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They make it clear right at the beginning of Paper 111 that many ancient people actually got the idea of the soul correct.
I’m not sure of what you are referring too, where in the preface to PAPER 111 (111:0.*) it mentions or gives many examples. Are you indicating that this section and these “ancient peoples” did not believe in the pre-existence of the “soul”?
But if the soul is immortal, rather than mortal, would it not have pre-existed prior to it birth? Does not a fetus exist before birth, thereby at birth, become separated from its mother and become independent life. Therefore, an embryonic soul, is pre-existent-soul waiting for birth.
Then if the human mind can be associated with a or the soul, then would the following quote not indicate that something does not spring into existence from nothing, that there is a method and that even “Mind can be derived only from pre-existent mind.” And that these components are made through “the activating living spark.”
(403.7) 36:6.2 Things material may enjoy an independent existence, but life springs only from life. Mind can be derived only from pre-existent mind. Spirit takes origin only from spirit ancestors. The creature may produce the forms of life, but only a creator personality or a creative force can supply the activating living spark.
But also, I’m not sure as to your use of the following statement:
That being said . . . gnosticism has done a great deal to confuse people on this issue. I don’t think it’s a coincidence that this revelation appeared around the time of the resurfacing of gnostic texts once buried away in the sands of time.
Where there’s that dirty word again, “gnosticism”, and that you say that these doctrine “confuse people” regarding what “issue”? Are you referring back to Paper 111?
Then there is that which follows where I assume that you are referring to the Nag Hammadi Library, and the Dead Sea Scrolls, but the first three books of the UB came along far before these, and where the publication would seem to have been delayed on the reception of the Jesus Papers, and even still those codex’s which were uncovered where not made available until long after. So, are you implying that the Urantia Book was published on account of the finding of these archives, to discredit them in some way? I can understand that Gnosticism may confuse you but there is substantial information presented therein, but keep in mind that the discovery of these libraries and scrolls were not the only text available, where many were released from the Vatican Library, in the late nineteenth century, and some later. I don’t see a problem with any text, as long as it is used to study other documents or doctrine to compare context.
I’m not sure of what you are referring too, where in the preface to PAPER 111 (111:0.*) it mentions or gives many examples. Are you indicating that this section and these “ancient peoples” did not believe in the pre-existence of the “soul”? But if the soul is immortal, rather than mortal, would it not have pre-existed prior to it birth? Does not a fetus exist before birth, thereby at birth, become separated from its mother and become independent life. Therefore, an embryonic soul, is pre-existent-soul waiting for birth.
Me here: The soul is not immortal Midi – only potentially so. Which further refutes your claim of its pre-existence. If it were pre-existent it would not be personal – unless you also claim reincarnation(?). There is hardly any point in arguing the matter…the UB is very clear in many ways about this topic, so we must conclude that you simply disagree with that clarity of the UB’s clearly written position and cling to your own cosmic construct. That’s okay; but if you claim that any form of soul pre-existence is stipulated or articulated in text, please post those quotes for our education. The principal function of the universes appears to be the plan of mortal ascension and each mortal is a unique presentation of the gifts of mind, personality, and free will to provide for the birth of the individual soul for the collection and unification of experiential and survivable values chosen by the individual by the circuitry of spirit ministry. For the soul to become immortal (again it is only potentially so upon its birth) it must fuse with an Adjuster or Father Fragment. So, if one believes in fusion, then from whence comes a supposed immortal soul for all the mortals born in all the worlds of time and space?
Regarding the ancients and soul:
(1215.2) 111:0.2 The concept of a soul and of an indwelling spirit is not new to Urantia; it has frequently appeared in the various systems of planetary beliefs. Many of the Oriental as well as some of the Occidental faiths have perceived that man is divine in heritage as well as human in inheritance. The feeling of the inner presence in addition to the external omnipresence of Deity has long formed a part of many Urantian religions. Men have long believed that there is something growing within the human nature, something vital that is destined to endure beyond the short span of temporal life.
