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Brooklyn_born wrote: My question is, was this arrangement made as a consequence of Manotia’s refusal, or to win over Manotia to the side of the rebellion?I think I answered this question at least three times.Brooklyn_born wrote: My question is, was this arrangement made as a consequence of Manotia’s refusal, or to win over Manotia to the side of the rebellion?I think I answered this question at least three times.I know, I was looking for other participants to share their perspective. Thanks.
BB
BB – I can’t answer the question you pose, but it should be crystal clear that there are no swords, guns, weapons of mass destruction, bodily injuries, etc. remotely possible as options to consider. This “war” is of will and minds and faith and loyalty….and betrayal. Nothing is more deadly to a celestial, any celestial, than that of betrayal and disloyalty. The answer to your question, then, lies within the destructive power and nature of disloyalty itself I think. I also think Bonita has said this same thing. So what do you think the elements and instruments and consequences of this “war” were? There were no deaths or causalties of war as we mortals know of this but it was and is obviously a most profound moment of decision and there is “destruction”….but not of bodies or properties. The terminology is used I think as a way to relate to our limited and material life/world.
BB – I can’t answer the question you pose, but it should be crystal clear that there are no swords, guns, weapons of mass destruction, bodily injuries, etc. remotely possible as options to consider.
I agree. the Revelator reveals that the barbarities of war on the material plane are not found in the “war in heaven.”
This “war” is of will and minds and faith and loyalty….and betrayal.
I agree. What I am asking myself is what happens when one rebuffs rebels’ offer to join the secession movement, as was the case with Manotia. While there are no barbarities characteristic of physical war, what about in the celestial sense? What kind of “barbarities” are there? TUB reveals little details save a few hint words, e.g., upheavals, harmed.
Nothing is more deadly to a celestial, any celestial, than that of betrayal and disloyalty. The answer to your question, then, lies within the destructive power and nature of loyalty itself I think.
Indeed but the outcome is a result of personal choice. I am interested in the ramification behind resisting the temptation to join the rebellion. The particular passage I posted leaves somewhat to be desired, IMO. When I encounter passages like that it raises questions for me. This is my question: (1) was this arrangement made as a consequence or Manotia’s refusal, or to win over Manotia to the side of the rebellion?
I also think Bonita has said this same thing. So what do you think the elements and instruments and consequences of this “war” were?
I do not know. that is why I posted this thread, to stimulate thought or perhaps someone could reveal something I overlooked in TUB. I do not agree with Bonita’s answer as it does not line up with the way the passage is written, IMO.
There were no deaths or causalties of war as we mortals know of this but it was and is obviously a most profound moment of decision
Right, and I appreciate the way you qualified your response… “as we mortals know of.” I am curious to get a glimpse into the kind of causalities sustained.
and there is “destruction”….but not of bodies or properties. The terminology is used I think as a way to relate to our limited and material life/world.
And do we know this with certainty? I understand that the lower is the mansion the more it approximates with what we find in our material reality.
Thanks for participating, Bradly. I appreciate your input and Bonita’s.
BB
Right, and I appreciate the way you qualified your response… “as we mortals know of.” I am curious to get a glimpse into the kind of causalities sustained. and there is “destruction”….but not of bodies or properties. The terminology is used I think as a way to relate to our limited and material life/world. And do we know this with certainty? I understand that the lower is the mansion the more it approximates with what we find in our material reality.
I agree. What I am asking myself is what happens when one rebuffs rebels’ offer to join the secession movement, as was the case with Manotia. While there are no barbarities characteristic of physical war, what about in the celestial sense? What kind of “barbarities” are there? TUB reveals little details save a few hint words, e.g., upheavals, harmed.
Bradly said: “Nothing is more deadly to a celestial, any celestial, than that of betrayal and disloyalty. The answer to your question, then, lies within the destructive power and nature of disloyalty itself I think.
BB replied: “Indeed but the outcome is a result of personal choice. I am interested in the ramification behind resisting the temptation to join the rebellion. The particular passage I posted leaves somewhat to be desired, IMO. When I encounter passages like that it raises questions for me. This is my question: (1) was this arrangement made as a consequence or Manotia’s refusal, or to win over Manotia to the side of the rebellion?”
Me here: I think there is a key phrase that gives us a clue: (606.2) 53:5.6 “There was war in heaven; Michael’s commander and his angels fought against the dragon (Lucifer, Satan, and the apostate princes); and the dragon and his rebellious angels fought but prevailed not.” This “war in heaven” was not a physical battle as such a conflict might be conceived on Urantia. In the early days of the struggle Lucifer held forth continuously in the planetary amphitheater. Gabriel conducted an unceasing exposure of the rebel sophistries from his headquarters taken up near at hand. The various personalities present on the sphere who were in doubt as to their attitude would journey back and forth between these discussions until they arrived at a final decision.
