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Posts
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When I asked the question, “Does potential evil ever end?” I was thinking of this quote:
p1458:3 132:2.6 As you ascend the universe scale of creature development, you will find increasing goodness and diminishing evil in perfect accordance with your capacity for goodness-experience and truth-discernment. The ability to entertain error or experience evil will not be fully lost until the ascending human soul achieves final spirit levels.
What do you suppose they mean by “final spirit levels”?
What do you suppose they mean by “final spirit levels”?
I was thinking of the seventh jubilee. (27:7:8) But here is one about the impossibility of the emergence of even the concept of potential evil by virtue of the finality of choice for goodness, etc.
132:3:8 Spiritual evolution is an experience of the increasing and voluntary choice of goodness attended by an equal and progressive diminution of the possibility of evil. With the attainment of finality of choice for goodness and of completed capacity for truth appreciation, there comes into existence a perfection of beauty and holiness whose righteousness eternally inhibits the possibility of the emergence of even the concept of potential evil. Such a God-knowing soul casts no shadow of doubting evil when functioning on such a high spirit level of divine goodness.The earliest spirit level is fusion with one’s TA and surety of survival, never-ending life.40:8:1 While practically all surviving mortals are fused with their Adjusters on one of the mansion worlds or immediately upon their arrival on the higher morontia spheres, there are certain cases of delayed fusion, some not experiencing this final surety of survival until they reach the last educational worlds of the universe headquarters; and a few of these mortal candidates for never-ending life utterly fail to attain identity fusion with their faithful Adjusters.109:3:4 On worlds such as Urantia (the series three group) there is a real betrothal with the divine gifts, a life and death engagement. If you survive, there is to be an eternal union, an everlasting fusion, the making of man and Adjuster one being.110:1:6 Today you are passing through the period of the courtship of your Adjuster; and if you only prove faithful to the trust reposed in you by the divine spirit who seeks your mind and soul in eternal union, there will eventually ensue that morontia oneness, that supernal harmony, that cosmic co-ordination, that divine attunement, that celestial fusion, that never-ending blending of identity, that oneness of being which is so perfect and final that even the most experienced personalities can never segregate or recognize as separate identities the fusion partners — mortal man and divine Adjuster.You get a new name too, and choose your career path.47:8:5 Immediately upon the confirmation of Adjuster fusion the new morontia being is introduced to his fellows for the first time by his new name and is granted the forty days of spiritual retirement from all routine activities wherein to commune with himself and to choose some one of the optional routes to Havona and to select from the differential techniques of Paradise attainment.I think final levels have to do with jubilees beyond adjuster fusion. I think fusion, when the survival decisions are made, confers immunity from evil.112:7:14 With Adjuster fusion the Universal Father has completed his promise of the gift of himself to his material creatures; he has fulfilled the promise, and consummated the plan, of the eternal bestowal of divinity upon humanity. Now begins the human attempt to realize and to actualize the limitless possibilities that are inherent in the supernal partnership with God which has thus factualized.112:7:6 On the evolutionary worlds, selfhood is material; it is a thing in the universe and as such is subject to the laws of material existence. It is a fact in time and is responsive to the vicissitudes thereof. Survival decisions must here be formulated. In the morontia state the self has become a new and more enduring universe reality, and its continuing growth is predicated on its increasing attunement to the mind and spirit circuits of the universes. Survival decisions are now being confirmed. When the self attains the spiritual level, it has become a secure value in the universe, and this new value is predicated upon the fact that survival decisions have been made, which fact has been witnessed by eternal fusion with the Thought Adjuster. And having achieved the status of a true universe value, the creature becomes liberated in potential for the seeking of the highest universe value — God.There appears to be seven jubilees up until the time we become finaliters. Then there is a whole new set of jubilees, the jubilees of eternity. But is the seventh stage in the following quote the final stage of the jubilees of eternity? It would seem so. Are there seven more jubilees after that? They don’t mention it, but I suppose it goes on forever.
19:2.5 The Perfectors of Wisdom will always require this complement of experiential wisdom for the completion of their administrative sagacity. But it has been postulated that a high and hitherto unattained level of wisdom may possibly be achieved by the Paradise finaliters after they are sometime inducted into the seventh stage of spirit existence. If this inference is correct, then would such perfected beings of evolutionary ascent undoubtedly become the most effective universe administrators ever to be known in all creation. I believe that such is the high destiny of finaliters.