(1215.3) 111:0.3 Before man realized that his evolving soul was fathered by a divine spirit, it was thought to reside in different physical organs — the eye, liver, kidney, heart, and later, the brain. The savage associated the soul with blood, breath, shadows and with reflections of the self in water.
(1215.4) 111:0.4 In the conception of the atman the Hindu teachers really approximated an appreciation of the nature and presence of the Adjuster, but they failed to distinguish the copresence of the evolving and potentially immortal soul. The Chinese, however, recognized two aspects of a human being, the yang and the yin, the soul and the spirit. The Egyptians and many African tribes also believed in two factors, the ka and the ba; the soul was not usually believed to be pre-existent, only the spirit.
It should not be surprising that the more ancient peoples still had more truth in the teachings of Dalmatia and the Garden and many of those teachings became degenerated and distorted over time by the oral traditions required to sustain them. Many of those examples are also articulated in the UB to demonstrate legends, fables, and scriptures that originated from facts taught long, long ago.
The soul is not immortal Midi – only potentially so.
“So”, So what, are you saying here, that the UB is stating lies, where “immortal soul” is listed 53 time. If you would actually study the book instead of posting imbedded deceptive opinion, which may or may not be of your on volition, you might see that the pen is mightier than the double edged sword of a forked tongue.
Yet you take on to answer questions addressed to others and still do not answer them but through innuendo by implying that all other interpretations are false but one, based on literal segmented statement, where context is overshadowed by the individual word contained within. So, it would seem that a disseminating debate is not such but an argument of who is right and wrong, thereby no longer a debate but a pulpit.
It should not be surprising that the more ancient peoples still had more truth in the teachings of Dalmatia and the Garden and many of those teachings became degenerated and distorted over time by the oral traditions required to sustain them. Many of those examples are also articulated in the UB to demonstrate legends, fables, and scriptures that originated from facts taught long, long ago.
If you actually made sense of your natation above, and read some of what you wrote, and applied it to actually reading some of the authors of the so called ancients mentioned in the UB, whereby being able to present substance other than conjecture, I might regard the narration above as valid, but I can only compare, that which is in my library, and what has passed through and over the visual page read. Then would there be some meeting of the mind’s and not as understood as “legends, fables, and scriptures that originated from facts”, where I await the fact you propose here, if you can?
I have never and would not ever claim the UB contains lies or even inconsistencies Midi. But it is certainly possible for me to misstate, misinterpret, or misrepresent the Revelation in my fallibility….but not on either of these topics (the potential immortality of soul vs. the absolute immortality; and the many facts presented in Dalmatia, The Garden, and Machiventa that have carried on throughout human history from a factual presentation by celestials long, long ago. The UB is full of such examples….and the soul is the most replete presentation in the text. It is not my scholarship or lack thereof on display here Midi. Happy to oblige your request but perhaps it best we do so on another topical thread. Bonita started this one focused on the Adjutants.
(8.10) 0:5.10 4. Soul. The soul of man is an experiential acquirement. As a mortal creature chooses to “do the will of the Father in heaven,” so the indwelling spirit becomes the father of a new reality in human experience. The mortal and material mind is the mother of this same emerging reality. The substance of this new reality is neither material nor spiritual — it is morontial. This is the emerging and immortal soul which is destined to survive mortal death and begin the Paradise ascension.
(63.4) 5:1.6 If mortal man is wholeheartedly spiritually motivated, unreservedly consecrated to the doing of the Father’s will, then, since he is so certainly and so effectively spiritually endowed by the indwelling and divine Adjuster, there cannot fail to materialize in that individual’s experience the sublime consciousness of knowing God and the supernal assurance of surviving for the purpose of finding God by the progressive experience of becoming more and more like him.
(64.2) 5:1.11 Mortal man may draw near God and may repeatedly forsake the divine will so long as the power of choice remains. Man’s final doom is not sealed until he has lost the power to choose the Father’s will. There is never a closure of the Father’s heart to the need and the petition of his children. Only do his offspring close their hearts forever to the Father’s drawing power when they finally and forever lose the desire to do his divine will — to know him and to be like him. Likewise is man’s eternal destiny assured when Adjuster fusion proclaims to the universe that such an ascender has made the final and irrevocable choice to live the Father’s will.
