Who Knows "The Truth"? What is Truth? Where is Truth Found?

[Bonita]

Rick Warren wrote:

but where you are, as you are, in spirit and in truth….” (2053:4) 193:1.2 What does this mean?

The easiest way to think about this is: “in the Holy Spirit and in the Spirit of Truth”.  The two are together in the soul, the place where the Adjuster communicates worship to God the Father via the personality circuit.  It’s a another way to say “the soul”.

5:3.7-8 Sincere worship connotes the mobilization of all the powers of the human personality under the dominance of the evolving soul and subject to the divine directionization of the associated Thought Adjuster. The mind of material limitations can never become highly conscious of the real significance of true worship. Man’s realization of the reality of the worship experience is chiefly determined by the developmental status of his evolving immortal soul. The spiritual growth of the soul takes place wholly independently of the intellectual self-consciousness.

The worship experience consists in the sublime attempt of the betrothed Adjuster to communicate to the divine Father the inexpressible longings and the unutterable aspirations of the human soul–the conjoint creation of the God-seeking mortal mind and the God-revealing immortal Adjuster. Worship is, therefore, the act of the material mind’s assenting to the attempt of its spiritualizing self, under the guidance of the associated spirit, to communicate with God as a faith son of the Universal Father. The mortal mind consents to worship; the immortal soul craves and initiates worship; the divine Adjuster presence conducts such worship in behalf of the mortal mind and the evolving immortal soul. True worship, in the last analysis, becomes an experience realized on four cosmic levels: the intellectual, the morontial, the spiritual, and the personal–the consciousness of mind, soul, and spirit, and their unification in personality.

5:3.2 But worship is undoubtedly encircuited and dispatched to the person of the Creator by the function of the Father’s personality circuit.

[Bonita]

Rick Warren wrote: Thanks for the feast of questions! Some do relate directly to this thread: “Where is the Michael’s personality and how does it relate to the Spirit of Truth? Are the words fact and reality synonymous?  Are facts and truth the same type of reality? Are facts ever a revelation? Can fact consciousness lead to truth consciousness?  Is there such a thing as knowledge of truth, or is truth always experienced? What role does the Holy Spirit play in truth experience.”

Are facts and truth the same type of reality?

I think we already covered this, but just to be thorough, the answer is no.  Facts are material reality, truth is spiritual reality.  The two get married in intellectual or mindal or psychic reality and make a living with all of it. 

[Bonita]

Rick Warren wrote: Thanks for the feast of questions! Some do relate directly to this thread: “Where is the Michael’s personality and how does it relate to the Spirit of Truth? Are the words fact and reality synonymous?  Are facts and truth the same type of reality? Are facts ever a revelation? Can fact consciousness lead to truth consciousness?  Is there such a thing as knowledge of truth, or is truth always experienced? What role does the Holy Spirit play in truth experience.”

Are facts ever a revelation?

I think facts can be revealed, as they are in TUB, but I don’t think that constitutes a revelation.  There’s a difference.  Revelation is defined as a spiritual phenomenon.  Facts are not spiritual phenomenona, they’re material phenomenona, they are things.

101:4.5 Truth may be but relatively inspired, even though revelation is invariably a spiritual phenomenon.

From what I gather, revelation has more to do with truth than fact.  There seems to be a difference between fact consciousness and the consciousness of true reality, which is what revelation produces.  Fact consciousness is an adjutant level of material mind; it’s about knowledge. Revelation occurs in the soul, the morontia level of mind, because it is spiritual and requires the Adjuster.

Nevertheless, facts are necessary for applying revelation to the demands of everyday living.  It is a great circle of reality, each level necessary for the other, but always moving in an expansive fashion of progress toward higher levels of reality and personality realization.  It’s all part of the seven psychic circles of cosmic growth.

111:6.7 The expansion of material knowledge permits a greater intellectual appreciation of the meanings of ideas and the values of ideals. A human being can find truth in his inner experience, but he needs a clear knowledge of facts to apply his personal discovery of truth to the ruthlessly practical demands of everyday life.

102:3.5 Science, knowledge, leads to fact consciousness; religion, experience, leads to value consciousness; philosophy, wisdom, leads to co-ordinate consciousness; revelation (the substitute for morontia mota) leads to the consciousness of true reality; while the co-ordination of the consciousness of fact, value, and true reality constitutes awareness of personality reality, maximum of being, together with the belief in the possibility of the survival of that very personality.

