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emanny3003 wrote: At what level does Gabriel of Salvington interpret this admonition concerning the case of Gabriel vs Lucifer?
Gabriel is not judging Lucifer on any level; he is establishing a case against Lucifer’s sophistries. It’s a battle over ideas. For instance, I am not judging you personally when I state my opinion concerning your attitude toward Gabriel’s motives, which I think is entirely fallacious. Does that mean I’m judging you or your ideas? Really big difference there.
Gabriel is not judging Lucifer on any level; he is establishing a case against Lucifer’s sophistries. It’s a battle over ideas. For instance, I am not judging you personally when I state my opinion concerning your attitude toward Gabriel’s motives, which I think is entirely fallacious. Does that mean I’m judging you or your ideas? Really big difference there.
I have no attitude toward Gabriel’s motives, I would just like to know what they are. How do you know if Gabriel is not judging Lucifer? Do you presume to know Gabriel’s motives? I have no clue as to who you are judging or not judging. You state your opinions but does not necessarily belie your motives.
You are presumptuous to think that my questions are filled with an attitude or make a judgement or even express an opinion.
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emanny3003 wrote: You are presumptuous to think that my questions are filled with an attitude or make a judgement or even express an opinion.You’re missing the point. There’s a difference between a person’s ideas and a person’s identity. All I can tell from your posts is that you don’t seem to trust Gabriel and that you’re particularly concerned about Gabriel being judgmental against Lucifer (which incidentally makes one wonder whose side you’re on, but I admit that I don’t know). The point you are missing is that Gabriel is not judging Lucifer. He simply has an opinion about Lucifer’s ideas, just like I have an opinion about your ideas. It doesn’t mean that I’m judging you personally, just your ideas. I have to be able to judge your ideas in order to determine whether or not they fit into my cosmic-view. So far they don’t, which is why I reject them. Am I going to bring you before the magistrates and file charges against you because of your ideas? NO. WHY? Because your ideas are harmless to me and to others. Lucifer’s ideas are NOT harmless to others. Lucifer’s ideas have resulted in chaos and confusion, the complete opposite of balance, stability, unification and identification with reality, the goal of all personalities. Therefore we have a trial. Simple, really. Don’t understand your angst over it.
Gabriel is not judging Lucifer on any level; he is establishing a case against Lucifer’s sophistries. It’s a battle over ideas. For instance, I am not judging you personally when I state my opinion concerning your attitude toward Gabriel’s motives, which I think is entirely fallacious. Does that mean I’m judging you or your ideas? Really big difference there.
What you have done is accuse me of presenting an argument. Really you accuse me of offering up a fallacious argument. Your are establishing a case against me because of my sophistries. It is a battle of ideas, no. But in your words, you are not judging me at all and Gabriel is not judging Lucifer.
You’re missing the point. There’s a difference between a person’s ideas and a person’s identity. All I can tell from your posts is that you don’t seem to trust Gabriel and that you’re particularly concerned about Gabriel being judgmental against Lucifer (which incidentally makes one wonder whose side you’re on, but I admit that I don’t know). The point you are missing is that Gabriel is not judging Lucifer. He simply has an opinion about Lucifer’s ideas, just like I have an opinion about your ideas. It doesn’t mean that I’m judging you personally, just your ideas. I have to be able to judge your ideas in order to determine whether or not they fit into my cosmic-view. So far they don’t, which is why I reject them. Am I going to bring you before the magistrates and file charges against you because of your ideas? NO. WHY? Because your ideas are harmless to me and to others. Lucifer’s ideas are NOT harmless to others. Lucifer’s ideas have resulted in chaos and confusion, the complete opposite of balance, stability, unification and identification with reality, the goal of all personalities. Therefore we have a trial. Simple, really. Don’t understand your angst over it.
If Gabriel is not judging Lucifer as you say, and he only opines about Lucifer’s fallacious ideas, why does he consider them harmful? I do not take sides in this matter. I am carful not to because neither Michael nor Father have taken sides in this dispute of ideas between their children. We are cautioned not to take sides when brothers make ‘war’ in Heaven.
I do not dispute that ideas can be harmful to others. Look at the ideology of jihadist Islam. Some agree with me and others do not. There is a war of ideas on Earth.
Is Gabriel bring up charges against Lucifer’s ideas because they have harmed others? I presume witnesses have to be called in order to prove ‘harm’ in a court on high. These are capital charges because Gabriel seeks annihilation of the rebels. Evidence of harm must be irrefutable due to the capital nature of the crime. Chaos and confusion are difficult ‘harms’ to prove. Witnesses to being ‘confused’ are poor witnesses to start with. Chaos is a state of disorder and confusion. Such a state may reflect badly on an administration whose role it is to maintain order in the first place. After all, the buck stops with Gabriel.