(64.3) 5:1.12 The great God makes direct contact with mortal man and gives a part of his infinite and eternal and incomprehensible self to live and dwell within him. God has embarked upon the eternal adventure with man. If you yield to the leadings of the spiritual forces in you and around you, you cannot fail to attain the high destiny established by a loving God as the universe goal of his ascendant creatures from the evolutionary worlds of space.
(65.2) 5:2.6 The entire experience of Adjuster communion is one involving moral status, mental motivation, and spiritual experience. The self-realization of such an achievement is mainly, though not exclusively, limited to the realms of soul consciousness, but the proofs are forthcoming and abundant in the manifestation of the fruits of the spirit in the lives of all such inner-spirit contactors.
(1232.5) 112:5.4 Human beings possess identity only in the material sense. Such qualities of the self are expressed by the material mind as it functions in the energy system of the intellect. When it is said that man has identity, it is recognized that he is in possession of a mind circuit which has been placed in subordination to the acts and choosing of the will of the human personality. But this is a material and purely temporary manifestation, just as the human embryo is a transient parasitic stage of human life. Human beings, from a cosmic perspective, are born, live, and die in a relative instant of time; they are not enduring. But mortal personality, through its own choosing, possesses the power of transferring its seat of identity from the passing material-intellect system to the higher morontia-soul system which, in association with the Thought Adjuster, is created as a new vehicle for personality manifestation.
(1233.1) 112:5.5 And it is this very power of choice, the universe insignia of freewill creaturehood, that constitutes man’s greatest opportunity and his supreme cosmic responsibility. Upon the integrity of the human volition depends the eternal destiny of the future finaliter; upon the sincerity of the mortal free will the divine Adjuster depends for eternal personality; upon the faithfulness of mortal choice the Universal Father depends for the realization of a new ascending son; upon the steadfastness and wisdom of decision-actions the Supreme Being depends for the actuality of experiential evolution.
(1237.6) 112:7.4 When fusion with the Adjuster has been effected, there can be no future danger to the eternal career of such a personality. Celestial beings are tested throughout a long experience, but mortals pass through a relatively short and intensive testing on the evolutionary and morontia worlds.
(1237.7) 112:7.5 Fusion with the Adjuster never occurs until the mandates of the superuniverse have pronounced that the human nature has made a final and irrevocable choice for the eternal career. This is the at-onement authorization, which, when issued, constitutes the clearance authority for the fused personality eventually to leave the confines of the local universe to proceed sometime to the headquarters of the superuniverse, from which point the pilgrim of time will, in the distant future, enseconaphim for the long flight to the central universe of Havona and the Deity adventure.
(1238.1) 112:7.6 On the evolutionary worlds, selfhood is material; it is a thing in the universe and as such is subject to the laws of material existence. It is a fact in time and is responsive to the vicissitudes thereof. Survival decisions must here be formulated. In the morontia state the self has become a new and more enduring universe reality, and its continuing growth is predicated on its increasing attunement to the mind and spirit circuits of the universes. Survival decisions are now being confirmed. When the self attains the spiritual level, it has become a secure value in the universe, and this new value is predicated upon the fact that survival decisions have been made, which fact has been witnessed by eternal fusion with the Thought Adjuster. And having achieved the status of a true universe value, the creature becomes liberated in potential for the seeking of the highest universe value — God.
(1238.2) 112:7.7 Such fused beings are twofold in their universe reactions: They are discrete morontia individuals not altogether unlike seraphim, and they are also beings in potential on the order of the Paradise finaliters.