[Bonita]

Nigel Nunn wrote:What would be great (and much appreciated!) is if you could help rewrite my confused paragraph spanning pages 3 and 4 of the pdf attached to post 20361 above (please ignore if no time or interest). The paragraph in question: “Ok, this too is new. What’s even more surprising is how these intuitions, these “reality responses”, are made accessible to us. As local source and center of the “Nebadon variant of the Orvonton type of cosmic mind” (102.3, 9:4.3), our local universe mother, the Divine Minister of Salvington, complements Michael’s Spirit of Truth by serving as [ “spirit of …” ]; as local source of these three intuitions, she enables us not only to recognize (1) the facts of causality, (2) the facts of relative right and wrong, and (3) the facts of spirit values, but also to sense the meaning of all these facts (see 192:1, 16:6.5). As one level of her consciousness (the adjutants) fosters in us a capacity to believe, in her capacity as [“spirit of …”], she makes it possible for us to know, to discriminate fact from figment.”

Focusing now on this section of the above paragraph:

 . . . as local source of these three intuitions, she enables us not only to recognize (1) the facts of causality, (2) the facts of relative right and wrong, and (3) the facts of spirit values, but also to sense the meaning of all these facts (see 192:1, 16:6.5)

The phrases I find most troublesome are the following:

• the facts of causality
• the facts of relative right and wrong
• the facts of spirit values

I get the impression that you are using the word “fact” to indicate some level of certainty, but I don’t think it is a useful model since this is about a reflex intuition built into cosmic mind. Reality responds to it, not the other way around.  I doubt we are ever absolutely certain of this phenomenon on an intellectual level since it is not the mind that is responding, but rather reality responding to mind. This idea of certainty is really a topic for another post though.

Continuing on: If the cosmic recognition response is a reflex intuition discrimination between reality and non-reality, then wouldn’t it be more accurate to say:

• the reality of causation
• the reality of right and wrong
• the reality of spirit values

The words fact and reality are not interchangeable except perhaps on the level of causation where facts are real and non-facts are unreal.

• The causation reality response is designed to discriminate between fact and non-fact.
• The duty reality response is designed to discriminate between what is morally right and morally wrong.
• The worship reality response is designed to discriminate between what is value and what is not value.

The cosmic mind doesn’t really respond to what is real, it is really the other way around.  What is real responds to the gravity pull of the cosmic mind, and any deep thinking person recognizes this response of reality, what is real, to its own mind.  A thinking person can accept or reject this response at will. Rejection of the recognition of reality is evil, possibly even sinful if fully conscious. Likewise, an erroneously thinking person can chase after the unreal and go down rabbit holes.

To press this point further, I would ask what you mean by “the facts of relative right and wrong”.  Right and wrong, morality, is definitely relative, but facts are not.  I don’t think you can turn morality into a fact. Facts are fixed, unchanging, unyielding, forever the same.  Morality is never that way. It can’t be if it is to grow with the psyche in the cosmic circles of personality realization. Morality has to do with meaning and the purpose of this level of reality is to learn new meanings for old facts.  The facts don’t change, only their meanings.

101:1.4 Religion lives and prospers, then, not by sight and feeling, but rather by faith and insight. It consists not in the discovery of new facts or in the finding of a unique experience, but rather in the discovery of new and spiritual meanings in facts already well known to mankind.

48:4.18 Humor also functions to lessen the shock of the unexpected impact of fact or of truth, rigid unyielding fact and flexible ever-living truth.

2:7.2  Physical facts are fairly uniform, but truth is a living and flexible factor in the philosophy of the universe

Using the same logic, I don’t think the phrase “facts of spiritual values” is useful either.  Spiritual values are not rigid, unyielding and uniform facts, nor do I think they can be categorized, analyzed, itemized and compartmentalized as such.  Values must grow in meaning with personal religious experience.  Ultimate existential value may be uniform, but in the experiential worlds of time and space, value is a living experience.  It is felt.  Facts don’t feel, they are impersonal, they are things, they are just building blocks to create ideas with. And ideas lead to values.

Man begins with discovering facts (causation), then recognizes the meanings of facts (duty), and finally interprets their value (worship) before attempting to live them. This up and down escalator process keeps going round and round progressing to ever higher levels of cosmic consciousness, especially when the personality chooses to recognize the differential response of reality to the cosmic mind along the way. (This includes the spirit influences in the soul)  Our minds can discover all sorts of things or facts, but then they have to recognize if they are real or unreal before they can be interpreted, integrated and coordinated in a way that can be acted out, ultimately a function of the Spirit of Truth.  But the discovery process itself is an adjutant level of thinking, I’ll try to explain later.