I see the point all to well, Bonita. We all have a stake in the outcome of this trial. What if I claim that your ideas are causing confusion in the minds of the members of this forum? I am glad to know that my ideas are harmless to you and others. But what if I play the victim and claim that your ideas are harmful to me and others here?
emanny3003 wrote: . . . Gabriel seeks annihilation of the rebels.Where does it say that?
emanny3003 wrote: . . . Gabriel seeks annihilation of the rebels.
Where does it say that?
53:9.4Satan could come to Urantia because you had no Son of standing in residence—neither Planetary Prince nor Material Son. Machiventa Melchizedek has since been proclaimed vicegerent Planetary Prince of Urantia, and the opening of the case of Gabrielvs. Lucifer has signalized the inauguration of temporary planetary regimes on all the isolated worlds. It is true that Satan did periodically visit Caligastia and others of the fallen princes right up to the time of the presentation of these revelations. when there occurred the first hearing of Gabriel’s plea for the annihilation of the archrebels. Satan is now unqualifiedly detained on the Jerusem prison worlds.
Ah . . . thanks for the quote.
What else would the plea be once the case makes it to the Ancients of Days? All of the plea bargaining has already occurred and Lucifer has not accepted any offer for salvation, (repentance and rehab). Now that the case has reached the Ancients of Days it becomes one of two things: life or death. I don’t think the option for life in prison without parole is available. Neither would the option of, say, a million or so years in prison plus a million or so in community service along with a hefty penalty. There’s only two pleas available, life or death. I don’t think it has anything to do with Gabriel’s personal desires, although we are not told exactly what they are. I have to assume that he shares Michael’s thoughts and feelings on the subject and we know that Michael would definitely prefer salvation over death of his son. Any parent would, as would any loving brother.
What else would the plea be once the case makes it to the Ancients of Days?
In law a plea is a statement in which a person who has been accused of a crime says in court says that they are are guilty or not guilty o the crime. This is the prerogative of Lucifer, the accused, not Gabriel.
The word PLEA as used in the quote I gave was from Gabriel and was at a ‘first’ hearing. In this context, Gabriel was ‘seriously and emotionally requesting’ annihilation for the archrebels. (Webster’s Dictionary)
Do you think that at a first hearing that all mercy had been exhausted?
There’s only two pleas available, life or death. I
There are only two pleas from Lucifer, guilty or not guilty. Only a guilty plea from Lucifer would invite a plea deal. There are no plea deals with a not guilty plea.
Now that the case has reached the Ancients of Days it becomes one of two things: life or death. I don’t think the option for life in prison without parole is available.
There is one more option. Life as a freewill being as God created you. Your two choices presumes guilt and you accuse the Ancients of Days of prejudice.
I don’t think it has anything to do with Gabriel’s personal desires, although we are not told exactly what they are.
We are told exactly what Gabriel’s personal desires are in that quote. He “pleads” for the annihilation of the archrebels, his brothers. Loving brother, NOT!
53:8.4 The Son of Man was confident of success, and he knew that his triumph on your world would forever settle the status of his agelong enemies, not only in Satania but also in the other two systems where sin had entered. There was survival for mortals and security for angels when your Master, in reply to the Lucifer proposals, calmly and with divine assurance replied, “Get you behind me, Satan.” That was, in principle, the real end of the Lucifer rebellion. True, the Uversa tribunals have not yet rendered the executive decision regarding the appeal of Gabriel praying for the destruction of the rebels, but such a decree will, no doubt, be forthcoming in the fullness of time since the first step in the hearing of this case has already been taken.
What brother prays for the destruction of his brothers?
140:3.15 “I say to you: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, and pray for those who despitefully use you. And whatsoever you believe that I would do to men, do you also to them.
140:3.17 “You are commissioned to save men, not to judge them. At the end of your earth life you will all expect mercy; therefore do I require of you during your mortal life that you show mercy to all of your brethren in the flesh. Make not the mistake of trying to pluck a mote out of your brother’s eye when there is a beam in your own eye. Having first cast the beam out of your own eye, you can the better see to cast the mote out of your brother’s eye.
These admonitions were not limited to The Apostles but were directed to an entire universe.
