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So the conscious mind awareness is like a hub of a wheel for us, with the other kinds of conscious like the spokes of the wheel.
I don’t see consciousness as the spokes of a wheel, but I do visualize concentric circles of consciousness.
urantia4me wrote:Could someone explain how we can borrow someone else’s mind, as the Urantia Book suggests we borrow the mind of Jesus.The mind of Jesus is in your soul. The Spirit of Truth is the personification of Jesus, which includes his mind, spirit and personality. All you need to do is develop some soul-consciousness, then discover his presence there. Bingo! you have full access to his mind, according to your capacity to recognize it.100:2.3 (1095.7) Religion can progress to that level of experience whereon it becomes an enlightened and wise technique of spiritual reaction to the universe. Such a glorified religion can function on three levels of human personality: the intellectual, the morontial, and the spiritual; upon the mind, in the evolving soul, and with the indwelling spirit.
100:4.3 (1097.7) But the great problem of religious living consists in the task of unifying the soul powers of the personality by the dominance of love. Health, mental efficiency, and happiness arise from the unification of physical systems, mind systems, and spirit systems. Of health and sanity man understands much, but of happiness he has truly realized very little. The highest happiness is indissolubly linked with spiritual progress. Spiritual growth yields lasting joy, peace which passes all understanding.
Do you think this might mean that soul has volition through the single, shared personality of the mortal mind?
Well, the first quote describes all the parts of the self excluding the body: 1.) personality; 2.) mind; 3.) soul; 4.) spirit. Personality is the only part of the self that has the power of choice, but choice cannot be expressed without mind because mind is required to recognize choices. The soul is also minded. There are choices that come to consciousness within the lower material mind and there are choices that come to consciousness in the upper soul mind. The personality gets to pick because the personality has the benefit of two minds. When the personality chooses the upper soul mind options, and acts on them, the soul grows.
So yes, there’s one personality and two minds who share it, but the power of volition belongs solely to the personality. That’s how the personality eventually evolves its dominance from a natural identification with the lower mind to a survivable identification with the upper mind, the soul.
The soul powers of the personality, referred to in the second quote are the same as personality credits. It’s spiritual power, the supermaterial power of the Holy Spirit (supermind of the soul), not volition. Soul powers are the gifts of faith, grace, insight, sonship, righteousness and others. These gifts are of the soul, part of soul intelligence (supermind, Holy Spirit), and are not understood by the human material mind. They are simply felt.
48:7.6 4. Few mortals ever dare to draw anything like the sum of personality credits established by the combined ministries of nature and grace. The majority of impoverished souls are truly rich, but they refuse to believe it.
111:6.8 It is only natural that mortal man should be harassed by feelings of insecurity as he views himself inextricably bound to nature while he possesses spiritual powers wholly transcendent to all things temporal and finite. Only religious confidence — living faith — can sustain man amid such difficult and perplexing problems.
Hello – sorry that I was away from my computer for a while – I read the replies but not much free time to reply. For Bradly and Bonita, continue to reply as you normally do – eventually I will get up to speed, for I do plan to read more of the Urantia Book and set aside my other books for a while. HOWEVER, anytime you two can think of useful, familiar analogies, please use them; don’t worry Bonita – those are not as difficult as creating parables
Perhaps some things can be compared with aspects of computer technology, such as the software, hardware, and the internet. Or maybe the structure of well-known organizations/businesses could provide useful analogies. Or maybe compare things in TUB with things in nature. You know, the thought crossed my mind years ago that perhaps the higher beings want to “breed out” our animal traits using reincarnation; what surprised me is that while TUB dismisses reincarnation, TUB DOES indicate that we humans are intended to rid ourselves of our animal traits. By the way, as I read Bonita’s comments yesterday about the personality and the lower mind and upper mind, I was also thinking of Freud’s idea of the Id, Ego, and Super Ego.Normally cross-referencing multiple sources helps me learn faster, but some of you faithful Urantians were right – cross-referencing THIS book with others is hindering me from learning important concepts in this book. There’s SO MUCH unique information, as well as unique perspectives on a wide range of topics! So if I am away from this forum at times, don’t assume that I lost interest – I may simply be reading the Urantia Book at night before bedtime instead of getting on my computer. Speaking of sleep, I will go for now; it’s almost 1:30 am my time.