(1238.3) 112:7.8 But the fused individual is really one personality, one being, whose unity defies all attempts at analysis by any intelligence of the universes. And so, having passed the tribunals of the local universe from the lowest to the highest, none of which have been able to identify man or Adjuster, the one apart from the other, you shall finally be taken before the Sovereign of Nebadon, your local universe Father. And there, at the hand of the very being whose creative fatherhood in this universe of time has made possible the fact of your life, you will be granted those credentials which entitle you eventually to proceed upon your superuniverse career in quest of the Universal Father.
(1238.4) 112:7.9 Has the triumphant Adjuster won personality by the magnificent service to humanity, or has the valiant human acquired immortality through sincere efforts to achieve Adjusterlikeness? It is neither; but they together have achieved the evolution of a member of one of the unique orders of the ascending personalities of the Supreme, one who will ever be found serviceable, faithful, and efficient, a candidate for further growth and development, ever ranging upward and never ceasing the supernal ascent until the seven circuits of Havona have been traversed and the onetime soul of earthly origin stands in worshipful recognition of the actual personality of the Father on Paradise.
(1027.1) 94:0.1 THE early teachers of the Salem religion penetrated to the remotest tribes of Africa and Eurasia, ever preaching Machiventa’s gospel of man’s faith and trust in the one universal God as the only price of obtaining divine favor. Melchizedek’s covenant with Abraham was the pattern for all the early propaganda that went out from Salem and other centers. Urantia has never had more enthusiastic and aggressive missionaries of any religion than these noble men and women who carried the teachings of Melchizedek over the entire Eastern Hemisphere. These missionaries were recruited from many peoples and races, and they largely spread their teachings through the medium of native converts. They established training centers in different parts of the world where they taught the natives the Salem religion and then commissioned these pupils to function as teachers among their own people.
(1042.1) 95:0.1 AS INDIA gave rise to many of the religions and philosophies of eastern Asia, so the Levant was the homeland of the faiths of the Occidental world. The Salem missionaries spread out all over southwestern Asia, through Palestine, Mesopotamia, Egypt, Iran, and Arabia, everywhere proclaiming the good news of the gospel of Machiventa Melchizedek. In some of these lands their teachings bore fruit; in others they met with varying success. Sometimes their failures were due to lack of wisdom, sometimes to circumstances beyond their control.
(1043.7) 95:2.1 The original Melchizedek teachings really took their deepest root in Egypt, from where they subsequently spread to Europe. The evolutionary religion of the Nile valley was periodically augmented by the arrival of superior strains of Nodite, Adamite, and later Andite peoples of the Euphrates valley. From time to time, many of the Egyptian civil administrators were Sumerians. As India in these days harbored the highest mixture of the world races, so Egypt fostered the most thoroughly blended type of religious philosophy to be found on Urantia, and from the Nile valley it spread to many parts of the world. The Jews received much of their idea of the creation of the world from the Babylonians, but they derived the concept of divine Providence from the Egyptians.
Me here: And there is far more evidence much earlier than Melchizedek’s teaching that reached every tribe and nation with their roots from the Garden, Van, and Dalmatia before that. This is hardly new or surprising or controversial so far as I know…..we are the result of those who came before us. Thankfully, the UB gives far more detail than our written records due to how recent such human records are of the divine ministry of planetary epochal upliftment that we have certainly enjoyed!!
By the way Midi – I really appreciate your insistence on text verification of any and all claims or contentions by students, especially here on this Forum. My wife and I are always “playing” the put up or shut up game of proving or substantiating any claim made by either of us – “Prove It” is a fun way to drive us into the Revelation and verify perspective and memory or to change perspective accordingly. I am happy to participate in such truth discovery and fact verification. But you know what they say – what’s good for the goose is good for the gander. So now it’s your turn to provide substantiating text.
To be clear, I claim:
The mortal self has no pre-existence.
The soul has no pre-existence.
The mortal self originates the soul by our first moral choice on the planet of birth.
The soul is not immortal until it achieves fusion with the TA.
Fusion assures immortality of the self and soul.
Much of the legends, fables, and scriptures of old originate from the factual teachings of celestials upon the earth and are verified by the UB in its narration of history.
The mortal self has no pre-existence.
