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Posts
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Where and how is karma experienced? Here. Now. In the mortal life.
Do you mean the physical life? Causality continuity is a material law, and in the next life we are still mostly material, so I think the law will apply on the mansion worlds as well, don’t you?
101:10.3 The material level of law provides for causality continuity, the unending response of effect to antecedent action; the mind level suggests the perpetuation of ideational continuity, the unceasing flow of conceptual potentiality from pre-existent conceptions. But neither of these levels of the universe discloses to the inquiring mortal an avenue of escape from partiality of status and from the intolerable suspense of being a transient reality in the universe, a temporal personality doomed to be extinguished upon the exhaustion of the limited life energies.
Karma has little to do with the actual choices we make but everything to do with the motives of our choices.
Why wouldn’t it be both? Personally, I don’t think the actual repercussions of Eve’s default had as much to do with her motives as her actions. It didn’t really matter what her motive was, her action was evil and we’re all dealing with it every day. She could have come up with a hundred motives and it wouldn’t have mattered in terms of cause and effect. I think her motive mattered in her judgment whereas the karma, the causality continuity that repercussed on the material level, is still repercussing all the way to the mansion worlds.
The fruits of the spirit arrive upon our choices which are based on the motive of love and service.
Aren’t love and service fruits of the spirit, the end-product? Are you saying the fruits of the spirit be based upon the fruits of the spirit?
193:2.2And the fruits of the divine spirit which are yielded in the lives of spirit-born and God-knowing mortals are: loving service, unselfish devotion, courageous loyalty, sincere fairness, enlightened honesty, undying hope, confiding trust, merciful ministry, unfailing g goodness, forgiving tolerance, and enduring peace.
Bradly wrote:Our motive in choosing determines which fruit comes forth on the individual branch.I think you’re talking about morals here, not fruits of the spirit. There’s only one motive that produces fruit of the spirit and that is to do the will of God. If the highest good, righteousness, is unconscious, then the true motive is not conscious either. It has to be that way because righteousness is a gift that comes with sonship, a relationship with God. It’s all part of the relationship.It seems to me that if I was constantly analyzing my own motives, such a bad habit would entice me to also analyze the motives of others, and that leads to suspicion, a truly evil mind-set, so I don’t condone it. I believe there should be only one motivation embraced with wholehearted devotion, and that is to do the will of God. In order to do the will of God you have to have a relationship with him, and that is the focus of everything. Only one motive for fruits of the spirit, lots of different motives for morality. The final quote below sums it up brilliantly.140:10.5 While eating supper, Jesus had the talk with Matthew in which he explained that the morality of any act is determined by the individual’s motive.170:3.9 The righteousness of any act must be measured by the motive; the highest forms of good are therefore unconscious. Jesus was never concerned with morals or ethics as such. He was wholly concerned with that inward and spiritual fellowship with God the Father which so certainly and directly manifests itself as outward and loving service for man. He taught that the religion of the kingdom is a genuine personal experience which no man can contain within himself; that the consciousness of being a member of the family of believers leads inevitably to the practice of the precepts of the family conduct, the service of one’s brothers and sisters in the effort to enhance and enlarge the brotherhood.150.5.5 In summing up his final statement, Jesus said: “You cannot buy salvation; you cannot earn righteousness. Salvation is the gift of God, and righteousness is the natural fruit of the spirit-born life of sonship in the kingdom. You are not to be saved because you live a righteous life; rather is it that you live a righteous life because you have already been saved, have recognized sonship as the gift of God and service in the kingdom as the supreme delight of life on earth. When men believe this gospel, which is a revelation of the goodness of God, they will be led to voluntary repentance of all known sin. Realization of sonship is incompatible with the desire to sin. Kingdom believers hunger for righteousness and thirst for divine perfection.”
But, we are taught, that which causes such suffering in our material life does not survive our death.
The suffering itself or the experience of having suffered? I think the experience lives on, especially if it results in spiritual growth. And we know that spiritual growth is being forged out on our planet, in fact our entire universe, between the anvil of justice and the hammer of suffering.
9:1.8 The universe of your origin is being forged out between the anvil of justice and the hammer of suffering; but those who wield the hammer are the children of mercy, the spirit offspring of the Infinite Spirit.
23.2.5 The confusion and turmoil of Urantia do not signify that the Paradise Rulers lack either interest or ability to manage affairs differently. The Creators are possessed of full power to make Urantia a veritable paradise, but such an Eden would not contribute to the development of those strong, noble, and experienced characters which the Gods are so surely forging out on your world between the anvils of necessity and the hammers of anguish. Your anxieties and sorrows, your trials and disappointments, are just as much a part of the divine plan on your sphere as are the exquisite perfection and infinite adaptation of all things to their supreme purpose on the worlds of the central and perfect universe.
I don’t think we are actually free from suffering until after the last rest of time when we awake on Paradise itself.
27:1.5 The last rest of time has been enjoyed; the last transition sleep has been experienced; now you awake to life everlasting on the shores of the eternal abode. “And there shall be no more sleep. The presence of God and his Son are before you, and you are eternally his servants; you have seen his face, and his name is your spirit. There shall be no night there; and they need no light of the sun, for the Great Source and Center gives them light; they shall live forever and ever. And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; there shall be no more death, neither sorrow nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain, for the former things have passed away.”