TUB DOES indicate that we humans are intended to rid ourselves of our animal traits.
I don’t think it’s possible to get rid of animal traits until we’re no longer animals. What TUB recommends is that we learn to master our animal traits and grow new divine traits . . . it’s a soul thing.
143:2.8 “If, then, my children, you are born of the spirit, you are forever delivered from the self-conscious bondage of a life of self-denial and watchcare over the desires of the flesh, and you are translated into the joyous kingdom of the spirit, whence you spontaneously show forth the fruits of the spirit in your daily lives; and the fruits of the spirit are the essence of the highest type of enjoyable and ennobling self-control, even the heights of terrestrial mortal attainment–true self-mastery.”
By the way, as I read Bonita’s comments yesterday about the personality and the lower mind and upper mind, I was also thinking of Freud’s idea of the Id, Ego, and Super Ego.
There are interesting analogies there, but the superego has nothing to do with the superconscious or the soul. Freud’s superego is the conscience. The conscience exists in the middle level of consciousness, the adjutant material mind. The conscience is humanly derived. The superconscious is spirit derived. Both the superego and the ego identify with the adjutant material mind. It’s the alter-ego which identifies with the soul. That’s a difficult concept to wrap your mind around because the term alter ego has some distorted psychological connotations which do not apply to this situation. The alter ego is who the ego is striving to become, and in a religious person, that would be Godlike in nature.
Conscience is defined as “the moral and ethical content of the mores of any current stage of existence” . . . it represents the “humanly conceived ideal of reaction in any given set of circumstances” and manifests as the “criticism of oneself by one’s own value-habits, personal ideals.”
Quotes regarding the conscience:
92:2.6 Religion has at one time or another sanctioned all sorts of contrary and inconsistent behavior, has at some time approved of practically all that is now regarded as immoral or sinful. Conscience, untaught by experience and unaided by reason, never has been, and never can be, a safe and unerring guide to human conduct. Conscience is not a divine voice speaking to the human soul. It is merely the sum total of the moral and ethical content of the mores of any current stage of existence; it simply represents the humanly conceived ideal of reaction in any given set of circumstances.
100:1.5 Growth is also predicated on the discovery of selfhood accompanied by self-criticism — conscience, for conscience is really the criticism of oneself by one’s own value-habits, personal ideals.
110:5.1 Do not confuse and confound the mission and influence of the Adjuster with what is commonly called conscience; they are not directly related. Conscience is a human and purely psychic reaction. It is not to be despised, but it is hardly the voice of God to the soul, which indeed the Adjuster’s would be if such a voice could be heard. Conscience, rightly, admonishes you to do right; but the Adjuster, in addition, endeavors to tell you what truly is right; that is, when and as you are able to perceive the Monitor’s leading.
Hello Bonita and others – I am still around but have been busier than normal lately, so no recent comments on the Forum until now. On Saturday night, I was reading about some of the helpful study aids that are on the main Urantia book website. Of course, because of my particular interests, I read about how the Forum began with William Sadler’s core group and the “contacted person” that puzzled Sadler Sr. for several years before one of the entities who communicated through the “sleeping person” said something like, “If you knew who you were talking to, you would ask more serious questions for the advancement of humanity”! The complete story is fascinating! One or more of the investigators who eventually formed the Forum knew this was nothing like the inferior forms of psychic-related phenomenon; to some of the researchers, it was supernatural/superhuman, while some others remained skeptical for quite a while as the Urantia papers were gradually produced. Just as I silently read that part of the story, my wife (who was asleep the whole time I read and was completely unaware of what I was reading) suddenly started giggling/laughing in her sleep, which I had never witnessed her do before that night! At first I wasn’t sure if she was laughing or crying. I kept asking if she was OK, but then she resumed her normally quiet sleeping.
