Who Knows "The Truth"? What is Truth? Where is Truth Found?

[Bonita]

Bradly wrote: Or is the Mother’s Spirit that you think makes the Son’s gift operational in the ascender’s soul?

Hey Bradly.  I know you aren’t talking to me, but I wanted to add something I forgot to include in an earlier post.  Previously I said, “In the soul, the Holy Spirit has her own presence (34:4.7) while providing the focus for the Spirit of Truth.  They work in concert as a dual spirit liaison (34:5.4).”  I would like to explain why the Holy Spirit is the focus for the Spirit of Truth.

Michael’s Spirit of Truth is not handicapped by time but is by space.  He can be in contact with every mind on this planet, all at the same time.  But we are not just time creatures; we are time-space creatures.  He cannot be in every space on the planet at the same time. He can only be in a properly prepared mind, one prepared by the Holy Spirit.  Why?  One of the reasons is that the Holy Spirit is not handicapped by space, but is by time, she provides the “space” for him to do this.  Together they solve the space-time problem of reaching every one of their creatures in space, and do it all at the same time.

So, other things to think about include things like: What are the differences between the Holy Spirit and Divine Minister?  Does the Holy Spirit do everything the Divine Minister does?  Is the Holy Spirit or the Divine Minister the same thing as the cosmic mind? Or are they different in some way?  How are the adjutants related to all of this? Why do they call the Creative Spirit in the soul the Holy Spirit, but elsewhere she’s referred to by a different name? Where is the personality of the Divine Minister and how does it relate to the Holy Spirit? Where is the Michael’s personality and how does it relate to the Spirit of Truth? What’s the difference between presence and personality? Lots to discuss when it comes to understanding this, but I think it probably will detract from this thread to go into it right now.

Even more questions to ask are, 1.) Are the words fact and reality synonymous?  2.) Are facts and truth the same type of reality?  3.)Are facts ever a revelation? 4.) Can fact consciousness lead to truth consciousness? 5.) Is there such a thing as knowledge of truth, or is truth always experienced? 6.)What role does the Holy Spirit play in truth experience.  I have dozens more, but it’s dinner time.

[Richard E Warren]

Bonita wrote:

Rick Warren wrote: Logic and intuition impinge on Truth too, with one on each end of the Truth spectrum, no?

Not exactly. It depends on how you define both of those words, particularly intuition. The first adjutant, the spirit of intuition, is the adjutant that makes contact with the lowest forms of mind. It has to do with quick perception, quick understanding, instinctive and reflexive behavior and self-preservation. I don’t think you mean that kind of intuition, do you? You probably mean spiritual intuition or spiritual insight?

36:5.6 1. The spirit of intuition — quick perception, the primitive physical and inherent reflex instincts, the directional and other self-preservative endowments of all mind creations; the only one of the adjutants to function so largely in the lower orders of animal life and the only one to make extensive functional contact with the nonteachable levels of mechanical mind.

Logic may not lead to truth, but I think truth is logical. I don’t think logic should be abandoned in the search for truth. TUB describes an adult form of logic which is part of truth-seeking. So, I’m not sure if it’s at one end of the truth continuum or rather an integral part of finding truth as a human being here on terra firma. I don’t think we mortals can integrate reality without logic. Even if we find truth in our souls, we have to keep it alive, not only in the spiritual realm, but in the mental and physical realms as well. We have to live on earth, not just above it.

102:6.9 Intelligent men should cease to reason like children and should attempt to use the consistent logic of adulthood, logic which tolerates the concept of truth alongside the observation of fact.103:7.3 Logic is the synthetic truth-seeking progression of the unity of faith and reason and is founded on the constitutive mind endowments of mortal beings, the innate recognition of things, meanings, and values.

Yes, good guess, I did mean spiritual insight. And thanks for cogent reflections on logic and intuition. That last quote brings to mind the question: Does “innate recognition” come only with maturity, like logic and reason. Can a babe recognize meanings and values? What is truth to a child? An evolving realization perhaps…but then truth evolves for us all, child or adult, no? Even after reaching Paradise, more will be revealed as the Universe continues to unfold via the Supreme, Ultimate and Absolute.

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Richard E Warren

[Richard E Warren]

Bonita wrote:

Whenever you see the phrase “the truth”, you know that they’re really talking about facts…

Picking up on that point, now that we know real truth lives, is a person, and since the same experience can have as many interpretations as witnesses, shouldn’t we think about amending the courtroom oath to something like this?