Even the celestials suffer.
3:6.6 Does the Paradise Father suffer? I do not know. The Creator Sons most certainly can and sometimes do, even as do mortals. The Eternal Son and the Infinite Spirit suffer in a modified sense. I think the Universal Father does, but I cannot understand how; perhaps through the personality circuit or through the individuality of the Thought Adjusters and other bestowals of his eternal nature. He has said of the mortal races, “In all your afflictions I am afflicted.” He unquestionably experiences a fatherly and sympathetic understanding; he may truly suffer, but I do not comprehend the nature thereof.
They progress upward into a new form that releases us from materialism . . .
How are you defining materialism? In at least one place in TUB they define materialism as atheism (56:10.4). I don’t think you mean that. In another place they equate materialism to spiritual blindness (70:2.12), and I don’t think you mean that, but I don’t know.
Apparently we are still mostly material beings when we awake on the mansion worlds so I don’t know what you mean by being released from it, especially since the “mark of the beast”, our material nature, is still with us on the mansion worlds.
48:1.4 The early morontia life in the local systems is very much like that of your present material world, becoming less physical and more truly morontial on the constellation study worlds. And as you advance to the Salvington spheres, you increasingly attain spiritual levels.
47:9.1 Any discernible differences between those mortals hailing from the isolated and retarded worlds and those survivors from the more advanced and enlightened spheres are virtually obliterated during the sojourn on the seventh mansion world. Here you will be purged of all the remnants of unfortunate heredity, unwholesome environment, and unspiritual planetary tendencies. The last remnants of the “mark of the beast” are here eradicated.
Karma must be cleansed. According to the UB, we experience such a karma cleanse by death.
Where does it say that?
Hi,
Revelation and their words of fact and truth gifted to us and which we share and study here together in discovery and wonder. Bradly
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… supporting the idea there is more to learn! Mark
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… supporting the idea with you about the revelators comitting stuff that might come as a surprise to us later. Bonita
= … so do I
… to a point after 31 years of reading … doubtfull and flabergasted “Did the 5 th epochal revelation is as cosmic alive expansion ? ”
Sincerely, reading the UB sometimes astonish my senses when I read a passage whom past unnoticed precedent readings !!!Probably not. Must be the daly renewal of my spirit.
Mark you resume logically and serenity my emotionnaly outburst indignation.
As the revelators point out “if” we are aware” of what represent this 5 th revelation,
we didn’t will particulary on this dedicated forum spend energy with pretendered fallacious arguments [period]
AndréWell Bonita…so many objections and disagreements, where to begin?
On the karma cleanse…there is no punishment on the Mansion Worlds for the evil or sins committed during our material life. We leave behind all that is not of survival quality. We may arrive with some vestiges of material and animal legacy. But we mature and progress beyond those without suffering punishment for prior errors. You need the quotes for that?
As we progress in the Spirit, we are released from identification with the material realms and gravity effects of the animal nature. As you know…why so argumentative I wonder?
So you claim the celestials suffer from pain, disease, fear, loneliness, anger, selfishness, ego, ignorance of origin and the friendly universe, immaturity, mortal personality distortions, hate, bigotry, discrimination, war, poverty, unfairness, and injustice??!! You don’t believe there is relief from the suffering and tge very human sources of suffering in heaven? How peculiar! How unfortunate.
Eve’s motive was impatience. Or so says the UB. God judges our motive according to the Papers. It is our motive that is perfected between this life and Paradise according to the text. Choices, actions, tactics, strategy, and timing are matters of wisdom but such errors are not the error of an impure or disloyal heart. Motive is key to our spiritual progress and experiential wisdom, not our moral or ethical conscience, no.
I think the laws of karma in the material life is largely replaced by education and mota in heaven. Consider the differences in our world and experience and that on a world already settled in Light and Life. How much less sin and evil is there in heaven and on worlds of L&L?
Some real fine hair splitting there Bonita. What’s up with that I wonder?
Reincarnation refers to a process of survival after death by which a certain immaterial and individual principle would accomplish successive passages of life in different bodies on earth.
At the death of the physical body, the soul leaves it to inhabit, after a new birth, another body on earth.
It is a series of existences and rebirths on earth in a new body for each incarnation in progressive improvement.
To be cosmologically logical and coherent, man has had to introduce into this hypothesis an esoteric, analogical and cosmological vision that is only at the level of our solar system.
The Urantia Book approach, on the other hand, is at the level of the cosmos in its entirety and the human hypothesis as described above becomes childish, unnecessary and much narrower.
Best regards,
Samuel
__________________________________________________________________________________
La réincarnation fait référence à un processus de survie après la mort par lequel un certain principe immatériel et individuel accomplirait des passages successifs de vie dans différents corps sur terre.
A la mort du corps physique, l’âme le quitte pour habiter, après une nouvelle naissance, un autre corps sur terre.
C’est une série d’existences et de renaissances sur terre dans un corps nouveau pour chaque incarnation en amélioration progressive.
Pour être cosmologiquement logique et cohérent, l’homme a dû introduire dans cette hypothèse une vision ésotérique, analogique et cosmologique qui n’est qu’au niveau de notre système solaire.
