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@Bradley – You have no point to make, no authority, and no MORAL or ethical standing for your JUDGMENTS in the light of all other evidence YOU have presented.
At least everyone now also knows you do not have the genetic INTELLECT or any sincere desire to “know thy enemy.”
Once again you provided proof that you are a PREDATOR.
Hi Chuck, you wrote, “Here is a question that I don’t think has been asked. The atonement doctrine is sentral to Christianity. As I read before, some theologans (mostly from the liberal camp) I know that’s misspelled but I’m not going to correct it, no longer believe in it, but facts are facts. It is the core of Christianity as practiced buy the majority of Christians, no matter what the denomination. If you take that away, then they would no longer be Christian. It has been the core of that faith for the past 2000 years. If you take the core away, then the faith no longer exists.”
Can you help me out and clarify where you got this information from….?
Bradly wrote: Institutional religion is now caught in the stalemate of a vicious circle. It cannot reconstruct society without first reconstructing itself; and being so much an integral part of the established order, it cannot reconstruct itself until society has been radically reconstructed.Hello Bradly, thanks for including this quote which goes directly to the necessity of living to the full, the life being lived right now, with all of the challenges confronting society at present. In the 60s when I was a teen it was called “be here now.” As a group of religionists we have the benefit of a long term vision which embraces the goal of destiny, in this respect we number among the idealists of the world because our reality is based on faith. The challenge for religionists is achieving fearlessness with grace. Being fully grounded in the practicalities of living while living as in the presence of the Father.I have a question to put to believing Christians, what was Jesus talking about when he said “the kingdom is within you?”Finally, someone actually asking for an opinion – LOL. A “personal” opinion, of course. I go with how well Jesus SIMPLIFIED the truth – much needed from a common sense and logical point of view if you are untangling problems created 900K years ago…remember, he came to Urantia because it provided the maximum contrast, if you buy the TUB version of events. So if I may borrow my answer from the Beatle troubador from the 1960s, Paul McCartney, he crooned, “Inside each one of us is love and we know how it feels.”
Bradly, I also have a question to put to you and my fellow Urantia Book readers, what was Jesus talking about when he said “by their fruits you will know them?”Again, maximun contrast provided between Nihilism and the “kingdom within you” because of what people in either camp wake up and go DO to others in the world…totally different SOPs…totally different outcomes…
Jesus also defined the sons of God, as peacemakers.Is Christianity comprised of peacemakers?My point is that TRUE CHristians were ALWAYS gaining hold of the runaway wagon to get it back to the CHurch’s prime directive, if you will. To be the Institution OF Peace.
Is is showing ample evidence of “fruits of the spirit” to work actively in society to bring about peace on earth and goodwill to all men?It is currently a runaway wagon or a wagon already stolen and dismantled….
Referring to the quote at the top of this post……..Christianity…….”cannot reconstruct itself until society has been radically reconstructed.”Doesn’t this mean that every religionist should maximise their ability to effect social change depending on spirit leading?I would say that it can not be done “safely” or effectively if the religionist must act alone when s/he should be able to count on the rest of the “spiritual brotherhood” to re-establish the CHurch as THE shinning example of progress which had briefly turned the Christian Church into the Global Institution of PEACE and MERCY.