It does appear that gains in experiential wisdom keep happening, but I’m wondering if the presence of potential evil is necessary at the seventh jubilee of eternity. I would think not, but it’s just a guess. If evil is a synonym for incomplete, then I can see where it would exist. I suppose the meaning of evil changes in some fashion as we progress through eternity.
130:4.11 Error (evil) is not an actual universe quality; it is simply the observation of a relativity in the relatedness of the imperfection of the incomplete finite to the ascending levels of the Supreme and Ultimate.
. . . but I’m wondering if the presence of potential evil is necessary at the seventh jubilee of eternity. I would think not. . . .
I think potential evil is limited to the superuniverse level. We have the time lag of mercy and the time lag of justice in these seven superuniverses. I don’t know if any of them have reached the final stage of light and life. God the Supreme is actualizing. I think potential evil remains a contrasting choice of beings in time and space until the Supreme is fully existent. In Havona evil (error) does not exist, because Havona natives and pilgrims do not transgress the will of Deity.
14:2:9 Havona is a spiritually perfect and physically stable universe. The control and balanced stability of the central universe appear to be perfect. Everything physical or spiritual is perfectly predictable, but mind phenomena and personality volition are not. We do infer that sin can be reckoned as impossible of occurrence, but we do this on the ground that the native freewill creatures of Havona have never been guilty of transgressing the will of Deity. Through all eternity these supernal beings have been consistently loyal to the Eternals of Days. Neither has sin appeared in any creature who has entered Havona as a pilgrim. There has never been an instance of misconduct by any creature of any group of personalities ever created in, or admitted to, the central Havona universe. So perfect and so divine are the methods and means of selection in the universes of time that never in the records of Havona has an error occurred; no mistakes have ever been made; no ascendant soul has ever been prematurely admitted to the central universe.The seventh jubilee way, way beyond the jubilee marking the achievement to advance to Havona.30:4:27 The journey from the superuniverse headquarters to the Havona receiving spheres is always made alone. From now on no more class or group instruction will be administered. You are through with the technical and administrative training of the evolutionary worlds of time and space. Now begins your personal education, your individual spiritual training. From first to last, throughout all Havona, the instruction is personal and threefold in nature: intellectual, spiritual, and experiential.Mara wrote: I think potential evil remains a contrasting choice of beings in time and space until the Supreme is fully existent.That may be true, but the quote I offered says evil (error) is an observation of the relativity of relatedness all the way past the Supreme to the Ultimate.
130:4.11 Error (evil) is not an actual universe quality; it is simply the observation of a relativity in the relatedness of the imperfection of the incomplete finite to the ascending levels of the Supreme and Ultimate.
Mara wrote: In Havona evil (error) does not exist, because Havona natives and pilgrims do not transgress the will of Deity.But Havona is not part of experiential reality. The Supreme and the Ultimate are experiential which means that they participate in the relativity of relatedness which is where evil (error) is observed according to the above quote.
The seventh jubilee way, way beyond the jubilee marking the achievement to advance to Havona.
Right, the first seven jubilees get us to the status of finaliters. After that, we start a new set of seven jubilees, the jubilees of eternity. And I’m guessing that it is at the end of this second set of jubilees that the ability to entertain error will be lost. It seems to me that the seventh jubilee of the second set of jubilees will be the final spirit levels described in the next quote.
p1458:3 132:2.6 As you ascend the universe scale of creature development, you will find increasing goodness and diminishing evil in perfect accordance with your capacity for goodness-experience and truth-discernment. The ability to entertain error or experience evil will not be fully lost until the ascending human soul achieves final spirit levels.
The quote says “entertain” error. It doesn’t say “commit” error. Entertain error means to think about it as a potential reality when contemplating a choice. Error would have to be redefined as the least best way to do something on the level of experiential reality. It wouldn’t necessarily be against God’s will though. As we progress in experience and wisdom, even after becoming finaliters, we will need to make choices. Choices between what? At that point we will always be doing God’s will, so there must be good, better and best ways of doing God’s will according to the experience we’re in. Even after achieving the Supreme, there is another level of experience to evolve. Experience always requires choices or there would be no need for free will.
That’s just my guess on how it will go though. I can’t imagine eternity without choices and one wonders what will be involved in those choices. How much leeway for choice is available to someone who always does God’s will? How will one’s mind on that level process options? I guess we won’t really know until we get there.