111:3.6 Mind knows quantity, reality, meanings. But quality — values — is felt. That which feels is the mutual creation of mind, which knows, and the associated spirit, which reality-izes.

103:9.6 Reason introduces man to the world of facts, to things; wisdom introduces him to a world of truth, to relationships; faith initiates him into a world of divinity, spiritual experience.

118:5.3 Mortal consciousness proceeds from the fact, to the meaning, and then to the value. Creator consciousness proceeds from the thought-value, through the word-meaning, to the fact of action.

[Richard E Warren]

Bonita wrote:

Rick Warren wrote:

but where you are, as you are, in spirit and in truth….” (2053:4) 193:1.2 What does this mean?

The easiest way to think about this is: “in the Holy Spirit and in the Spirit of Truth”. The two are together in the soul, the place where the Adjuster communicates worship to God the Father via the personality circuit. It’s a another way to say “the soul”.

5:3.7-8 Sincere worship connotes the mobilization of all the powers of the human personality under the dominance of the evolving soul and subject to the divine directionization of the associated Thought Adjuster. The mind of material limitations can never become highly conscious of the real significance of true worship. Man’s realization of the reality of the worship experience is chiefly determined by the developmental status of his evolving immortal soul. The spiritual growth of the soul takes place wholly independently of the intellectual self-consciousness. The worship experience consists in the sublime attempt of the betrothed Adjuster to communicate to the divine Father the inexpressible longings and the unutterable aspirations of the human soul–the conjoint creation of the God-seeking mortal mind and the God-revealing immortal Adjuster. Worship is, therefore, the act of the material mind’s assenting to the attempt of its spiritualizing self, under the guidance of the associated spirit, to communicate with God as a faith son of the Universal Father. The mortal mind consents to worship; the immortal soul craves and initiates worship; the divine Adjuster presence conducts such worship in behalf of the mortal mind and the evolving immortal soul. True worship, in the last analysis, becomes an experience realized on four cosmic levels: the intellectual, the morontial, the spiritual, and the personal–the consciousness of mind, soul, and spirit, and their unification in personality. 5:3.2 But worship is undoubtedly encircuited and dispatched to the person of the Creator by the function of the Father’s personality circuit.

Excellent insights into the question. Thank you!

Richard E Warren

[Gene]

The material mind assenting to the attempt of its spiritizing self is a minuscule roll in a process that involves so much more.

it does not take much intellect to make this happen, to initiate worship. Probably more sincerity than knowledge required??

but intellect and soul growth are complementary, need each other, no???

[Bonita]

Gene wrote: The material mind assenting to the attempt of its spiritizing self is a minuscule roll in a process that involves so much more.

Actually, I think assenting is the most important part of worship. The soul yearns, the mind consents with the will of the personality.  Our will is the only worthwhile gift we have to give to God, and that is an integral part of the worship experience. Worship is a selfless expression of dedication of will along with gratefulness for the opportunity, and I suppose much more . . .

1:1.2 The affectionate dedication of the human will to the doing of the Father’s will is man’s choicest gift to God; in fact, such a consecration of creature will constitutes man’s only possible gift of true value to the Paradise Father.

5:3.8 The worship experience consists in the sublime attempt of the betrothed Adjuster to communicate to the divine Father the inexpressible longings and the unutterable aspirations of the human soul — the conjoint creation of the God-seeking mortal mind and the God-revealing immortal Adjuster. Worship is, therefore, the act of the material mind’s assenting to the attempt of its spiritualizing self, under the guidance of the associated spirit, to communicate with God as a faith son of the Universal Father. The mortal mind consents to worship; the immortal soul craves and initiates worship; the divine Adjuster presence conducts such worship in behalf of the mortal mind and the evolving immortal soul. True worship, in the last analysis, becomes an experience realized on four cosmic levels: the intellectual, the morontial, the spiritual, and the personal — the consciousness of mind, soul, and spirit, and their unification in personality.

Gene wrote:it does not take much intellect to make this happen, to initiate worship. Probably more sincerity than knowledge required??

I don’t think intelligence is necessary, but intellect is.  There’s a little bit of a difference there.  The intellect is the mind, whereas intelligence is both knowledge and the capacity to understand.  Mind is necessary to initiate worship.  The adjutants of worship and wisdom, which minister to the material mind, are the gateway to the soul.  These two adjutants originate the urge to worship in our minds.  Once we consent, the gateway opens and the Holy Spirit is then able to draw to her what is of real potential value, the Spirit of Truth interprets it for us and presents it to the Adjuster who shoots it up the personality circuit directly to God the Father.  (I simplified that just a bit.)