The good Samaritan is still among us despite the hardening of the hearts of many who serve as leaders, who should be showing a better moral example— “kill for peace” that’s a monstrous lie. To intercede on behalf of the innocent is positive action which makes no judgement on the attacker, it is a legitimate positive response to take someone out of harms way and gives time for an aggressor to reflect on the wisdom of their actions. We have examples of Jesus doing exactly this.By promoting peace, suspicion is replaced by goodwill and understanding.This is the peace that prevents ruinous conflicts. Personal peace integrates personality. Social peace prevents fear, greed, and anger. Political peace prevents race antagonisms, national suspicions, and war. Peacemaking is the cure of distrust and suspicion.Bradly wrote: I think the title of this thread misses the point of the teachings on religion….religious experience is personal and unique if it is true.Bradly, It’s a straightforward question really, as the many responses already will testify.Christianity is the only religion directly resulting from the life and teachings of Jesus yet contains much that is at odds with his message. We have an opportunity to correct the errors.The Greek method is a proven technique, it’s worth a try don’t you think?Successful living is nothing more or less than the art of the mastery of dependable techniques for solving common problems. The first step in the solution of any problem is to locate the difficulty, to isolate the problem, and frankly to recognize its nature and gravity. The great mistake is that, when life problems excite our profound fears, we refuse to recognize them. Likewise, when the acknowledgment of our difficulties entails the reduction of our long-cherished conceit, the admission of envy, or the abandonment of deep-seated prejudices, the average person prefers to cling to the old illusions of safety and to the long-cherished false feelings of security. Only a brave person is willing honestly to admit, and fearlessly to face, what a sincere and logical mind discovers. [Paper160:1.7, page 1773.4]Surely we are not overly daunted by the prospect of……“reduction of our long-cherished conceit, the admission of envy, or the abandonment of deep-seated prejudices.”Surely that courage that ……..“is willing honestly to admit, and fearlessly to face, what a sincere and logical mind discovers”…….is something that unites and strengthens us in spiritual brotherhood.Bradly, have you considered in all humility, what might have motivated the “Commission of twelve Urantia Midwayers acting under the supervision of Revelatory Director Mantutia Melchizedek” to write so much and so specifically what Christianity should do?Of course it’s people who must effect the required changes. But to avoid the issue is to perpetuate the problem.We have been gifted a mighty revelation of truth Why?chucksmith1982 wrote: [Atonement]…….facts are facts. It is the core of Christianity…Chucksmith hello and thanks for sharing this concern you have. What’s the use of a core if it has no meaning? A core is valueless if it is untrue.What is being advocated by the revelatory commission who are trusting that we can understand and take corrective action is to elevate and prioritise the teachings of Jesus above all else, of that which is complied in the Bible and well accepted by believers as true. Thus the higher truth can crowd out the lower error and relegate it to its rightful place as a stepping stone in the evolutionary spiritual journey…….history.Fear not……….. Christianity contains enough of Jesus’ teachings to immortalize it. It simply needs to grasp more of Jesus’ teachings.Christianity is an extemporized religion, and therefore must it operate in low gear. High-gear spiritual performances must await the new revelation and the more general acceptance of the real religion of Jesus. But Christianity is a mighty religion, seeing that the commonplace disciples of a crucified carpenter set in motion those teachings which conquered the Roman world in three hundred years and then went on to triumph over the barbarians who overthrew Rome. This same Christianity conquered — absorbed and exalted — the whole stream of Hebrew theology and Greek philosophy. And then, when this Christian religion became comatose for more than a thousand years as a result of an overdose of mysteries and paganism, it resurrected itself and virtually reconquered the whole Western world. Christianity contains enough of Jesus’ teachings to immortalize it.[Paper 195:10.18, page 2086:4]
If Christianity could only grasp more of Jesus’ teachings, it could do so much more in helping modern man to solve his new and increasingly complex problems. [Paper 195:10.19, page 2086:5]
Is it really vital to your faith, in the reality of the “kingdom within you” that confirms your sonship, that Mary be a virgin?
Is it really vital to your faith, in the reality of the “kingdom within you” that confirms your sonship, that Jesus was a sacrifice to an otherwise implacable Deity?
And would you want to be the son of such a murderer of the innocent as an anthropomorphic vengeful Deity is conceived to be?
Christianity must go from ritualistic symbolism to soul satisfying substance based on reason, don’t you agree?
Bradly wrote: Never should a righteous cause be promoted by force; spiritual victories can be won only by spiritual power. This injunction against the employment of material influences refers to psychic force as well as to physical force. ………… Make your appeals directly to the divine spirit that dwells within the minds of men.This is a peace promoting quote to my thinking which encourages us to show self mastery in refusing to use force in achieving outcomes.There is no instance where force to diminish another person is acceptable………contrary to what we see happening in secular society, “might is not right.”Hi Bradly, I see you are having something of an altercation with Sab, if something he writes is bothering you ask him to clarify.This is a peace promoting quote to my thinking which encourages us to show self mastery in refusing to use force in achieving outcomes.There is no instance where force to diminish another person is acceptableYou’re really good at this point, Vern. I admire you.The eternal God is our refuge.
He is a faithful Creator.Thanks Vern for starting this really interesting thread. I would like to add a thought that might prove to be a bit of a reality check.
Notwithstanding that we can identify the doctrines and dogmas of Christianity that need to change if the churches want to exert a positive unifying effect on the disparate peoples and cultures of this planet, we will never succeed in bringing this to their attention unless we are personally living according to the sublime standards of conduct exemplified by the Master himself.
It is ironical to me that we are discussing the impoverished status of modern Christianity…..its fragmentation and disunity and its misrepresentation of what the Master taught us and stood for…..while we as proclaimers of the FER behave in exactly the same way.
