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Mara brought up the word justice, (which is different from judgment). Justice is a group function. According to the Foreword, justice is an impersonal disclosure of divinity, and divine justice is always tempered with mercy (0:1.17). It requires infinite wisdom to determine the proportions of mercy and justice to be meted out (2:3.2). So, how does a human group with limited wisdom determine what is merciful and what is just? Undoubtedly decisions concerning justice will be imperfect and that is why those whose deeds are being judged know they can wail and scream and cry against it in an attempt to change the conscience of the group. I think one of the biggest problems with human group justice is a weakness of commitment to what it means to love another person like a father. Sometimes love means saying no.
So, how does a human group with limited wisdom determine what is merciful and what is just? Undoubtedly decisions concerning justice will be imperfect and that is why those whose deeds are being judged know they can wail and scream and cry against it in an attempt to change the conscience of the group. I think one of the biggest problems with human group justice is a weakness of commitment to what it means to love another person like a father. Sometimes love means saying no.
The wisdom of the group is superior to the wisdom of the individual, imperfect though group wisdom may be. It’s the best way we have to adjudicate worldly matters, and that is inclusive of local matters as well.
159:1:6 Thus did Jesus teach the dangers and illustrate the unfairness of sitting in personal judgment upon one’s fellows. Discipline must be maintained, justice must be administered, but in all these matters the wisdom of the brotherhood should prevail. Jesus invested legislative and judicial authority in the group, not in the individual. Even this investment of authority in the group must not be exercised as personal authority. There is always danger that the verdict of an individual may be warped by prejudice or distorted by passion. Group judgment is more likely to remove the dangers and eliminate the unfairness of personal bias. Jesus sought always to minimize the elements of unfairness, retaliation, and vengeance.The wisdom of the group is superior to the wisdom of the individual, imperfect though group wisdom may be. It’s the best way we have to adjudicate worldly matters, and that is inclusive of local matters as well.
So I guess that means that we will have to go on listening to the wailing and ranting and incessant clamor coming from those who think they are victims of injustice. Problem is, they tend to sway the weak into joining them. Before you know it, everyone is a victim of some kind of injustice and the whole world becomes focused on it . . . not unlike the world today, in fact.
The attitude of fear regarding our safety or fairness in God’s creation is disturbing to me.
Bradly wrote: The attitude of fear regarding our safety or fairness in God’s creation is disturbing to me.
Me too. Michael petitioned to have the lunatics locked up in order to make sure we are safe. He sent his Spirit of Truth to protect us from their sophistry.That is the way of the universe and it is ultimately fair.
Why are both of you so “disturbed”? This must comes from fear of some kind or form. And you both agree that fear is a poison to the mind.
Bonita, you say that the Spirit of Truth was sent to “protect” us from sophistry. That implies a fear of sophism. Fear is poisonous to the mind, you both agreed. Do you feel less fearful now that the lunatics are locked up?
If you also believe that the universe is ultimately fair, then why be troubled at all?
I must admit, I really appreciate what emanny has offered this thread. You are on fire dude! in a figurative and positive way. You have me looking at the topic of judgment in a whole new light. I find that there are many gaps in TUB’s narratives that allow for the reader to entertain alternative views besides conventional, widely circulated ones. The concept that “others were interned for their own protection… This is known as protective custody. Is it possible that Michael was keeping his warring children apart so that no harm will come till full mercy and adjudication is completed” never crossed my mind; a very interesting concept.
One thing I have learned over the years reading TUB is it is not a restatement of facts text, exclusively. Its narratives are multi-layered which I believe allow for interpretation.
BB
So how does Jesus help us become sophistry-proof? That’s an easy one. Sophistry, or fallacious deception, is anti-truth; I guess you can actually say it is anti-Christ. Having the presence of Truth living within your soul shines light on all that is anti-truth. It’s like turning the light on in a dark roach-infested room.
So how does Jesus help us become sophistry-proof? That’s an easy one. Sophistry, or fallacious deception, is anti-truth; I guess you can actually say it is anti-Christ. Having the presence of Truth living within your soul shines light on all that is anti-truth. It’s like turning the light on in a dark roach-infested room.
Jesus helps by showing the way, the truth and the life. There is no anti-Christ. There are those that abide in God and those that do not. Those that do not abide in God are unrealities. Unrealities pose no threat at all.
The light that shines suddenly in a once dark room only reveals that there are no monsters or roaches there at all. Nothing to be afraid of. One must not think of the Spirit of Truth as a shield, but as a lantern that leads the way to truth and life.
What I love so much about Jesus’ Spirit of Truth is that he’s so often known as the Comforter, the Divine Paraclete or Advocate. His presence is a protection against darkness and also against the traitorous ones. Thank you Jesus.