The soul has no pre-existence.
The mortal self originates the soul by our first moral choice on the planet of birth.
The soul is not immortal until it achieves fusion with the TA.
Fusion assures immortality of the self and soul.
This is my understanding, as well. Our soul is co-creation of our identity and our Thought Adjuster.
“The material self has personality and identity, temporal identity; the prepersonal spirit Adjuster also has identity, eternal identity. This material personality and this spirit prepersonality are capable of so uniting their creative attributes as to bring into existence the surviving identity of the immortal soul.
“Having thus provided for the growth of the immortal soul and having liberated man’s inner self from the fetters of absolute dependence on antecedent causation, the Father stands aside. Now, man having thus been liberated from the fetters of causation response, at least as pertains to eternal destiny, and provision having been made for the growth of the immortal self, the soul, it remains for man himself to will the creation or to inhibit the creation of this surviving and eternal self which is his for the choosing. No other being, force, creator, or agency in all the wide universe of universes can interfere to any degree with the absolute sovereignty of the mortal free will, as it operates within the realms of choice, regarding the eternal destiny of the personality of the choosing mortal. As pertains to eternal survival, God has decreed the sovereignty of the material and mortal will, and that decree is absolute.” (71.2) 5:6.7
But you know what they say – what’s good for the goose is good for the gander. So now it’s your turn to provide substantiating text.
OK, let me get your expert opinion on the following UB quotes:
(531.5) 47:2.1 The infant-receiving schools of Satania are situated on the finaliter world, the first of the Jerusem transition-culture spheres. These infant-receiving schools are enterprises devoted to the nurture and training of the children of time, including those who have died on the evolutionary worlds of space before the acquirement of individual status on the universe records. In the event of the survival of either or both of such a child’s parents, the guardian of destiny deputizes her associated cherubim as the custodian of the child’s potential identity, charging the cherubim with the responsibility of delivering this undeveloped soul into the hands of the Mansion World Teachers in the probationary nurseries of the morontia worlds.
(531.6) 47:2.2 It is these same deserted cherubim who, as Mansion World Teachers, under the supervision of the Melchizedeks, maintain such extensive educational facilities for the training of the probationary wards of the finaliters. These wards of the finaliters, these infants of ascending mortals, are always personalized as of their exact physical status at the time of death except for reproductive potential. This awakening occurs at the exact time of the parental arrival on the first mansion world. And then are these children given every opportunity, as they are, to choose the heavenly way just as they would have made such a choice on the worlds where death so untimely terminated their careers.
It would or could be said that the “probationary nursery” has been established for infants who had experienced death, on an evolutionary world, where these infants where not old enough to act out or make a first moral decision, and receive a thought adjuster. Regardless of the development of this infant, it would be considered as not having passed through, what you have considered as the birth of the soul. But, if the birth of the soul is dependent on this event, WHY would the narration use the phrase above, “delivering this undeveloped soul” where regardless of the birth factor and that fact that the cherubim is given “the responsibility of delivering” this non-soul, as you would put it, call it a “soul”. Would it not be logical to say that “if it looks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, it must be a duck”, or in this case a “soul”.
There is a lot of information in the section of the UB which is extremely interesting in that as you read on you would see that these infants, as they get older, and if they don’t choose a specific way or path, they are eliminated as though they had not been, no exceptions, but one way to choose. I wonder if these infants, as they grow older are given this information before they make that choice?
Very interesting questions Midi and also perplexing to me. I do not claim any expertise Midi but I appreciate the compliment; I am but a serious student for some decades now and well read. But I have not penetrated the text so deeply as many others with more education and insight I have studied with or read their reflections and understandings. So I rely heavily on the text itself to explain itself as best I can.
I doubt these children are given much education about the choices to come but, rather, are raised in an environment of total love and engagement and security and wisdom that they will quite naturally make a moral choice at the normal time…..or sooner perhaps by some months of our time. But, is a soul now born? Or is the child a morontia being with Morontia mind? Very interesting. I would doubt many of these ones actually result in defiance and iniquity and elimination….maybe none? Perhaps undeveloped signifies that soul is more than “potential” but that it requires a moral choice for “birth”. Another interesting topic.