What hope do we have of reforming Christianity when we struggle to have a coherent, cordial, and conciliatory conversation about the subject together on this forum. I really find the tone of some of the preceding posts quite disturbing. Maybe I’m a bit thin-skinned but I think it behooves us to give ear to the following admonition as given by the Master to his apostles:
As you grow older in years and more experienced in the affairs of the kingdom, are you becoming more tactful in dealing with troublesome mortals and more tolerant in living with stubborn associates? Tact is the fulcrum of social leverage, and tolerance is the earmark of a great soul. If you possess these rare and charming gifts, as the days pass you will become more alert and expert in your worthy efforts to avoid all unnecessary social misunderstandings. Such wise souls are able to avoid much of the trouble which is certain to be the portion of all who suffer from lack of emotional adjustment, those who refuse to grow up, and those who refuse to grow old gracefully. P.1740:5
Even though you are effectively armed to meet the difficult situations of life, you can hardly expect success unless you are equipped with that wisdom of mind and charm of personality which enable you to win the hearty support and co-operation of your fellows. You cannot hope for a large measure of success in either secular or religious work unless you can learn how to persuade your fellows, to prevail with men. You simply must have tact and tolerance. P.1774:1
Another requirement for the attainment of maturity is the co-operative adjustment of social groups to an ever-changing environment. The immature individual arouses the antagonisms of his fellows; the mature man wins the hearty co-operation of his associates, thereby many times multiplying the fruits of his life efforts.
My philosophy tells me that there are times when I must fight, if need be, for the defense of my concept of righteousness, but I doubt not that the Master, with a more mature type of personality, would easily and gracefully gain an equal victory by his superior and winsome technique of tact and tolerance. All too often, when we battle for the right, it turns out that both the victor and the vanquished have sustained defeat. I heard the Master say only yesterday that the “wise man, when seeking entrance through the locked door, would not destroy the door but rather would seek for the key wherewith to unlock it.” Too often we engage in a fight merely to convince ourselves that we are not afraid. P.1778:1,2
Rather than “fight” with someone who is being deliberately provocative or belligerent, I think it is better to just ignore them. Just my opinion!
With love!
Julian, how adequate and resetting is your opinion. It remind me what Jesus have done on such a circumstance.
128:7.4 (1417.3) Jesus was a man of peace, and ever and anon was he embarrassed by Jude’s belligerent exploits and numerous patriotic outbursts. James and Joseph were in favor of casting him out, but Jesus would not consent. When their patience would be severely tried, Jesus would only counsel: “Be patient. Be wise in your counsel and eloquent in your lives, that your young brother may first know the better way and then be constrained to follow you in it.”
That is why I cherish this forum. Sharing together spirituals values enhance with personal’s experiences.How colorful,unique and eloquent trough personality God express Himself.
Merci Julian.
Thanks Julian for such sage counsel…my immaturity and failures are apparent in this regard. I hope for better command of my tongue and a more peaceful example. I appreciate yours.
As to Christianity re-inventing itself and the example of believers Julian mentioned, we are told:
10. The Future
195:10.1 (2084.1) Christianity has indeed done a great service for this world, but what is now most needed is Jesus. The world needs to see Jesus living again on earth in the experience of spirit-born mortals who effectively reveal the Master to all men. It is futile to talk about a revival of primitive Christianity; you must go forward from where you find yourselves. Modern culture must become spiritually baptized with a new revelation of Jesus’ life and illuminated with a new understanding of his gospel of eternal salvation. And when Jesus becomes thus lifted up, he will draw all men to himself. Jesus’ disciples should be more than conquerors, even overflowing sources of inspiration and enhanced living to all men. Religion is only an exalted humanism until it is made divine by the discovery of the reality of the presence of God in personal experience.
Thanks Julian for such sage counsel…my immaturity and failures are apparent in this regard. I hope for better command of my tongue and a more peaceful example. I appreciate yours.
As to Christianity re-inventing itself and the example of believers Julian mentioned, we are told:
10. The Future
195:10.1 (2084.1) Christianity has indeed done a great service for this world, but what is now most needed is Jesus. The world needs to see Jesus living again on earth in the experience of spirit-born mortals who effectively reveal the Master to all men. It is futile to talk about a revival of primitive Christianity; you must go forward from where you find yourselves. Modern culture must become spiritually baptized with a new revelation of Jesus’ life and illuminated with a new understanding of his gospel of eternal salvation. And when Jesus becomes thus lifted up, he will draw all men to himself. Jesus’ disciples should be more than conquerors, even overflowing sources of inspiration and enhanced living to all men. Religion is only an exalted humanism until it is made divine by the discovery of the reality of the presence of God in personal experience.
