Who Knows "The Truth"? What is Truth? Where is Truth Found?

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  • #20469
    Richard E Warren
    Richard E Warren
    Participant
    Rick Warren wrote: But, but, Bonita, truth is a divine person!

    Didn’t you read the quotes I offered which state we worship God with the HELP of the Spirit of Truth. Did you read the one that says we don’t worship truth at all, we believe truth? How about the one that says worship is facilitated by the illumination of truth? I wonder who does that?

    .

    Yes, thanks much, I know them well. You hit the nail on the head, as usual.  I was hoping to illumine, and perhaps discuss more, the general confusion between the concept of truth and the living truth, for teaching purposes. It’s not always easy, or fruitful, discussing truth when the frames of reference are so diverse.
     .
    This is the dictionary definition of truth, the noun:
     .
    …the quality or state of being true.
    …that which is true or in accordance with fact or reality.
    …a fact or belief that is accepted as true.
    .

    .ItIt’s a real stumbling block for me attempting to explain that truth is flexible, relative and divine, even a person–when its primary definition is so subjective and ill-defined.  It’s a new and somewhat alien concept, that one can be the truth.

    .

    Richard E Warren

    #20471
    Bonita
    Bonita
    Participant

    Well, fortunately we’re not here to study the dictionary.  We’re here studying a revelation.  You always learn something new when you embrace revelation, and truth is always a revelation.  Maybe it would be better to explain to people what revelation is. And, inform them that the dictionary is useless since it can’t define truth without using the word “true” . . .  pretty darn lame, if you ask me.  Clearly it’s inadequate.

    I agree that people think facts, truth and reality are all one and the same thing.  This is the reason why I wasted two whole days trying to explain the difference between them, and why the Spirit of Fact is like nails on a chalkboard.  I get nowhere even with those who are studying revelation, so I understand your frustration.  Truly I do.

    #20475
    Richard E Warren
    Richard E Warren
    Participant

    You’re up, Nigel :-)

    Richard E Warren

    #20476
    Avatar
    Nigel Nunn
    Participant

    Thanks Bonita, Rick, Brad and Gene!

    Bonita, your exploration (here) of facts vs. reality is very helpful.  Insight and nuance captured in 3 lines:

    * The causation reality response is designed to discriminate between fact and non-fact.
    * The duty reality response is designed to discriminate between what is morally right and morally wrong.
    * The worship reality response is designed to discriminate between what is value and what is not value.

    Rick wrote (msg 20469):

    “It’s not always easy, or fruitful, discussing truth when the frames of reference are so diverse.”

    This touches the point of that essay, which begins with a question, “What is it that makes something feel true?” If someone’s highly organized and polished frame does not include anything non-material, we need to adjust our approach.

    Bonita wrote (msg 20366):

    “I can’t find anything in TUB that says either the Divine Minister or the Holy Spirit validate anything. I’m pretty sure that validation comes from personal religious experience.”

    I had in mind the kind of validation implied here:

    “And it is these three cosmic intuitions that give objective validity, reality, to man’s experience in and with things, meanings, and values.” (192.6, 16:6.10)

    “Aside from these three inalienables of human consciousness, all human experience is really subjective except that intuitive realization of validity attaches to the unification of these three universe reality responses of cosmic recognition. ” (195.7, 16:9.1)

    What I’m exploring is how (non-spiritual) feelings of “objective validity” are made possible, and accessible, to sincere and insightful humans. As we know, our local universe Divine Minister bestows a spiritual circuit called the “Holy Spirit” (whose ministry Bonita explains so well). She also bestows seven other distinct circuits which serve as differential urges for nudging humans along.

    But where in this set of ministries do we find her role as mediator of those three distinct “intuitions of validity” made accessible by the cosmic mind? How would you describe the way she makes possible and accessible that “reality response” which “saves us from becoming helpless victims of the implied a priori assumptions of science, philosophy, and religion.” (191.7, 16:6.4)

    Since this insight depends on the cosmic intuitions, it would appear to be independent of adjutant ministry. And since it is intellectual (not supermindal or spiritual), it seems to be distinct from the (spiritual) ministry of the Holy Spirit. Thus my interest in teasing out her involvement in this powerful (non-spiritual) inspiration, which is accessible to each of our seven billion fellows, each of whom are more or less stuck in erroneous “frames in which to think”. (1260.2, 115:1.1)

    Regarding the Holy Spirit, I asked Bonita:

    When you say (msg 20378)and the Holy Spirit is only in the soul.”, what relation do mortals have with her spirit presence prior to receiving an Adjuster, i.e. before that mortal has a soul?

    (379.4, 34:5.4) When mind is thus endowed with the ministry of the Holy Spirit, it possesses the capacity for (consciously or unconsciously) choosing the spiritual presence of the Universal Father — the Thought Adjuster.

    Bonita replied:

    “None. The Holy Spirit arrives when the mortal enters the seventh psychic circle. That does not mean that individuals prior to the birth of their souls are not ministered to by cosmic mind, or the Divine Minister.”

    I was thinking the above quote (379.4, 34:5.4) refers to a mind “thus endowed with the ministry of the Holy Spirit“, prior to the presence of the Adjuster. What do you think?

