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I turn away from this forum when you who are complaining out loud go into the weeds with each other. The trolling reminds me of elementary school behavior. Have you no self- control????
I’m out of here.
Many of us have had the experience in which reading the TUB is a different experience every time one reads it. I am on my 4th time reading cover to cover, and I am finding entirely new gems of wisdom and spiritual ‘salt’ to savor on each and every page.
Keryn, why do you think this is? Where it would seem that the text is changing as we read from time to time, or our understanding of its context, is different? Either way, it seems to be alive.
Are there any specific things that stand out as having changed? I noticed, in the past, as did Bonita, that there was a reference to being able to change weather patterns, under certain circumstances, and what she posted, I agreed with, although when searched, it was presented differently. So, we can see what is written in text today, but what of those things that we might remember as having changed. Is this crystallization or dynamic thought or memory?
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Sorry Mara, but running home with your ball reminds me a little of elementary school too, just sayin’ . . . especially since we’ve finally found something we can agree on, internalizing the Revelation. Your choice though, that’s fine. See you later. (BTW, pacing around the house and banging your head on the wall a few times works well.)
Anyway . . . back to the topic. Internalizing the written word is a personal matter, don’t you think? The way I internalize is different from the way Enno internalizes, does that mean one of us is wrong? Does it mean that one of us has to change our thinking? Does it mean one of us has ingeniously crystallized the Revelation? I don’t think so.
Enno, I think your angst over this is way overblown. What I see is that you have a lot of trouble putting your thoughts into words and instead of making the effort to explain yourself, you post cryptic Van/nodisms which usually don’t make much sense. I don’t know why you do this, I can only guess. On the surface it looks like an evasion technique designed to make it look like you have some kind of secret sauce the rest of us don’t have. I’m not saying that’s your motive, I’m saying that’s what it looks like. Just so you know . . . if that is your motive . . . I’m not interested in secret sauce, not impressed with it either.
I asked several questions at the beginning of this thread in order to get a better understanding of your thinking, Enno. But look!! It took pages and pages and some cajoling to get an answer out of you. But that didn’t happen before you presented several of those enigmatic secret sauce statements, which I can’t see any other reason for except to obfuscate. Really, do you think I can understand your position on this thread, or get to the bottom of your question if you do this, if you’re not forthcoming and honest? I can tell you this, I may be a load of c**p in your eyes, but I am honest and sincere. I do think it’s a good topic and worth getting into and I am interested in why you brought it up. I do want to get to the bottom of it. I’m not running home . . . just doing the face-palm maneuver . . . oy.
For example: when you say all of TUB has become dogma, or none of it . . . it leaves absolutely no room for discussion without clarification. Has TUB become dogma, or hasn’t it? I’m pretty sure that you think it has, but can you give us an example or an illustration of it? (Besides the existence of me and Bradly.) You threw in the little dig about “depending on a certain point of view” . . . well what view? a certain view? is that one view on one topic, one view on the entire book? what? What point of view changes TUB into dogma . . . or doesn’t?
Explain what you mean, please.
I noticed, in the past, as did Bonita, that there was a reference to being able to change weather patterns, under certain circumstances
I thought it said we would learn to control the weather. I think Rick thought he read that too. We all looked and no one found anything that said those words, only we found something akin to it. So, obviously when I read it the first time, I read something into it that wasn’t there. I think that happens a lot, which is why the book should be read multiple times. We simply cannot process everything in it with one pass through. Which is why we study it. The fact that we need to keep studying it is an indication that it has not yet crystallized.
Many of us have had the experience in which reading the TUB is a different experience every time one reads it. I am on my 4th time reading cover to cover, and I am finding entirely new gems of wisdom and spiritual ‘salt’ to savor on each and every page.
Keryn, why do you think this is? Where it would seem that the text is changing as we read from time to time, or our understanding of its context, is different? Either way, it seems to be alive. Are there any specific things that stand out as having changed? I noticed, in the past, as did Bonita, that there was a reference to being able to change weather patterns, under certain circumstances, and what she posted, I agreed with, although when searched, it was presented differently. So, we can see what is written in text today, but what of those things that we might remember as having changed. Is this crystallization or dynamic thought or memory?
I do not think the ‘text is changing as we read’. It is definitely because *we* are changing, as we read. I mean, think about it; a book as long as TUB means one cannot, in ordinary circumstances, read the entire tome more than once every 9 months – a year or more. As we are reading it, the concepts become more and more alive to us. Then, when we re-read it, new concepts become more clear and seem new but really, it’s just that now we have the background, the new eyes, with which to see the new concepts.