L’approche du Livre d’Urantia, d’autre part, est au niveau du cosmos dans son intégralité et l’hypothèse humaine telle que décrite ci-dessus devient enfantine, inutile et beaucoup plus étroite.
Meilleures salutations,
Samuel
Friendship enhances joys, glorifies the triumphs of life and fidelity is a treasure of the soul.
On the karma cleanse…there is no punishment on the Mansion Worlds for the evil or sins committed during our material life. We leave behind all that is not of survival quality. We may arrive with some vestiges of material and animal legacy. But we mature and progress beyond those without suffering punishment for prior errors. You need the quotes for that?
Does this mean that you view karma as punishment? That’s not what is meant by causality continuity, which is the way TUB defines karma.
94:3.5 The karma principle of causality continuity is, again, very close to the truth of the repercussional synthesis of all time-space actions in the Deity presence of the Supreme; . . .
As you see, there is no mention at all about punishment. Attaching the idea of punishment seems to be your own personal embellishment, in my opinion. The causality continuity of our actions on earth have psychic repercussions, some of which will require rehabilitation on the mansion worlds. Habitual wrong thinking is not magically erased upon awakening on mansonia. That’s the purpose of the Thought Adjuster, to adjust thought.
So you claim the celestials suffer from pain, disease, fear, loneliness, anger, selfishness, ego, ignorance of origin and the friendly universe, immaturity, mortal personality distortions, hate, bigotry, discrimination, war, poverty, unfairness, and injustice??!! You don’t believe there is relief from the suffering and tge very human sources of suffering in heaven? How peculiar! How unfortunate
Holy Cow Bradly! How can you write such horribly erroneous things! You’ve made a quantum leap from suffering to sin. That’s exactly the rubbish thinking that Jesus tried to correct with the story of Job. How do you get selfishness, hate, bigotry and injustice from suffering? That is so wrong. Besides, can’t you read the quote? What do you think it means when it says that even the Paradise Father suffers?
3:6.6 Does the Paradise Father suffer? I do not know. The Creator Sons most certainly can and sometimes do, even as do mortals. The Eternal Son and the Infinite Spirit suffer in a modified sense. I think the Universal Father does, but I cannot understand how; perhaps through the personality circuit or through the individuality of the Thought Adjusters and other bestowals of his eternal nature. He has said of the mortal races, “In all your afflictions I am afflicted.” He unquestionably experiences a fatherly and sympathetic understanding; he may truly suffer, but I do not comprehend the nature thereof.
Obviously you are claiming that the Creator Sons, the Eternal Son, the Infinite Spirit and even the Paradise Father are victims of ” . . . disease, fear, loneliness, anger, selfishness, ego, ignorance of origin and the friendly universe, immaturity, mortal personality distortions, hate, bigotry, discrimination, war, poverty, unfairness, and injustice??!! ” If you can’t see the twisted logic here, then I feel very, very sorry for you.
Eve’s motive was impatience. Or so says the UB. God judges our motive according to the Papers. It is our motive that is perfected between this life and Paradise according to the text. Choices, actions, tactics, strategy, and timing are matters of wisdom but such errors are not the error of an impure or disloyal heart. Motive is key to our spiritual progress and experiential wisdom, not our moral or ethical conscience, no.
Again, you’ve completely misunderstood the point. The subject was karma. You wrote:
Bradly wrote:Karma has little to do with the actual choices we make but everything to do with the motives of our choices.I say it’s the opposite. Karma has everything to do with actual choices and less to do with motives. Who cares what Eve’s motive was, whatever it was she thought it was high and wise. She was wrong. But it was her choice to act that had karmic consequences. It was her actions that set up the repercussions of causality continuity. That means the ripples of cause and effect. She could have thought about and refined her motives for centuries without karmic repercussions. It was her decision to act that did. Hitler conjured up his twisted ideas for decades, but not until he acted on his evil thoughts did he begin the cascade of cause and effect the world unfortunately had to experience.I think the laws of karma in the material life is largely replaced by education and mota in heaven. Consider the differences in our world and experience and that on a world already settled in Light and Life.
The laws of karma are close to the universal law of causality continuity. That law does not change anywhere in the universe. When a personality acts there are consequences from here to eternity. The beauty of having a personality is that it has been released from the fetters of antecedent causation.
5:6.9 The bestowal of creature personality confers relative liberation from slavish response to antecedent causation, and the personalities of all such moral beings, evolutionary or otherwise, are centered in the personality of the Universal Father.
111:4.8 It is the creativity of the inner world that is most subject to your direction because there your personality is so largely liberated from the fetters of the laws of antecedent causation. There is associated with personality a limited sovereignty of will.
A personality can imagine and calculate the effects of its actions and thus choose consequences. A personality choosing to do the will of God sets up a causality continuity that repercusses in the Supreme. Choosing an evil act sets up a causality continuity that does not repercuss in the Supreme.Bradly wrote: How much less sin and evil is there in heaven and on worlds of L&L?Of course you know that sin and evil don’t really exist anywhere, right? Those things are not reality. They are merely potentials throughout the entire universe. It’s about acting, changing a potential to an actual, that sets up causality continuity. Note in the next quote that potential evil is time-existent in the universe and sin is potential in all realms.54:0.2 The Gods neither create evil nor permit sin and rebellion. Potential evil is time-existent in a universe embracing differential levels of perfection meanings and values. Sin is potential in all realms where imperfect beings are endowed with the ability to choose between good and evil. The very conflicting presence of truth and untruth, fact and falsehood, constitutes the potentiality of error. The deliberate choice of evil constitutes sin; the willful rejection of truth is error; the persistent pursuit of sin and error is iniquity.I think many of your ideas are tangled up in theological myths. The only quote in TUB that has to do with karma mentions the Supreme, so give me a break and shed the notion that it has something to do with punishment, and that suffering is synonymous with sin. That’s a myth left over from the days of Siddhartha.