    Bradley asked (msg 20303):

    “Also please expand on your idea about “reality sensitivity”. What is the role of epochal revelation in delivering “facts” of reality if the Mother’s Spirit were delivering reality sensitivity…”

    What I had in mind is simply that the cosmic intuitions make it possible for us to accept epochal revelation as valid. This is not about intuitively divining undiscovered facts, it’s about enabling that “sniff test” that allows us to evaluate the credentials of something presented as fact.

    Bonita wrote (msg 20442):

    “I get the impression that you are using the word “fact” to indicate some level of certainty,”

    Not quite. What got me started was the UB revelation about four absolutely distinct gravity circuits: personal, spiritual, mindal and material. I got to wondering whether each of these four integrated (yet absolutely distinct) domains might have its own flavor of “fact”, and corresponding mode of “validation”, some way to recognize and respond to the facts peculiar to that domain.

    Thus the facts of the personality circuit are the Universal Father and love. Its technique of validation is living truth. Likewise, the facts of the spirit circuit are the Eternal Son and spirit luminosity. Its technique of validation is religious. The facts of the mind circuit are the Infinite Spirit and intellectual insight. Its technique of validation is (universal) philosophy. And the facts of the material circuit are Paradise and material light. Its technique of validation is (universal) science.

    Of course to some this must be more scratching on chalkboards. But to a Force Organizer?

    Sorry for taking so long to reply. Brain goes slow, and time units no longer so short  :-)

    Nigel

    #20477
    Avatar
    Anonymous
    Inactive

    Well, fortunately we’re not here to study the dictionary. We’re here studying a revelation. You always learn something new when you embrace revelation, and truth is always a revelation. Maybe it would be better to explain to people what revelation is. And, inform them that the dictionary is useless since it can’t define truth without using the word “true” . . . pretty darn lame, if you ask me. Clearly it’s inadequate.

    I agree that people think facts, truth and reality are all one and the same thing. This is the reason why I wasted two whole days trying to explain the difference between them, and why the Spirit of Fact is like nails on a chalkboard. I get nowhere even with those who are studying revelation, so I understand your frustration. Truly I do.

    It is true that we are “not here to study the dictionary”, but even the UB instructs use to use it from time to time, as the dictionary changes because as the evolution of time progresses, even words take on different or expanded meanings, as is noted below:

    (1087.3) 99:1.6 Religion must not become organically involved in the secular work of social reconstruction and economic reorganization. But it must actively keep pace with all these advances in civilization by making clear-cut and vigorous restatements of its moral mandates and spiritual precepts, its progressive philosophy of human living and transcendent survival. The spirit of religion is eternal, but the form of its expression must be restated every time the dictionary of human language is revised.

    Now I do find the notation in Nigel’s post, quoting “Bonita” having said: “I can’t find anything in TUB that says either the Divine Minister or the Holy Spirit validate anything. I’m pretty sure that validation comes from personal religious experience.”

    Where I would agree that “personal religious experience” is a factor in a persons understanding of “truth” or “fact”, because a persons “experience” is paramount to their understanding of “revelation” or something which is reveled, yet can be understood differently based on that experience.

    Therefore if every persons “personal religious experience” were the same, then the revelation embedded in the UB would be easy to comprehend and could be taught the same way, other than just reading a passage and saying, this is what is meant, and there can be no other variables in context which can mean anything else.  This is however, not true, because for one thing “religious experience” does not mean that this experience comes from a persons Religion; it comes from the experience from having lived a life that may have been filled with adverse experiences which are different from one person to another.  Where, my life’s experiences cannot be compared to anyone else’s, but some would say that their experiences are absolute to the way only they can comprehend their religious experience as being truth.  Therefore their truth becomes their fact, but if personal religious experiences are not the same, how is it that anyone might expect everyone to comprehend someone else’s understanding of truth as fact.

    Therefore “The spirit of Truth”, is the same as “The spirit of Fact”.  And if one were to look at the dictionaries definition of the word “fact”, one could understand this as being true.

    “fact” — noun

    1. something that actually exists; reality; truth.
    2. something known to exist or to have happened.
    3. a truth known by actual experience or observation; something known to be true.
    4. something said to be true or supposed to have happened.

    So if one were to study the UB as a revelation, then one must use there own experience in order to discern whether it is true, thereby that which one considers as being true, must then be a fact, to one’s own understanding.  But, if person’s experiences are different, from on to another, how can it be possible to assume that all truth is fact, to each person the same way?  Sometimes it may be necessary to agree to disagree, that everyone’s experience is personal and cannot be forced upon others as if to change their experiences to match one’s own.  In order to do this, one must have an open relationship with others in order to understand them.  Before one can know others, they must know them self first.  If one knows oneself well enough, what difference does it make if others disagree with your understanding of Truth?

    #20478
    Richard E Warren
    Richard E Warren
    Participant

    Thanks very much, Nigel, Midi, for the thought provoking and insightful commentaries.