Notice that Jesus wanted to confront his erring children as the Son of Man and not as Michael. He got this permission from Father Himself. Jesus wanted it to be a meeting of brothers, not one of father and sons.
Also notice that Satan has been treated differently than the others that went into rebellion. And it was only Satan that Jesus commanded to “Get you behind me, Satan.”. This is when the rebellion was ended.
Please take special notice of the fact that the parable of the “Prodigal Son” did not have an ending for the eldest son.
This ending has yet to be. Look upon Gabriel as the eldest son and see if you cannot follow what I have been saying here and elsewhere about Gabriel vs Lucifer.
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For those who still seek truth rather than consensus. For those here that do not to use TUB as a crutch, I will challenge you to ponder this. I Have no idea how Lucifer was treated other than it was merciful treatment. I do know that Gabriel still wants him and the other rebels destroyed, annihilated. He has pleaded and prayed for this to happen. Paradise has nothing to do with this.
TUB is a preview of coming attractions. We will know all of this eventually as we ascend. The ministering spirits are with us now whether we read the Urantia book or not.
Gabriel wished to annihilate the rebels in our name. We are all involved and the consequences belong to all of us, justified or not.
Bradly, you fail to see anyones perspective but your own, or possibly Bonita’s. You don’t listen and you bear false witness.
You are a faker and a phony. You are afraid of your own shadow. Keep hiding in your obfuscations.
Your hypocrisy is overwhelming. Your idolatry of self ambitions is now legendary. You cannot discuss anything without parroting TUB. Your entire mind has been taken over with slogans and creeds and quotes. You cannot think for yourself and that is a real pity. You cannot recognize the hypocrisy in almost every statement you write that is not a repetition or a quote of TUB.
Not only do you and Bonita make an idol of the Urantia Book, you both idolize each other. It’s time you grow some ‘limbs’, tadpole.
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It is odd how sometimes the difference between slander and a compliment is only…..the source. Here’s hoping for some sunshine in your life Louis. Peace.
It is odd how sometimes the difference between slander and a compliment is only…..the source. Here’s hoping for some sunshine in your life Louis. Peace.
Obliqueness is the hallmark of the hypocrite. The coward is like a candle in the wind. You risk losing your identity within the pages of a book 2097 pages long. No wonder it terrifies you if someone points out a distasteful aspect of what it actually says. You do not hope anything good for me, Bradly, because I am a terrorist to you. You have no peace to offer.
Obliqueness is the hallmark of the hypocrite.
Hypocrisy is the hallmark of the hypocrite. Such as carrying on and on and making such noise about “judging not” and then turning around to dump judgments on others about their inner life and motivations. IMO, very absurd judgments. Bradly – you’re a gem!
I think we should get back to the question: What is judgment?
The dictionary tells us that judgment is merely the ability to make decisions, and to form opinions. It is not an accident that the second adjutant mind spirit, the spirit of understanding, provides us with the gift of rapid judgment. It appears to be essential to the coordination and association of ideas. The lower animals make such judgments based upon experience, but with the presence of personality and the indwelling spirit, humans are capable of making rapid judgments concerning morality, meanings and values. It is a fundamental part of our psyche.36:5.7 2. The spirit of understanding – the impulse of co-ordination, the spontaneous and apparently automatic association of ideas. This is the gift of the co-ordination of acquired knowledge, the phenomenon of quick reasoning, rapid judgment, and prompt decision.
Jesus said, “Judge not.” He did not say, “Judgment not.” The admonition against judging is akin to the golden rule, which instructs us to treat others as Jesus would treat them. He explained that the spirit with which we judge others is the same spirit with which we will be judged; so, we should only judge as we would like to be judged ourselves. Or better yet, as a loving Father, would judge. Likewise, we are told to forgive others as Jesus would forgive them. The UB explains in the following quotes how forgiveness relates to the golden rule.This reply has been reported for inappropriate content.
Hypocrisy is the hallmark of the hypocrite. Such as carrying on and on and making such noise about “judging not” and then turning around to dump judgments on others about their inner life and motivations. IMO, very absurd judgments. Bradly – you’re a gem!
I suggest that you take it up with the Queen Bee, drone. (I refer you to Bonitas words in the previous post)
Some of you have highjacked TUB to become elitists snobs. It is shameful and pitiful that some of you have made an idol of such a gift. You use it for your self ambitions of snobbery and self aggrandizement.
To Bonita and Bradly, your spots are showing, Perdy and Pongo. Tas, as one of the puppies, your spots are soon to come.
BTW Pongo, is it not precious to be worshiped by tas?
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