And on and on it goes, like a wonderful spiral moving us inward, closer to God. What could be more alive than that?! “Intellectual crystallization”? Not in my experience! Unless the word “crystallization” means to make more clearly defined. Then, maybe, yes. But not only intellectually but internally as well, from the heart to the head.
MidiChlorian wrote: I noticed, in the past, as did Bonita, that there was a reference to being able to change weather patterns, under certain circumstances
I thought it said we would learn to control the weather. I think Rick thought he read that too. We all looked and no one found anything that said those words, only we found something akin to it. So, obviously when I read it the first time, I read something into it that wasn’t there. I think that happens a lot, which is why the book should be read multiple times. We simply cannot process everything in it with one pass through. Which is why we study it. The fact that we need to keep studying it is an indication that it has not yet crystallized.
You are correct in what you thought it said, and yes, Rick presented the UB quote, that we thought was now different, but it was I who agreed with you, in the original context as you mentioned it at that time. I have an eidetic type of memory, and can recall many things almost instantly. The copy of those posts are still on the old forum web-site but one must be able to login in order to search it.
Nevertheless, there are many things which have changed over the years and this is not only what has been presented in the Urantia Book, there are many personal events that I remember which I have researched several time over the years and found differences in each time I have researched them. That’s why I found what Keryn wrote to be interesting, in that it might seem that there are others who might remember things differently.
And on and on it goes, like a wonderful spiral moving us inward, closer to God. What could be more alive than that?! “Intellectual crystallization”? Not in my experience! Unless the word “crystallization” means to make more clearly defined. Then, maybe, yes. But not only intellectually but internally as well, from the heart to the head.
Yes, precisely! As I pointed out pages ago, the Mighty Messenger who wrote paper 32 said he was endeavoring to aid us in the crystallization of our thoughts about matters having to do with infinity and eternity. Clearly he’s talking about making things clearer, as they say “crystal clear”.
From the heart to the head is simply another way of saying from the soul to the brain. Once it gets to the brain we can make it actionable. We can decide to do something with it. Not sure if that’s a bicycle with or without training wheels . . . whatever that secret sauce was all about . . . so yeah, it changes and grows all the time . . . with or without the extra help of training wheels or whatever.
Well said Keryn. I would add that for me there were a great many terms and concepts and relationships between those that I just ‘read-by’ lots of content the first time. But by the second and then the third reading, more and more of those ‘read-by’ concepts suddenly made connections. This has never stopped for me really. It’s not so much the new ‘dots’ discovered but the connection of those. Remember the old numbered dots on a page which when connected by pencil began to turn into a 2 dimensional picture? Imagine if such a dotted page delivered new dots for connection every time you came back to the dotted page. And then make the dots 3 dimensional instead of 2.
Every sincere and prayerful read about the reality of the universe in the FER adds more and more dots for additional lines of connection which deliver ever more dots and dimensional relationship. The ‘picture’ which emerges becomes more and more detailed with each reading and because the reader is now employing more depth and texture and dimension in our study, sometimes and suddenly whole new paradigms of perspective open up in delightfully inspiring and fulfilling ways!!
If the Revelation is having its way with us then these discoveries of meaning and value and ideal and destiny and fact and truth are the personal-revelation process of the Spirit within – Adjutant/Holy Spirit, Spirit of Truth, and Thought Adjuster. Since the UB was given to reduce confusion and eliminate error to assist a proper philosophy of living and harmonization of our dual nature in our religious life, we today have both forms of revelation to employ in our personal, experiential progress. The reading of the material is but a single step in a very long process of discernment, implementation, growth, progress, experience, and wisdom – all critical to soul growth.
It has been argued that no one needs the UB because of personal revelation and the Father Fragment. Utter nonsense!! If there were no need and no purpose, the UB would not then be here, no? Many try to trivialize the book as just another book – dead words written with dead ink on dead paper….nothing living and not truth since truth is transitory and the words written are not. Utter nonsense!! Or at least potentially so if one does more than read words written on paper. I have been educated by many books and inspired by many others but never have I been so educated about things so important or ever been so inspired that I changed the way I live and the why I choose and nothing has ever delivered such clarity of perspective on source, destiny, purpose, and the eternal promise of adventure!
But only a few, and Enno is one, reads and declares the UB to be a dangerous book and its concepts brittle and crystalized into a self indulgent and indolent anchor preventing personal growth and religious experience – the opposite of its message to all who will but read and study its contents. And so he plays mind games and word games (mostly with himself) filled with innuendo and insult but never by direct replies or reasoned responses and confesses to shock and awe, drive-by assault tactics which are never designed to improve understanding or relationship or offer any form of sharing or caring for other students – IMO. He then apologizes and starts over again in the same old schtick.