    It’s a fascinating question, one most worth exploring to the limits of human understanding: What in us says; ‘that’s true’, or ‘that’s not true’? For me, it is a resonance with what I perceive to be real, a feeling of assurance, a cosmic knowing. Kind of like the experience of goodness or the perception of beauty, there is a definite connection with the REAL, with God. The opposite would seem true also. When something doesn’t feel right, fit right, or resonate, then it is lacking in truth. But then every person has a different (and to some degree erroneous) grasp of what is real, so any discussion of truth, fact, and reality almost always winds up in the land of subjectivity, even when and where The Spirit of Truth, the Holy Spirit, and God are supposed to be congruent and validating presences.

     

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    Richard E Warren

    #20479
    Bonita
    Bonita
    Participant
    Nigel Nunn wrote: But where in this set of ministries do we find her role as mediator of those three distinct “intuitions of validity” made accessible by the cosmic mind? How would you describe the way she makes possible and accessible that “reality response” which “saves us from becoming helpless victims of the implied a priori assumptions of science, philosophy, and religion.” (191.7, 16:6.4)

    Nigel, it is my understanding that these intuitions are innate in the cosmic mind.  They are the very threads of the fabric of mind which, like gravity, pull reality from all three levels toward it in order that they can be understood.  The adjutants minister to the material mind, and embroider their influence  in such a way as to influence the direction of material reality once it is attracted to cosmic mind. The lower adjutants make mind connections which give physical reality meaning.  The higher adjutants facilitate the urge to give meaning to philosophical reality and number 7  coordinates all the adjutants such that thoughts can be accessed by the Holy Spirit whose ministry facilitates the recognition of spiritual reality.  I see these intuitions more as a reality attraction or magnetism already built into the substance of cosmic mind.  Cosmic mind with its reality drawing power is the substructure on which all the ministries do their processing work, as they are able to make contact.  There is no additional ministry for this purpose.  I think if there were, it would have been mentioned, given a name, and described in TUB for our edification.

    Nigel Nunn wrote: Since this insight depends on the cosmic intuitions, it would appear to be independent of adjutant ministry. And since it is intellectual (not supermindal or spiritual), it seems to be distinct from the (spiritual) ministry of the Holy Spirit. Thus my interest in teasing out her involvement in this powerful (non-spiritual) inspiration, which is accessible to each of our seven billion fellows, each of whom are more or less stuck in erroneous “frames in which to think”. (1260.2, 115:1.1)

    The cosmic mind is the foundation for all mind on all levels, along with its magnetic pull on reality.  The level of reality determines the level of cosmic mind and its ministry.  The adjutants themselves, are part of the cosmic mind.  They minister to the level of cosmic mind which functions at the material level of reality. The cosmic mind is also the basis of the supermind, a morontia level of the cosmic mind which functions at the soul level of reality.  And the discovery, recognition and interpretation of all reality attracted to any mind, at any level, is a spiritual process.  The adjutants are also called “spirit of”.  The supermind is the Holy Spirit.  Mind ministry is a spirit ministry.   Even the gravitational pull the cosmic mind has on reality is a presence ministry.  Gravity is a presence ministry provided by spirit.

    15:9.1 The universal circuits of Paradise do actually pervade the realms of the seven superuniverses. These presence circuits are: the personality gravity of the Universal Father, the spiritual gravity of the Eternal Son, the mind gravity of the Conjoint Actor, and the material gravity of the eternal Isle.

    Don’t forget that the greatest function of the cosmic mind is where the divergence between physical reality and spiritual reality is the greatest.  Cosmic mind functions to pull these two divergent levels of reality together within mind in order to unify them.  The cosmic mind does the drawing and pulling, the mind ministries do the work of knitting it all together into something that makes sense and is workable within the cosmic framework.

    Nigel Nunn wrote: I was thinking the above quote (379.4, 34:5.4) refers to a mind “thus endowed with the ministry of the Holy Spirit“, prior to the presence of the Adjuster. What do you think?

    For us, this event occurs simultaneously.  The moment the individual enters the seventh circle, all three of the higher spirit ministries appear: Holy Spirit, Spirit of Truth and Adjuster.  There is no distinguishable time lag.  Are you talking about the days before Pentecost, the days of primitive man when not everyone got an Adjuster?  I’m not following your logic.

    Nigel Nunn wrote: What I had in mind is simply that the cosmic intuitions make it possible for us to accept epochal revelation as valid. This is not about intuitively divining undiscovered facts, it’s about enabling that “sniff test” that allows us to evaluate the credentials of something presented as fact.

    I thought that we were specifically told that the source of validity of epochal revelation resided in the soul.  Revelation is a spiritual phenomenon.  Truth is a revelation.  The revelation of truth can only occur in the soul, where a supermaterial mind recognizes supermaterial reality.  At the very beginning of TUB the revelator admits that the spirit forces within the soul will enable us to grasp the reality of the meaning of the text.

    0:12.13  But we know that there dwells within the human mind a fragment of God, and that there sojourns with the human soul the Spirit of Truth; and we further know that these spirit forces conspire to enable material man to grasp the reality of spiritual values and to comprehend the philosophy of universe meanings. But even more certainly we know that these spirits of the Divine Presence are able to assist man in the spiritual appropriation of all truth contributory to the enhancement of the ever-progressing reality of personal religious experience — God-consciousness.