What surprised me was what she told me the next day regarding the reason she was giggling. It was due to her dreaming about a “little man who she knew was doing supernatural things, while others who observed the little man thought he was only doing magic tricks!” Keep in mind that my wife has NOT read or shown any interest in the Urantia book, until I told her what I was reading at the very moment she began giggling – what an odd coincidence! I apologize for this NOT being related to reincarnation other than to say that my wife very much still believes in reincarnation, while I am continuing to question my prior beliefs (in light of the Urantia book), especially now after such an odd experience. I do NOT claim any special abilities; I only claim to have had numerous “coincidentally odd experiences” throughout my life that make me pay more attention to things in my life and things I read.
By the way, there are several other helpful resources on the website, including articles from astronomer Nigel Nunn, one of which I read – the one about the structure of the universe(s) described in the Urantia book possibly being previously unknown to astronomers but quite logical! I especially appreciated the diagrams that Nigel included with his article. I also began reading the simplified article that Sadler Jr. wrote a few years before he died to help people (like me) to better understand the introduction to the Urantia book, most of which I had read about a year or so ago but found it a bit challenging, though definitely logical in its presentation! Bye for now.
All of us, no matter how logical or objective or open minded or curious, have personal biases and prejudices and preconceptions. The UB says that is because of the inherent function of mind. Mind itself requires “knowing” and “understanding” – both. We are hard wired with curiosity and this imbedded need to know. In fact, according to the UB, mind will invent “facts” to link together what is known by what is presumed or what is concluded.
That which is unknown does not prevent the invention of facts and or beliefs by mind to complete all cause and effect observations and suppositions into complete and integrated concepts and constructs of reality. It is the very basis of learning and progressing and discovery and discernment and determines our perspective of reality and our philosophy for living. I had never heard such a thing before and had never considered the very real need to know leads to the invention of belief which may or may not coincide with or be related to reality and fact.
Indeed, reality and fact are evidently secondary to the mind’s need and dependence upon the invention of substitute realities when facts are not known or ascertainable to the mind. This fact is related to the fact and truth that soul may be born and truth discerned and faith experience in ways that deliver personal growth in the Spirit and the very real fruits of the Spirit can be experienced by those who know few or no facts and who’s reality concepts are pure fiction and personal beliefs are all wrong!! Still does the Spirit spiritize and spiritualize the mind and mortal being and soul. If accurate knowledge and factual belief was required for soul survival and personal salvation, we would all be doomed to oblivion!
Now what I find interesting about this reality is that those who discover the UB and the fascinating story of creation and reality are so reluctant to lay aside their personal prejudices, bias, and preconceptions which are so primitive and fear based and superstitious when the UB offers new portrayals of stale beliefs that offer such tremendous liberation and hope!!
Why in the world would anyone cling to reincarnation, the endless repetition of mortal life and suffering on one single material world, rotating between bugs and animals and people with disoriented memories or none of all these prior lives to finally achieve a point of progress when one just melds into the greater reality???? Really?? That instead of an endless adventure of learning and growing and perfecting with full cognition and memory of the entire journey, always gaining wisdom and knowledge and skill and always growing ever closer to the Spirit within until we finally fuse into a metamorphic state of nirvana like experience and expression over 570 phases of less and less materialism and more and greater spiritization…until we become a Mighty Messenger of God to all the universes of time and ultimately a Finaliter to serve and create for eternity in the grand adventures to come, always aware of being ME in this never ending journey and adventure of joy!!
Who might truly prefer the primitive superstition and falsehood of human reincarnation when they discover the true source and the reality of that myth within the UB?? How bias and prejudiced must one be to prefer reincarnation to the adventure of reality presented to us and which we share here together??? The truth is so much more glorious and wonderful!!!
