What steps can Christianity take to re-invent itself?

[Sabinatu]

How old was Jesus when he said this? Was he showing “impatience”?

Paper 175 – 1. The Discourse – “….This long time have I been with you, going up and down in the land proclaiming the Father’s love for the children of men, and many have seen the light and, by faith, have entered into the kingdom of heaven….”

To pivot to the purely secular – what is the correlation between “modern psychiatry” and the parade of not-normal minded “leadership” and their 20th century warmongering….? It is almost as if psychiatry provides an explanation for “cosmic insanity” that lures in the “mind is infallible” crowd. Cruise the comments sections all over the internet – you are sneered at as a idiot if you “believe” in a Creator who is a “person” that can love and be loved….

Once again, how wonderful to have TUB to level the playing field on which the caretaker who was supposed to raise us has done his perfidy for hundreds of millenia (how is he not bored with torture, greed and degeneracy?)…especially when it comes to the conceit of “mind”?

[Sabinatu]

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/jim-wallis/pope-francis-visit-the-co_b_8156212.html

cut and pasted from the opinion page – “…..But this is much more than just another papal visit. The pope coming to America next week has become the world’s conversation-changer. And we have not seen that for a long time — especially from a religious leader…..”

I could understand this “have not seen that for a long time” if the author was 14-15 years old and raised on internet “facts” that seem hell-bent on starting the “conversation” from the baseline of Pope Benedict – but Jim Wallis has been around for a while.

Pope John Paul II was FOCUSED on one critical and “purist” (“religion” as expounded upon in Papers 99-103) stance when addressing the Global War, Drug, and Slave Lords, especially after 9/11/2001, and that stance was PEACE.

Pope Francis is CLEARLY on the side of using religion as an opiate for the masses, as per the propaganda playbook put together by the Global War, Drug and Slave Lords.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=92699

 

[Teobeck]

I didn’t realize this thread was requesting a comparison of certain Popes, nor that it asked for references from other internet opinion sites. But now that I know that, I will respectfully withdraw, and seek enlightenment elsewhere.

[Sabinatu]

Teobeck wrote:

Vern, you are right on target. The world is becoming vastly more complex every day for the average person and the elites (population explosion, dwindling resources, economic malaise, increasing national debts, etc.). As the UBook explains, the basic root of all of these problems is materialism and nationalism. And, a return to Jesus is the only solution. It would seem impossible, until one learns that one third of the Gypsies in Europe, approximately 4 million people, have converted to Jesus through the Pentecostal Churches in the last 50 years. They have stopped drinking, stealing, begging, telling fortunes, beating their wives, are obtaining regular employment, are leaving their kids in school, and are integrating into society. This has been allowing them to become much less marginalized. The Spirit is definitely available to all who knock. It is a small victory, but nonetheless a significant one, and indicative of the fact that Jesus is the answer. I just hope that the spiritual changes take place in time, before there are more serious major catastrophes i.e. the 20 million displaced middle easterners,etc.

Did not feel the need to snip that your post was un-inspirational – all whopping 3 of your posts as a matter of fact – hope you find what you are looking for wherever you choose to look for it….

[Mara]

Teobeck wrote:

I didn’t realize this thread was requesting a comparison of certain Popes, nor that it asked for references from other internet opinion sites. But now that I know that, I will respectfully withdraw, and seek enlightenment elsewhere.

This individual  has a habit of posting links to opinion pages and elsewhere.   If you don’t like it just skip over it.  In other words don’t bite the bait, because this individual is throwing verbal chum into the water to get the forum water to a boil.  You’re experienced with people and know how these forums work, don’t you?  I think so.

 

 

[Sabinatu]

Seriously, what is the problem with this place when it comes to having a discussion about “religion” ala Papers 99 -103?

Who have I “disrespected”?  I have had ONE exchange with Teobeck who FIRST threw an “un-inspirational” dig at ME.

I have CLEARLY been trying to stick with the numerous lucid suggestions offered in Papers 99 -103 about how to PERSONALLY take the time to understand why you (the collective “you” of HUMANITY) would even develop a PERSONAL religion.  What “emotional” buttons are being pushed by Papers 99 – 103 is not something that I am doing to you two as you read along, or NOT.