“Do you swear to give the facts, all the facts and nothing but the facts?”, instead of “Do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth?”

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Richard E Warren

[Richard E Warren]

Bradly wrote:

Agree that facts are true but can never be truth. Indeed many lies contain fact or that which is true and the best lies are mostly or completely “true” or based on fact…but are nonetheless deceptions, falsehoods, and lies. This is why I have come to agree with Bonita that the so called spirit of fact is an error that is disassociated from the Spirit of Truth as truth is far more than fact. The Papers are filled with facts and endless truths may be discovered by their living but not merely by their reading. Truth, like faith, is an expression of knowledge and perspective at the moments of choosing and if truth and faith do not determine the choice made, then is there truth or faith? I think truth is always based on the intersection of relationships or a personality and a situation or circumstance and the quality of such truth is measured by the reality response to one another or within situation/circumstance where the personality makes choices based on love. Is there truth without love? There are facts without love to be sure. And there is logic and intuition and insight without love. But truth requires the spirit to be real and to access and to discern and to activate by its living. Truth is not known so much as it is lived and expressed….much like love itself I think. And it is functionally dependent upon love – the foundational reality of all other reality. That which is true is not truth and truth is not truth if it is not lived and expressed. Can’t live or express fact – but we must interact with facts as well as with people and within circumstances and situations amidst our confusions and uncertainties. We can live a life based on ignorance, self importance, fear, and a whole host of unrealities but does such a life and person know truth? Truth is found in choosing and acting and its quality is determined according to the motives and intentions of the one choosing and acting I think. Truth is found in love and in service….or it will not be found at all. Great discussion…thanks to all.

Thank YOU, for great comments, and tying truth and love together. The authors equated the two and included goodness and beauty–more than once:

…Jesus revealed a God of love, and love is all-embracing of truth, beauty, and goodness…. (67.4) 5:4.6

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…He exalted love — truth, beauty, and goodness — as the divine ideal and the eternal reality…. 140:8:31

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Richard E Warren

[Richard E Warren]

Bonita wrote:

Bradly wrote: . . . This is why I have come to agree with Bonita that the so called spirit of fact is an error . . .

Hooray! Thanks Bradly. You’re the only person in the entire TUB community who agrees with me on this. It means a lot to me. And you’re right in thinking that living truth is “based on the intersection of relationships” experienced by personalities. However, the concept of truth might exist without personality, it just isn’t living until it intersects with personality (an experiential relationship). Facts are static, unchanging. Truth is alive which demands relations.

1:7.3 The concept of truth might possibly be entertained apart from personality, . . . 102:7.2 The fact of God, the divine law, is changeless; the truth of God, his relation to the universe, is a relative revelation which is ever adaptable to the constantly evolving universe.

There are only three elements in universe reality: fact, idea and relation. (102:7.2) Notice that the word truth doesn’t show up as a universe reality. The reason is because relation is truth. I don’t think it’s an accident that the Spirit of Truth is the living spirit relationship between all things and beings.

56:10.13 The recognition of true relations implies a mind competent to discriminate between truth and error. The bestowal Spirit of Truth which invests the human minds of Urantia is unerringly responsive to truth — the living spirit relationship of all things and all beings as they are co-ordinated in the eternal ascent Godward.

Curious why you think the UB community is against you in saying the supposed spirit of fact is prone to error. I’m not.

But you bring a good point with that word “relative”. The authors use it many times in association with truth:

…Truth is relative and expanding; it lives always in the present, achieving new expression in each generation of men–even in each human life…. (888:1) 79:8.8

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…All finite knowledge and creature understanding are relative. Information and intelligence, gleaned from even high sources, is only relatively complete, locally accurate, and personally true…. (42.2) 2:7.1

 

.…Truth remains unchanged from generation to generation, but the associated teachings about the physical world vary from day to day and from year to year…. (1119:2) 102:1.3

…That which apparently may be wholly true in one place may be only relatively true in another segment of creation…. (42:3) 2:7.2

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…Though reason can always question faith, faith can always supplement both reason and logic. Reason creates the probability which faith can transform into a moral certainty, even a spiritual experience. God is the first truth and the last fact; therefore does all truth take origin in him, while all facts exist relative to him…. (1125:1) 102:6.6

 

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Richard E Warren

[Richard E Warren]

Nigel Nunn wrote:

Thanks all for such an interesting discussion! Bonita wrote:

“[…] I don’t think we mortals can integrate reality without logic. Even if we find truth in our souls, we have to keep it alive, not only in the spiritual realm, but in the mental and physical realms as well. We have to live on earth, not just above it.” Hi Bonita, nicely put. If we think of truth as a technique for the assurance for pre-spiritual persons (1111.4, 101:5.14), then the “integrated reality” made accessible by Michael’s Divine Minister makes possible the very existence of such pre-spiritual persons. And this touches the heart of what I was trying to imply with those paragraphs about one of the Divine Minister’s roles. Think of the way she serves as mediator for the 3 cosmic intuitions — how she makes accessible those distinct “intuitions of validity” that complement so perfectly Michael’s Spirit of Truth. These are the intuitions that help us discover, recognize and integrate the facts of reality: the fact of the adjuster’s presence, the fact that truth is made accessible, the fact of our Father’s personality circuit, the fact of the I AM, etc. These are the sort of facts I had in mind when I described one of her roles as “Spirit of Fact”; the sort of facts that serve as reliable and enduring foundation upon which living truth can grow. Perhaps “Spirit of Fact” (or Spirit of the Meaning of Fact) was lazy shorthand. How about “Spirit of Reality Sensitivity” to define her role as mindal humidicrib, within which Michael’s Spirit of Truth can meet baby souls? PS: For me (having suffered 6 years of Latin), fact brings to mind the roots of perfection: (per) thoroughly (feci/factum) made/done. Nigel

Thanks for the comments Nigel, and the connection to the intuitions. For reference sake, here are the three cosmic intuitions:

^{(192.2) 16:6.6} 1. Causation — the reality domain of the physical senses, the scientific realms of logical uniformity, the differentiation of the factual and the nonfactual, reflective conclusions based on cosmic response. This is the mathematical form of the cosmic discrimination.

^{(192.3) 16:6.7} 2. Duty — the reality domain of morals in the philosophic realm, the arena of reason, the recognition of relative right and wrong. This is the judicial form of the cosmic discrimination.

^{(192.4) 16:6.8} 3. Worship — the spiritual domain of the reality of religious experience, the personal realization of divine fellowship, the recognition of spirit values, the assurance of eternal survival, the ascent from the status of servants of God to the joy and liberty of the sons of God. This is the highest insight of the cosmic mind, the reverential and worshipful form of the cosmic discrimination.

Richard E Warren

[Richard E Warren]

Bradly wrote:

…Why is it, I wonder, that different students of the Papers discover different truths one from another and why does one student find new truths with every reading? What role has experience and wisdom in the recognition and the utilization of truth?

Excellent questions, Bradly. Seems like the answers have to relate to that oft cited relativity of all truth out here in time and space. We begin with facts which gradually fall away ‘unconcealing’ the underlying Truth(s), no?

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Richard E Warren

[Richard E Warren]

Bonita wrote:

Bradly wrote: Or is the Mother’s Spirit that you think makes the Son’s gift operational in the ascender’s soul?

Hey Bradly. I know you aren’t talking to me, but I wanted to add something I forgot to include in an earlier post. Previously I said, “In the soul, the Holy Spirit has her own presence (34:4.7) while providing the focus for the Spirit of Truth. They work in concert as a dual spirit liaison (34:5.4).” I would like to explain why the Holy Spirit is the focus for the Spirit of Truth. Michael’s Spirit of Truth is not time-limited. He can be in contact with every mind on this planet, all at the same time. But we are not just time creatures; we are time-space creatures. He cannot be in every space on the planet at the same time. He can only be in a properly prepared mind, one prepared by the Holy Spirit. Why? One of the reasons is that the Holy Spirit is not space-limited, she provides the “space” for him to do this. Together they solve the space-time problem of reaching every one of their creatures in space, and do it all at the same time. So, other things to think about include things like: What are the differences between the Holy Spirit and Divine Minister? Does the Holy Spirit do everything the Divine Minister does? Is the Holy Spirit or the Divine Minister the same thing as the cosmic mind? Or are they different in some way? How are the adjutants related to all of this? Why do they call the Creative Spirit in the soul the Holy Spirit, but elsewhere she’s referred to by a different name? Where is the personality of the Divine Minister and how does it relate to the Holy Spirit? Where is the Michael’s personality and how does it relate to the Spirit of Truth? What’s the difference between presence and personality? Lots to discuss when it comes to understanding this, but I think it probably will detract from this thread to go into it right now. Even more questions to ask are, 1.) Are the words fact and reality synonymous? 2.) Are facts and truth the same type of reality? 3.)Are facts ever a revelation? 4.) Can fact consciousness lead to truth consciousness? 5.) Is there such a thing as knowledge of truth, or is truth always experienced? 6.)What role does the Holy Spirit play in truth experience. I have dozens more, but it’s dinner time.