The Supreme and the Ultimate are experiential which means that they participate in the relativity of relatedness which is where evil (error) is observed according to the above quote.
I certainly don’t want to blunder in oversimplifications about what the book says. I could be wrong, but I don’t think the Supreme and Ultimate “participate” in something that is not an actual universe quality – evil (error). Surely they observe the relativity of relatedness owing to the incompleteness and imperfections of the finite universes in this universe age.
132:2:10 The possibility of evil is necessary to moral choosing, but not the actuality thereof. A shadow is only relatively real. Actual evil is not necessary as a personal experience. Potential evil acts equally well as a decision stimulus in the realms of moral progress on the lower levels of spiritual development. Evil becomes a reality of personal experience only when a moral mind makes evil its choice.On a personal level, decisions to reject sophistries and to choose that which is of the highest value add to the growth of the Supreme. Decisions, decisions, decisions. I think the Supreme Being harvests the wheat, not the tares (130:1:6) in maximizing and consummating finite reality into a meaningful whole.118:9:9 God the Supreme is the personalization of all universe experience, the focalization of all finite evolution, the maximation of all creature reality, the consummation of cosmic wisdom, the embodiment of the harmonious beauties of the galaxies of time, the truth of cosmic mind meanings, and the goodness of supreme spirit values. And God the Supreme will, in the eternal future, synthesize these manifold finite diversities into one experientially meaningful whole, even as they are now existentially united on absolute levels in the Paradise Trinity.117:3:1 The cosmic reality variously designated as the Supreme Being, God the Supreme, and the Almighty Supreme, is the complex and universal synthesis of the emerging phases of all finite realities. The far-flung diversification of eternal energy, divine spirit, and universal mind attains finite culmination in the evolution of the Supreme, who is the sum total of all finite growth, self-realized on deity levels of finite maximum completion.I think evil (error) disappear from the lexicon in the remote future. This is pure conjecture on my part. I took a gigantic leap in my mind to the remotest of the remote future to a time of the perfection and completeness of the grand universe, when, according to a Mighty Messenger, “the possibilities for disharmony, maladjustment, and misadaptation will be eventually exhausted in the superuniverses.”117:7:13 The present goal of the superuniverses is to become, as they are and within their potentials, perfect, even as is Havona. This perfection pertains to physical and spiritual attainment, even to administrative, governmental, and fraternal development. It is believed that, in the ages to come, the possibilities for disharmony, maladjustment, and misadaptation will be eventually exhausted in the superuniverses. The energy circuits will be in perfect balance and in complete subjugation to mind, while spirit, in the presence of personality, will have achieved the dominance of mind.Maybe even the word “choice” will disappear from the lexicon in those remote times. Maybe in its place will be the word creativity, or true liberty – manifestations of the will of God, as lived by the beings of the future.Mara wrote: I certainly don’t want to blunder in oversimplifications about what the book says. I could be wrong, but I don’t think the Supreme and Ultimate “participate” in something that is not an actual universe quality – evil (error).That’s not what I said. I’m pretty sure I said they participate in the relativity of relatedness, which is another way to say “experience”. But I do understand what you’re getting at.
I can’t imagine free choice will ever go away. God himself is a God of infinite volition, and we are made in his image. I doubt he will ever take it away. I think it is a permanent feature of personality. If there’s no free will, there’s no personality. That’s the way I see it.
9:0.2 The Father is infinite in love and volition, in spiritual thought and purpose; he is the universal upholder. The Son is infinite in wisdom and truth, in spiritual expression and interpretation; he is the universal revealer.
10:3.6 We observe that the Father has divested himself of all direct manifestations of absoluteness except absolute fatherhood and absolute volition. We do not know whether volition is an inalienable attribute of the Father; we can only observe that he did not divest himself of volition. Such infinity of will must have been eternally inherent in the First Source and Center.
107:7.5 Throughout a universe of created beings and nonpersonal energies we do not observe will, volition, choice, and love manifested apart from personality.
16:8.5 Creature personality is distinguished by two self-manifesting and characteristic phenomena of mortal reactive behavior: self-consciousness and associated relative free will.
Hi everyone,
Maybe on those “normal” worlds in a system the people there have similar faith opportunities as we have. Mara post: 21548
On 619 inhabited worlds, 37 fall deceived in Satania system.
