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Posts
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I’ve been waiting three weeks to continue this thread.
Reminds me of this
48:6:36 Even as mortals, so have these angels been father to many disappointments, and they will point out that sometimes your most disappointing disappointments have become your greatest blessings. Sometimes the planting of a seed necessitates its death, the death of your fondest hopes, before it can be reborn to bear the fruits of new life and new opportunity. And from them you will learn to suffer less through sorrow and disappointment, first, by making fewer personal plans concerning other personalities, and then, by accepting your lot when you have faithfully performed your duty.I think steadfastness is a virtue. Thanks for all your great work Bonita.Bradly wrote: And I find it a little odd that Peter was made the shepherd of the flock of believers and no such role lived beyond the apostles in any form.So do you believe in apostolic succession then? I don’t. Jesus told Peter to be a good and true shepherd to the flock. He also said, in the next paragraph, to be an example and inspiration to his fellow shepherds (192:2.4-5). I interpret this to mean the group of apostles whom Jesus ordained to spread the gospel immediately after his death; this is his group of undershepherds. Peter was just one of several.
The connection of the word “undershepherd” as meaning “apostles” or as you put it earlier the “apostles appointed and ordained by Jesus” is an interpretation I don’t see myself. I don’t think “undershepherd” is meant as a title or the result of an appointment or an ordination, my reading of it is that he just meant the word descriptively in speaking of those who would be leaders in kingdom work among the audience of 100+ religious teachers and leaders that he was speaking to.
In revisiting who was considered “ordained by Jesus” according to the book, it wasn’t just the apostles but encompasses the seventy and Jesus would have even gone further and ordained more liberally if he could have:
“That evening, after returning to the camp, Jesus visited with the Greeks, and had it not been that such a course would have greatly disturbed his apostles and many of his leading disciples, he would have ordained these twenty Greeks, even as he had the seventy.” 177:3.6
Thinking about this a bit more: A quote from the UB is likely more than purely informative. The revealators certainly hope to change our minds dont they?
Maybe purely informative is more related to the facts we get from our scientific community.
Only the person giving information knows his/her real intent, if to purely inform (if that is possible) or to persuade. I am certain sharing is somewhere in-between, no?
tas wrote: I don’t think “undershepherd” is meant as a title or the result of an appointment or an ordination, my reading of it is that he just meant the word descriptively in speaking of those who would be leaders in kingdom work among the audience of 100+ religious teachers and leaders that he was speaking to.I understand and appreciate your interpretation tas. My point is that anyone who wants to be an undershepherd must enter the door of the sheepfold along with the True Shepherd. That makes the undershepherd really a sheep following the True Shepherd.
165:2.7 Every shepherd who seeks to enter the fold without me shall fail, and the sheep will not hear his voice.
I can’t emphasize enough the fact that I’m trying to explain, that self-appointed shepherds or undershepherds, regardless of how ardently they believe they are ordained by Jesus/Michael, are really nothing more than frauds. An undershepherd is just another sheep who chooses to hear the voice of the True Shepherd and bears the fruit that comes from the True Shepherd. Without this, the other sheep will not hear their voice, which is a metaphor for the fruits of the spirit born by an undershepherd who hears the True Shepherd within.
I don’t think I’m doing a very good job of explaining this, but I keep trying (steadfastness is a virtue). The point is, that at the time of the telling of this parable, Jesus was in the flesh and only those near him could be taught by him and led by him. Undershepherds at that time would have to be ordained, on some level, by Jesus in person. Modern people have the advantage of the Spirit of Truth. Undershepherds today are simply those sheep who hear the voice of the True Shepherd, the Spirit of Truth, within their souls. This is why I hold to the opinion that the phrase in 165:2.7: “I, with those who minister with me, am the door,” has to do with the door within the mind that leads to the soul where the Spirit of Truth does his work.
The Spirit of Truth stands at the door and knocks. This is the door that opens the gateway from the material mind to the morontia soul. The Holy Spirit is the supermind endowment, or the soul’s intellect. She ministers with the Spirit of Truth and together they reveal the leadings of the Thought Adjuster within the soul. These Deities, the Holy Spirit and the Thought Adjuster, are “those who minister with me,” who is today, in modern times, the Spirit of Truth.
The Spirit of Truth is the True Shepherd. We are his sheep. We are capable of becoming undershepherds to the one and only True Shepherd in proportion to our capacity of receptivity and our willingness to do God’s will. True leaders lead by example and that example is spiritual fruit and spiritual fragrance, neither of which is possible without the presence of the True Shepherd living within the soul. No door will open, no sheep will hear or follow, unless these fruits and fragrances are evident in one’s life.
If we want to define the word shepherd/undershepherd for modern times, then I think we can safely say that living a truth-coordinated life is sufficient. But that is really a life of being a loyal sheep, and that is the point I’m trying to make, ever so poorly.
155:1.5 The extent to which you have to go with your message to the people is, in a way, the measure of your failure to live the whole or righteous life, the truth-co-ordinated life .”
I can’t emphasize enough the fact that I’m trying to explain, that self-appointed shepherds or undershepherds, regardless of how ardently they believe they are ordained by Jesus/Michael, are really nothing more than frauds.