Some real fine hair splitting there Bonita. What’s up with that I wonder?
It’s not fine hair-spitting at all. You wrote some really confusional things that I think need to be addressed. Anyone reading TUB knows that karma does not mean punishment. They also know that suffering does not mean sin. We do know that you reap what you sow. That’s a fact, “they who sow the wind shall reap the whirlwind.”
2:3.2 “Be not deceived; God is not mocked, for whatsoever a man sows that shall he also reap.”
With all due respect….there seems to be a pervasive misunderstanding and general ignorance here of what reincarnation is. As stated previously, while karma should be divorced and separated from reincarnation, reincarnation cannot be so separated. The law of karma in the religions of billions of people for thousands of years includes regression and punishment for evil deeds in the prior life. To deny this fact and function of reincarnation reveals a blindness and personal redefinition of reincarnation that will require some evidence. I look forward to that. Have you ever wondered why so many Hindus, Buddhists, Jains, and others who believe in reincarnation are vegetarians? Or why some even refuse to kill bugs? Do you know the basis of the caste system? Karma and reincarnation.
[ˈkärmə]
NOUN
(in Hinduism and Buddhism) the sum of a person’s actions in this and previous states of existence, viewed as deciding their fate in future existences.synonyms:
fate · destiny · fortune · providence · the stars · God’s will · what is written in the stars · one’s doom · one’s portion · one’s lot · one’s lot in life · predestination · preordination · predetermination · what is to come · the writing on the wall · luck · chance · one’s dole · predestinyinformal
destiny or fate, following as effect from cause.
synonyms:
fortune · fate · destiny · lot · stars · what is written in the stars · kismet · fortuity · serendipity · chance · accident · a twist of fate · contingency · circumstancesFrom Wiki:
Karma (/ˈkɑːrmə/; Sanskrit: कर्म, romanized: karma, IPA: [ˈkɐɽmɐ] (listen); Pali: kamma) means action, work or deed;
[1] it also refers to the spiritual principle of cause and effect where intent and actions of an individual (cause) influence the future of that individual (effect).
[2] Good intent and good deeds contribute to good karma and happier rebirths, while bad intent and bad deeds contribute to bad karma and bad rebirths.[3][4]
The philosophy of karma is closely associated with the idea of rebirth in many schools of Indian religions (particularly Hinduism, Buddhism, Jainism and Sikhism[5]) as well as Taoism.[6] In these schools, karma in the present affects one’s future in the current life, as well as the nature and quality of future lives – one’s saṃsāra.[7][8]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karma
Reincarnation: The word “reincarnation” derives from Latin, literally meaning, “entering the flesh again”. The Greek equivalent metempsychosis (μετεμψύχωσις) derives from meta (change) and empsykhoun (to put a soul into),[13] a term attributed to Pythagoras.[14] An alternate term is transmigration implying migration from one life (body) to another.[15] Reincarnation refers to the belief that an aspect of every human being (or all living beings in some cultures) continues to exist after death, this aspect may be the soul or mind or consciousness or something transcendent which is reborn in an interconnected cycle of existence; the transmigration belief varies by culture, and is envisioned to be in the form of a newly born human being, or animal, or plant, or spirit, or as a being in some other non-human realm of existence.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reincarnation
It is my own contention that very few of us in the West know what the definitions of reincarnation or karma are and those New Age butterflies and gadflies who “believe” in reincarnation and pyramid hats made of straws and tin foil and wear crystals and copper bands are simply primitives with superstitions they do not even understand or can explain nor do they take the time or do the work to understand. It is purely impatient immaturity and laziness, a grasping at anything to save us that does not require actually changing the seat of our identity and doing the work of cleansing our motives and heart.
Personal transformation and transcendence from the material mind to the spiritized mind takes attention and effort driven by true intention and the love motive. Again, I would offer the Good News that is given us in the Papers….no matter our beliefs and no matter how false and fictitious they may be, still does the Spirit within connect us to God and minister to us faith and faith assurance and truth and truth assurance that we might grow soul and survive this life to attain our destiny and legacy as the beloved children of God!!!
On the karma cleanse…there is no punishment on the Mansion Worlds for the evil or sins committed during our material life. We leave behind all that is not of survival quality. We may arrive with some vestiges of material and animal legacy. But we mature and progress beyond those without suffering punishment for prior errors. You need the quotes for that?
Does this mean that you view karma as punishment? That’s not what is meant by causality continuity, which is the way TUB defines karma.
94:3.5 The karma principle of causality continuity is, again, very close to the truth of the repercussional synthesis of all time-space actions in the Deity presence of the Supreme; . . .