On those disloyals worlds … how much have a double failure or 7 uncommon assets?
114:7.15 The loyal inhabited worlds of Satania are not governed as is Urantia.
114:0.4 (1250.4) Urantia is not without proper and effective supervision from the system, constellation, and universe rulers. But the planetary government is unlike that of any other world in the Satania system, even in all Nebadon. This uniqueness in your plan of supervision is due to a number of unusual circumstances:
114:0.5(1250.5) 1. The life modification status of Urantia.
114:0.6(1250.6) 2. The exigencies of the Lucifer rebellion.
114:0.7(1250.7) 3. The disruptions of the Adamic default.
114:0.8(1250.8) 4. The irregularities growing out of the fact that Urantia was one of the bestowal worlds of the Universe Sovereign. Michael of Nebadon is the Planetary Prince of Urantia.
114:0.9(1250.9) 5. The special function of the twenty-four planetary directors.
114:0.10(1250.10) 6. The location on the planet of an archangels’ circuit.
114:0.11(1250.11) 7. The more recent designation of the onetime incarnated Machiventa Melchizedek as vicegerent Planetary Prince.
Mara, looking at those unusual circumstances is set apart at least our planet among all the 619 inhabited planets. Concerning “similar faith opportunities” it didn’t apply to us. Our faith opportunities imply a very rare juncture. As a ”vale of soul making” (149:5.5)like any other worlds, we have a adding potential “vale of Agondonters soul making”
Affection,
André
Has the Lucifer rebellion been adjudicated? Mara
I do not know Mara. What I know is, the revelators were contains about what could be said. Those legitimate human concern questions can get our attention superficially from time to time schmoozing and get back to work. It is in our nature (influence of adjuvats) to inquire, to be curious.
We have all the work arounds we need …posted 21545 • Bonita
Has the Lucifer rebellion been adjudicated?
No. But a few people think it has been adjudicated. What do you think?As I had responded previously, I must apologize for having interrupted my interaction but, on thinking about your statement above, I thought that it would be interesting to look at how the Urantia Book presenters viewed the effect of the Rebellion.
The following section entitled “The Triumph of Love” contains much information which can be understood as beneficial to the overall information presented regarding the Rebellion and might indicate that the benefits overcame the cause, which is not well represented elsewhere in the UB.
6. The Triumph of Love
(618.4) 54:6.1 Whatever the difficulties evolutionary mortals may encounter in their efforts to understand the Lucifer rebellion, it should be clear to all reflective thinkers that the technique of dealing with the rebels is a vindication of divine love. The loving mercy extended to the rebels does seem to have involved many innocent beings in trials and tribulations, but all these distraught personalities may securely depend upon the all-wise Judges to adjudicate their destinies in mercy as well as justice.
It might be implied from the previous narration that the Rebellion is still being adjudicated?
(618.5) 54:6.2 In all their dealings with intelligent beings, both the Creator Son and his Paradise Father are love dominated. It is impossible to comprehend many phases of the attitude of the universe rulers toward rebels and rebellion — sin and sinners — unless it be remembered that God as a Father takes precedence over all other phases of Deity manifestation in all the dealings of divinity with humanity. It should also be recalled that the Paradise Creator Sons are all mercy motivated.
(618.6) 54:6.3 If an affectionate father of a large family chooses to show mercy to one of his children guilty of grievous wrongdoing, it may well be that the extension of mercy to this misbehaving child will work a temporary hardship upon all the other and well-behaved children. Such eventualities are inevitable; such a risk is inseparable from the reality situation of having a loving parent and of being a member of a family group. Each member of a family profits by the righteous conduct of every other member; likewise must each member suffer the immediate time-consequences of the misconduct of every other member. Families, groups, nations, races, worlds, systems, constellations, and universes are relationships of association which possess individuality; and therefore does every member of any such group, large or small, reap the benefits and suffer the consequences of the rightdoing and the wrongdoing of all other members of the group concerned.
(619.1) 54:6.4 But one thing should be made clear: If you are made to suffer the evil consequences of the sin of some member of your family, some fellow citizen or fellow mortal, even rebellion in the system or elsewhere — no matter what you may have to endure because of the wrongdoing of your associates, fellows, or superiors — you may rest secure in the eternal assurance that such tribulations are transient afflictions. None of these fraternal consequences of misbehavior in the group can ever jeopardize your eternal prospects or in the least degree deprive you of your divine right of Paradise ascension and God attainment.