Thanks for the feast of questions! Some do relate directly to this thread: “Where is the Michael’s personality and how does it relate to the Spirit of Truth? Are the words fact and reality synonymous?  Are facts and truth the same type of reality? Are facts ever a revelation? Can fact consciousness lead to truth consciousness?  Is there such a thing as knowledge of truth, or is truth always experienced? What role does the Holy Spirit play in truth experience.”

Bradly, you’re up  

 

Richard E Warren

[Bonita]

Rick Warren wrote: Does “innate recognition” come only with maturity, like logic and reason. Can a babe recognize meanings and values? What is truth to a child? An evolving realization perhaps…but then truth evolves for us all, child or adult, no?

Great questions Rick.  Innate recognition covers a lot of ground from adjutants to Adjuster, and then there’s personality.  Personality has its own innate ability to recognize morality. (112:0.11)  When it comes to the quote in question, the innate recognition of things, meanings and values, I think we’re referring to the cosmic mind in conjunction with other spirit influences, particularly the Spirit of Truth and the Adjuster.

16:6.9 These scientific, moral, and spiritual insights, these cosmic responses, are innate in the cosmic mind, which endows all will creatures. The experience of living never fails to develop these three cosmic intuitions; they are constitutive in the self-consciousness of reflective thinking. But it is sad to record that so few persons on Urantia take delight in cultivating these qualities of courageous and independent cosmic thinking.

I think we’re born with personality and volition, but the free-will of a baby is limited by the state of its mental development.  When each of the five lower adjutants make contact with the developing brain and mind of a baby is matter of opinion, but we do know that all seven make contact somewhere between age five and six. At this time the limited free-will of the baby shows willingness to be guided by spirit and thus experiences more liberty to explore its innate abilities to discern the difference between truth and error, as well as things, meanings and values.  Innate abilities are given to us by personality and mind ministry, but they evolve and need to be developed. The above quote tells us development is through reflective thinking and independent cosmic thinking.  (I’m struggling to explain this with as few words as possible, so I hope it’s making sense.)

I think children more readily recognize truth because they are more likely to trust what experience as real.  Truth is an experience, not an intellectual exercise, so truth can be experienced even by people with limited intellect as long as they have a soul.  Truth is a soul experience.

130:4.10  Knowledge is demonstrable; truth is experienced. Knowledge is a possession of the mind; truth an experience of the soul . . .

In fact, Jesus said that the spiritual simplicity, easy-believing and full-trusting child is an example of the attitude we should adopt if we wish to realize the presence of God.

155:6.12 Many of your brethren have minds which accept the theory of God while they spiritually fail to realize the presence of God. And that is just the reason why I have so often taught you that the kingdom of heaven can best be realized by acquiring the spiritual attitude of a sincere child. It is not the mental immaturity of the child that I commend to you but rather the spiritual simplicity of such an easy-believing and fully-trusting little one.

Yeah, I agree that truth evolves, it changes.  It has to change because truth is an experience of the soul and the soul dies if it doesn’t change. The soul is also a relationship, which is what truth is all about, as I tried to explain in a former post.

[Bonita]

Rick Warren wrote: Curious why you think the UB community is against you in saying the supposed spirit of fact is prone to error. I’m not.

You have never given your opinion on the subject.  Now that you have, I thank you also.

[Richard E Warren]

Bonita wrote:

Rick Warren wrote: Does “innate recognition” come only with maturity, like logic and reason. Can a babe recognize meanings and values? What is truth to a child? An evolving realization perhaps…but then truth evolves for us all, child or adult, no?

Great questions Rick. Innate recognition covers a lot of ground from adjutants to Adjuster, and then there’s personality. Personality has its own innate ability to recognize morality. (112:0.11) When it comes to the quote in question, the innate recognition of things, meanings and values, I think we’re referring to the cosmic mind in conjunction with other spirit influences, particularly the Spirit of Truth and the Adjuster.