    Nigel Nunn wrote: I got to wondering whether each of these four integrated (yet absolutely distinct) domains might have its own flavor of “fact”, and corresponding mode of “validation”, some way to recognize and respond to the facts peculiar to that domain.

    Don’t you mean the flavor of reality?  That would be the cosmic intuitions, the stickiness of reality and how neatly and comfortably reality fits into the realm of mind?  Trying to stuff nonreality into an increasingly real and unified mind is disruptive and uncomfortable.  The flavor of each level of reality can only be experienced in mind.  Therefore it is the recognition of these levels of reality which provide the flavor. (actually, I like scent)

    Physical gravity has to do with the physical level of reality, and the flavor of recognizing this reality comes from the cosmic intuition called causation.  It has to do with things, energy, facts, reason, science.  Physical gravity pulls the physical toward the Isle of Paradise and mind attempts to integrate this level of reality into the totality of personality experience by recognizing its beauty.

    Spiritual gravity has to do with the spiritual level of reality, and the flavor of recognizing this reality comes from the cosmic intuition called worship.  It has to do with relations, truth, faith, value, spirit. Spiritual gravity pulls spirit toward the Eternal Son and mind attempts to integrate this level of reality in such a way that it becomes the motivating influence on all other levels of the personality.  It does this through the mindal level of reality by the recognition of truth.

    Mind gravity has to do with the mind level of reality, and the flavor of this reality recognition comes from the cosmic intuition called duty.  It has to do with intellect, ideas, philosophy, and meanings.  Mind gravity pulls mind toward the Infinite Spirit while attempting to integrate the other two levels of reality, fact and value, or physical and spiritual, in such a way which stabilizes and balances the mind so it can facilitate growth by allowing increasing spirit dominance.

    Personality gravity has to do with personality itself.  The flavor of the recognition of this level of reality comes from God himself, the Adjuster. But since the Adjuster is prepersonal, we are gifted with personality presences who assist us in recognizing this form of reality on spiritual levels, the Holy Spirit and the Spirit of Truth.  Personality gravity has more to do with the recognition of the goodness of God.

    Nigel Nunn wrote: Thus the facts of the personality circuit are the Universal Father and love. Its technique of validation is living truth. Likewise, the facts of the spirit circuit are the Eternal Son and spirit luminosity. Its technique of validation is religious. The facts of the mind circuit are the Infinite Spirit and intellectual insight. Its technique of validation is (universal) philosophy. And the facts of the material circuit are Paradise and material light. Its technique of validation is (universal) science.

    I think you would do better to change the word fact to reality.  The technique of validation of the Father’s love is personal religious experience and the yielding of spiritual fruit.  The technique of validating spiritual reality is the same. The technique of validating mind reality is allowing it to become dominated by spirit reality.  The technique of validating material reality is allowing it to be dominated by mind reality which is then dominated by spirit reality.  Validity only comes from unification of all three levels of reality, and this can only be done by the transference of dominance to spiritual levels.  There is no validity unless there is unification. Validity comes from the “harmony of the triunity of functional reality”. And oddly enough, mind itself is unity.

    16:9.1 Aside from these three inalienables of human consciousness, all human experience is really subjective except that intuitive realization of validity attaches to the unification of these three universe reality responses of cosmic recognition.

    102:2.5 Mind is unity; mortal consciousness lives on the mind level and perceives the universal realities through the eyes of the mind endowment. The mindperspective will not yield the existential unity of the source of reality, the First Source and Center, but it can and sometime will portray to man the experiential synthesis of energy, mind, and spirit in and as the Supreme Being. But mind can never succeed in this unification of the diversity of reality unless such mindis firmly aware of material things, intellectual meanings, and spiritual values; only in the harmony of the triunity of functional reality is there unity, and only in unity is there the personality satisfaction of the realization of cosmic constancy and consistency.

    42:11.7 Since mind co-ordinates the universe, fixity of mechanisms is nonexistent. The phenomenon of progressive evolution associated with cosmic self-maintenance is universal. The evolutionary capacity of the universe is inexhaustible in the infinity of spontaneity. Progress towards harmonious unity, a growing experiential synthesis superimposed on an ever-increasing complexity of relationships, could be effected only by a purposive and dominant mind.

    Nigel Nunn wrote: But to a Force Organizer?
    How about mind gravity?  Gravity is a force with a presence.  The organizers are the adjutants on the material level, the Holy Spirit on the spirit level.
    Nigel Nunn wrote: Brain goes slow, and time units no longer so short
    Suffering from the same malady myself.  But even though the brain is slowing down, I think my mind is speeding up.  It’s a quantity/quality thing.  And time . . . yeah . . .  seven years go by in seven minutes these days. Thanks so much for the response.  Looking forward to more.
    #20480
    Avatar
    George Park
    Participant

    Nigel, I find your turn of phrase “Spirit of Fact” quite helpful to this discussion. I think the “spirit” of what your phrase attempts to capture is the feeling of objective reality which these insights bring to us.