I would presume from this quote that there were no hostages, internments, bodily injuries, nor destruction of worlds or buildings or beings of any kind….nor can I find any text that would allow for even the possibility of such “physical” outcomes or risks. The “war” was a battle for minds and free will. You also provided a quote that certifies that no mind, divine or celestial, can interfere with the free will choice of any other mind. So I think, by that text, we can conclude that this was not an internal war between any individual’s mind and Lucifer’s or any others’ “invasion” of mind. It is simply, as presented, that internal confusion and paradox – “war” within – that all minds were required to experience….a choice forced on them by the Manifesto and the confusion of loyalties and obedience that resulted by that choice.
(606.5) 53:6.2 At the outbreak of rebellion on Jerusem the head of the seraphic hosts joined the Lucifer cause. This no doubt explains why such a large number of the fourth order, the system administrator seraphim, went astray. The seraphic leader was spiritually blinded by the brilliant personality of Lucifer; his charming ways fascinated the lower orders of celestial beings. They simply could not comprehend that it was possible for such a dazzling personality to go wrong.
I presume this was a most difficult choice in its way….one without precedent or protocol for all affected beings, but perhaps especially so for those who were second or third in command and had always been faithful and loyal to their leadership….which was now in total disruption….and being misled by the one most corrupted – Lucifer himself. What angel would dare to challenge those they had forever followed? Remember that the response was very slow….and then deliberate but not reactionary. There was no demonstration of force or coercion by the legitimate power structure….this patience allowed this “war” within and between minds to carry on until all minds had sufficient time to make a choice….some of whom decided quickly and others not….but every confused mind was given time to work through the process individually.
The arguments presented – “sophistries” as described – are clever presentations of truths within or wrapped with a lie and also lies within or wrapped by truths. Very subtle subversities of persuasion. I look forward to the recordings of this oratory and this example of how the best lies can contain so much truth. As to the meaning of “…and the powerful rebels sought my destruction by means of the liaison forces they had arranged. There was a tremendous upheaval on Jerusem, but not a single loyal seraphim was harmed.” ….I presume that multiple personalities were designated for “peer” persuasion…ambushed by those persuaded by disloyalty. And the end phrase is quite specific…..no loyal beings were “harmed”. And I think further that those disloyal ones were harmed by their own “hand” by the free will choices each made personally within their own mind. And additional text reveals how many of those have since requested and received forgiveness for the error of their choice upon further consideration, evidence, and outcomes.
I know I have not and cannot answer this query in any completeness BB, but I always appreciate your thoughtful reflections and questions on the UB. Thanks for the topic and the discussion.
Here’s a good quote to explain how the rebels may have used their powers to confuse people. They were capable of perverting and poisoning the truth, deliberately and deceitfully, in order to foster disloyalty to Michael. Personally, I can’t imagine anything more horrible.
50:4.12 It was one of the most profoundly shocking episodes of this rebellion for me to learn of the callous perfidy of one of my own order of sonship, Caligastia, who, in deliberation and with malice aforethought, systematically perverted the instruction and poisoned the teaching provided in all the Urantia planetary schools in operation at that time. The wreck of these schools was speedy and complete.
This war still wages in its way….the loss of celestial leadership and divine truth upon so many worlds still lingers in its effects. But the glory to me is the response-ability of love and patience and mercy ministry to create inevitabilities and certainties of all outcomes in God’s universe. Confusions and doubts do not determine outcomes but faithfulness and love DO SO guarantee all potentials to be realized….eventually. As to the mortal blessings inherent in this war in heaven there is this:
The Rewards of Isolation
(578.6) 50:7.1 On first thought it might appear that Urantia and its associated isolated worlds are most unfortunate in being deprived of the beneficent presence and influence of such superhuman personalities as a Planetary Prince and a Material Son and Daughter. But isolation of these spheres affords their races a unique opportunity for the exercise of faith and for the development of a peculiar quality of confidence in cosmic reliability which is not dependent on sight or any other material consideration. It may turn out, eventually, that mortal creatures hailing from the worlds quarantined in consequence of rebellion are extremely fortunate. We have discovered that such ascenders are very early intrusted with numerous special assignments to cosmic undertakings where unquestioned faith and sublime confidence are essential to achievement.
