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It must be taken into consideration that when an execution like annihilation would be put into affect, that the grandfather law of time, would be in play. In order to remove someone from history, as though they had never been, there must be adjustments made to remove all records from history to keep, any ancestral issues from coming back and biting one in the ass. Cause and effect, even in a chaotic system of free will can have detrimental effects on the future, therefore, before any one or thing is annihilated, an alternate history must be created to take or keep the liaison circuits from self-destructing, but would it be easier to rehabilitate those who would be effected, in such a way, as to not be affected negatively if annihilation was not made the final decree? Energy can be changed but never eliminated, or annihilated, without consequence.
Some text on the time delay:
(615.4) 54:3.2 Although conscious and wholehearted identification with evil (sin) is the equivalent of nonexistence (annihilation), there must always intervene between the time of such personal identification with sin and the execution of the penalty — the automatic result of such a willful embrace of evil — a period of time of sufficient length to allow for such an adjudication of such an individual’s universe status as will prove entirely satisfactory to all related universe personalities, and which will be so fair and just as to win the approval of the sinner himself.
(615.5) 54:3.3 But if this universe rebel against the reality of truth and goodness refuses to approve the verdict, and if the guilty one knows in his heart the justice of his condemnation but refuses to make such confession, then must the execution of sentence be delayed in accordance with the discretion of the Ancients of Days. And the Ancients of Days refuse to annihilate any being until all moral values and all spiritual realities are extinct, both in the evildoer and in all related supporters and possible sympathizers.
Me here: It is unfortunate that you keep inserting both terms and concepts which are not derived from text (I can only guess we’re getting another dose of second hand Halvorson-isms here – and as midi says, to his (Chris”s) detriment – a student speaking for a teacher and mangling the concepts presented is well displayed here I think). There is no such being as an executioner…as demonstrated by a key word search of the term….except for beings that are considered reconcilers who act on behalf of others and do not kill or eliminate ANY other beings. Certainly power controllers are NOT empowered to end life of any being for any reason.
There is an executioner that can destroy beings Brad. I didn’t get that information from Chris. Why would you assume that I am referring to a “power controller”?
I am guessing you read this paragraph…
(276.1) 25:2.8 3. The Divine Executioner. The conciliator qualified by inherent nature to make contact with the material beings of the realms and to execute the decisions of the commission. Divine executioners, being fourth creatures — quasi-material beings — are almost, but not quite, visible to the short-range vision of the mortal races.
But did you look at this paragraph?
53:3.5 He contended that the executioners of the Ancients of Days could be debarred from functioning in the local systems if the native beings would only assert their independence. He maintained that immortality was inherent in the system personalities, that resurrection was natural and automatic, and that all beings would live eternally except for the arbitrary and unjust acts of the executioners of the Ancients of Days
So Lucifer thought that immortality was natural and that everyone could live forever where it not for the unjust acts of the executioners of the Ancient of Days. What do you think he referring to?
(615.5) 54:3.3 But if this universe rebel against the reality of truth and goodness refuses to approve the verdict, and if the guilty one knows in his heart the justice of his condemnation but refuses to make such confession, then must the execution of sentence be delayed in accordance with the discretion of the Ancients of Days. And the Ancients of Days refuse to annihilate any being until all moral values and all spiritual realities are extinct, both in the evildoer and in all related supporters and possible sympathizers.
They refuse to annihilate any being who isn’t already morally dead inside. So that means that they will annihilate a being who is dead inside. All I said was that they have the power to destroy a being, not that they are going around destroying beings.
Bradly wrote: . . . Manotia…and all universe beings….was and remains totally safe in God’s kingdom. No being is subject to another or to any form of random execution.I agree with you Brad. Cessation of life may be decreed in subordinate tribunals within a superuniverse, but execution of such occurs by the direct act of the Ancient of Days.2:3:3 Cessation of existence is usually decreed at the dispensational or epochal adjudication of the realm or realms. On a world such as Urantia it comes at the end of a planetary dispensation. Cessation of existence can be decreed at such times by co-ordinate action of all tribunals of jurisdiction, extending from the planetary council up through the courts of the Creator Son to the judgment tribunals of the Ancients of Days. The mandate of dissolution originates in the higher courts of the superuniverse following an unbroken confirmation of the indictment originating on the sphere of the wrongdoer’s residence; and then, when sentence of extinction has been confirmed on high, the execution is by the direct act of those judges residential on, and operating from, the headquarters of the superuniverse.The rule of law is the law of God whose creations outwork cosmic law. The universe courts and tribunals are truly divine and in our superuniverse, are truly merciful.Brad: Further evidence that Manotia…and all universe beings….was and remains totally safe in God’s kingdom. No being is subject to another or to any form of random execution.