    “And it is these three cosmic intuitions that give objective validity, reality, to man’s experience in and with things, meanings, and values.” (16:6.10)

    The point has been made repeatedly that truth is personally discerned. For some this implies that truth is only a matter of subjective interpretation, which further implies that all interpretations are equally valid. In this post-modern view of truth there are no true facts, only interpretations. Your phrase reminds us that the value of truth is an independently existent objective reality which is necessarily associated more strongly with certain facts by certain meanings. The highest truth is that meaning which fully unifies things and values. There are any number of ideas about the universe which can be formed from the available facts, but they are not all equally true. There is only one true concept of the universe, and all of our subjective ideas about it are either closer to or further away from this objectively real truth. Truth is not egalitarian. It authoritatively establishes an objectively real cosmic hierarchy of true things, meanings, and values.

    Speaking poetically, there is a feeling of objectively real truth apprehended in the material fact of the Book, almost as though a “Spirit of Fact” authenticates its superhuman origin.

    #20481
    Bonita
    Bonita
    Participant

    So wait.  Are we equating truth with authority?  Is the Spirit of Fact a deified source of authority used for authentication?  Again, these are different words used to indicate reality.   It’s nice to use new words, but reality is authentic which gives it authority over nonreality.    I think we’re doing a different dance to the same tune.  You like the Mashed Potato, I like the Twist.

    George Park wrote: The point has been made repeatedly that truth is personally discerned.

    We are told that the concept of truth can be considered without personality; but when personality is present, truth is experienced, and it is experienced on supermaterial levels.

    1:7.3 The concept of truth might possibly be entertained apart from personality, . . . 

    George Park wrote:The highest truth is that meaning which fully unifies things and values.

    I’m not arguing with this, I’m just wondering how it fits into the quote below:

    118:3.3 But when truth becomes linked with fact, then both time and space condition its meanings and correlate its values. Such realities of truth wedded to fact become concepts and are accordingly relegated to the domain of relative cosmic realities.

    Personally, I think the highest truth exists only on Paradise, and it’s something we can never really attain.  We can only approximate it in this universe era.  Even when the Supreme emerges, when we achieve the final penetration of truth, it will still be experiential, not existential.  Which means, there’s always more.

    115:3.19 The final penetration of the truth, beauty, and goodness of the Supreme Being could only open up to the progressing creature those absonite qualities of ultimate divinity which lie beyond the concept levels of truth, beauty, and goodness.

    George Park wrote: There is only one true concept of the universe, and all of our subjective ideas about it are either closer to or further away from this objectively real truth.

    I don’t understand this statement.  Are you referring to final truth, the truth we penetrate with the emergence of the Supreme, as the goal of truth attainment?  If so, I can agree. But in all honesty, I don’t think truth is about ideas.  Ideas are on the mind level of reality, the philosophical arena.  Truth is about ideals which are experienced on the spiritual level of mind.  You really can’t philosophize about truth as though it were wisdom, because when you do, you’re attempting to “undertake the human formulation of divine truth” which kills it.

    180:5.2 Divine truth is a spirit-discerned and living reality. Truth exists only on high spiritual levels of the realization of divinity and the consciousness of communion with God. You can know the truth, and you can live the truth; you can experience the growth of truth in the soul and enjoy the liberty of its enlightenment in the mind, but you cannot imprison truth in formulas, codes, creeds, or intellectual patterns of human conduct. When you undertake the human formulation of divine truth, it speedily dies. The post-mortem salvage of imprisoned truth, even at best, can eventuate only in the realization of a peculiar form of intellectualized glorified wisdom. Static truth is dead truth, and only dead truth can be held as a theory. Living truth is dynamic and can enjoy only an experiential existence in the human mind.

    2:7.3  Divine truth, final truth, is uniform and universal, but the story of things spiritual, as it is told by numerous individuals hailing from various spheres, may sometimes vary in details owing to this relativity in the completeness of knowledge and in the repleteness of personal experience as well as in the length and extent of that experience. While the laws and decrees, the thoughts and attitudes, of the First Great Source and Center are eternally, infinitely, and universally true; at the same time, their application to, and adjustment for, every universe, system, world, and created intelligence, are in accordance with the plans and technique of the Creator Sons as they function in their respective universes, as well as in harmony with the local plans and procedures of the Infinite Spirit and of all other associated celestial personalities.

    The last quote above more or less explains why the Spirit of Truth, the spirit presence of the personality of our Master Michael, reveals and interprets truth as he prefers within his own creation.  So, there is a certain quality of truth, values and spiritual reality we are all striving for, but none of us, human or divine, ever fully attain it until everyone does and the Supreme emerges.  Meanwhile, it’s perfectly acceptable to have different experiences with truth because truth is relative.  It is living and flexible.

    Furthermore, I have to reiterate that truth is not interpreted by our material minds; it is experienced in the soul.  Interpretation by the material mind is a philosophical technique which distorts truth.  The superphilosophical interpretation of reality occurs in the soul (approaching mota) and is the realm of the Spirit of Truth.

    101:3.2 Spiritual philosophy, the wisdom of spirit realities, is the endowment of the Spirit of Truth, the combined gift of the bestowal Sons to the children of men.