I understand your wanting to call out self-appointed shepherd and undershepherds as “frauds”, but also I’d be mindful that we all are kids in the grand scheme of things, even them. Ever the optimist, I tend to think that in all endeavours, including leadership, people can do it not so well and not with the most noble intentions, however there is always room to grow. Even leaders who lead poorly or immaturely – they are kids too and, who knows which ones could learn and grow from their missteps to in time become true shepherds.
What’s interesting is that even the apostles themselves were prone to this overreach of “ardently believing” they were more than they were, such as when they tried (and failed) to “cast out a demon”, and how even up until the end of Jesus ministry among them they had in mind status and rank and self-importance. Even for those living in his presence and hearing the words right out of his mouth, it was a struggle to such an extent that Jesus had to enact his living parable of washing their feet on the eve of his death. Living experience seem to be essential to really learning the lessons.
The image I have in my mind of an “undershepherd” is of somebody like a neighborhood pastor of small to mid-sized church, faithfully ministering to his or her congregation (“flock”). Of course there’s other capacities of serving a “flock” aside from organized religion but that’s the type of position or status I personally envision from the word.
tas wrote: Even leaders who lead poorly or immaturely – they are kids too and, who knows which ones could learn and grow from their missteps to in time become true shepherds.That’s my point exactly. They are kids – sheep, not shepherds! Only when they listen to the true shepherd can they ever hope to be heard by other sheep.
tas wrote: The image I have in my mind of an “undershepherd” is of somebody like a neighborhood pastor of small to mid-sized church, faithfully ministering to his or her congregation (“flock”). Of course there’s other capacities of serving a “flock” aside from organized religion but that’s the type of position or status I personally envision from the word.I can see that, but I think those people are not really spiritual leaders, they are sheep fulfilling a social leadership role. There’s only one true spiritual leader among us. The Creator Son, Son of the Eternal Son, is the focus of spiritual gravity for those of us living in this universe. Pastors, priests, popes, rabbis, imams . . . they’re all social leaders. The Church is a social organization centered around a spiritual brotherhood with the Spirit of Truth as the eternal focal point. That’s not to say that these social leaders aren’t capable of living truth-coordinated lives, thus holding their flocks together with the fruit and fragrance coming from the Spirit within them. Some do, some don’t. Some are sincere, stumbling sheep, some are frauds and some, unfortunately, are sincerely preaching pure evil.
One piece of good news is that Jesus said this:
181:2.16 In my universe and in my Father’s universe of universes, our brethren-sons are dealt with as individuals in all their spiritual relations, but in all group relationships we unfailingly provide for definite leadership. Our kingdom is a realm of order, and where two or more will creatures act in co-operation, there is always provided the authority of leadership.
Bonita, one of the great lessons I needed many years ago came from a fellow church board member who addressed a question I expressed in a board meeting 3 weeks earlier. Gee! I had almost forgotten the question by that time. He took the time to meditate and consider his thoughtful answer. He treated me kindly by giving me his precious (thinking) time. Its OK to take three weeks to think! Some of the most precious gems may come from people who do think and pray over questions. This “side thread” reminds me of the value of patience, a lesson I am humbled at learning in my house! The collective wisdom from this group is marvelous to behold!!!!
And also, I get from your remarks, Bonita, you want to hear from those who go deeper in thinking than just posting quotes! Good!
Mark Kurtz wrote: Its OK to take three weeks to think!Sure it’s okay. But it’s hard to have a conversation that way. If this were a read-only site, people could take forever to think, all to themselves and with themselves. But this is a forum titled: Urantia Book General Discussions. Maybe it should be retitled to: Urantia Book General Thinking Forum- take all the time you like. Or, Urantia Book General Discussion with Yourself Forum, no medication required. Think about it! (Obviously I’m being sardonic. Sorry.)And being a bit hard on us all. We can all tell you are fine person, a good thinker, but even in discussion, time is valuable for formulating concepts. And, surely some of us are slower than you! A Notre Dame professor once said philosophy is a 300 year conversation. Maybe someone would like to comment on something you wrote a month ago. Thats OK.
Mark Kurtz wrote: And being a bit hard on us all.Sorry to be such a pain in the butt. And thank you Mark for making me think more deeply about this. It seems to me that I’ve been laboring under the impression that, since I started this thread and organized its presentation, I should lead the discussion. I’ve suddenly become aware that the participants of this forum do not desire such leadership. I don’t know why I thought I should function in that role, but clearly it was a mistake of judgment. Silly me . . . I don’t know what I was thinking. I feel like a fool, but it’s not the first time.So anyway, I made a list of the Master’s parables at the beginning of the thread and had hopes of going through them all with some discussion of each. We still have about 12 more to go. The topic is now open to whomever wants to do whatever moves them in whatever timeframe they feel comfortable with.Well, the Master’s Parables is an excellent topic. We ALL should realize how profoundly important are his teachings and to understand he had to resort to parables to continue his spiritual reach. Leadership on this topic? I think that is very OK! But, each participant moves at each one’s pace with involvement mitigated by energy, vacations, family agenda, work, hobbies, yard work, laundry, house cleaning, neighbors, illness, sudden changes of anything, ad infinitum! Keep the topic there and you will attract more discussion.