To each their own. Please refer to the beginning of this post for the Good News!! False beliefs cannot prevent the reality adventure to come!! Enjoy the journey…and believe whatever you will….for according to the UB our beliefs do not define nor determine reality itself! Thank God for that!!
I’ve not read a bunch of reincarnation stuff, but Bradly you’re beating-up a strawman just like the U-book authors do.
If I had to characterize the “new age” version of reincarnation I’d say:
It’s in the first couple of mansion worlds and its for folks who are not ready to move on and everybody agrees they need to learn a few more lessons (and its what they want) so they choose their pre-birth agreements (who they wanna be and what they wanna learn) and each round is a step up the ladder. You’re always a human but sometimes you’re rich and sometimes you’re poor but it is EVOLUTIONARY.
So its not ‘endless’ and its not random and does not just “happen to” you. The Urantia Book is very up-front about being ‘conservative’ and not wanting folks to have distorted beliefs. There are many quotes in the book about how Urantia is your “first life” so don’t be surprised if it turns out they were omitting some stuff for our own good.
-paul in portland
Paul,
Thanks for your personal definition of reincarnation. That makes about 1000+1 versions. Yours is always progressive and always human. Good to know….but hardly definitive or common among adherents, historically or currently.
I fear you missed my point(s). I have already complimented the belief in personal development and progress beyond material death as far superior to the perfection by death fiction of Christianity. My question is why someone might persist in this concept of reincarnation and belief once the UB has been discovered.
The issue raised is about prejudice and the refusal to embrace that which is far more wonderful and spectacular and glorious than the preconceptions and beliefs one so tightly grips despite its obvious inferiorities. Reincarnation is but one of many superstitions and inferior beliefs students of the Revelation bring with them to discovery of the Papers.
My post was also about the functionality and inherencies of reality constructs, even fictitious ones by mortal mind. And it was about how faith and religious experience grow soul despite all ignorance and false beliefs and fictitious metaphysics. Both topics I have found unique to the Revelation. That’s 3 topics I hoped we might consider.
My last post is not really about reincarnation at all. But you might really wish to study it prior to defining it for others. I certainly have studied it myself. Oddly, I have found many who claim to believe in reincarnation also know very little about it too. Like many who believe the Bible but seem so ignorant of its contents.
Which makes such beliefs and prejudices even more peculiar for blind loyalty I think. The UB teaches that ignorance and prejudice are the greatest obstacles to personal growth.
Just sayin’…
I believe the strawman here is of your own creation at the expense of the actual topics I presented to the discussion. Your low opinion of the authors of the Papers is most unfortunate, if important and interesting regarding understanding your own opinions here. Oh well….we believe what we believe.
And please remember that we are gathered here as students of the Revelation to study the Papers or other topics as they relate to the UB.
Again, the good news is that our beliefs do not define reality or determine our destiny. We should all be glad to learn this.
Bradly
47:3.7 [Part II]On mansion world number one (or another in case of advanced status) you will resume your intellectual training and spiritual development at the exact level whereon they were interrupted by death. Between the time of planetary death or translation and resurrection on the mansion world, mortal man gains absolutely nothing aside from experiencing the fact of survival. You begin over there right where you leave off down here.All, is not the above excerpt adequate to convince UB readers the plan is for us mortals to move up? For me the UB authors are succinct in their words and concepts re reincarnation. There is nothing gained during the death sleep and it is clear the next stop is the resurrection hall. Progress is a big factor in the Plan for mortals, planets, systems, yes the entire super universe. We move onward for correction, learning, reorientation etc, not lingering in a former place. Improvement is a divine concept, but Divinity chooses how its activated.Even more convincing to me is Jesus’ resurrection which he made sure plenty of people witnessed as a morontia event. He did not resurrect from the dead as something else physical, but as himself in a different non-physical form. I often wondered why he chose to linger on earth after he died, but one reason I took from it was to reassure the unbeliever that there is a life after death but that life is not a physical life, rather a morontia life. Technically this new life can’t be called reincarnation because the word incarnate means to take on a physical body. The morontia body is something new to the world which was first introduced in the last epochal revelation. Now with the fifth epochal revelation we are given much more information about it. One has to presume it’s because we’re ready to hear it. Of course the idea causes a little confusion, but if reflected upon, turns out to be totally logical.