This issue also goes to the Adjutants I think. What is the mind ministry at work with these children of time and space in these nurseries?
Finally, it might be better to quote my words rather than put words in my mouth: “….this non-soul, as you would put it….” – actually I’ve never used that term in my life so I wouldn’t put it that way at all. I appreciate your efforts to understand me but no reason to misquote or misrepresent my words which does not reflect well on any discussion or debate or research on this or any topic.
Finally, it might be better to quote my words rather than put words in my mouth: “….this non-soul, as you would put it….” – actually I’ve never used that term in my life so I wouldn’t put it that way at all. I appreciate your efforts to understand me but no reason to misquote or misrepresent my words which does not reflect well on any discussion or debate or research on this or any topic.
Bradly, are you so naïve to think that your remark above was not meant as an insult, where if I were to have quoted you I would have put quotes around “non-soul” but is it not you who insisted that I present text, which could question your emphatic interpretations within the UB, where I could have taken those phrases which you underlined within UB quotes which if examined and applied to context and grammar would show the same persistence to show me the error of my ways, or the correctness of your ways or abilities. But, the use of non-soul, was used in the context whereby to support your belief that a soul cannot exist prior to its “birth” as literally indicated in the UB. Therefore, to someone who is emphatic that prior to this event, there is no possibility of a soul, what would I assume that you would call it, the maybe-soul.
It took about a week cataloging all appearances and variations associated with the word “soul” in the UB, and I came up with many interesting associations, but not all can be associated as static variations of its use. Also, I have found that the UB contradicts itself in many ways by the use of a similar phrase used for the same intention, where this contradiction seemed to be deliberate in order to tie specific subjects together for the purpose of explaining specific subjects which would or had not been explained in detail. As I said before I am very good at recognizing patterns, and I’m not blowing my own horn, I was tested, using tests which were designed to not be complete-able, and having finished with 20 minutes to spare with an accuracy rating of over 99.5% which even surprised me. I see things that others would not see. So, my persistence is not to get you to change your mind but only to get you understand why I think the way I do, regardless of your opinion of me which is only an opinion because you have no idea of who I am, but I regret having to salt my word in response to yours but, I’ve seen you do this with others, although not that much recently until now. My interest on this forum is complimentary to my study of personalities, and being able to recognize these traits through written correspondence as people reply, and I’ve learned much, Thank you.
MidiChlorian wrote: Are you indicating that this section and these “ancient peoples” did not believe in the pre-existence of the “soul”?Maybe you didn’t read this sentence below, a sentence which says that the soul was NOT believed to be pre-existent by many Egyptians and many African tribes? They knew thousands of years ago that only the spirit, or what we now know as the Adjuster, pre-existed. Interesting, huh? Some ancients did get it right.
111:0.4 The Egyptians and many African tribes also believed in two factors, the ka and the ba; the soul was not usually believed to be pre-existent, only the spirit.
MidiChlorian wrote:But if the soul is immortal, rather than mortal, would it not have pre-existed prior to it birth?Well, let’s look at this another way. How about answering these questions first?
- Do you think that you, Midi, existed prior to your conception in your mother’s womb here on planet Earth?
- If you existed prior to conception, where were you?
- Wherever you were prior to conception, was there also a pre-existent soul there with you?
- If your pre-existent soul was with you, was it personal? Did it only belong to you or was it assigned from a collective of souls?
- If your pre-existent soul was not with your pre-existent self prior to conception, where was it?
- Is there a reservoir of pre-existent souls somewhere waiting to inhabit bodies, and where would that reservoir be?
- How and when did you finally get your pre-existent soul? Did the pre-existent soul pick you? Or did you pick it?
- If the pre-existent soul chose you, does that mean that the pre-existent soul has its own volition?
- What does a pre-existent soul do once it inhabits a body?