(619.2) 54:6.5 And there is compensation for these trials, delays, and disappointments which invariably accompany the sin of rebellion. Of the many valuable repercussions of the Lucifer rebellion which might be named, I will only call attention to the enhanced careers of those mortal ascenders, the Jerusem citizens, who, by withstanding the sophistries of sin, placed themselves in line for becoming future Mighty Messengers, fellows of my own order. Every being who stood the test of that evil episode thereby immediately advanced his administrative status and enhanced his spiritual worth.
I highlighted the word “sophistries” because in most cases its definition and usage in the UB seems to be fixed by many as “a subtle, tricky, superficially plausible, but generally fallacious method of reasoning.” And, in general they would be correct but, when one looks at the root of the word “Sophist”, one may find that it encompasses a larger meaning which includes “wisdom” and “skill” or a method of applying a philosophy.
“Word Origin and History for sophistry:”
“’specious but fallacious reasoning,’ mid-14c., from Old French sophistrie (Modern French sophisterie), from Medieval Latin sophistria, from Latin sophista, sophistes (see sophist ). ‘Sophistry applies to reasoning as sophism to a single argument’”And the Etymology of “Sophist”, is as follows:
The Greek σοφός (sophos), related to the noun σοφία (sophia), had the meaning “skilled” or “wise” since the time of the poet Homer and originally was used to describe anyone with expertise in a specific domain of knowledge or craft. For example, a charioteer, a sculptor or a warrior could be described as sophoi in their occupations. Gradually, however, the word also came to denote general wisdom and especially wisdom about human affairs (for example, in politics, ethics, or household management). This was the meaning ascribed to the Greek Seven Sages of 7th and 6th century BC (like Solon and Thales), and it was the meaning that appeared in the histories of Herodotus. Richard Martin refers to the seven sages as “performers of political poetry.”
From the word σοφός (sophos) is derived the verb σοφίζω (sophizo), which means “to instruct or make learned,” but which in the passive voice means “to become or be wise,” or “to be clever or skilled in a thing.” In turn, from this verb is derived the noun σοφιστής (sophistes), which originally meant “a master of one’s craft” but later came to mean “a prudent man” or “wise man.” The word for “sophist” in various languages comes from sophistes.
(619.3) 54:6.6 At first the Lucifer upheaval appeared to be an unmitigated calamity to the system and to the universe. Gradually benefits began to accrue. With the passing of twenty-five thousand years of system time (twenty thousand years of Urantia time), the Melchizedeks began to teach that the good resulting from Lucifer’s folly had come to equal the evil incurred. The sum of evil had by that time become almost stationary, continuing to increase only on certain isolated worlds, while the beneficial repercussions continued to multiply and extend out through the universe and superuniverse, even to Havona. The Melchizedeks now teach that the good resulting from the Satania rebellion is more than a thousand times the sum of all the evil.
So, if we take what has been presented above, how can we look at the Rebellion as a failure, if its intended purpose yielded such good results?
(619.4) 54:6.7 But such an extraordinary and beneficent harvest of wrongdoing could only be brought about by the wise, divine, and merciful attitude of all of Lucifer’s superiors, extending from the Constellation Fathers on Edentia to the Universal Father on Paradise. The passing of time has enhanced the consequential good to be derived from the Lucifer folly; and since the evil to be penalized was quite fully developed within a comparatively short time, it is apparent that the all-wise and farseeing universe rulers would be certain to extend the time in which to reap increasingly beneficial results. Regardless of the many additional reasons for delaying the apprehension and adjudication of the Satania rebels, this one gain would have been enough to explain why these sinners were not sooner interned, and why they have not been adjudicated and destroyed.
From the previous narration, can one surmise that if the Rebellion was not started or planned, as it was, could the same results be produced in the same time frame or span?
(619.5) 54:6.8 Shortsighted and time-bound mortal minds should be slow to criticize the time delays of the farseeing and all-wise administrators of universe affairs.
(620.1) 54:6.9 One error of human thinking respecting these problems consists in the idea that all evolutionary mortals on an evolving planet would choose to enter upon the Paradise career if sin had not cursed their world. The ability to decline survival does not date from the times of the Lucifer rebellion. Mortal man has always possessed the endowment of freewill choice regarding the Paradise career.