53:8.7 Before the bestowal of Michael these rulers of darkness sought to maintain their authority on Urantia, and they persistently withstood the minor and subordinate celestial personalities. But since the day of Pentecost this traitorous Caligastia and his equally contemptible associate, Daligastia, are servile before the divine majesty of the Paradise Thought Adjusters and the protective Spirit of Truth, the spirit of Michael, which has been poured out upon all flesh.
What I love so much about Jesus’ Spirit of Truth is that he’s so often known as the Comforter, the Divine Paraclete or Advocate. His presence is a protection against darkness and also against the traitorous ones. Thank you Jesus.
194:2.3 This bestowal of the Son’s spirit effectively prepared all normal men’s minds for the subsequent universal bestowal of the Father’s spirit (the Adjuster) upon all mankind. In a certain sense, this Spirit of Truth is the spirit of both the Universal Father and the Creator Son.
194:2.4 Do not make the mistake of expecting to become strongly intellectually conscious of the outpoured Spirit of Truth. The spirit never creates a consciousness of himself, only a consciousness of Michael, the Son. From the beginning Jesus taught that the spirit would not speak of himself. The proof, therefore, of your fellowship with the Spirit of Truth is not to be found in your consciousness of this spirit but rather in your experience of enhanced fellowship with Michael.
194:2.5 The spirit also came to help men recall and understand the words of the Master as well as to illuminate and reinterpret his life on earth.
194:2.6 Next, the Spirit of Truth came to help the believer to witness to the realities of Jesus’ teachings and his life as he lived it in the flesh, and as he now again lives it anew and afresh in the individual believer of each passing generation of the spirit-filled sons of God.
194:2.7 Thus it appears that the Spirit of Truth comes really to lead all believers into all truth, into the expanding knowledge of the experience of the living and growing spiritual consciousness of the reality of eternal and ascending sonship with God.
I see nothing mentioned here about The Spirit of Truth protecting against anyone. The quote, 53:8.7, written by Manovandet Melchizedek talks of the traitorous Caligastia and Daligastia but makes no mention of who they betrayed in that quote.
Part II THE LOCAL UNIVERSE papers were sponsored by a Nebadon Corp of Local Universe Personalities acting by the authority of Gabriel of Salvington.
I must assume that the traitorous acts of Calgastia et al were against Gabriel. My quotes on The Spirit of Truth was sponsored by a commission of twelve Urantia midwayers acting under the supervision of a Melchizedek revelatory director.
This commission of twelve were not under Gabriel’s authority and they a have a different point of view. Apparently Manovandet has the same attitude toward Caligastia as does Gabriel. Gabriel gave authority for Paper 53.
The question in my mind remains as to whether Caligastia betrayed Michael and Father or just the authority of Gabriel. Gabriel is not Deity. Willful disloyalty to Gabriel alone is not sin or iniquity. Lets think about that and discuss it further.
Getting back to justice . . . We are told that justice is always tempered with mercy (2:3.2). We’re also told that justice is not an attitude of the Father, the Son or the Spirit personally, or individually. Justice is an attitude of the Trinity. Even though the Trinity is one, justice is a plural function. One single personality of the Trinity cannot mete justice alone (10:6.2). The personal expression of justice is called mercy. And we are told that our individual mercy credits are always far in excess of your ability to exhaust them, as long as we are sincere of purpose and honest of heart (28:6.7).
Bonita wrote: Justice is an attitude of the Trinity.In the superuniverse justice-judgment is in the hands of Trinity Sons 10:6:8 : the 3 Ancients of Days116:4:6 And as it is with the Master Spirits of the superuniverses, so is it with the triune rulers of these supercreations — the Ancients of Days. These personifications of Trinity justice-judgment in time and space are the field fulcrums for the mobilizing almighty power of the Supreme, serving as the sevenfold focal points for the evolution of trinitarian sovereignty in the domains of time and space. From their vantage point midway between Paradise and the evolving worlds, these Trinity-origin sovereigns see both ways, know both ways, and co-ordinate both ways.Why are they called the Ancients of Days?15:0:2 Early in the materialization of the universal creation the sevenfold scheme of the superuniverse organization and government was formulated. The first post-Havona creation was divided into seven stupendous segments, and the headquarters worlds of these superuniverse governments were designed and constructed. The present scheme of administration has existed from near eternity, and the rulers of these seven superuniverses are rightly called Ancients of Days.And by the way, in our ascension career we will come face to face, so to speak, with each member of God the Sevenfold 0:8:0, and, after recognizing our Creator Son, the next Son in the sevenfold approach to Deity is the Ancients of Days. .Getting back to judgement.