As you see, there is no mention at all about punishment. Attaching the idea of punishment seems to be your own personal embellishment, in my opinion. The causality continuity of our actions on earth have psychic repercussions, some of which will require rehabilitation on the mansion worlds. Habitual wrong thinking is not magically erased upon awakening on mansonia. That’s the purpose of the Thought Adjuster, to adjust thought.
Bradly here: So….you seem intent upon disagreement and casting me in the worst light possible. Why so I wonder? What has caused this radical shift in your demeanor and intentions here regarding me? I am the same person you have agreed with and complimented for 8 years but now I get derision and challenge and sarcasm at every turn and post. Sigh….
Karmic punishment, as I clearly and redundantly stated (!!!), is a very human myth regarding the afterlife as my post above readily proves, thank you. Why do you put words in my mouth Sister? This is the same as false accusations and testimony. Please stop this evil practice!
So you claim the celestials suffer from pain, disease, fear, loneliness, anger, selfishness, ego, ignorance of origin and the friendly universe, immaturity, mortal personality distortions, hate, bigotry, discrimination, war, poverty, unfairness, and injustice??!! You don’t believe there is relief from the suffering and tge very human sources of suffering in heaven? How peculiar! How unfortunate
Holy Cow Bradly! How can you write such horribly erroneous things! You’ve made a quantum leap from suffering to sin. That’s exactly the rubbish thinking that Jesus tried to correct with the story of Job. How do you get selfishness, hate, bigotry and injustice from suffering? That is so wrong. Besides, can’t you read the quote? What do you think it means when it says that even the Paradise Father suffers?
3:6.6 Does the Paradise Father suffer? I do not know. The Creator Sons most certainly can and sometimes do, even as do mortals. The Eternal Son and the Infinite Spirit suffer in a modified sense. I think the Universal Father does, but I cannot understand how; perhaps through the personality circuit or through the individuality of the Thought Adjusters and other bestowals of his eternal nature. He has said of the mortal races, “In all your afflictions I am afflicted.” He unquestionably experiences a fatherly and sympathetic understanding; he may truly suffer, but I do not comprehend the nature thereof.
Obviously you are claiming that the Creator Sons, the Eternal Son, the Infinite Spirit and even the Paradise Father are victims of ” . . . disease, fear, loneliness, anger, selfishness, ego, ignorance of origin and the friendly universe, immaturity, mortal personality distortions, hate, bigotry, discrimination, war, poverty, unfairness, and injustice??!! ” If you can’t see the twisted logic here, then I feel very, very sorry for you.
Bradly here: Please save your false pity. Again, here and clearly you twist my words to suit your insults and defy the actual words posted by me in response to YOUR CLAIM that suffering continues in heaven!! Not my claim, your claim!! Your accusations here are repulsive and vile Bonita. How grotesque a post!
I posted a question to you above: “So YOU claim the celestials suffer from pain, disease, fear, loneliness, anger, selfishness, ego, ignorance of origin and the friendly universe, immaturity, mortal personality distortions, hate, bigotry, discrimination, war, poverty, unfairness, and injustice??!! You don’t believe there is relief from the suffering and tge very human sources of suffering in heaven? How peculiar! How unfortunate.”
That was in response to your claim: “I don’t think we are actually free from suffering until after the last rest of time when we awake on Paradise itself.”
Your inability to understand my posts should not result in your own hyperbole and direct personal attacks and false accusations and the twisting and tormenting of my words to say things I did not say, have never said, and would never say. How sad…for us all.
Eve’s motive was impatience. Or so says the UB. God judges our motive according to the Papers. It is our motive that is perfected between this life and Paradise according to the text. Choices, actions, tactics, strategy, and timing are matters of wisdom but such errors are not the error of an impure or disloyal heart. Motive is key to our spiritual progress and experiential wisdom, not our moral or ethical conscience, no.
Again, you’ve completely misunderstood the point. The subject was karma. You wrote:
Bradly wrote:Karma has little to do with the actual choices we make but everything to do with the motives of our choices.I say it’s the opposite. Karma has everything to do with actual choices and less to do with motives. Who cares what Eve’s motive was, whatever it was she thought it was high and wise. She was wrong. But it was her choice to act that had karmic consequences. It was her actions that set up the repercussions of causality continuity. That means the ripples of cause and effect. She could have thought about and refined her motives for centuries without karmic repercussions. It was her decision to act that did. Hitler conjured up his twisted ideas for decades, but not until he acted on his evil thoughts did he begin the cascade of cause and effect the world unfortunately had to experience.We will disagree on this one. I believe you misunderstand the text. Motive has everything to do with choice and act and the UB clearly says so. We are measured by our motives in our Circle Progress and Ascendency…not by our wisdom and strategies and tactics. That’s why Eve’s choice was deemed merely default and not rebellion. Jesus taught that the mind sins long before the tongue or hand in the lesson on lust. Have you read it? How does God measure the mind and heart? Only man measures the act. God measures the motivation for the choices made. Need the text Bonita????
140:3.19 (1571.6) “I warn you against false prophets who will come to you in sheep’s clothing, while on the inside they are as ravening wolves. By their fruits you shall know them. Do men gather grapes from thorns or figs from thistles? Even so, every good tree brings forth good fruit, but the corrupt tree bears evil fruit. A good tree cannot yield evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree produce good fruit. Every tree that does not bring forth good fruit is presently hewn down and cast into the fire. In gaining an entrance into the kingdom of heaven, it is the motive that counts. My Father looks into the hearts of men and judges by their inner longings and their sincere intentions.