Hi,
There are many quotes in the book about how Urantia is your “first life” so don’t be surprised if it turns out they were omitting some stuff for our own good.
paulinpoftland, I’m an “ontheside” participant and got bothered when a reader insinuate what UB do not said as a vicious doubt. Nothing against investigate a doubt in an honest attitude.
Please paul if you still whant to exercise such sophisms, propaganda Bradly well respond to you. Spare me those posts.
… don’t be surprised if … pauldeportland
André
I’ve not read a bunch of reincarnation stuff, but Bradly you’re beating-up a strawman just like the U-book authors do. If I had to characterize the “new age” version of reincarnation I’d say: It’s in the first couple of mansion worlds and its for folks who are not ready to move on and everybody agrees they need to learn a few more lessons (and its what they want) so they choose their pre-birth agreements (who they wanna be and what they wanna learn) and each round is a step up the ladder. You’re always a human but sometimes you’re rich and sometimes you’re poor but it is EVOLUTIONARY. So its not ‘endless’ and its not random and does not just “happen to” you. The Urantia Book is very up-front about being ‘conservative’ and not wanting folks to have distorted beliefs. There are many quotes in the book about how Urantia is your “first life” so don’t be surprised if it turns out they were omitting some stuff for our own good. -paul in portland
First…thank you Andre for your confidence in the authors of the Revelation and their words of fact and truth gifted to us and which we share and study here together in discovery and wonder.
Paul…I have no interest in defending the UB or in convincing anyone of the accuracy of its authors and their claims related to the Papers. But it is clear by your claims and contradictions above that you do not share Andre’s and my own confidence in the factuality and truth presented therein. I have no idea what you mean by “conservative” or “distorted beliefs” but I do know that you are claiming both pre-existence and pre-determination which do directly contradict the teachings of the UB.
I would advise you actually study reincarnation prior to such presumptions and declarations, for I know of no karma based reincarnation that allows or provides for self selection of next incarnations. That rather moots the point of the immaturity and ignorance and lack of wisdom and lack of progress and lack of enlightenment which requires yet another incarnation. You presume one would choose more wisely upon death than during life….not an element of reincarnation in any form I’ve studied. New age indeed. Reincarnation is not about having your cake and eating it too! While karma can be and should be divorced from reincarnation, reincarnation cannot be divorced from karma. Karma determines next lives in reincarnation….not the fool who is required to return due to their failure to spiritually progress adequately. Hahahaha. That’s putting the inmates in charge of the asylum!!! Or the monkeys in charge of the zoo!! A most hilarious concept. Thanks for the picture.
I am confused by your inconsistency in the post above however. How can one believe that the Urantia life is the first life and also believe in reincarnation on Urantia? Where’s the second life? And the third, etc.? If it is on the Mansion Worlds then that is not reincarnation at all but is the beginning of the Morontial Adventure of near endless progressions whereby we become more and more spirit and less and less physical in form while we become spritized and spiritualized beings. This is the fact and reality that gave birth to the reincarnation fable and myth. The reality is much more compelling and inspiring than the myth. While karma, the repercussions of free will choice, is completely accurate in that regard…the reaping of what is sown….still does the Revelation offer a twist to karma which is also far more compelling and inspiring than the form of karma associated with reincarnation.
In truth and fact, mortals are not punished after death for their errors and immaturities and impatience and materialism. They progress upward into a new form that releases us from materialism and into an environment where reality is more readily perceived and we are provided specific education that is personalized to help us progress and grow without the same obstacles and impediments as the original material life. We do not repeat and we are not progressed or regressed based on prior results….we begin the Morontia Adventures right where we left off here and are then guided forward with patience and kindness and personal attention and with the experience of death and survival ….a new form of continuity of experience with so many examples around us of celestial helpers and teachers and guides. And with mota.