54:5.13 12. Time, even in a universe of time, is relative: If a Urantia mortal of average length of life should commit a crime which precipitated world-wide pandemonium, and if he were apprehended, tried, and executed within two or three days of the commission of the crime, would it seem a long time to you? And yet that would be nearer a comparison with the length of Lucifer’s life even if his adjudication, now begun, should not be completed for a hundred thousand Urantia years. The relative lapse of time from the viewpoint of Uversa, where the litigation is pending, could be indicated by saying that the crime of Lucifer was being brought to trial within two and a half seconds of its commission. From the Paradise viewpoint the adjudication is simultaneous with the enactment.
The Trinity knows the outcome of the adjudication and I presume Michael and Immanuel do also.
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139:6.5 The apostles all loved and respected Nathaniel, and he got along with them splendidly, excepting Judas Iscariot. Judas did not think Nathaniel took his apostleship sufficiently seriously and once had the temerity to go secretly to Jesus and lodge complaint against him. Said Jesus: “Judas, watch carefully your steps; do not overmagnify your office. Who of us is competent to judge his brother? It is not the Father’s will that his children should partake only of the serious things of life. Let me repeat: I have come that my brethren in the flesh may have joy, gladness, and life more abundantly. Go then, Judas, and do well that which has been intrusted to you but leave Nathaniel, your brother, to give account of himself to God.” And the memory of this, with that of many similar experiences, long lived in the self-deceiving heart of Judas Iscariot.
My next question is in the matter of Gabriel vs Lucifer, does Gabriel play the part of prosecutor? In the indictments against Lucifer et al., are the judgements those of deeds? If so, what were the actual deeds? 54:2.3 Lucifer’s folly was the attempt to do the nondoable, to short-circuit time in an experiential universe. Lucifer’s crime was the attempted creative disenfranchisement of every personality in Satania, the unrecognized abridgment of the creature’s personal participation—freewill participation—in the long evolutionary struggle to attain the status of light and life both individually and collectively. In so doing, this onetime Sovereign of your system set the temporal purpose of his own will directly athwart the eternal purpose of God’s will as it is revealed in the bestowal of free will upon all personal creatures. The Lucifer rebellion thus threatened the maximum possible infringement of the freewill choice of the ascenders and servers of the system of Satania—a threat forevermore to deprive every one of these beings of the thrilling experience of contributing something personal and unique to the slowly erecting monument to experiential wisdom which will sometime exist as the perfected system of Satania. Thus does the Lucifer manifesto, masquerading in the habiliments of liberty, stand forth in the clear light of reason as a monumental threat to consummate the theft of personal liberty and to do it on a scale that has been approached only twice in all the history of Nebadon. Seems to me that the key words in the quote above by a Mighty Messenger is “attempt” and “attempted”. Does an attempt constitute a deed or an intent? Regards, Manny
I realize the unfairness of addressing an author who has been censored from posting on this site, but since he is free to roam other TUB forums, maybe this is fair, after all….
None of the rebel shenanigans made a dent in the ABSOLUTE levels of Deity, that’s why it is correct to use the words “attempt” and “attempted”.
So, how does a human group with limited wisdom determine what is merciful and what is just? Undoubtedly decisions concerning justice will be imperfect and that is why those whose deeds are being judged know they can wail and scream and cry against it in an attempt to change the conscience of the group. I think one of the biggest problems with human group justice is a weakness of commitment to what it means to love another person like a father. Sometimes love means saying no.
The wisdom of the group is superior to the wisdom of the individual, imperfect though group wisdom may be. It’s the best way we have to adjudicate worldly matters, and that is inclusive of local matters as well.
159:1:6 Thus did Jesus teach the dangers and illustrate the unfairness of sitting in personal judgment upon one’s fellows. Discipline must be maintained, justice must be administered, but in all these matters the wisdom of the brotherhood should prevail. Jesus invested legislative and judicial authority in the group, not in the individual. Even this investment of authority in the group must not be exercised as personal authority. There is always danger that the verdict of an individual may be warped by prejudice or distorted by passion. Group judgment is more likely to remove the dangers and eliminate the unfairness of personal bias. Jesus sought always to minimize the elements of unfairness, retaliation, and vengeance.Not sure why anyone would be worried about what used to be USA legal system, complete with habeus corpus, having too much wiggle room for whiners to rend their garments against the injustice of it all…
We do not have that “mob rule” anymore. Fact. Search the internet – TONS of info to support my assertion, here’s the latest:
http://www.rt.com/usa/313740-federal-court-nsa-spy/
We are as far away as can be today from the safety of group justice!
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