Never mind being all jesus-like or Rodanish or anything else, too high a bar to reach – try good manners.  If all you are urged to do is to post some dime store judgement about another poster, don’t.  “Religion”, as a topic for how “Christianity” can re-invent itself ala Papers 99 – 103  – never mind how Islam or Judaism or Buddhism or Hinduism can re-invent themselves as a “religion”, also – certainly does not say that step one is to JUDGE who has the bona fides to comment on it.

Now back to the topic at hand.

Without the “Christian” sects, such as they are NOW, teaching the Atonement Doctrine, would anyone be actually EXPERIENCING that doctrine as a “spiritual” experience while living in harmony with the Creator’s WILL – for us, his children?  No. They wouldn’t because it is a SPIRITUALLY UNREAL doctrine!  So just at least stop TEACHING it.  There is NO truth, beauty or goodness in that doctrine.

Now I realize that it will not carry as much weight among some long time TUB readers that I did not come blazing on to the Urantia forum internets in 1991 claiming to be a Finaliter who listens to voices in my head and has visions of 7th heavens who had TUB fall off the shelf and on to my head at the Library and that is how I came to be awakened to my mission of saving the world

to say that I am just another Catholic grammar and high school educated person from NJ, USA – a child of WWII survivors who certainly had a LOT of experience with “personal religion”, being as “afflicted” as they were during their time on earth and how that was “good” for them in the long run as TUB readers chant over and over again…

but here I am to share how times HAVE changed.  Never read the Bible, wasn’t required.  Never had to stand up and pledge that I “believe” in the Atonement Doctrine. And was never drummed out of school or class or sent to a psychologist for analysis on whether I needed to be giving Ritalin or Opium because I always had two one-liners to challenge some of the things people said, with self-proclaimed “authority” – 1. How come Jesus never wrote anything down? and 2. Jesus was crucified BECAUSE of “our” sins, not FOR them.

So even steeped as my educations was, supposedly, in the big bad centuries old nasty misogynistic and predatory pedophile Catholic Church, I got a pressure-free to reception from nuns, priests, brothers and guests when discussing “religion” – yours, mine, ours, theirs, etc etc etc.  BTW, it WAS required reading and study for all 4 years of high school in “religion” class to learn about all the “religions” on the planet back then in the 1970s – some have been added since then so I keep abreast of those recent “religions” – atheism being one. It is just a habit, I guess.  Lifelong learning in certain areas is normal for me – astronomy, arts, science – I even named the group of 7 students I went through high school with in the “advance” curriculum the “Physics and Philosophy Warriors”.  In retrospect, I was so fortunate to have such a fantastic education that certainly did put me on the path to “lose my life”, if I had to, in order to “save my life”.

Sorry if it is too much for other readers who have not been thus prepared to handle their own safe progress of their soul, but I have to claim MY rights to “religious freedom” – the right NOT to be pressured by a handful of TUB readers who clearly have turmoil when it comes to so much of what is in TUB.  I don’t have share that turmoil. I had an “education” that made me immune to it.

I only had a hard time figuring out the new astronomy map laid out in TUB.

Now Vern and I are having a discussion here and if I understand the MISSION of these TUB forums, this is where we should be able to SAFELY talk about religion ala Papers 99 -103.  Neither Vern nor I have said no one else can chime in – we’re still waiting for others who are also finding ways to PROGRESS as individual “religionists” by better understanding how “religion”, itself, is something we were created to possess as a natural endowment of “mind”.

It is a very interesting topic – for me as a Catholic educated person with the “habit” of safely talking about Popes, Shamans, Warlocks and whatever else the human imagination has come up with as we religiously misinterpret “what is religion”.

As Spock (an imaginary character in Star Trek, sorry, still no voices in my head) would say, “Fascinating”.

I can not LIVE or experience right in the NOW either the Atonement Doctrine as Deity Truth Beauty and Goodness anymore than I can experience the actual times of the past NOW during the Inquisition or Crusades – those past times and spiritually unreal doctrines are NOT my personal experience with anything Catholic.  Truth.