Love ya Scott….but I think you were a better student before your more recent discipleship and tutoring. You seem to have lost your own perspective trying to adapt another’s. Just my opinion. Just because someone you admire says something doesn’t make it true or even mean you actually understand their meaning or intent. Peace Bro!!What is odd about this entire back and forth between me and you is that I never once said that any being was in danger of actually being destroyed. You literally have been debating against something I have never said this entire time. When you make things up like that it really detracts from the rest of what you are saying. Its not that hard for someone to go back on this forum and notice that I never actually said a being was in danger from being destroyed.
Hi Scott….sorry but hadn’t noticed this was between you and me at all….seems others share my confusion about your point. So then, no being was ever in jeopardy by any other being and none ever have been, but Manotia was afraid? of what? And the rebels believed they could harm her or another even though this is a universal and eternal impossibility that had never occurred before? but never fear for Manotia was protected by some executioner? You see, I remain confused as to your original point and your ongoing defense of that unknown and heretofore misunderstood point. Manotia had no such protection…and needed no such protection. Therefore, her quote has some other meaning than she was “attacked” or an mind/spirit/person “rape” was attempted (as this has never ever happened) and her destruction which the rebels sought must have been, therefore, by means of her understanding the consequences to her from their attempt to get her to join the rebellion by a liaison of influence and persuasion of her peers and superiors. So what’s your point then? Or is there still something we actually disagree about here?
And I hope people do read the topic in time to come and understand this essential truth – we live in and are cosmic citizens of a friendly universe, ruled by love, and no being faces any danger from any quarter except as results from our inviolate free will and even that takes a very long time to reach any limit of mercy credits. To teach anything else or believe anything else is fundamentally contrary to the Revelation. We are each God’s personal children and in His watch care and revered and cherished by all other beings….and those who sin and even rebel are also loved thusly and given so much time and love to turn toward the light of this endless love and mercy.
It is evil at least, if not sin itself, to teach anything at all that promotes fear or delivers doubt of the universal truth of love and mercy to others IMO Scott. There was nothing to fear by any party in the text posted and never has been. The only act or outcome that could possibly be dangerous or destructive to any individual was that individual free will choice thrust upon every celestial in the system which might lead to their own suicide of non-reality existence and the potential of self destruction by that free will choice. Nothing trivial about the issue….
Hi Scott….sorry but hadn’t noticed this was between you and me at all….seems others share my confusion about your point.
If you go back to the beginning you will see that I lay out my point quite clearly. It is that the rebels are delusional for thinking that they can destroy another being. (Obviously they can’t).
So then, no being was ever in jeopardy by any other being and none ever have been, but Manotia was afraid? of what?
Where in the text does it say that Manotia was afraid? She didn’t seem afraid to me. Probably because she knew no real harm could come upon her.
And the rebels believed they could harm her or another even though this is a universal and eternal impossibility that had never occurred before? but never fear for Manotia was protected by some executioner?
Every big idea the rebels had was a delusion, so its not surprising that they had this delusion of harming another being. None of their ideas have ever come true. All of their schemes are eternal impossibilities. When did I say an executioner was protecting her?
– we live in and are cosmic citizens of a friendly universe, ruled by love, and no being faces any danger from any quarter except as results from our inviolate free will and even that takes a very long time to reach any limit of mercy credits. To teach anything else or believe anything else is fundamentally contrary to the Revelation. We are each God’s personal children and in His watch care and revered and cherished by all other beings….and those who sin and even rebel are also loved thusly and given so much time and love to turn toward the light of this endless love and mercy. It is evil at least, if not sin itself, to teach anything at all that promotes fear or delivers doubt of the universal truth of love and mercy to others IMO Scott. There was nothing to fear by any party in the text posted and never has been.
Right but what does that have to do with me? Where did I teach fear? Who is teaching fear here? Think about this. I am saying that the rebels are not even allowed to touch another being in any harmful way. You are saying that the rebels are free to enact their “liaison forces” on another being. You are actually promoting a more frightening situation than I am.
The only act or outcome that could possibly be dangerous or destructive to any individual was that individual free will choice thrust upon every celestial in the system which might lead to their own suicide of non-reality existence and the potential of self destruction by that free will choice. Nothing trivial about the issue….
When did I say that Manotia was ever in danger? She rejected their plans to join in the insult against Michael, so obviously she was always safe.