    #20482
    Avatar
    Anonymous
    Inactive

    The last quote above more or less explains why the Spirit of Truth, the spirit presence of the personality of our Master Michael, reveals and interprets truth as he prefers within his own creation. So, there is a certain quality of truth, values and spiritual reality we are all striving for, but none of us, human or divine, ever fully attain it until everyone does and the Supreme emerges. Meanwhile, it’s perfectly acceptable to have different experiences with truth because truth is relative. It is living and flexible.

    Furthermore, I have to reiterate that truth is not interpreted by our material minds; it is experienced in the soul. Interpretation by the material mind is a philosophical technique which distorts truth. The superphilosophical interpretation of reality occurs in the soul (approaching mota) and is the realm of the Spirit of Truth.

    101:3.2 Spiritual philosophy, the wisdom of spirit realities, is the endowment of the Spirit of Truth, the combined gift of the bestowal Sons to the children of men.

    (Color emphasis mine)

    I’m not sure I can agree with your statement above Bonita, however I understand why you say: “The last quote above more or less explains why the Spirit of Truth,” but from what you opine, and what I read into that, it seems that it is your impression that everyone must fully understand “Master Michael”(‘s) interpretation of His truth as He reveals it to who?, you?  Which if so, that would be fine for you but, how could this truth as revealed to you be subjected to others who have different experiences?  Where in your second statement you state that “truth is not interpreted by our material minds”, where in the UB quote below, “truth an experience of the soul,” which “is the domain of the spiritually endowed intellect” but is relevant to “knowing God.”  Therefore, as you indicate above, the “interpretation of reality” from the soul’s experience, is relevant to knowing “the Spirit of Truth.”  Is not the soul, the Devin You also, and accessible through the Thought Adjuster first before becoming God Conscious?  It might be presumed that your interpretation associates “Master Michael” as a persons Thought Adjuster? which does not compute in the UB, as I read it.

    (1435.2) 130:4.10 Knowledge is the sphere of the material or fact-discerning mind. Truth is the domain of the spiritually endowed intellect that is conscious of knowing God. Knowledge is demonstrable; truth is experienced. Knowledge is a possession of the mind; truth an experience of the soul, the progressing self. Knowledge is a function of the nonspiritual level; truth is a phase of the mind-spirit level of the universes. The eye of the material mind perceives a world of factual knowledge; the eye of the spiritualized intellect discerns a world of true values. These two views, synchronized and harmonized, reveal the world of reality, wherein wisdom interprets the phenomena of the universe in terms of progressive personal experience.

    You also use a portion of the UB quote below, above, and many other partial quote in your last posting, which by themselves may validate your usage of them but when incorporated with the rest of the UB quote, may not qualify the same way?

    Where if the material mind cannot interpret truth, then truth can be associated with the “cosmic mind” and the “Thought Adjuster,  which is the Father’s gift to man”, and is a separate association from the Spirit of Truth?  But I can associate the Spirit of truth with the Holy Spirit, which are both of Spirit, and “soul intelligence”, which may interpret “spirit realities” but what of material realities?

    (1108.1) 101:3.2 Faith-insight, or spiritual intuition, is the endowment of the cosmic mind in association with the Thought Adjuster, which is the Father’s gift to man. Spiritual reason, soul intelligence, is the endowment of the Holy Spirit, the Creative Spirit’s gift to man. Spiritual philosophy, the wisdom of spirit realities, is the endowment of the Spirit of Truth, the combined gift of the bestowal Sons to the children of men. And the co-ordination and interassociation of these spirit endowments constitute man a spirit personality in potential destiny.

    It would seem that from the last line from the UB quote above where “man a spirit personality in potential destiny” we must assume that being a “spirit personality” having “potential destiny” is unrelated to one’s representation to material personality, but being of dual natures we must take into consideration that overall reality, specifically material reality cannot be absolute when interwoven with spiritual reality.  Two individuals may be watching a specific event at the same time but when questioned as to their actual experience, they may have two different versions of that event.  Both versions are truth and factual as each has experienced, but may rarely be identical when asked to present this experience to someone else.  This is the same with “Revelation” and the content of the Urantia Book as understood by each reader.  Revelation is dynamic and can never be static, therefore the words presented in the UB is static within its presentation of words on paper, but understood as dynamic to the individual.  If one were to assume that the static text must be understood as static meaning for all, then we might as well give up know because no one of us is perfect by our self.