So it is with those personal bona fides, unique to me for all time – LOL – I am taking a look at the momentum of politics and public relations being laid out as the philosophic red carpet for Pope Francis to glide over – the PRESSURE to control the conversation of his flock – and ask, “what the heck are you trying to do?” for us NOW?

But maybe I have once again stepped into TUB code-talking land and the REAL question being asked here because there are too many people like me still around with a decent enough “religious” education to be trouble for “them” – “How can we regain psychological control over a Christianity that is spiritually more powerful – IN CONTRAST to our Nihilism, Hedonism and Anarchy?”.

Hey, Teobeck and Mara, maybe jump over to Truthbook and join in the lively discussion about the “idea” that TUB code talkers are having that we are just a computer simulation of a hunger game…and the “winners” have already been decided….not sure which Papers gave them that “idea”, but hey, wha’ever….

Might start another thread about psychology being the study of another’s religion in light of how many prescriptions were written for drugs given to “problem” kids (like me?) who asked the WRONG question in religion class.

Those professional and legally binding psychological “diagnosis” of kids and elderly are WORSE than “judge not”, I would argue.  And I would win that argument with EVERYTHING that TUB provides in the way of SPIRITUAL power that is NOT an ACTUAL opiate FOR the masses….so by all means do not read along on that one!  THAT conversation will definitely reveal a lot of “contrast” between the “ideas” of what is “normal”.

 

 

 

 

[Vern]

Sabinatu wrote:  Cruise the comments sections all over the internet – you are sneered at as a idiot if you “believe” in a Creator who is a “person” that can love and be loved….

Hi Sab, the unbeliever is mightily challenged by the calm assurance of the believing son or daughter of the Father.

The certainty of the God-knowing religionist should not be disturbed by the uncertainty of the doubting materialist; rather should the uncertainty of the unbeliever be mightily challenged by the profound faith and unshakable certainty of the experiential believer. ^{[Paper 103:8.5, page 1140:5]}

Well, you do not have the opportunity of speaking face-to-face online unless on Skype or a similar audiovisual link, the best option is to send a prayer that the unbeliever’s Though Adjuster achieves deeper contact with the subject of their devoted affection.

…but especially pray for those who curse you, and make loving petitions for those who persecute you. “But when to pray, I will not say. Only the spirit that dwells within you may move you to the utterance of those petitions which are expressive of your inner relationship with the Father of spirits.” ^{[Paper 146:2.11, page 1639:6]}

Mature persons regard immature folks with a compassionate attitude similar to that of a wise parent for their, impetuous child.

[Vern]

Sabinatu wrote:  …maybe I have once again stepped into TUB code-talking land…

Hey Sab, my friend, I did have a bit of a time getting to understand where you are at, thinking you were more stick than carrot. I note the sincerity of your last post as you provide more understanding about the person you are and experiences that have shaped you.

 

Ever since childhood, I’ve always maintained a welcoming and gregarious attitude to my fellows, believing in the value friendship.  That in combination with an unshakable resolve that “…truth never suffers from honest examination.” In one of my recent shared quotes spoken by Jesus from The Urantia Book he states frankly the Father “loathes” hypocrisy. As lovers of truth, believers are well placed to recognize that which is false, however, by loving the sinner while hating the sin, it requires all the arts of living to negotiate with tact, tolerance, timing and wisdom, the means by which to appeal to the higher that the lower may be overcome.

 

In initiating this conversation topic on “What steps can Christianity take to re-invent itself?” I was responding to heartfelt curiosity.

Why have the commission of twelve Urantia Midwayers under the supervision of a Melchizedek Revelatory Director said so plainly in the concluding papers of The Urantia Book, the future course of planetary progress, spiritual and social, depends on renewal of Christianity?