- Does a pre-existent soul have pre-existent ideas? Does it have a pre-existent character or nature?
- Do you get to choose any of these pre-existent ideas or character traits as your own, or do you just somehow remember them from a former pre-existent association?
- How does a pre-existent soul determine the person it wants to inhabit here on earth?
- If souls are pre-existent, wouldn’t that make them existential and divine?
- If souls are already divine, why would they choose to evolve through experience?
- How does a soul transmute from existential to experiential?
- How would an existential soul contribute to the evolution of the experiential Supreme?
- What’s the purpose of a pre-existent soul and why would it want to inhabit you?
- What’s the final destination of a pre-existent soul?
MidiChlorian wrote: Then if the human mind can be associated with a or the soul, then would the following quote not indicate that something does not spring into existence from nothing, . . .
The soul doesn’t spring into existence from nothing. On the contrary, a pre-existent soul, such as you propose, would have to spring into existence from nothing. The morontia soul springs into existence from the combination of two parents: the moral decisions of the mortal mind and the divine Adjuster. It has to do with the decision of the mortal mind, not the fact that the mortal mind arose from a pre-existent mind source or that the Adjuster pre-existed.
The DECISION did NOT pre-exist, and that is what is NEW, UNIQUE and ORIGINAL. And you can’t have a DECISION without a personality to make it. The formula requires a personality making DECISIONS. Just because a personality uses a mind from a pre-existent source and a pre-existent Adjuster does not mean that the soul is pre-existent. If the pre-existent mind and pre-existent Adjuster wanted to work with a pre-existent soul, then they can do that on Paradise. Why bother with God the Sevenfold? Why all the fuss about the Supreme?
If you would actually study the book instead of posting imbedded deceptive opinion, which may or may not be of your on volition, you might see that the pen is mightier than the double edged sword of a forked tongue.
Whoa there bucko!! Hold your horses and your tongue! No wonder people don’t like to speak up on this forum. There’s no need to be nasty.
So let’s get the facts straight. Bradly is RIGHT. And thank you Brad and Keryn for your bravery.
- The soul is not immortal; it is only potentially immortal. (5:5.13; 13:1.22; 40:7.1; 111:0.4; 111:1.12)
- It’s the Adjuster who is immortal. (0:5.9; 5:3.8; 40:7.1; 49:4.9; 49:6.5; 132:3.6)
- Survival of the soul requires the Adjuster. (30:4.15; 49:4.9; 112:3.5; 113:6.5; 132:3.6)
- Personality must identify with the soul/Adjuster relationship in order to attain immortality. (5:6.7; 112:0.15; 132:3.6)
But, if the birth of the soul is dependent on this event, WHY would the narration use the phrase above, “delivering this undeveloped soul” where regardless of the birth factor and that fact that the cherubim is given “the responsibility of delivering” this non-soul, as you would put it, call it a “soul”.
Midi, if you had just read another two paragraphs, you might have been able to answer your own question. There are undeveloped souls in the nursery, some children do have Adjusters and souls. So what you thought looked and quacked like a duck really wasn’t a duck after all.
47:2.3 On the nursery world, probationary creatures are grouped according to whether or not they have Adjusters, for the Adjusters come to indwell these material children just as on the worlds of time. Children of pre-Adjuster ages are cared for in families of five, ranging in ages from one year and under up to approximately five years, or that age when the Adjuster arrives.
47:2.4 All children on the evolving worlds who have Thought Adjusters, but who before death had not made a choice concerning the Paradise career, are also repersonalized on the finaliter world of the system, where they likewise grow up in the families of the Material Sons and their associates as do those little ones who arrived without Adjusters, but who will subsequently receive the Mystery Monitors after attaining the requisite age of moral choice.
What is the mind ministry at work with these children of time and space in these nurseries?
Without an Adjuster, it would be merely a morontia variant of the cosmic mind. With an Adjuster there would also be the supermind of the Holy Spirit and the Spirit of Truth. They accompany us to the mansion worlds and beyond.
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