    #20492
    Richard E Warren
    Richard E Warren
    Participant
    .
    Thanks for your contributions everyone,
    .
       Final Truth is an unknowable mystery, but revealed truth declares the God of Truth is our most intimate friend who lives at our very core. And since God is truth, and our truest identity is the indwelling fragment of God, then we are truth, in some measure.  Is that not the best truth of all?! Amazing to know we have a trinity of living truth living in our minds.
     .
       I don’t doubt we will gradually discover what truth is to the mysterious Universal Father, up to our capacity as Finaliters at least. And we all receive a partial insight into the totality of Absolute Truth through our unique experiences traveling through space, from world to world, tracing a single line on the great cosmic mosaic, from Urantia to Paradise, one that no other has traced or will again. Father’s truth is uniquely expressed in us, through our Thought Adjuster–when we are living the spirit-led life of course. And we know it is spirit-led because truth has the taste of God.
    .
    It requires great courage to face genuine truth, partial truth needs less courage. Falsehood involves little or no courage. Father is the truth from the absolute level to our lowly plane of existence. The truth of how God can personally be present with every member of the universal family everywhere in the cosmos at the same time, and still be our One Universal Sovereign who (in perfection mind you) upholds, powers, and guides the Universe, is explained by saying simply, omnipresence and omnipotence are divine prerogatives. That puts a label on, but explains nothing. The Truth of God is the greatest mystery of all, but we always know Father exists, because we and the cosmos exist. A real and vibrant piece of Father lives inside us, seeking to reveal the truth, offer constant embrace, even seek our loving attention and eternal friendship.
    .
       …God is absolute truth. As truth one may know God, but to understand–to explain–God,
    one must explore the fact of the universe of universes…. (1125.1) 102:6.6
     .
       The greatest and most real of all truths is God. To grasp the total reality, meaning and value of truth up to our capacity, we must view things as God does, become God-like. God is Truth, but truth is only one aspect of God. To know Father’s truth in perfection we will know and become living truth, as only we can. We will want to know everything about God before actually meeting God on Paradise, in person. That’ll be a Moment of Truth, won’t it!
     .
       You may wish to thank God for providing you with innumerable teachers and countless lives to achieve the creature level of understanding of truth. After reaching the source of Truth on Paradise, we will want to serve endlessly bringing divine truth to our less advanced siblings, those still seeking truth. As we are now.
     .

       If God is the source, center and destiny of all truth, personality, value, meaning and purpose, then truth for us personally is how we relate to Father on the spiritual/personal level. If God is Truth and we are children of God, what is truth to us??

    Whatever the truth is to us, it is not a boring universe. The space/time cosmos was created as our school and our cruising ground, a vast arena where we learn, grow, advance in spirit and service, in wisdom and knowledge, and where we perfect the God-like act of revealing truth. The universe is made so we can eventually find and live truth, but it takes effort. No hurry, no worry, every worthy goal will be reached if we, each day relentlessly, joyously, and willingly, seek the advice and counsel of our “truth response” mechanism, also known as the Spirit of Truth. God thinks of everything.

    ..

       …Truth is living; the Spirit of Truth is ever leading the children of light into new realms of spiritual reality and divine service…. (1917.3) 176:3.7
     .
    ***

    Richard E Warren

    #20493
    Richard E Warren
    Richard E Warren
    Participant
    Thanks for your contributions everyone,
       Final Truth is an unknowable mystery, but revealed truth declares the God of Truth is our most intimate friend who lives at our very core. And since God is truth, and our truest identity is the indwelling fragment of God, then we are truth, in some measure. Is that not the best truth of all?! Amazing to know we have a trinity of living truth living in our minds.
       I don’t doubt we will gradually discover what truth is to the mysterious Universal Father, up to our capacity as Finaliters at least. And we all receive a partial insight into the totality of Absolute Truth through our unique experiences traveling through space, from world to world, tracing a single line on the great cosmic mosaic, from Urantia to Paradise, one that no other has traced or will again. Father’s truth is uniquely expressed in us, through our Thought Adjuster–when we are living the spirit-led life of course. And we know it is spirit-led because truth has the taste of God.
       It requires great courage to face genuine truth, partial truth needs less courage. Falsehood involves little or no courage. Father is the truth from the absolute level to our lowly plane of existence. The truth of how God can personally be present with every member of the universal family everywhere in the cosmos at the same time, and still be our One Universal Sovereign who (in perfection mind you) upholds, powers, and guides the Universe, is explained by saying simply, omnipresence and omnipotence are divine prerogatives. That puts a label on, but explains nothing. The Truth of God is the greatest mystery of all, but we always know Father exists, because we and the cosmos exist. A real and vibrant piece of Father lives inside us, seeking to reveal the truth, offer constant embrace, even seek our loving attention and eternal friendship.
    …God is absolute truth. As truth one may know God, but to understand–to explain–God, one must explore the fact of the universe of universes…. (1125.1) 102:6.6
       The greatest and most real of all truths is God. To grasp the total reality, meaning and value of truth up to our capacity, we must view things as God does, become God-like. God is Truth, but truth is only one aspect of God. To know Father’s truth in perfection we will know and become living truth, as only we can. We will want to know everything about God before actually meeting God on Paradise, in person. That’ll be a Moment of Truth, won’t it!
       You may wish to thank God for providing you with innumerable teachers and countless lives to achieve the creature level of understanding of truth. After reaching the source of Truth on Paradise, we will want to serve endlessly bringing divine truth to our less advanced siblings, those still seeking truth. As we are now.
       If God is the source, center and destiny of all truth, personality, value, meaning and purpose, then truth for us personally is how we relate to Father on the spiritual/personal level. If God is Truth and we are children of God, what is truth to us??
       Whatever the truth is to us, it is not a boring universe. The space/time cosmos was created as our school and our cruising ground, a vast arena where we learn, grow, advance in spirit and service, in wisdom and knowledge, and where we perfect the God-like act of revealing truth. The universe is made so we can eventually find and live truth, but it takes effort. No hurry, no worry, every worthy goal will be reached if we, each day relentlessly, joyously, and willingly, seek the advice and counsel of our “truth response” mechanism, also known as the Spirit of Truth. God thinks of everything.
    …Truth is living; the Spirit of Truth is ever leading the children of light into new realms of spiritual reality and divine service…. (1917.3) 176:3.7
    ***

    Richard E Warren

    #20494
    Avatar
    George Park
    Participant

    Are we equating truth with authority?