Here are some random quotes in  support of this initiative:

…The living Jesus is the only hope of a possible unification of Christianity.  ^{[Paper 195:10.11, page 2085:3]}

Many earnest persons who would gladly yield loyalty to the Christ of the gospel find it very difficult enthusiastically to support a church which exhibits so little of the spirit of his life and teachings… ^{[Paper 195:10.9, page 2085:1]}

 

The great hope of Urantia lies in the possibility of a new revelation of Jesus with a new and enlarged presentation of his saving message which would spiritually unite in loving service the numerous families of his present-day professed followers.  ^{[Paper 195:10.16, page 2086:2]}

 

If Christianity could only grasp more of Jesus’ teachings, it could do so much more in helping modern man to solve his new and increasingly complex problems.  ^{[Paper195:10.19, page 2086:5]}

 

…Modern culture must become spiritually baptized with a new revelation of Jesus’ life and illuminated with a new understanding of his gospel of eternal salvation. And when Jesus becomes thus lifted up, he will draw all men to himself. Jesus’ disciples should be more than conquerors, even overflowing sources of inspiration and enhanced living to all men.…   ^{[Paper195:10.1, page 2084:1]}

 

…Christianity even now willingly goes the first mile, but mankind languishes and stumbles along in moral darkness because there are so few genuine second-milers — so few professed followers of Jesus who really live and love as he taught his disciples to live and love and serve.  ^{[Paper195:10.5, page 2084:5]}

 

If the Christian church would only dare to espouse the Master’s program, thousands of apparently indifferent youths would rush forward to enlist in such a spiritual undertaking, and they would not hesitate to go all the way through with this great adventure.  ^{[Paper195:10.10, page 2085:2]}

These sample quotes are from only one Paper “The Future” ^{[Paper195:10, page 2085]} there are other places where the same spirit of specific encouragement, is urging Christianity to get its house in order. Christianity is comprised of men and women of faith responsive to the mighty spiritual forces stirring within their souls, sincerity of the believer is the guarantee of truth registry and the hope of positive transformation of society.

 

Sab, I’ll begin to review Papers 99–103 for additional insights which may be significant.

 

[Sabinatu]

@Vern – I understood where you were coming from right away – but you have to remember that the “spiritual flavor”, if you will, of Christianity in USA, even in 1955, nevermind 1934, was completely different than it is now.  And how many Christians were part of the Contact Commission?  Still would love to know what their questions were that TUB is the answer to….but I digress….

We have to get real clear about what “religion” is in all of humanity as an endowment of “mind” before we can live teach preach or ignore what the religion Of Jesus was – that’s all I am trying to helpfully suggest.

Every evolutionary religion on Urantia was discussed in TUB – the good bad and ugly about them.  Christianity is singled out because it claims to be the FOLLOWER of Jesus – so that is probably why Jesus wants HIS name to be cleared by his “followers”…and it is WAY tougher of a job than it should be, imo, because of the infiltration of church leadership by people with a completely different agenda than being “Christian”.

You heard me

As you note, the contrast is getting clearer…

If the Pope is too cowardly to focus all souls on PEACE, then just go back to books and ledgers at the Vatican but do not become another schill for godless humanism mono-causes.

Honestly, after hammering “austerity” onto the Greeks for the interest on their country’s loans (usury) to the point where THEIR own people are living homeless in the streets, that same merciless GLOBAL cabal is playing the “christian” card now!? Accusing the Greeks of not taking enough Syrian refugees in….Huh?!

Christians are told to get their own house in order.  Don’t need the incessant jingoism from non-Christians to get that done.

[Bonita]

It appears that the only way to stop receiving email notifications concerning this thread is to actually type something in this box.  Can’t you people find a way to uncheck the notify box without submitting text?

[Vern]

Christianity—some suggested steps

1. Proclaim Sonship with God as a fact of mortal status. Child has right of access to the parent.
2. Discard the Atonement doctrine.
3. Discard virgin birth myth. Accept that Jesus was born as children are, by sexual intercourse of parents. Joseph and Mary were already married, she was not a virgin.
4. Promote peace. Advocate exclusively non-violent means of resolving human disagreements.
5. Establish gender equality. Cease the elitist attempt at a celibate priesthood which was never advocated by Jesus. Encourage family life, establishment and maintenance of the home which is the structural basis of society.
6. Accept its spiritual mission. Cease being distracted by social and material matters. No excuse for church involvement in commerce and politics.
7. Teach the religious life of Jesus and how he lived it.