Yes Bradly, as I read what you present above, the UB quote, are you suggesting that it is this quote that justifies the initation of a new religion; as you call it “Jesusonian” religion? As I read it, would you not agree that until Jesus were to return, it would be the responce-ability for proclaimed Christian to live the life of Jesus as He proclaimed to do unto others? It would seem that it is easier to preach the life of Jesus, but harder to live or act the life of Jesus out from within? Doing is showing by example which seems to be much more difficult to do then to say. Does one tell their brother to do this or that and then do the opposit, which negates what has been said?
Yes, Midichlorian, I believe it is easier to talk about wanting to be like Jesus than to actually live as kind and loving as he was, even to his enemies. My experience is not as good as I want, but it is the direction toward him and the Father that is important. The authors tell us our present spiritual situation is not as important as the direction in which we are moving. It is progress we should desire. We are so human that we may unintentionally act human rather than heavenly, no matter how strong our desire. It does seem reasonable to assume, knowing what we learn from the UB, that the more we desire and make effort, the easier it is to become divine-like. Consider the fruits of the Spirit listed by Jesus during his 18th appearance.
Yes, if we get to know him better we may like him better and therefore change more easily into Jesus’ masterful character quality. Consider his marvelous example from his human life! Consider his decisions in all situations!
Also, it seems to me there is no rule anywhere or from divinity requiring people to adopt and accept Christianity to like and admire Jesus or the Father he represented. Christianity will change or it will wither away if it fails to teach the Jesus the authors want us to know.
Tolerance is one hugely important feature in relating to varying personalities and relationships. It is valuable here on this forum and in our communities; yes, wherever we may travel. We must recognize people are not omniscient and therefore we tolerate errors while at the same time we share the best we know from the Master. May I introduce an acronym: NONOMPS, meaning nonomniscient persons. We are very kindly instructed in the UB to be the best NONOMPS we can be!
“Yes Bradly, as I read what you present above, the UB quote, are you suggesting that it is this quote that justifies the initation of a new religion; as you call it “Jesusonian” religion? As I read it, would you not agree that until Jesus were to return, it would be the responce-ability for proclaimed Christian to live the life of Jesus as He proclaimed to do unto others? It would seem that it is easier to preach the life of Jesus, but harder to live or act the life of Jesus out from within? Doing is showing by example which seems to be much more difficult to do then to say. Does one tell their brother to do this or that and then do the opposit, which negates what has been said?”Greetings Midi – first I think the Jesusonian religion is the real and true religion we are taught in the FER – it is individual and personal and is by direct relationship with the Father Fragment. I think all true and real religion is so…always has been….always will be….nothing “new” about it….which, perhaps, makes naming it ill advised. I cannot define it or teach it or live it for any other and none may do so for any other. Religionists share much that is true but may never share any creeds or doctrines as any form of collective substitution for true religious experience…that personal relationship with the Spirit.
Each of us is divinely endowed by the Father Spirit and blessed by the Mother Spirit and the Spirit of the Son. Our experience and relationship with Deity is our own. We may celebrate that together, sing praises, unite in spirit, and enjoy the blessings of fellowship. And we may shine the light of such joy and peace as we walk by. But the pilgrim’s path to Paradise is one that each must walk in our way and in our time and it is by such a unique and personal journey that the creators may also celebrate the gifts of love, truth, beauty, and goodness they bestow to all creation. Or so I think.
140:4.7 (1572.7) “By their fruits you shall know them.” Personality is basically changeless; that which changes — grows — is the moral character. The major error of modern religions is negativism. The tree which bears no fruit is “hewn down and cast into the fire.” Moral worth cannot be derived from mere repression — obeying the injunction “Thou shalt not.” Fear and shame are unworthy motivations for religious living. Religion is valid only when it reveals the fatherhood of God and enhances the brotherhood of men.
140:4.8 (1572.8) An effective philosophy of living is formed by a combination of cosmic insight and the total of one’s emotional reactions to the social and economic environment. Remember: While inherited urges cannot be fundamentally modified, emotional responses to such urges can be changed; therefore the moral nature can be modified, character can be improved. In the strong character emotional responses are integrated and co-ordinated, and thus is produced a unified personality. Deficient unification weakens the moral nature and engenders unhappiness.
140:10.5 (1585.3) The one characteristic of Jesus’ teaching was that the morality of his philosophy originated in the personal relation of the individual to God — this very child-father relationship. Jesus placed emphasis on the individual, not on the race or nation. While eating supper, Jesus had the talk with Matthew in which he explained that the morality of any act is determined by the individual’s motive. Jesus’ morality was always positive. The golden rule as restated by Jesus demands active social contact; the older negative rule could be obeyed in isolation. Jesus stripped morality of all rules and ceremonies and elevated it to majestic levels of spiritual thinking and truly righteous living.