    Yes, of course. It is the association of the spirit reality of truth with the material reality of fact which establishes an authoritatively true meaning. The less this association is conditioned by time and space, the more the truth approaches an absolute status.

    PARADISE is the eternal center of the universe of universes and the abiding place of the Universal Father, the Eternal Son, the Infinite Spirit, and their divine co-ordinates and associates. This central Isle is the most gigantic organized body of cosmic reality in all the master universe. Paradise is a material sphere as well as a spiritual abode. All of the intelligent creation of the Universal Father is domiciled on material abodes; hence must the absolute controlling center also be material, literal. (11:0.1)

    The Isle of Paradise is the highest material fact; it is an absolute and eternal fact. The only reason we know it is an absolute fact is because the spirit reality of absolute truth is associated with it. Rather, to the extent that we recognize the reality of truth we recognize that it is literally a factual material reality.

    Interpretation by the material mind is a philosophical technique which distorts truth.

    This is not always the case, since the material mind can grasp the absolute truth of the absolute fact of the Isle of Paradise. God is the absolute of truth. Paradise is the absolute of fact.

    #20495
    Richard E Warren
    Richard E Warren
    Participant
    Thanks for your contributions everyone,
    Final Truth is an unknowable mystery, but revealed truth declares the God of Truth is our most intimate friend who lives at our very core. And since God is truth, and our truest identity is the indwelling fragment of God, then we are truth, in some measure. Is that not the best truth of all?! Amazing to know we have a trinity of living truth living in our minds.
       I don’t doubt we will gradually discover what truth is to the mysterious Universal Father, up to our capacity as Finaliters at least. And we all receive a partial insight into the totality of Absolute Truth through our unique experiences traveling through space, from world to world, tracing a single line on the great cosmic mosaic, from Urantia to Paradise, one that no other has traced or will again. Father’s truth is uniquely expressed in us, through our Thought Adjuster–when we are living the spirit-led life of course. And we know it is spirit-led because truth has the taste of God.
       It requires great courage to face genuine truth, partial truth needs less courage. Falsehood involves little or no courage. Father is the truth from the absolute level to our lowly plane of existence. The truth of how God can personally be present with every member of the universal family everywhere in the cosmos at the same time, and still be our One Universal Sovereign who (in perfection mind you) upholds, powers, and guides the Universe, is explained by saying simply, omnipresence and omnipotence are divine prerogatives. That puts a label on, but explains nothing. The Truth of God is the greatest mystery of all, but we always know Father exists, because we and the cosmos exist. A real and vibrant piece of Father lives inside us, seeking to reveal the truth, offer constant embrace, even seek our loving attention and eternal friendship.
    …God is absolute truth. As truth one may know God, but to understand–to explain–God, one must explore the fact of the universe of universes…. (1125.1) 102:6.6
       The greatest and most real of all truths is God. To grasp the total reality, meaning and value of truth up to our capacity, we must view things as God does, become God-like. God is Truth, but truth is only one aspect of God. To know Father’s truth in perfection we will know and become living truth, as only we can. We will want to know everything about God before actually meeting God on Paradise, in person. That’ll be a Moment of Truth, won’t it!
       You may wish to thank God for providing you with innumerable teachers and countless lives to achieve the creature level of understanding of truth. After reaching the source of Truth on Paradise, we will want to serve endlessly bringing divine truth to our less advanced siblings, those still seeking truth. As we are now.
       If God is the source, center and destiny of all truth, personality, value, meaning and purpose, then truth for us personally is how we relate to Father on the spiritual/personal level. If God is Truth and we are children of God, what is truth to us??
       Whatever the truth is to us, it is not a boring universe. The space/time cosmos was created as our school and our cruising ground, a vast arena where we learn, grow, advance in spirit and service, in wisdom and knowledge, and where we perfect the God-like act of revealing truth. The universe is made so we can eventually find and live truth, but it takes effort. No hurry, no worry, every worthy goal will be reached if we, each day relentlessly, joyously, and willingly, seek the advice and counsel of our “truth response” mechanism, also known as the Spirit of Truth. God thinks of everything.
    …Truth is living; the Spirit of Truth is ever leading the children of light into new realms of spiritual reality and divine service…. (1917.3) 176:3.7
    ***

    Richard E Warren

    #20496
    Richard E Warren
    Richard E Warren
    Participant

    Sidenote: If anyone else couldn’t submit their post today, you might try changing your password. Worked for me.

    Richard E Warren

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