140:6.4 (1576.4) Then said Simon Peter: “Master, if you have a new commandment, we would hear it. Reveal the new way to us.” Jesus answered Peter: “You have heard it said by those who teach the law: ‘You shall not kill; that whosoever kills shall be subject to judgment.’ But I look beyond the act to uncover the motive. I declare to you that every one who is angry with his brother is in danger of condemnation. He who nurses hatred in his heart and plans vengeance in his mind stands in danger of judgment. You must judge your fellows by their deeds; the Father in heaven judges by the intent.
140:6.5 (1576.5) “You have heard the teachers of the law say, ‘You shall not commit adultery.’ But I say to you that every man who looks upon a woman with intent to lust after her has already committed adultery with her in his heart. You can only judge men by their acts, but my Father looks into the hearts of his children and in mercy adjudges them in accordance with their intents and real desires.”
140:10.5 (1585.3) The one characteristic of Jesus’ teaching was that the morality of his philosophy originated in the personal relation of the individual to God—this very child-father relationship. Jesus placed emphasis on the individual, not on the race or nation. While eating supper, Jesus had the talk with Matthew in which he explained that the morality of any act is determined by the individual’s motive. Jesus’ morality was always positive. The golden rule as restated by Jesus demands active social contact; the older negative rule could be obeyed in isolation. Jesus stripped morality of all rules and ceremonies and elevated it to majestic levels of spiritual thinking and truly righteous living.
140:10.6 (1585.4) This new religion of Jesus was not without its practical implications, but whatever of practical political, social, or economic value there is to be found in his teaching is the natural outworking of this inner experience of the soul as it manifests the fruits of the spirit in the spontaneous daily ministry of genuine personal religious experience.
Bradly here: Bonita , your motive here by this post seems sinister and not at all kind.
I think the laws of karma in the material life is largely replaced by education and mota in heaven. Consider the differences in our world and experience and that on a world already settled in Light and Life.
The laws of karma are close to the universal law of causality continuity. That law does not change anywhere in the universe. When a personality acts there are consequences from here to eternity. The beauty of having a personality is that it has been released from the fetters of antecedent causation.
5:6.9 The bestowal of creature personality confers relative liberation from slavish response to antecedent causation, and the personalities of all such moral beings, evolutionary or otherwise, are centered in the personality of the Universal Father. 111:4.8 It is the creativity of the inner world that is most subject to your direction because there your personality is so largely liberated from the fetters of the laws of antecedent causation. There is associated with personality a limited sovereignty of will.
A personality can imagine and calculate the effects of its actions and thus choose consequences. A personality choosing to do the will of God sets up a causality continuity that repercusses in the Supreme. Choosing an evil act sets up a causality continuity that does not repercuss in the Supreme.Bradly wrote: How much less sin and evil is there in heaven and on worlds of L&L?Of course you know that sin and evil don’t really exist anywhere, right? Those things are not reality. They are merely potentials throughout the entire universe. It’s about acting, changing a potential to an actual, that sets up causality continuity. Note in the next quote that potential evil is time-existent in the universe and sin is potential in all realms.54:0.2 The Gods neither create evil nor permit sin and rebellion. Potential evil is time-existent in a universe embracing differential levels of perfection meanings and values. Sin is potential in all realms where imperfect beings are endowed with the ability to choose between good and evil. The very conflicting presence of truth and untruth, fact and falsehood, constitutes the potentiality of error. The deliberate choice of evil constitutes sin; the willful rejection of truth is error; the persistent pursuit of sin and error is iniquity.I think many of your ideas are tangled up in theological myths. The only quote in TUB that has to do with karma mentions the Supreme, so give me a break and shed the notion that it has something to do with punishment, and that suffering is synonymous with sin. That’s a myth left over from the days of Siddhartha.
Some real fine hair splitting there Bonita. What’s up with that I wonder?
It’s not fine hair-spitting at all. You wrote some really confusional things that I think need to be addressed. Anyone reading TUB knows that karma does not mean punishment. They also know that suffering does not mean sin. We do know that you reap what you sow. That’s a fact, “they who sow the wind shall reap the whirlwind.”
2:3.2 “Be not deceived; God is not mocked, for whatsoever a man sows that shall he also reap.”
Bradly here: Please stop judging me and badgering me. Your beliefs are your own. So is your confusion. This is not discussion. This is an act of aggression on your part and is easily seen by all here as such. Perhaps you might leave me alone??? It is so sad to see you turn on me so suddenly and viciously. Sad indeed.
Bradly
Thanks for the religions of the world lecture Bradly. I think we all know that, or at least I do having been a student of world religions for over 60 years. But we are here to discuss the new teachings given to us in TUB. The point should be how these new teachings shine truth on old beliefs. We’re all very familiar with the old beliefs but not everyone is familiar with the new teachings. That’s where the emphasis is best placed in my opinion . . . particularly on a TUB forum.