[Teobeck]

Thanks Mara. Sab didn’t disrespect me and said nothing even pointed at me prior to my post. I just didn’t want to further participate in a thread where the issue changed to posting personal a negative opinion about the present Pope’s thinking, as compared to other Popes. Everyone is entitled to their opinions on such things, but an ad hominem attack against a  current religious leader is not something I want to participate in.

Peace.

[Bradly]

Teobeck wrote:

Thanks Mara. Sab didn’t disrespect me and said nothing even pointed at me prior to my post. I just didn’t want to further participate in a thread where the issue changed to posting personal a negative opinion about the present Pope’s thinking, as compared to other Popes. Everyone is entitled to their opinions on such things, but an ad hominem attack against a current religious leader is not something I want to participate in. Peace.

I agree that it is most unfortunate that such secular politics overtake any conversation and display such a myopic and dark view of our world and its future on a UB forum.  The critical analysis of any institutional religion or its leaders seems to me to miss the subject of real religion especially given the diversity and disparity we know exists in all such institutions as we are taught that there is only one true and real religion…and there’s around 7 billion of them!!

Christianity, of any flavor by any institution, is not the solution to any need or lack and is but the cocoon – not the butterfly to come.  Christianity can only “re-invent” itself one soul at a time….same with the world and society and culture.

Personally, I really like the Pope’s institutional expressions of his personal religion and his willingness to up the ante by recognition of the importance of every person and his love for others.  It appears to be an earnest attempt to reconstruct that particular  brand of Christianity.  But what do I know?

Political commentary is an unwise insertion as well.  Damning that which one disagrees with changes nothing…especially the critic.  But the heathen rage!  And gnash their teeth and demonstrate the fool’s errand of opposition to other’s choices while demonstrating the real need for personal transformation and transcendence above such a fray whereby a clearer view of actual progress and potential might be found.  Anger and fear offer nothing to anyone of any value.  Let the heathen rage.

The Urantia movement should not be called to arms for such petty trifles as social reform, political change, or condemning others.  Each religionist is called upon to change the world by their living of the truth and by the love which they share in their daily walk and to be certain in our own destiny and that of our world.  Progress cannot be measured by the short sighted and darkened view of disappointment and impatience.  Or so I think.

99:1.1 (1086.4) Mechanical inventions and the dissemination of knowledge are modifying civilization; certain economic adjustments and social changes are imperative if cultural disaster is to be avoided. This new and oncoming social order will not settle down complacently for a millennium. The human race must become reconciled to a procession of changes, adjustments, and readjustments. Mankind is on the march toward a new and unrevealed planetary destiny.

99:2.1 (1087.4) Institutional religion cannot afford inspiration and provide leadership in this impending world-wide social reconstruction and economic reorganization because it has unfortunately become more or less of an organic part of the social order and the economic system which is destined to undergo reconstruction. Only the real religion of personal spiritual experience can function helpfully and creatively in the present crisis of civilization.

99:2.2 (1087.5) Institutional religion is now caught in the stalemate of a vicious circle. It cannot reconstruct society without first reconstructing itself; and being so much an integral part of the established order, it cannot reconstruct itself until society has been radically reconstructed.

99:2.3 (1087.6) Religionists must function in society, in industry, and in politics as individuals, not as groups, parties, or institutions. A religious group which presumes to function as such, apart from religious activities, immediately becomes a political party, an economic organization, or a social institution. Religious collectivism must confine its efforts to the furtherance of religious causes.

99:2.4 (1087.7) Religionists are of no more value in the tasks of social reconstruction than nonreligionists except in so far as their religion has conferred upon them enhanced cosmic foresight and endowed them with that superior social wisdom which is born of the sincere desire to love God supremely and to love every man as a brother in the heavenly kingdom. An ideal social order is that in which every man loves his neighbor as he loves himself.

[Mara]

This reply has been reported for inappropriate content.