140:10.6 (1585.4) This new religion of Jesus was not without its practical implications, but whatever of practical political, social, or economic value there is to be found in his teaching is the natural outworking of this inner experience of the soul as it manifests the fruits of the spirit in the spontaneous daily ministry of genuine personal religious experience.
The Jesusonian Way.
The main reason why I re-read TUB – front to back like a normal book
– is because I realized that I had to go back and understand Part IV in light of everything REVEALED in Part I – III! Put the life of Jesus IN A NEW COSMIC CONTEXT. It was stunning how PERFECTLY Jesus lived as the Son of Man (free will) in harmony with God’s Will! No wonder why his Seventh Bestowal will forever stand the test of time in all of Nebadon for all free will personalities as an inspiration! People should try that – re-read Part IV in CONTEXT of Part I – III. Give your TA something to work with in you besides all s/he has now with the majority of TUB “readers” code-talking and writing derivative computer codes for the funneling of 900K years of labor’s honest work into a dark pool/black hole….
The Urantia Foundation is a SECULAR organization established to publish and distribute a BOOK. As such, it is a solar system without gravity when it comes to “religion”. And, of course, error has ensued, multiplied, and swamped everything. Ironically, TUB authors predicted as much. Metaphysics is a failure.
The only thing “personal” about developing a “personal” religion is how well you personally established a RELATIONSHIP with the divine spark – the TA. I do not perceive that to be where the TUB Foundation’s (and other “brotherhoods”) secular attempt at a philosophy for living jingoism has landed in regards to the truth, beauty and goodness of the situation. There is NOTHING other than “relationships” ahead all the way to Paradise and that is why individuals choose not to continue – they are not interested in service, getting rid of every bit of unselfishness in your soul, and staying in school forever taking hard math and science classes
@Vern – I would place my Vegas bet on the fact that if you stood outside a humble ethnic Catholic Church in the 1960s-70s and asked the people coming out of service – “What is the Atonement Doctrine”? the majority would give you that deer trapped in the headlights look and you know the range of answers – some would say they don’t know and don’t care, some would say they don’t know but are interested in knowing, and some would make stuff up – lol.I tend to want to collect “real time” data. I think it is a valid baseline to choose the 1960s-1970s by which to discern “progress” in the “christian churches”. Seems to me like MORE people know what the “atonement doctrine” is since then and that is not a good development, imo. BTW, the “atonement doctrine” was not one of the things required to know for Confirmation. There was only one question asked of us pupils during my Confirmation ceremony, and because I was on the end of the pew in the middle of the church, the Bishop pointed at me to give the answer to “Who is God?”, and I remember being grateful to God that I knew the correct answer, “God is Love”.
“What is torture when greed is good?” cabal would love to keep teaching the Atonement Doctrine, wouldn’t they? Part of their psych ops offensive (FORCE + mind altering drugs), psychobabble judgements of “soul” (metaphysics), and dismantling of the experientially earned Institute of Peace and Mercy – the “religion” of the Church.
Here is some real psychology of human nature to consider – when something is experientially earned, it is not given up as a human right without a BIG fight – “lose your life in order to save your life”….just sayin’
As I passed by the other day, I was handed a small booklet “The U.S.Constitution and fascinating facts about it”. I always participate in any “Constitution” discussion by reminding people that the “Constitution” is the SOP (standard operating procedure) developed to back up the REAL “spirit” – The Declaration of Independence. There is a LIST of grievances against the King that the people had decided was worth the blood and treasure to throw off their backs – here is one that is pertinent to NOW – “He (the King) has erected a Multitude of New Offices, and sent hither Swarms of Officers to harass our People, and eat out their Substance.”
The Patriot Act, anyone? Want your solar system gravity of the soul to be writ by people who ask “What is torture when greed is good?”
I AM not the one who took it too far….and the mercy credits of humans is a little short of the time God gives, so deal with it.
Japan is re-arming against pre-emptive strikes from USA….Russia, China….not to mention places like N. Korea…
The clock is ticking. We the People better prove we are back in charge through our experientially earned, “christian” Institute for Peace and Mercy. There will be no more pre-emptive strikes and we better go public about asking for mercy for THAT cosmically insane move – in this case of war-mongering, “the devil made me do it” might actually be true.
And lets please stop with the clown show of fortune tellers predicting the time/day of the end of the world…scheesh…how LAME-O
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