So what of reaping what we sow? Where and how is karma experienced? Here. Now. In the mortal life. Karma has little to do with the actual choices we make but everything to do with the motives of our choices. Sin contains the seed of its own destruction. Evil/error contains the seed of its own suffering. There are repercussions to self centered choosing just as there are rewards for other than self choosing. The fruits of the spirit arrive upon our choices which are based on the motive of love and service. The bitter fruit of self importance causes many forms of pain and unhappiness and fear. Our motive in choosing determines which fruit comes forth on the individual branch. But, we are taught, that which causes such suffering in our material life does not survive our death.
We do not arrive in the Mansion worlds burdened by the suffering, pain, guilt, fears, unhappiness and other repercussions of sin and evil. We begin where we ended material life but not overwhelmed and overburdened by the karma demands required by those who believe in reincarnation. Death is no escape to karma with reincarnation and the next life’s station and perils are determined by one’s former results and the justice required of our actions…and not just our motives. Karma must be cleansed. According to the UB, we experience such a karma cleanse by death. We are not perfected by death. But we are not punished in death either. Both myths are wrong about this according to the Revelation.
The UB reality we are taught is that wisdom comes slowly. We are not reincarnated over and over again to pursue wisdom, wisdom comes with adequate experience in time…not in the same place. But reincarnation teaches that enlightenment and wisdom are the quest. The UB teaches that perfection of motive and intention by experiential wisdom is the quest. Enlightenment is a natural result of the process of perfecting motivation. What’s so fascinating to me is how much progress is possible in this brief life to adjusting and spiritualizing our motive in living!! We may be ignorant and we may have false beliefs and we may not be too bright and we may be rich or poor or from good family or none….but the Spirit within can lead us to love others and to experience and express truth, beauty, and goodness….in this life and no matter all obstacles and all suffering, we can reap the fruits of the Spirit and be happy and joyous and confident and courageous, and fearless. Amazing. Truly amazing.
Sorry….but compared to reality….reincarnation is silly and illogical. Not compared to reality, reincarnation is a myth which does support a progressive survival and personal experience that is more true than becoming perfected merely by death….a myth superior to another myth. But that is all.
André,
It seems there are truth seekers and also evidence seekers. Truth seekers should ask a simple question, ‘What is true?’ for any life challenge or to question any philosophy or conclusion. Genuine truth seekers cannot possibly replace the Designer of life, the Creator of all reality. We mortals are relegated to opinions and not final rulings. But, it seems there are those who try to make the Designer’s provisions more in line to what they believe. Perhaps they are looking for evidence to support a posit.
Truth seeking, evidence seekers, are looking for proof, perhaps for supporting a posit, or for fact supporting the idea there is more to learn!
Regardless, we’d all be wise to be open to possibilities, as we are not omniscient. We’d be wise to think and remain open to what really is true!
Only God is omniscient; therefore we non-omniscient ones ought to be reverent about possibilities. The Urantia Book is not a final work, but is an upgrade source for expanding knowledge and understanding.This book points us to expanding cosmic consciousness (see the Foreword, second paragraph). We mortals cannot remake God into our sometimes stubbornly impressed concepts. The UB is trustworthy for uplifting souls to new understanding and dignity.
You are right to call out sophisms on this forum.
. . . but I do know that you are claiming both pre-existence and pre-determination which do directly contradict the teachings of the UB.
Hello paul in portland! Unlike Bradly, I didn’t come to this conclusion after reading what you posted. Just curious to know if it’s true or not. Anyway, I agree with you about the revelators omitting stuff that might come as a surprise to us later. They certainly did warn about over-revelation.
48:6.21 But sometimes error is so great that its rectification by revelation would be fatal to those slowly emerging truths which are essential to its experiential overthrow.
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