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emanny3003 wrote: . . . but space is a property of matter. And matter is controlled by gravity. Therefore, the space that is a part of matter must do what matter does and matter does what gravity tells it to do.
That doesn’t sound logical to me. It’s like saying that God is love therefore love is God, which is not true. In a contest between space and matter, space will win. Not being subject to gravity, space will follow its primary transit regardless of where it is or what other forces are present within it.
“Gravity is the sole control of energy-matter.” Matter contains space. Matter moves through space. Matter takes the space it contains with it as it moves through space. Space is a part of matter. Space is a property of the matter which contains it. Space is unresponsive to gravity and yet, it is a part of that matter which contains it, it moving along with the matter that is controlled by gravity. What is illogical about that?
No, do not take what I said to be consistent with your ideas. You are mistaken about that. I attest that Havona DOES take part in space respiration. Time and space are indeed separable in any mind, including yours and mine, not just Paradise level mind. Consider the following quote:
So, you say that Havona does take part in space respiration. You agree that Havona is not a time creation, but it contains motion.
12:6.13 The Unqualified Absolute pervades all space.
This is a very clear declarative statement from TUB. What does TUB say about the presence and function of the Unqualified Absolute in Havona?
“The entire seven superuniverses participate in the two-billion-year cycles of space respiration along with the outer regions of the master universe.” (12:4.12)
No mention of Havona. Hmm? Why?
But energy is not space. Space is the womb in which energies and forces are contained. Bending energy and force around Havona does not necessarily mean that space will follow suit.
What does this mean? Is not pervaded space the container of energy and forces as you say? If you empty a bottle of water from its container it is no longer filled with water. If you empty space from its energies and forces, is it still pervaded space?
Furthermore, the midspace zones are quiescent, which means inactive and dormant. Inactive means no motion; albeit, the author concedes that there must be some relative motion, but knows little or nothing about it (11:7.2). I’m sure they would mention that midspace respires and moves if such a thing actually occurred.
12:5.4 The relatively motionless midspace zones impinging on Paradise and separating pervaded from unpervaded space are the transition zones from time to eternity, hence the necessity of Paradise pilgrims becoming unconscious during this transit when it is to culminate in Paradise 1citizenship. Time-conscious visitors can go to Paradise without thus sleeping, but they remain creatures of time.
‘Relatively’ motionless does not mean no motion. Outside Paradise there is absolutely nothing that is motionless.
Likewise, dormant means no force or energy. The midspace zone is where time transitions to eternity. (12:5.4)
If there is even the least little bit of motion there must exist force and energy, excepting unpervaded space. Does Paradise move? No. Does paradise have force and energy? Yes
This transformation takes place in the transmuting regulation channels located just below nether Paradise where there is a confluence, or merging, of pervaded and unpervaded space. This cannot be quiescent midspace if it contains transmuting regulation channels of respiring space. Moreover, we know that all force-energy originates and returns to nether Paradise, not the midspace zone. (11:5.5; 11:5.9)
12:5.4 The relatively motionless midspace zones impinging on Paradise and separating pervaded from unpervaded space are the transition zones from time to eternity…
What does the word impinging mean here? To me this means ‘touching’. Space,however, does not touch Paradise.
These transmuting regulating channels are located just below nether Paradise. The midspace zones separate pervaded space from unpervaded space and are also the transition zones from time to eternity.How do you figure that Paradise is a void? Void means completely empty. Paradise is not empty. Paradise is the place of origin for all forms of reality. Is reality a void? Is God a void?
You misunderstand my qualified definition of “void”. Paradise is not a finite object, it is not a time-space reality. It is a void of finite existence, a no-thing. It is not an object of motion as we define object. Paradise is of a singular materialization, Absolutum. This materialization is not objective for it is not definable. A material without space is of infinite density. It is of infinite potential. It has no parts and therefore does not move. Euclid defined a “point” as that which has no parts. God has no parts because He is all in all. Infinity can be fragmented but each fragment remains an infinity. Paradise is a pattern for material existence but material existence must have finite density, it must be projected in space-time. Out of this void we are are all projected in His image, literally.
After the Central Universe flashed into existence in the eternal past, God ‘breathed’ life into the clay of the time-space creations. God breaths eternal existence into his finite creation, but the eternal creation eventuated without breath, an act of space-time creation.
14:1.17 The intervening space which exists between these two circuits of gravity bodies is unique in that nothing like it is to be found elsewhere in all the wide universe. This zone is characterized by enormous wave movements of an up-and-down nature and is permeated by tremendous energy activities of an unknown order.
The “space” intervening between the gravity bodies enshrouding Havona is “unique” and is neither pervaded nor unpervaded space. I this space zone is to be found nowhere else in the Universe, what makes you think that the Central Universe can undergo space respiration as does pervaded and unpervaded space do? Do you think that this arrangement of unique materialization expands and contracts as does that superuniverses and outer space creations? Perhaps these dark gravity bodies make the central creation perfectly stable by encasing it in non oscillating space.