(620.2) 54:6.10 As you ascend in the survival experience, you will broaden your universe concepts and extend your horizon of meanings and values; and thus will you be able the better to understand why such beings as Lucifer and Satan are permitted to continue in rebellion. You will also better comprehend how ultimate (if not immediate) good can be derived from time-limited evil. After you attain Paradise, you will really be enlightened and comforted when you listen to the superaphic philosophers discuss and explain these profound problems of universe adjustment. But even then, I doubt that you will be fully satisfied in your own minds. At least I was not even when I had thus attained the acme of universe philosophy. I did not achieve a full comprehension of these complexities until after I had been assigned to administrative duties in the superuniverse, where by actual experience I have acquired conceptual capacity adequate for the comprehension of such many-sided problems in cosmic equity and spiritual philosophy. As you ascend Paradiseward, you will increasingly learn that many problematic features of universe administration can only be comprehended subsequent to the acquirement of increased experiential capacity and to the achievement of enhanced spiritual insight. Cosmic wisdom is essential to the understanding of cosmic situations.
(620.3) 54:6.11 [Presented by a Mighty Messenger of experiential survival in the first system rebellion in the universes of time now attached to the superuniverse government of Orvonton and acting in this matter by request of Gabriel of Salvington.]
. . . to look at how the Urantia Book presenters viewed the effect of the Rebellion.
Thanks. You did say in an earlier post you did not think the rebellion had been adjudicated, but you deleted those posts so I can’t pull out your exact comments on the subject. “The shadow of a hair’s turning, premeditated for an untrue purpose, the slightest twisting or perversion of that which is principle — these constitute falseness.” Lucifer attempted to do the nondoable. (54:2:3) “Supreme justice can act instantly when not restrained by divine mercy.” (54:4:6)
54:3:2 Although conscious and wholehearted identification with evil (sin) is the equivalent of nonexistence (annihilation), there must always intervene between the time of such personal identification with sin and the execution of the penalty — the automatic result of such a willful embrace of evil — a period of time of sufficient length to allow for such an adjudication of such an individual’s universe status as will prove entirely satisfactory to all related universe personalities, and which will be so fair and just as to win the approval of the sinner himself.It is very hard to imagine an individual, such as Lucifer, awaiting adjudication by the courts of the Ancients of Days being won over and approving of the final results for which so many in our local universe are waiting!66:8:7 And now this rebel of the realm, shorn of all power to harm his former subjects, awaits the final adjudication, by the Uversa Ancients of Days, of all who participated in the Lucifer rebellion.
You did say in an earlier post you did not think the rebellion had been adjudicated, [. . .]
To some degree that is correct. It would seem that the adjudication process is still going on but, are you thinking that this process is only for the leaders of the Rebellion or all of those who had and are participating?
Lucifer attempted to do the nondoable.
Based on the UB narrative only, it really does not go into what was “nondoable”, but I have my own ideas as to what that was. Nevertheless, if one assumes that the good that came out of the rebellion outweighed the sin, which was allowed to be presented might indicate, that if the underlying reason for the rebellion was to achieve the current results as indicated, it could also be assumed that the attempt to do the “nondoable” succeeded? This all is relevant to understand what was done and why it was thought to be necessary that it be attempted?
It is very hard to imagine an individual, such as Lucifer, awaiting adjudication by the courts of the Ancients of Days being won over and approving of the final results for which so many in our local universe are waiting!
Again, if one is awaiting adjudication for something which they have already been presented as being guilty, it would also be necessary to know exactly what the charges are that they were assumed to be guilty. In other areas where I attempted to present a defense for those who took part in the rebellion as opposed to just taking the prosecutions point of view as final, where which it was my argument that everyone was entitled to a defense, I was met with opposition and no argument or evidence to prove the prosecutions case.
Using the same premise, as was presented in my previous post, where mercy had been applied I took it upon myself to assume that everyone is innocent until proven guilty. If Lucifer et all, were found guilty, and no other facts have been presented other then their exercising Free Will, then one could assume that that was what they were found guilty of? If this is the case then we as mortals, here on Urantia, also having free will, would be found guilty if we chose not to choose but from one choice given?