Just to touch on one question you had BB. The part about destroying that being with liaison forces is interesting. It would seem that these beings became extremely deluded as a result of joining the rebellion. There is no way for them to destroy a being lol. Only the executioners can do that. Liaison forces are just interfacing energies. Spiritual beings can pro-create through liaison, it’s like spiritual sex. In other words these beings where going to try and rape this being to death.
This is what the BIG STINK is about Scott. Your words, which I have quoted above. You stated that liaison forces are interfacing energies; that spiritual beings use interfacing liaison energies to procreate like spiritual sex. Then you wrote the most objectionable thing I’ve ever seen you write, that the liaison forces were going to try to rape Manotia to death. It’s really an outrageous claim and we all pretty much agree that it doesn’t ring the truth bell. It really does smell bad.
We are all trying to help you understand the error of your thinking with as much patience as we can muster. Instead, you continually dig deeper entrenchments of self-defense. Why you continue to defend this idea I don’t know; it seems insane. Are you defending the idea or are you defending your ego, or Chrisology or what? Either way, just stop it! Why defend something so ludicrous? Just admit you were wrong about the rape thing and let it go. We will still like you if you do. Honest.
You are saying that the rebels are free to enact their “liaison forces” on another being. You are actually promoting a more frightening situation than I am.
I’ve never even thought such a thing. Certainly never said it. Liaison forces are ambassadors or propaganda-ists or communicators representing a body of like minded persons or organizational units. I’m the one who insisted you agree that all are safe in God’s universe and in no danger by any other party or group ever. So now you claim I say the opposite? Don’t get it. But done here until sanity returns.
Bonita: that spiritual beings use interfacing liaison energies to procreate like spiritual sex.
They do procreate through a liaison with each other!
(862.6)77:6.2 Among the children of Adamson there were just sixteen of the peculiar progenitors of the secondary midwayers. These unique children were equally divided as regards sex, and each couple was capable of producing a secondary midwayer every seventy days by a combined technique of sex and nonsex liaison. And such a phenomenon was never possible on earth before that time, nor has it ever occurred since.
(415.1)37:9.9The Material Sons of God. When a creative liaison between the Creator Son and the universe representative of the Infinite Spirit, the Universe Mother Spirit, has completed its cycle, when no more offspring of the combined nature are forthcoming, then does the Creator Son personalize in dual form his last concept of being, thus finally confirming his own and original dual origin.
(385.2)35:1.3 The Melchizedeks of our universe were all created within one millennial period of standard time by the Creator Son and the Creative Spirit in liaison with the Father Melchizedek.
(307.1)28:2.1Omniaphim are created by the Infinite Spirit in liaison with the Seven Supreme Executives,
If the rebel midwayers where trying to have a liaison with Manotia then add 2 and 2 together. That is an attempt to rape. You had no idea that the authors used the word liaison in this manner, that is what led to this big stink. And sorry but this is not the most offensive thing you have seen written, did Manotia offend you when she accused the rebels of attempting to destroy her? I am accusing them of the same thing.
Bonita: Either way, just stop it!
Sorry I missed the memo that said you have the authority to tell others to not talk.
Every big idea the rebels had was a delusion, so its not surprising that they had this delusion of harming another being. None of their ideas have ever come true. All of their schemes are eternal impossibilities. When did I say an executioner was protecting her?
Interesting Scott, that you make this type of statements. I’m not sure if you were born in Canada, but you reside there, and when I grow up in Toronto, the education which I got back then was considered to be years above the same level in the USA, but I assume that you were subject to History in school, especially about Canada and the USA, as was I.
Therefore, to say that “None of their ideas have ever come true”, would be incorrect, where the History of the United States followed the same type of revolution or rebellion against Great Britain, which resulted in the Constitution of the United States. Even though Canada considers their-self as an independent country, they are still, in some way, subject to Great Britain, if not by monetary reparation but many consider that the Queen in England is their Queen in Canada. If you don’t believe me look at some of your currency which still presents her picture.
In order to state that “All of their schemes are eternal impossibilities” would indicate that, here again, you are proficient enough on this subject to make this kind of statement. If this is the case, could you enlighten us on the rebel’s schemes.