I did notice that the latest post is listed on the right within each topic. Now we know who has been there the latest. Keeping the topic alive will serve us all better. You are a great thinker and I’d bet there are others who appreciate your thoughtful responses. We’d all be wise to respect each one’s sovereignty of will, however.
My agenda does not allow me to get in here everyday. Sometimes I dash in and read a bit and I need to move on.
Back to the thread.
But, each participant moves at each one’s pace. . . .
And this is so true! It’s ridiculous this even is mentioned! But thanks Mark for saying it!
BonitaParticipant We all know them so well, the many different parables told by Jesus that have the same powerful message today as they did two thousand years ago. What I’d like to do in this thread is to first review the reasons why parables are useful teaching tools, as explained by Jesus, and follow with his admonitions concerning interpretation. Lastly, I’d like to take a close-up look at each of his parables. So far, I’ve come up with this list of parables. I’m not sure if they are complete, so if you think I missed one, please add it.
The Parable of the Sower; The Kingdom of Heaven is Like . . . Parables; The Parable of the Pounds; The Parable of the Talents; The Parable of the Foolish Carpenter; The Parable of the Good Shepherd; The Parable of the Faithful Servant; The Parable of the Moneylender; The Parable of the Reckoning with the Stewards; The Parable of the Laborers in the Vineyard; The Parable of the Foolish Rich Man; The Parable of the Great Supper; The Parable of the Lost Son; The Parable of the Shrewd Steward; The Parable of the Two Sons; The Parable of the Absent Landlord; The Parable of the Marriage Feast; The Good Samaritan; The Parable of Job as explained by Jesus; Parable Prayers
Me here: Looking for more in this wonderful, ongoing discussion and discovery of that which carried forth the Jesusonian Good News for 2000 years. Can’t wait. You’re a peach Bonita. I’m with you. But time demands are brutal right now. But I read here every single day whether I can post or not. Lead on…..
I’ll apologize in advance for likely not being able to return to the conversation much for several days at least after this post, but a bit of dissonance for me on the topic — an idea there’s been for me to investigate and think more deeply about from you Bonita — is the strong emphasis you’ve placed on people being sheep and of thinking of themselves and others as sheep. A few quotes of your comments for example:
“If we want to define the word shepherd/undershepherd for modern times, then I think we can safely say that living a truth-coordinated life is sufficient. But that is really a life of being a loyal sheep.”
“Worthy leaders are servants, which means they behave as sheep. They know they are sheep and never try to be anything other than sheep. They are totally loyal, wholeheartedly sincere sheep (same as the tadpole analogy).”
“A second miler is a servant, a lowly sheep following the true Shepherd.”
“We do all of the work of the kingdom as sheep and should not concern ourselves with who is a leader, who is a shepherd, who is this, that, or the other thing. We’re all sheep…”
This self assessment and consideration of ourselves as sheep is one I can’t really accept after studying it more. From the references on shepherding, sheep, flocks in the book — it really seems to me these are delivered as metaphors to impart a sense of the duties and attitudes of those who have responsibilities toward ministering to groups. It is parable and metaphor given to instruct on a few very specific points (at least as I perceive it) that people who would be leaders are to take to heart. Being the most ideal of shepherds means:
* Feeding the flocks
* Leading them to good waters
* Being so kind-hearted and concerned even for each individual that you go out to seek them when they are lost (159:1.2)
* And, amazingly, the Good Shepherd even demonstrates laying down his life for the flockThe parable itself and similar quotes from elsewhere reach me as teachings meant for shaping the attitudes of would-be teachers in how they should really consider their duties and responsibilities. The metaphor is suggestive of an attitude of watchcare and devotion toward others — and to me, it isn’t suggestive of anything more.
I think it’s an over extension of the parable’s meaning to flip it around and take it to mean we are to think of ourselves as sheep. There isn’t any passage I can find where the UB teaches that we should adopt the attitude of considering ourselves sheep. What I gather from your emphasis on this is the importance that we aren’t self-sufficient but are reliant in our progress on the Spirit of Truth and the TA, and that we should be humble. And I do agree on those ideas. You add this:
“That’s my point exactly. They are kids – sheep, not shepherds!”
These to me aren’t equivalent and there is a very crucial difference. The idea of being a sheep is metaphor and parable, it isn’t fully applicable in all particulars — hence I guess the discussion resulting here — but being a child of God is factual and full reality and richly applicable in all particulars.
I think the attitude of thinking of ourselves and others as children of God is the most accurate and by far the most conducive to spiritual progress. What is of further help for those who would be leaders is also, yes, to learn grace notes from the Good Shepherd on how to care for his flock. But being a child of God already supplies the humility of the “sheep” concept you propose to internalize while at the same time it delivers the full reality and dignity of kinship and growth partnership with universe reality. To me it wholly supersedes the idea of thinking about myself or others as sheep.
As Jesus said (148:7.2): “How much more valuable is a man than a sheep!”
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