On another Forum, in a private section, I was badgered to formally present an oath of allegiance to Michael. Regardless of my argument that I had the free will right to only present my allegiance to my universal Father, I was ridiculed for implying that if Immanuel did not do so, then I also have that right. Nevertheless, outside of that private section of the forum, I was attacted by admin, to perform certain things which were actually against policy and had I had done so, would have lost my self-respect which was the underlying intention. Ultimately, I was sanctioned from that forum.
Now if this is the same type of, sin which those who partook in the rebellion were subject too, then it would seem that there was something going on back then, when the rebellion was presented, that is not being presented in the UB? Where to some degree, from my understanding of the text, that there is little real evidence available, specifically from the Urantia involvement that has been presented to even hold a fair trial for anyone? Even though the rebellion might be over, the adjudication is still ongoing and not just for the leaders of the rebellion.
So, your last statement above, regarding those who are waiting in the local universe, concerns me less than those who are waiting here on Urantia. It would also seem Urantia is a key world which carries more weight than other worlds to be finally adjudicated, if for no other reason than Michael having chosen Urantia for his final bestowal?
MidiChlorian,
- it really does not go into what was “nondoable”
- are you thinking that this process is only for the leaders of the Rebellion or all of those who had and are participating?
- if the underlying reason for the rebellion was to achieve the current results as indicated, it could also be assumed that the attempt to do the “nondoable” succeeded
Although being a Son of God, I have not infused science, even less in the field which preoccupies some here, Lucifer’s rebellion.Personally, I can’t stand all those theories implying lies, doubts and questioning a hidden agenda from Our Father.When TUB tells me Lucifer’s folly was the attempt to do the nondoable 54:2.3for me it’s enough.Anything said by you or others humans, celestial entities contrary to this is doomed. (period)Brother, lately I reach to you on behalf of brotherhood. In this brotherhood MidiChlorian you must consider there is some who are rebels and pursuit “non-existential” realities.Midi says above: “So, if we take what has been presented above, how can we look at the Rebellion as a failure, if its intended purpose yielded such good results?”
Me here: I am curious as to your meaning by “intended purpose”. You must mean Lucifer’s purpose? Since we are told that the rebellion originated in Lucifer’s mind (per many quotes already posted), his purpose was clearly presented as well – to deny the existence of God and declare himself Lord of Satania in contradiction to Michael’s (and Father’s) will and declare false liberty. I think we can demonstrate by text that the purpose of Michael and God and throughout all the universe of universes was subverted, distorted, denied, and openly defied by Lucifer…this is clearly presented….nothing obscure or otherwise confusing about the “purpose” of the Manifesto.
53:4.1 (604.3) The Lucifer manifesto was issued at the annual conclave of Satania on the sea of glass, in the presence of the assembled hosts of Jerusem, on the last day of the year, about two hundred thousand years ago, Urantia time. Satan proclaimed that worship could be accorded the universal forces — physical, intellectual, and spiritual — but that allegiance could be acknowledged only to the actual and present ruler, Lucifer, the “friend of men and angels” and the “God of liberty.”
53:4.2 (604.4) Self-assertion was the battle cry of the Lucifer rebellion.
Midi says above: “Again, if one is awaiting adjudication for something which they have already been presented as being guilty, it would also be necessary to know exactly what the charges are that they were assumed to be guilty. In other areas where I attempted to present a defense for those who took part in the rebellion as opposed to just taking the prosecutions point of view as final, where which it was my argument that everyone was entitled to a defense, I was met with opposition and no argument or evidence to prove the prosecutions case.
Using the same premise, as was presented in my previous post, where mercy had been applied I took it upon myself to assume that everyone is innocent until proven guilty. If Lucifer et all, were found guilty, and no other facts have been presented other then their exercising Free Will, then one could assume that that was what they were found guilty of? If this is the case then we as mortals, here on Urantia, also having free will, would be found guilty if we chose not to choose but from one choice given?”
Me here: This too has been thoroughly and previously addressed. There is no question as to guilt or innocence for those who are charged with adjudication and the extension or end of mercy credits. To deny reality and to persist in doing so has an inevitable result – one might call it an eventuation of such free will choice – its called irrelevancy and eventual self erasure/annihilation. The “judgement” is only about the ability of the rebels and their willingness to re-embrace reality or the truth, beauty, and goodness expressions of love for others rather than of self.