Karma is a belief of human evolutionary religion. It is given new meaning by divine revelation, and that meaning has to do with causality continuity. There’s no need to decorate it with the ornaments of ancient beliefs. As Samuel says,
The Urantia Book approach, on the other hand, is at the level of the cosmos in its entirety and the human hypothesis as described above becomes childish, unnecessary and much narrower.
It’s really unnecessary.
Personal transformation and transcendence from the material mind to the spiritized mind takes attention and effort driven by true intention and the love motive.
And what is “true intention” and love of what? Please be more specific. Remember what Cano said about true intentions:
75:4.5 . . . but Cano, not knowing the import or significance of such admonitions, had assured her that men and women with good motives and true intentions could do no evil . . .
Obviously both of them thought their intentions were true, but they were evil. And why not describe the love motive more precisely? As I’m sure you know, there are so many different kinds of love motives from banal to divine. My love of fine wine isn’t going to make me more spiritual. When you write to edify people’s understanding of things there needs to be greater clarity and less confusional phrases. Love is a relationship and there’s only one motive worth one’s effort, and it’s to love God above all else. If Eve had been thinking about her love of God instead of herself then she may not have suffered from falsehood. Even the shadow of a hair’s turning can constitute falsehood.
48:6.33 The shadow of a hair’s turning, premeditated for an untrue purpose, the slightest twisting or perversion of that which is principle — these constitute falseness.
So to make it very simple, as you say, “personal transformation and transcendence from the material mind to the spiritized mind” occurs as a result of choosing to do God’s will. That’s it. No need to confuse it with motives and intentions which can be unwittingly erroneous, thus evil. It’s all about choice . . . decisions, decisions and more decisions . . . leaving a trail of actualized potentials that repercuss in the Supreme, and the only actuals that repercuss are those that conform to God’s will.
1:3.6 But the minds of such evolutionary creatures originate in the local universes and must gain divine perfection by achieving those experiential transformations of spiritual attainment which are the inevitable result of a creature’s choosing to do the will of the Father in heaven.
All this talk about motives and intentions may seem righteous and virtuous to you, but even the best of intentions, moral as they may seem, do not always conform with the cosmos, or divine plan. Morality is subspiritual.
16:7.10 Moral acts are those human performances which are characterized by the highest intelligence, directed by selective discrimination in the choice of superior ends as well as in the selection of moral means to attain these ends. Such conduct is virtuous. Supreme virtue, then, is wholeheartedly to choose to do the will of the Father in heaven.
196:3.25 The moral nature is superanimal but subspiritual.
that we might grow soul
Why do you refer to soul growth like that? You make growing a soul sounds like growing potatoes. You do know that the soul has a mind and a character right? You do know the soul is a relationship, a relationship with the Adjuster. It deserves to be referred to in a less nebulous way than a garden patch. I do think we can grow the moral seedbed within the material mind, that makes sense, but to refer to the soul as though it were a substance rather than a relationship degrades it. You won’t find the phrase “grow soul” anywhere in TUB so why do you perpetuate such a misrepresentation? It’s always “a” soul, or “the” soul. I think the celestials know better how it should be said.
111:2.7 3. The relationship between material mind and divine spirit, which connotes a value and carries a meaning not found in either of the contributing factors to such an association. The reality of this unique relationship is neither material nor spiritual but morontial. It is the soul.
Really???!!!! Stop judging and attacking me!!
And the topic here is reincarnation. I didn’t pick it and I sure know what the UB teaches about it…as shown by my many posts. I also know the difference between the primitive myth of karma and the UB teachings about reciprocation.
Suddenly you are as mean as a snake Bonita. Perhaps I should retire for a season?? You appear to have seized control here by your obvious and shrill superiority. Oh well….
110:6.3 (1209.3) The psychic circles are not exclusively intellectual, neither are they wholly morontial; they have to do with personality status, mind attainment, soul growth, and Adjuster attunement. The successful traversal of these levels demands the harmonious functioning of the entire personality, not merely of some one phase thereof. The growth of the parts does not equal the true maturation of the whole; the parts really grow in proportion to the expansion of the entire self—the whole self—material, intellectual, and spiritual.
that we might grow soul
Why do you refer to soul growth like that? You make growing a soul sounds like growing potatoes. You do know that the soul has a mind and a character right? You do know the soul is a relationship, a relationship with the Adjuster. It deserves to be referred to in a less nebulous way than a garden patch. I do think we can grow the moral seedbed within the material mind, that makes sense, but to refer to the soul as though it were a substance rather than a relationship degrades it. You won’t find the phrase “grow soul” anywhere in TUB so why do you perpetuate such a misrepresentation? It’s always “a” soul, or “the” soul. I think the celestials know better how it should be said.
111:2.7 3. The relationship between material mind and divine spirit, which connotes a value and carries a meaning not found in either of the contributing factors to such an association. The reality of this unique relationship is neither material nor spiritual but morontial. It is the soul.
I wonder if you really care about the teachings anymore or just wish to punish me for some unknown transgression??!!
111:0.2 (1215.2) The concept of a soul and of an indwelling spirit is not new to Urantia; it has frequently appeared in the various systems of planetary beliefs. Many of the Oriental as well as some of the Occidental faiths have perceived that man is divine in heritage as well as human in inheritance. The feeling of the inner presence in addition to the external omnipresence of Deity has long formed a part of many Urantian religions. Men have long believed that there is something growing within the human nature, something vital that is destined to endure beyond the short span of temporal life.