16:6.9 These scientific, moral, and spiritual insights, these cosmic responses, are innate in the cosmic mind, which endows all will creatures. The experience of living never fails to develop these three cosmic intuitions; they are constitutive in the self-consciousness of reflective thinking. But it is sad to record that so few persons on Urantia take delight in cultivating these qualities of courageous and independent cosmic thinking.

I think we’re born with personality and volition, but the free-will of a baby is limited by the state of its mental development. When each of the five lower adjutants make contact with the developing brain and mind of a baby is matter of opinion, but we do know that all seven make contact somewhere between age five and six. At this time the limited free-will of the baby shows willingness to be guided by spirit and thus experiences more liberty to explore its innate abilities to discern the difference between truth and error, as well as things, meanings and values. Innate abilities are given to us by personality and mind ministry, but they evolve and need to be developed. The above quote tells us development is through reflective thinking and independent cosmic thinking. (I’m struggling to explain this with as few words as possible, so I hope it’s making sense.) I think children more readily recognize truth because they are more likely to trust what experience as real. Truth is an experience, not an intellectual exercise, so truth can be experienced even by people with limited intellect as long as they have a soul. Truth is a soul experience.

130:4.10 Knowledge is demonstrable; truth is experienced. Knowledge is a possession of the mind; truth an experience of the soul . . .

In fact, Jesus said that the spiritual simplicity, easy-believing and full-trusting child is an example of the attitude we should adopt if we wish to realize the presence of God.

155:6.12 Many of your brethren have minds which accept the theory of God while they spiritually fail to realize the presence of God. And that is just the reason why I have so often taught you that the kingdom of heaven can best be realized by acquiring the spiritual attitude of a sincere child. It is not the mental immaturity of the child that I commend to you but rather the spiritual simplicity of such an easy-believing and fully-trusting little one.

Yeah, I agree that truth evolves, it changes. It has to change because truth is an experience of the soul and the soul dies if it doesn’t change. The soul is also a relationship, which is what truth is all about, as I tried to explain in a former post.

Thanks Bonita! You offer much clarity and understanding here. I found people are taken aback when truth and relationship are cited in the same sentence. It takes some ‘splainin’.

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Richard E Warren

[Richard E Warren]

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Question: Does truth have an agenda?

The reason I ask, some Facebook readers have been circulating an image of a wall, with these four words emblazoned across it: Truth Has No Agenda.

What do you say?

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Richard E Warren

[Bonita]

Rick Warren wrote:Question: Does truth have an agenda?

The reason I ask, some Facebook readers have been circulating an image of a wall, with these four words emblazoned across it: Truth Has No Agenda.     What do you say? .

That’s hysterical.  I suppose it depends on how you define the word agenda.  If they mean the slang way, as in hidden agenda, then I have to agree with the slogan. Truth has no ulterior motive.  Also, if you define agenda to mean timetable, then I agree that truth has no timetable.

181:3.2 Things are time conditioned, but truth is timeless. The more truth you know, the more truth you are, the more of the past you can understand and of the future you can comprehend.

Other meanings of the word agenda, such as a general scheme or plan, a motive or intention, then I say that it probably does have an agenda.  If you consider the ascension plan to be an agenda, then truth plays an enormous role in that.

I guess what you have to ask is, “What is the purpose of truth?”  If truth is one of the three elements of reality, then I would say that truth’s agenda is reality.  The more you embrace truth, the more real you become, the further you ascend in the psychic circles.  That’s a pretty cool agenda.

 

 

[Bonita]

Oooops.  Had an afterthought just as I hit the submit button.

If truth is a person, and we know him as the Spirit of Truth, then there is absolutely no doubt that Michael/Jesus has an agenda.  He’s the way, the truth and the life.  He’s the Good Shepherd, the Master.  His agenda is that all his children make it out of his universe school and ascend all the way to Paradise.  That’s a cool agenda too.

[Richard E Warren]

Bonita wrote:

Oooops. Had an afterthought just as I hit the submit button. If truth is a person, and we know him as the Spirit of Truth, then there is absolutely no doubt that Michael/Jesus has an agenda. He’s the way, the truth and the life. He’s the Good Shepherd, the Master. His agenda is that all his children make it out of his universe school and ascend all the way to Paradise. That’s a cool agenda too.

That was my reaction too. And if God is equated with Truth, then Truth would have God’s agenda. But I like that you differentiated between definitions of agenda.

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Richard E Warren

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