmmm.
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Yes, Bonita….I knew you could not resist another snarky/trolling reply. Hmmmmmm…….
And odd mixture of required perspective to consider survival a rarity….which also assumes the ascension plan has a very high failure rate and at the same time makes those who do survive seemingly superior to so many others.
Brilliant observation Bradly. The idea that the ascension plan is faulty, that it fails to save large numbers of God’s creatures, is rather Luciferian in my opinion. So is the pride of spiritual superiority.
I would hate to see this revelation become just one more of the Urantia religious texts wherein every jot and tittle is, as many bible enthusiasts believe about that text, the final word of God.
I certainly agree it would be a shame if the 5th Epochal Revelation and most important and wonderful book ever printed/published in our history were to become “just one more…religious text”. As students know, the UB is not the word of God, final or otherwise. And yet, it is not to be easily dismissed or distorted by the sincere religionist who seeks to apply the facts of history and the friendly universe we live in as a great assist to the pilgrim’s path to Paradise….for those who believe the claims of its authors….and those sincere truth seekers who can find truth in many forms and places.
Study groups such as this one can be immensely helpful to those serious students wishing to understand the contents of the UB and broaden the horizons of perspective in the personal pursuit of truth, beauty, and goodness.
Despite this recent disagreement on the mortal survival rate, I have enjoyed the discussion and the discovery. Best wishes and in good humor…
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