Bradly wrote:  “Political commentary is an unwise insertion as well. Damning that which one disagrees with changes nothing…especially the critic. But the heathen rage! And gnash their teeth and demonstrate the fool’s errand of opposition to other’s choices while demonstrating the real need for personal transformation and transcendence above such a fray whereby a clearer view of actual progress and potential might be found. Anger and fear offer nothing to anyone of any value. Let the heathen rage.

“The Urantia movement should not be called to arms for such petty trifles as social reform, political change, or condemning others. Each religionist is called upon to change the world by their living of the truth and by the love which they share in their daily walk and to be certain in our own destiny and that of our world. Progress cannot be measured by the short sighted and darkened view of disappointment and impatience. Or so I think.”

Beautifully put Bradly! Thank you for your enlightened thoughts.  And for bringing this conversation to what in my opinion is the crux of the matter.  The individual.  No sense to me in complaining about other people.  I abhor it.  Christianity is wonderful and there is nothing you or I can do to change it.  It will change over time.  The part, the individual, can change.  Without individual change Christianity is retarded in it progress.  But Christianity does change, though not at the rate some prefer.

48:7:20  18. Impatience is a spirit poison; anger is like a stone hurled into a hornet’s nest.

[Sabinatu]

Vern wrote:

Christianity—some suggested steps

1. Proclaim Sonship with God as a fact of mortal status. Child has right of access to the parent.
2. Discard the Atonement doctrine.
3. Discard virgin birth myth. Accept that Jesus was born as children are, by sexual intercourse of parents. Joseph and Mary were already married, she was not a virgin.
4. Promote peace. Advocate exclusively non-violent means of resolving human disagreements.
5. Establish gender equality. Cease the elitist attempt at a celibate priesthood which was never advocated by Jesus. Encourage family life, establishment and maintenance of the home which is the structural basis of society.
6. Accept its spiritual mission. Cease being distracted by social and material matters. No excuse for church involvement in commerce and politics.
7. Teach the religious life of Jesus and how he lived it.

Nice start!  Agree with your “big picture” list as presented in Papers 99 – 103….Here is my cut and paste contribution because this was the “revelation” of TRUTH – for ME PERSONALLY

(after a lifetime of “religion” and after watching the CHAOS created among TUB readers with “disruptive technology” that was basically a savage knifing of “messengers” of the future on the senate floor akin to that scene in the HBO series “Rome” where they all stab Caesar)

that never gets cut and pasted by the local pint of TUB jingoists:

Page 1088 – “The great weakness of all this unrecognized and unconscious type of religious activity is that it is unable to profit from open religious criticism and thereby attain to profitable levels of self-correction. It is a fact that religion does not grow unless it is disciplined by constructive criticism, amplified by philosophy, purified by science, and nourished by loyal fellowship.”

 

“unrecognized and unconscious”

Now that it is as clear to me as the cloudless desert blue sky that the same cut and paste jobs that MAra and Bradley supply us with OVER AND OVER AND OVER again are only the ones that, taken out of context, can be used for knifing anyone who DARES to actually READ THE BOOK – it is a “spiritually” vile and incessant GAME of the politics of personal destruction – so yes Mara and Bradley, I HAVE lost my patience with both of you because I NEVER did anything to you to hurt you financially morally spiritually ethically and psychologically – so thanks for providing the CONTRAST of how many times you have done that here for all to see and I am just getting started on where you were the snakes in the grass in my backyard – LITERALLY.

Here is the OPENING LINE in Paper 99 – “Religion achieves its highest social ministry when it has least connection with the secular institutions of society.”

CHRISTIANITY has been infiltrated – NOT BY SABINATU talking “politics”- but by non-CHristians and that is CLEAR from the way the CATHOLIC CHURCH is conducting its “social ministry” – as a schill for godless conniving thieving tyrants and despots that well-meaning religionist souls like Teobeck do not want to go there – on record. PROVE ME WRONG. You can’t. All you can do is cut and paste from TUB to continue your jingoism – laughable to sell the “personal” angle as the new PRESSURE to conform at the very time when the SECULAR technopsycho world has robbed everyone of their PRIVACY….philosophic mayhem – the rotten fruit….I spit it out…

[Author]

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