The adjudicators await that time to come when all minds affected/infected by rebellion have completely and finally chosen for themselves either reality or non-reality and also that time when there is no sympathy for the “purpose” or the “perpetrators” of rebellion and their cause. I wonder if Midi’s sympathy keeps the time for adjudication open awhile longer? But we are assured of the “guilt” of the rebel leaders….clearly so.
Perhaps a more detailed discussion of true and false liberty might be helpful? There is never one “choice”. We are not automatons or slaves. But there is only one reality for all who make choices – the reality of love and service. The more we love others and serve with love, the more we embrace reality. The more we love self and serve self, the more we embrace unreality. We choose our destiny thusly. It seems wonderfully fair, just, and functional to me. But I lack the fear and paranoia which delivers such doubts about God and his friendly universe…which helps. We might also discuss prejudice (the loyalty to and love of one’s opinions and perspective – a mind poison) and spiritual pride.
And the Master said: “… I would sternly warn you against the subtleties of pride, spiritual pride. If you could understand the downfall of Lucifer, the iniquitous one, you would solemnly shun all forms of spiritual pride.”
160:1.13 (1774.5) Prejudice blinds the soul to the recognition of truth, and prejudice can be removed only by the sincere devotion of the soul to the adoration of a cause that is all-embracing and all-inclusive of one’s fellow men. Prejudice is inseparably linked to selfishness. Prejudice can be eliminated only by the abandonment of self-seeking and by substituting therefor the quest of the satisfaction of the service of a cause that is not only greater than self, but one that is even greater than all humanity — the search for God, the attainment of divinity. The evidence of maturity of personality consists in the transformation of human desire so that it constantly seeks for the realization of those values which are highest and most divinely real.
= )
Bradly wrote: I wonder if Midi’s sympathy keeps the time for adjudication open awhile longer?My passions have been aroused! Thank you, thank you, thank you for verbalizing this thought I have been thinking for a very long time. Sympathy for sin! Of course! There are folks here on our isolated planet who still sympathize with Lucifer and some of them are infiltrating the TUB community because they know TUB was sanctioned by Michael, and they just can’t stand anything sanctioned by Michael.
53:8:2 Subsequent to their effort to corrupt Michael when in the bestowal flesh, all sympathy for Lucifer and Satan has perished throughout all Satania, that is, outside the isolated worlds of sin.
As long as there are personalities desirous of living under the Lucifer Manifesto, it will continue. The universe allows for every opportunity of fulfillment and if a person’s most cherished desire can only be satisfied with self-destruction, then it will be.
44:8.4 But every human being should remember: Many ambitions to excel which tantalize mortals in the flesh will not persist with these same mortals in the morontia and spirit careers. The ascending morontians learn to socialize their former purely selfish longings and egoistic ambitions. Nevertheless, those things which you so earnestly longed to do on earth and which circumstances so persistently denied you, if, after acquiring true mota insight in the morontia career, you still desire to do, then will you most certainly be granted every opportunity fully to satisfy your long-cherished desires.
And because we humans have such a slippery hold on reality, enormous amounts of time is given for us to gain traction. As long as there are minds desiring to be twisted by the Lucifer Manifesto it will continue to exist. Once all final decisions are made it will dissolve and disappear, because it is not real. In the meantime, we have to put up with rebellion enthusiasts who keep it alive. But it is not alive and well, that is for sure. It is alive and holding on with just a thread . . . not well at all . . . but sick and dying.
And why is it dying? Because since Michael became sovereign, everything that cannot be spiritualized is being destroyed. Knowing this, the rebellion lovers are adamantly against anything Michael does. Of course they would be. They are fighting for what they think is their life, the anti-reality they have mistaken for reality. It won’t be long before we can say good-bye to this poppycock. It will die. Yay! There’s no question about it, and that is something I am supremely passionate about. Can’t wait.
p241:1 21:5.4 The elevation of a sevenfold bestowal Son to the unquestioned sovereignty of his universe means the beginning of the end of agelong uncertainty and relative confusion. Subsequent to this event, that which cannot be sometime spiritualized will eventually be disorganized; that which cannot be sometime co-ordinated with cosmic reality will eventually be destroyed. When the provisions of endless mercy and nameless patience have been exhausted in an effort to win the loyalty and devotion of the will creatures of the realms, justice and righteousness will prevail. That which mercy cannot rehabilitate justice will eventually annihilate.
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