As Mara says, the cycle seems endless and pointless. But it’s not. It’s called training. How does a student body manage such voices? Can they be ignored-away? I don’t think so….such ones come with motive, intent, and agenda. So then, we must learn to cope and work together, as a student body, to agree upon and enforce a classroom orderliness that promotes sharing and learning and questioning and expressions that are sincere and also to prevent the hostile take overs that are and will remain a rather constant form of assault upon the sincere students of the Revelation. If we welcome someone into our midst who starts lobbing bombs in the room, we cannot simply leave the room I do not think.
For me, all sincerity and confusions are welcome. Disagreement with the text or doubts are quite normal for newer students. But this is not what Enno delivers. He has hijacked so many topics here to hear his own voice and insult and/or confound others, but not to contribute to any topic or discussion (with very rare exception).
I recall the teaching on turn the other cheek and its inadequacies related to a proactive response which muted and inverted the error of evil by the wisdom of the serpent and the innocence of the dove – both of which I am still missing by a mile it seems!! = ) But we learn by doing and the endeavor is worthy of the effort to improve our ability to respond in such trying and challenging situations!
Sorry Mara, but running home with your ball reminds me a little of elementary school too, just sayin’
I find the mockery and contentiousness on display in many of the posts over the course of this day quite embarrassing, really … what is it, again, that the people who come here say they believe in?
I think I will follow Mara.
Hey George…before you go…I’m posting a couple of topic links related to dissemination. I’d love to hear more from you regarding the state of dissemination and the divide you think exists or the differences you perceive between dissemination priorities and practices today. Best wishes!
Hope to hear far more from you George.
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Bradly wrote: But only a few, and Enno is one, reads and declares the UB to be a dangerous book and its concepts brittle and crystalized into a self indulgent and indolent anchor preventing personal growth and religious experience – the opposite of its message to all who will but read and study its contents. And so he plays mind games and word games (mostly with himself) filled with innuendo and insult but never by direct replies or reasoned responses and confesses to shock and awe, drive-by assault tactics which are never designed to improve understanding or relationship or offer any form of sharing or caring for other students – IMO. He then apologizes and starts over again in the same old schtick.As Mara says, the cycle seems endless and pointless. But it’s not. It’s called training. How does a student body manage such voices? Can they be ignored-away? I don’t think so….such ones come with motive, intent, and agenda. So then, we must learn to cope and work together, as a student body, to agree upon and enforce a classroom orderliness that promotes sharing and learning and questioning and expressions that are sincere and also to prevent the hostile take overs that are and will remain a rather constant form of assault upon the sincere students of the Revelation. If we welcome someone into our midst who starts lobbing bombs in the room, we cannot simply leave the room I do not think.For me, all sincerity and confusions are welcome. Disagreement with the text or doubts are quite normal for newer students. But this is not what Enno delivers. He has hijacked so many topics here to hear his own voice and insult and/or confound others, but not to contribute to any topic or discussion (with very rare exception).Thank you so much for your crystal clear explanation of Enno Angst. All of us have tried, or at least I have tried, very hard to understand the man. In all honesty I don’t think he wants to be understood, why I cannot say for sure. But what I can say is that I’m beyond being annoyed and tired of it. I’m ready to do something about it. Unlike some, I’m not going off in a huff, I’m determined to get to the bottom of it. I’m committed. (Or should be committed, not sure.) They say that there are so few second milers around. How true. People run from the hard work of getting to the truth of a matter, this prickly business is not meant to be comfortable. If you want to drink margaritas by the pool and dream of unicorns and rainbows . . . well, good luck with that.
Sorry Mara, but running home with your ball reminds me a little of elementary school too, just sayin’
I find the mockery and contentiousness on display in many of the posts over the course of this day quite embarrassing, really … what is it, again, that the people who come here say they believe in?
I think I will follow Mara.
And George, what I said to Mara was not mockery. It’s the truth. She’ll be back once she shakes it off. I walk around the room and bang my head, she runs home with her ball . . . same thing. Neither reaction is all that mature, in all honesty. It’s just a way of expressing frustration and it’s temporary . . . I hope.
100:3.2 Human likes and dislikes do not determine good and evil; moral values do not grow out of wish fulfillment or emotional frustration.