(579.1) 50:7.2 On Jerusem the ascenders from these isolated worlds occupy a residential sector by themselves and are known as the agondonters, meaning evolutionary will creatures who can believe without seeing, persevere when isolated, and triumph over insuperable difficulties even when alone. This functional grouping of the agondonters persists throughout the ascension of the local universe and the traversal of the superuniverse; it disappears during the sojourn in Havona but promptly reappears upon the attainment of Paradise and definitely persists in the Corps of the Mortal Finality. Tabamantia is an agondonter of finaliter status, having survived from one of the quarantined spheres involved in the first rebellion ever to take place in the universes of time and space.
(579.2) 50:7.3 All through the Paradise career, reward follows effort as the result of causes. Such rewards set off the individual from the average, provide a differential of creature experience, and contribute to the versatility of ultimate performances in the collective body of the finaliters.
This collective body includes seraphim, midwayers, Material Sons and Daughters, and many forms of celestials in addition to mortal ascenders. Imagine the potential in such rebellion and isolation tested minds as Nebadon has produced due to the treachery or perfidy and sophistries of Lucifer and his underlings. The costs of all error are far less than the potential for gain based on the response chosen to all error IMO. We are here to learn response-ability skills and experience. Manotia’s response is a thrilling tale of triumph for us to embrace….as was Van’s and Amadon’s – heroes of our world and who also faced the same situation at the planetary level….and, perhaps, where treachery might actually be or include physical dangers and harms suffered by the rebel’s treachery and agents and agenda. Fascinating.
Here’s a good quote to explain how the rebels may have used their powers to confuse people. They were capable of perverting and poisoning the truth, deliberately and deceitfully, in order to foster disloyalty to Michael. Personally, I can’t imagine anything more horrible.
50:4.12 It was one of the most profoundly shocking episodes of this rebellion for me to learn of the callous perfidy of one of my own order of sonship, Caligastia, who, in deliberation and with malice aforethought, systematically perverted the instruction and poisoned the teaching provided in all the Urantia planetary schools in operation at that time. The wreck of these schools was speedy and complete.
thanks for that reference. I am now going to let all that you and Bradly have shared sink in. I am rethinking my initial thought going into this topic.
BB
Right, and I appreciate the way you qualified your response… “as we mortals know of.” I am curious to get a glimpse into the kind of causalities sustained. and there is “destruction”….but not of bodies or properties. The terminology is used I think as a way to relate to our limited and material life/world. And do we know this with certainty? I understand that the lower is the mansion the more it approximates with what we find in our material reality.
I agree. What I am asking myself is what happens when one rebuffs rebels’ offer to join the secession movement, as was the case with Manotia. While there are no barbarities characteristic of physical war, what about in the celestial sense? What kind of “barbarities” are there? TUB reveals little details save a few hint words, e.g., upheavals, harmed. Bradly said: “Nothing is more deadly to a celestial, any celestial, than that of betrayal and disloyalty. The answer to your question, then, lies within the destructive power and nature of disloyalty itself I think. BB replied: “Indeed but the outcome is a result of personal choice. I am interested in the ramification behind resisting the temptation to join the rebellion. The particular passage I posted leaves somewhat to be desired, IMO. When I encounter passages like that it raises questions for me. This is my question: (1) was this arrangement made as a consequence or Manotia’s refusal, or to win over Manotia to the side of the rebellion?” Me here: I think there is a key phrase that gives us a clue: (606.2) 53:5.6 “There was war in heaven; Michael’s commander and his angels fought against the dragon (Lucifer, Satan, and the apostate princes); and the dragon and his rebellious angels fought but prevailed not.” This “war in heaven” was not a physical battle as such a conflict might be conceived on Urantia. In the early days of the struggle Lucifer held forth continuously in the planetary amphitheater. Gabriel conducted an unceasing exposure of the rebel sophistries from his headquarters taken up near at hand. The various personalities present on the sphere who were in doubt as to their attitude would journey back and forth between these discussions until they arrived at a final decision. I would presume from this quote that there were no hostages, internments, bodily injuries, nor destruction of worlds or buildings or beings of any kind….nor can I find any text that would allow for even the possibility of such “physical” outcomes or risks. The “war” was a battle for minds and free will. You also provided a quote that certifies that no mind, divine or celestial, can interfere with the free will choice of any other mind. So I think, by that text, we can conclude that this was not an internal war between any individual’s mind and Lucifer’s or any others’ “invasion” of mind. It is simply, as presented, that internal confusion and paradox – “war” within – that all minds were required to experience….a choice forced on them by the Manifesto and the confusion of loyalties and obedience that resulted by that choice. (606.5) 53:6.2 At the outbreak of rebellion on Jerusem the head of the seraphic hosts joined the Lucifer cause. This no doubt explains why such a large number of the fourth order, the system administrator seraphim, went