Now, by saying above, “so its not surprising that they had this delusion of harming another being” would first, indicate that you confirm that the rebels might have the ability “of harming another being”, regardless of whether they were or were not delusional, you make the case or give impression that they can, or at least by your definition, this is what you are saying, still. It is your writing skills which is being misinterpreted here, whether what you are writing is actually what you mean, is in question. It appears that you are writing as you would talk to someone, if you were face to face with them, much like Chris’ radio presentation, where he also responds to an audience which we can not see, but may be picking up their body language, and responding to that atmosphere in the room and to those who may be dialed in on the phone. If you don’t proof read your posts, with a indifferent mind, as the reader might receive or interpret, then your posts may be taken or understood differently, than if you were in the same room.
Also, what was the “big idea”, or ideas that the rebels had that make you think that they were a “delusion”? Being spiritual beings, and having the ability to make note of the actions of the material beings, being affected, by the spiritual administration, and it would seem that on the upper end of this administration, it was an absentee administration, being handed down from many who had no first hand experience, nor seemed to want any. So, what was the “delusion” you speck of, where delusion must be offset by truth or results, so what was it that Lucifer said in the Manifesto, that makes you think that there were no problems which might justify a rebellion? Do you think that England thought that the American revolution was justified, no because they fought to keep the status quo.
@midi none of the ideas that they came up with (when they were rebelling) came true. I am talking about all of their sophistries, those sophistries are filled with ideas. What evidence do I have that none of these ideas came true? Well that is why the authors call them sophistries. A sophistry is something that is not inherently real. Its fundamentally false.
Often the authors of TUB will consider the etymology of a word when they use it. Its not hard to see why the authors use the word liaison when they talk about procreating spiritual beings. Or when they talk about liaison in relation to energies.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/liaison
1640s, from French liaison “a union, a binding together” (13c.), from Late Latin ligationem (nominative ligatio) “a binding,” from past participle stem of Latin ligare “to bind” (seeligament ). Originally a cookery term for a thickening agent for sauces. Sense of “intimate relations” is from 1806. Military sense of “cooperation between branches, allies, etc.” is from 1816. The noun meaning “one who is concerned with liaison of units, etc.” is short for liaison officer.
Chris has unpacked the meaning of many of the words in the Urantia Book. His interpretations of words in TUB is highly regarded in TUB circles. His definitions of words are even posted on Urantia websites.
They do procreate through a liaison with each other!
(862.6)77:6.2 Among the children of Adamson there were just sixteen of the peculiar progenitors of the secondary midwayers. These unique children were equally divided as regards sex, and each couple was capable of producing a secondary midwayer every seventy days by a combined technique of sex and nonsex liaison. And such a phenomenon was never possible on earth before that time, nor has it ever occurred since.
(415.1)37:9.9 The Material Sons of God. When a creative liaison between the Creator Son and the universe representative of the Infinite Spirit, the Universe Mother Spirit, has completed its cycle, when no more offspring of the combined nature are forthcoming, then does the Creator Son personalize in dual form his last concept of being, thus finally confirming his own and original dual origin.
(385.2)35:1.3 The Melchizedeks of our universe were all created within one millennial period of standard time by the Creator Son and the Creative Spirit in liaison with the Father Melchizedek.
(307.1)28:2.1 Omniaphim are created by the Infinite Spirit in liaison with the Seven Supreme Executives,
If the rebel midwayers where trying to have a liaison with Manotia then add 2 and 2 together. That is an attempt to rape. You had no idea that the authors used the word liaison in this manner, that is what led to this big stink. And sorry but this is not the most offensive thing you have seen written, did Manotia offend you when she accused the rebels of attempting to destroy her? I am accusing them of the same thing.
So, what’s you point Scott, the quotes that you are using have nothing to do with “rape”, what are you drinking?
Your first quote is in reference to the creation of secondary Midwayers, which was different from the creation of primary Midwayers. Also, if you want to cut and past words and phrases to make that point, I would think that the authors would just say “rape” instead of making statements which are in definition of something altogether different, but the authors can not account for the readers imagination, or reading skills. Nothing you have presented above can be construed as “rape”. So, by your constant repetition, you are acknowledging that you actually believe that this “rape” issue is actually your own idea, therefore those who have stated a negative response are justified in their accusations.
@midi none of the ideas that they came up with (when they were rebelling) came true. I am talking about all of their sophistries, those sophistries are filled with ideas. What evidence do I have that none of these ideas came true? Well that is why the authors call them sophistries. A sophistry is something that is not inherently real. Its fundamentally false.
What do you think about the American revolution? Was it rebellion against established, constellation order? I was reading the following and got to thinking…
5 The Constellation Fathers are little occupied with the individuals of an inhabited planet, but they are closely associated with those legislative and lawmaking functions of the constellations which so greatly concern every mortal race and national group of the inhabited worlds.
BB
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