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Yes indeed Bonita….Enno Angst….a most unfortunate result of time as a truthseeker and student of the Revelation. I really like Enno, when his essence comes through on occasion and I can pierce the gloom for a moment. And I have a great empathy for all believers who have doubts, suspicions, anxieties, and uncertainties related to Father’s love and our destiny potential. It’s sad really.
For me, the more I read the UB, the more hope and joy spring forth. I have a lighter and brisker step upon the Pilgrim’s Path. I smile at more people and situations and get more smiles in return! The more we embrace the reality of who we are and where we come from and where we are going and the love of God and the family of creation, then the more fruit of the spirit we have for nourishment and for sharing with all others. The UB is a brilliant lamp of inspiration which delivers courage to the tadpoles from time.
Those who claim time in the text and an understanding of its contents but endlessly brood and doubt and share their dark perspective completely stun me. How can this be? What causes some minds to not let go of fear and angst? Why such a tight grip on anxiety? I just don’t get it. I wonder if it might be the “intellectual crystallization of religious concepts”? Hahahahahahha………
It’s unfortunate that some don’t seem to get your jocularity and tongue in cheek….well cheekiness I guess. You’re pretty fresh sometimes there fellow student/teacher. But your irony and wit continue to impress me….you still crack me up sometimes! And always make me think and reflect and reconsider and challenge my understanding in ways which deliver illumination, meaning, and value in our sharing together. Thanks for being you…and don’t take no wooden nickels Sister! When someone pees on your foot and tells you it’s raining, well, the fact remains they’re just wettin’ on your shoes! Perhaps such behavior should be pointed out? Just sayin’……. = )
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Bradly wrote: Perhaps such behavior should be pointed out? Just sayin’……. = )Yeah, just sayin’!
I’ve tried to walk away from this forum and forget about it several times, because honestly it’s a pain in the rump, but I keep thinking that there’s a lot of good that can be done here. And thanks for recognizing my kind of humor. Some people on this forum have no sense of humor at all, and that’s a shame.
Remember BB? He stormed out of here in an emotional snit. He complained that his ideas weren’t getting proper attention, that the Bonitian and Bradlynian censorship board was too much to bear. I saw recently that he is on a forum that gets emails from midwayers orbiting the earth in spaceships. Well . . . no wonder the food served at this table was unsatisfying to him! Of course he’s not going to find fulfillment here if that’s the kind of thing he needs. It was a good thing he went where he can converse with people who think like him. Right? And this is why I keep inviting Enno to find a place that thinks like him rather than lobbing bombs in the room like some kinda cyber terrorist.
Oh well. Time to take a few strides around the room, find a new place to bang my head. What were we talking about again? Oh yeah, internalizing the Revelation. BTW, don’t you think that involves more than just reading quotes? I mean, isn’t tying to explain how you understand TUB in your own words far more valuable than posting pages of quotes? What is with that? I know we all do it, but heck, it’s not the same as conversation. I know we need to provide references to what we’re talking about, but don’t you need to talk first? I think people are afraid of conversation and hide behind quote-speak. And then, there are those who use secret sauce . . . so weird. To be honest, I’ve tried the quote-speak myself and found that it confuses people . . . so I don’t do it unless I’m in a huge hurry. Anyway . . . just venting. Don’t let it bother you.
Wow! I just got freed up from were we were about 6 hours ago, had a comment prepared to go, and had one of those “hey! where did what I typed go? moments and then became involved in my day which didn’t allow me to log in, until now.
I must say that everyone who has posted said some very interesting things since then, all very positive (minus a few fixated things) and not like I’ve seen before. I’m very encouraged and will add to this evolving moment as best I can to do better to make myself understood, which clearly I haven’t done so far. I sense that the contentiousness has been brought about by simple human limitations to 1. Understand our fellows and 2. Having inherent problems with better self-expression capabilities. For example, in my case all my English teachers were in unison in letting me know I wasn’t very good with creative writing. Then you add to that that I’ve never been accused of being tactful in any aspect of life.
I especially appreciate your words of understanding Bradly and Bonita because I’m here to further my studies like you. It’s through what others post that I gain more knowledge, that’s the secret sauce.
I want to reply to everyone individually, and will do that eventually but I may not have enough time to do it all tonight and I would like to start with Mara.
Mara, what if your contributions on this forum are actually the most inspiring and valued of all? I hope you will reconsider. Like Bradly said we are brothers and sisters, and like in all families, things can get rough. Perhaps just taking a break will do the trick like it has for me several times. I want you to know that for me personally it’s the loving disposition you express prayerfully all the time that has brought me through some of those daily moments when after reading your posts, I got up and got new motivation for tackling the drudgery of the day. Thank you!
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