152:6.4 He designated the mind thus aroused and quickened as the gateway to the soul, where there resides that spiritual nature of man which must recognize truth and respond to the spiritual appeal of the gospel in order to afford the permanent results of true character transformations.

p1245:4 113:4.4 The impulse of worship largely originates in the spirit promptings of the higher mind adjutants, reinforced by the leadings of the Adjuster.

Gene wrote:  but intellect and soul growth are complementary, need each other, no???

Yes.  Intellect is mind.  The soul is the offspring of the material mind and the Adjuster, dominated by personality’s free will desire to do God’s will, and intelligence is contributory towards progress of soul growth.  There’s more I can add to the relation between mind and soul growth, but I think it’s off topic.  Not sure really.

111:2.10 The inevitable result of such a contactual spiritualization of the human mind is the gradual birth of a soul, the joint offspring of an adjutant mind dominated by a human will that craves to know God, working in liaison with the spiritual forces of the universe which are under the overcontrol of an actual fragment of the very God of all creation — the Mystery Monitor.

65:8.4 The soul may evolve regardless of mental culture but not in the absence of mental capacity and desire — the choice of survival and the decision to achieve ever-increasing perfection — to do the will of the Father in heaven. Although survival may not depend on the possession of knowledge and wisdom, progression most certainly does.

[Gene]

Love the perspective

thx

[Bradly]

Gene wrote:it does not take much intellect to make this happen, to initiate worship. Probably more sincerity than knowledge required??

101:2.15 (1107.5) The realization of religion never has been, and never will be, dependent on great learning or clever logic. It is spiritual insight, and that is just the reason why some of the world’s greatest religious teachers, even the prophets, have sometimes possessed so little of the wisdom of the world. Religious faith is available alike to the learned and the unlearned.

39:4.14 (435.7) The keys of the kingdom of heaven are: sincerity, more sincerity, and more sincerity. All men have these keys. Men use them — advance in spirit status — by decisions, by more decisions, and by more decisions. The highest moral choice is the choice of the highest possible value, and always — in any sphere, in all of them — this is to choose to do the will of God. If man thus chooses, he is great, though he be the humblest citizen of Jerusem or even the least of mortals on Urantia.

[Gene]

Leads me to consider how people with varying intentions respond to that fundamental urge to worship.

for those using intelligence it may translate to an sincere but endless futile effort to prove the Big Bang theory, fact experience.

or for those that use mind it may translate to an sincere Truth experience, finding God the person as the first source and center.

Just thinking.

????

 

 

[Richard E Warren]

Thanks for bringing worship into the discussion of Truth, Gene.

It’s hard to see how worship could be valuable, genuine or satisfying without some knowledge of, and experience with, the Truth of God. And if “God is absolute truth”, would it be genuine to worship truth, like the Chinese did?

…This worship of truth was provocative of research and fearless exploration of the laws of nature and the potentials of mankind. The Chinese of even six thousand years ago were still keen students and aggressive in their pursuit of truth…. (885:8) 79:7.11

.

Richard E Warren

[Bonita]

101:8.1  One believes truth, admires beauty, and reverences goodness, but does not worship them; such an attitude of saving faith is centered on God alone, who is all of these personified and infinitely more.

131:10.5 Always will I try to worship God with the help of the Spirit of Truth, which is my helper when I have become really God-knowing.

146:2.17 We worship God by the aid of the Father’s indwelling spirit and by the illumination of the human mind through the ministry of truth.

Is it genuine to worship truth? I would say not.

[Bonita]

Nigel Nunn wrote: If we think of truth as a technique for the assurance for pre-spiritual persons (1111.4, 101:5.14),

Is truth a technique?  Or, is the assurance of truth a technique? What is personality assurance and what role does truth play in it?

Here’s the quote referenced to above:

101:5.14 Increasingly throughout the morontia progression the assurance of truth replaces the assurance of faith. When you are finally mustered into the actual spirit world, then will the assurances of pure spirit insight operate in the place of faith and truth or, rather, in conjunction with, and superimposed upon, these former techniques of personality assurance.

[Richard E Warren]

Bonita wrote:

Is it genuine to worship truth? I would say not.

But, but, Bonita, truth is a divine person!

.

Richard E Warren

[Bonita]

Rick Warren wrote: But, but, Bonita, truth is a divine person!

Didn’t you read the quotes I offered which state we worship God with the HELP of the Spirit of Truth.  Did you read the one that says we don’t worship truth at all, we believe truth?  How about the one that says worship is facilitated by the illumination of truth?  I wonder who does that?

[Author]

Posts