117:3.6 (1282.1) Mortal man, being a creature, is not exactly like the Supreme Being, who is deity, but man’s evolution does in some ways resemble the growth of the Supreme. Man consciously grows from the material toward the spiritual by the strength, power, and persistency of his own decisions; he also grows as his Thought Adjuster develops new techniques for reaching down from the spiritual to the morontial soul levels; and once the soul comes into being, it begins to grow in and of itself.
117:6.5 (1288.4) The morontia soul of an evolving mortal is really the son of the Adjuster action of the Universal Father and the child of the cosmic reaction of the Supreme Being, the Universal Mother. The mother influence dominates the human personality throughout the local universe childhood of the growing soul. The influence of the Deity parents becomes more equal after the Adjuster fusion and during the superuniverse career, but when the creatures of time begin the traversal of the central universe of eternity, the Father nature becomes increasingly manifest, attaining its height of finite manifestation upon the recognition of the Universal Father and the admission into the Corps of the Finality.
Bradly here: So….you seem intent upon disagreement and casting me in the worst light possible. Why so I wonder? What has caused this radical shift in your demeanor and intentions here regarding me? I am the same person you have agreed with and complimented for 8 years but now I get derision and challenge and sarcasm at every turn and post. Sigh….
You used to make sense. But even then I called you out every time you didn’t. No change.
Bradly here: Please save your false pity. Again, here and clearly you twist my words to suit your insults and defy the actual words posted by me in response to YOUR CLAIM that suffering continues in heaven!! Not my claim, your claim!! Your accusations here are repulsive and vile Bonita. How grotesque a post!
Oh so wrong. I will ask again, did you read the quote?? It clearly says that even the most divine personalities suffer. Are you saying that TUB is repulsive and grotesque?? What a thing to say. Let me provide the quote for the third time. If you actually read it, perhaps you will realize that these are not my words but the words written by an Orvonton Divine Counselor, Chief of the Corps of Superuniverse Personalities who unequivocally states there is suffering even at the level of the Trinity. READ AND DIGEST PLEASE
3:6.6 Does the Paradise Father suffer? I do not know. The Creator Sons most certainly can and sometimes do, even as do mortals. The Eternal Son and the Infinite Spirit suffer in a modified sense. I think the Universal Father does, but I cannot understand how; perhaps through the personality circuit or through the individuality of the Thought Adjusters and other bestowals of his eternal nature. He has said of the mortal races, “In all your afflictions I am afflicted.” He unquestionably experiences a fatherly and sympathetic understanding; he may truly suffer, but I do not comprehend the nature thereof.
I posted a question to you above: “So YOU claim the celestials suffer from pain, disease, fear, loneliness, anger, selfishness, ego, ignorance of origin and the friendly universe, immaturity, mortal personality distortions, hate, bigotry, discrimination, war, poverty, unfairness, and injustice??!! You don’t believe there is relief from the suffering and tge very human sources of suffering in heaven? How peculiar! How unfortunate.” That was in response to your claim: “I don’t think we are actually free from suffering until after the last rest of time when we awake on Paradise itself.”
And did you read the quote accompanying my statement? Did you understand the quote? Here it is again:
27:1.5 The last rest of time has been enjoyed; the last transition sleep has been experienced; now you awake to life everlasting on the shores of the eternal abode. “And there shall be no more sleep. The presence of God and his Son are before you, and you are eternally his servants; you have seen his face, and his name is your spirit. There shall be no night there; and they need no light of the sun, for the Great Source and Center gives them light; they shall live forever and ever. And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; there shall be no more death, neither sorrow nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain, for the former things have passed away.”
Sorrow, crying, pain have all passed away upon arrival to the shores of the eternal abode. Of course there is suffering all the way to Paradise if even the members of the Trinity suffer? Why would humans be exempt from it? Your confusion comes from equating suffering with sin. It is possible to suffer without ever sinning. It’s called love. What father doesn’t suffer when his child suffers? What human being doesn’t suffer when a family member suffers. We are all in one family, God’s family and he is the Father. Is the experience of suffering modified as we ascend? Undoubtedly. Willingly bearing the burden of others is a high calling.
We are measured by our motives in our Circle Progress and Ascendency…not by our wisdom and strategies and tactics.
We’re measured by our nearness to God, divinity attunement, and progress is made by making decisions to do God’s will. And by diminishing wisdom you contradicted a previous post of yours which claimed wisdom is critical to the goal. You said: “The UB teaches that perfection of motive and intention by experiential wisdom is the quest.” Which one is it?
What is measured by motive is morality. Jesus explained that the morality of any act is determined by the individual’s motive.(140:10.5) But morality is subspiritual, which is why Jesus was not all that concerned about morals and ethics. He knew they are changeable with the culture. Instead, Jesus stressed it is more important to put all one’s effort into spiritual fellowship with God. God comes first. And when God is put first, loving service is a natural outflow, meaning unconscious in its goodness. There is no need to ponder motive here.
170:3.9 . . . Jesus was never concerned with morals or ethics as such. He was wholly concerned with that inward and spiritual fellowship with God the Father which so certainly and directly manifests itself as outward and loving service for man. . .
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