astray. The seraphic leader was spiritually blinded by the brilliant personality of Lucifer; his charming ways fascinated the lower orders of celestial beings. They simply could not comprehend that it was possible for such a dazzling personality to go wrong. I presume this was a most difficult choice in its way….one without precedent or protocol for all affected beings, but perhaps especially so for those who were second or third in command and had always been faithful and loyal to their leadership….which was now in total disruption….and being misled by the one most corrupted – Lucifer himself. What angel would dare to challenge those they had forever followed? Remember that the response was very slow….and then deliberate but not reactionary. There was no demonstration of force or coercion by the legitimate power structure….this patience allowed this “war” within and between minds to carry on until all minds had sufficient time to make a choice….some of whom decided quickly and others not….but every confused mind was given time to work through the process individually. The arguments presented – “sophistries” as described – are clever presentations of truths within or wrapped with a lie and also lies within or wrapped by truths. Very subtle subversities of persuasion. I look forward to the recordings of this oratory and this example of how the best lies can contain so much truth. As to the meaning of “…and the powerful rebels sought my destruction by means of the liaison forces they had arranged. There was a tremendous upheaval on Jerusem, but not a single loyal seraphim was harmed.” ….I presume that multiple personalities were designated for “peer” persuasion…ambushed by those persuaded by disloyalty. And the end phrase is quite specific…..no loyal beings were “harmed”. And I think further that those disloyal ones were harmed by their own “hand” by the free will choices each made personally within their own mind. And additional text reveals how many of those have since requested and received forgiveness for the error of their choice upon further consideration, evidence, and outcomes. I know I have not and cannot answer this query in any completeness BB, but I always appreciate your thoughtful reflections and questions on the UB. Thanks for the topic and the discussion.
You have given me much to think about in your responses. I appreciate your patience. Well… back to more reading!
BB
Hello BB,
You have had good feedback from readers here. I once heard a long time reader-student say he needed about five times through the book before it all came together. Indeed, a lot of time is needed to comprehend what the UB authors are attempting to do for us. Many of us will say more readings are needed! Each person needs his unique effort to understand and personal effort at relating to spirit realities always results in good. The Thought Adjusters are without need of rest and therefore will always help a person at any moment. When we share we give Thought Adjusters opportunities to lead us, perhaps in ways we never dreamed possible. It is good to learn to listen for Thought Adjusters working in other minds!
Have a great Journey to Paradise!
Mark K
Hello BB, You have had good feedback from readers here. I once heard a long time reader-student say he needed about five times through the book before it all came together. Indeed, a lot of time is needed to comprehend what the UB authors are attempting to do for us. Many of us will say more readings are needed! Each person needs his unique effort to understand and personal effort at relating to spirit realities always results in good. The Thought Adjusters are without need of rest and therefore will always help a person at any moment. When we share we give Thought Adjusters opportunities to lead us, perhaps in ways we never dreamed possible. It is good to learn to listen for Thought Adjusters working in other minds! Have a great Journey to Paradise! Mark K
Very true, and thanks, Mark.
BB
Just to touch on one question you had BB. The part about destroying that being with liaison forces is interesting. It would seem that these beings became extremely deluded as a result of joining the rebellion. There is no way for them to destroy a being lol. Only the executioners can do that. Liaison forces are just interfacing energies. Spiritual beings can pro-create through liaison, it’s like spiritual sex. In other words these beings where going to try and rape this being to death.
Hi Scott…glad you’re back. I know you mean well and meant well by your last comment….but Brother, rape is a violent and physical act of dominance and it has nothing to do with sex or liason. I know the term brutal offers analogies for us to consider but this isn’t an appropriate or victim-sensitive one I don’t think. But I wonder if you think fear exists beyond the mortal planets of birth and if any of these celestials knew or know of fear? And perhaps you can offer a different analogous term for comparison to the feelings the celestials may have had while in the grip of this uncertainty and confusion? Peace.
Just to touch on one question you had BB. The part about destroying that being with liaison forces is interesting. It would seem that these beings became extremely deluded as a result of joining the rebellion. There is no way for them to destroy a being lol. Only the executioners can do that. Liaison forces are just interfacing energies. Spiritual beings can pro-create through liaison, it’s like spiritual sex. In other words these beings where going to try and rape this being to death.
Oh my! Are you sure, TUB? Perhaps the word “liason” is used in a few different contexts besides sex. That is a scary thought!
BB
Only the executioners can do that.
I was not thinking of death of personality, which agents of AOD are responsible for executing. I was thinking more along the lines of death of the celestial body which houses the personality.
BB
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