“Time-conscious visitors can go to Paradise without thus sleeping, but they remain creatures of time.” (12:5.4)
When we attain residential status on
Paradise, we become wards of eternity.emanny3003 wrote: “Gravity is the sole control of energy-matter.” Matter contains space. Matter moves through space. Matter takes the space it contains with it as it moves through space. Space is a part of matter. Space is a property of the matter which contains it. Space is unresponsive to gravity and yet, it is a part of that matter which contains it, it moving along with the matter that is controlled by gravity. What is illogical about that?It’s really the other way around. Space contains matter, and matter moves right through space. Why do you think matter has to take space with it? Do you have any proof? Can you measure the existence of space within an atom, label it and track it? How do you differentiate the space within the atom from the space outside the atom?
emanny3003 wrote: So, you say that Havona does take part in space respiration. You agree that Havona is not a time creation, but it contains motion.Exactly. Havona exists within space and space moves. The planets that make up the Havona system also move within space; they whirl around Paradise in a vast plane of concentric units. Of course there is motion in Havana. The only nonmoving place is Isle of Paradise. Everything else moves, including space. Midspace is something else altogether. The authors state theoretically that there must be relative motion there, but they do not, and cannot, confirm it. Midspace is the counterbalancing interval between pervaded and unpervaded space as well as that which encapsulates all of space. Technically, midspace is not space.
emanny3003 wrote: 12:6.13 The Unqualified Absolute pervades all space. This is a very clear declarative statement from TUB. What does TUB say about the presence and function of the Unqualified Absolute in Havona?The UB says the Unqualified Absolute pervades the grand universe. The grand universe is made up of the central universe and the seven super universes.
0:11.8 Unqualified Absolute is a positive reality pervading the grand universe and, apparently, extending with equal space presence on out into the force activities and prematerial evolutions of the staggering stretches of the space regions beyond the seven superuniverses.
emanny3003 wrote:What does this mean? Is not pervaded space the container of energy and forces as you say? If you empty a bottle of water from its container it is no longer filled with water. If you empty space from its energies and forces, is it still pervaded space?Unpervaded space is the vertical part of the maltese cross, it is a reservoir and is “. . . unpervaded by those forces, energies, powers, and presences known to exist in pervaded space.” (11:6.3) Havona is in the horizontal part of the maltese cross known as pervaded space which does contain all those forces, energies, powers and presences. So what’s your point exactly?emanny3003 wrote: 14:1.17 The intervening space which exists between these two circuits of gravity bodies is unique in that nothing like it is to be found elsewhere in all the wide universe. This zone is characterized by enormous wave movements of an up-and-down nature and is permeated by tremendous energy activities of an unknown order. The “space” intervening between the gravity bodies enshrouding Havona is “unique” and is neither pervaded nor unpervaded space. I this space zone is to be found nowhere else in the Universe, what makes you think that the Central Universe can undergo space respiration as does pervaded and unpervaded space do? Do you think that this arrangement of unique materialization expands and contracts as does that superuniverses and outer space creations? Perhaps these dark gravity bodies make the central creation perfectly stable by encasing it in non oscillating space.The quote is about the space within the two equal elliptical circuits of dark gravity bodies. The area between the two belts is the “unique space intrusion”. Why have you extrapolated that intrusion which is unique to the dark gravity belts to also include Havana? The quote does not say that at all. Furthermore, this “unique space intrusion” moves up and down manner and is permeated by energy. Permeated by energy means that it is pervaded space. Pervaded space participates in space respiration.
It’s really the other way around. Space contains matter, and matter moves right through space. Why do you think matter has to take space with it? Do you have any proof? Can you measure the existence of space within an atom, label it and track it? How do you differentiate the space within the atom from the space outside the atom?
41:4.2 …Gaseous, liquid, and solid states are matters of atomic-molecular relationships, but density is a relationship of space and mass. Density varies directly with the quantity of mass in space and inversely with the amount of space in mass, the space… between the central cores of matter and the particles which whirl around these centers as well as the space within such material particles.…
118:3.5 Space comes the nearest of all nonabsolute things to being absolute. Space is apparently absolutely ultimate. The real difficulty we have in understanding space on the material level is due to the fact that, while material bodies exist in space, space also exists in these same material bodies. While there is much about space that is absolute, that does not mean that space is absolute.
118:3.6 It may help to an understanding of space relationships if you would conjecture that, relatively speaking, space is after all a property of all material bodies. Hence, when a body moves through space, it also takes all its properties with it, even the space which is in and of such a moving body.
I think this is clearly stated that material bodies contain space and that space contains material bodies.
Exactly. Havona exists within space and space moves. The planets that make up the Havona system also move within space; they whirl around Paradise in a vast plane of concentric units. Of course there is motion in Havana. The only nonmoving place is Isle of Paradise. Everything else moves, including space. Midspace is something else altogether. The authors state theoretically that there must be relative motion there, but they do not, and cannot, confirm it. Midspace is the counterbalancing interval between pervaded and unpervaded space as well as that which encapsulates all of space. Technically, midspace is not space.
Certainly the spheres of Havona move as you have stated. But do have proof that the space of Havona actually moves like the motions of pervaded space? We have previously discussed that motion is not inherent in space. Do you have any proof that the space in Havona is the same space as pervaded space or are you just making an assumption? I agree that midspace is not space because space does not impinge on Paradise as does midspace. Midspace is a ‘functional extension’ of Paradise, but not a part of Paradise.
emanny3003 wrote: 12:6.13 The Unqualified Absolute pervades all space. This is a very clear declarative statement from TUB. What does TUB say about the presence and function of the Unqualified Absolute in Havona?
The UB says the Unqualified Absolute pervades the grand universe. The grand universe is made up of the central universe and the seven super universes.
Do you know if TUB says that the Unqualified Absolute pervades the space of Havona? The statement above says that the Unqualified Absolute pervades ALL space. Does it then pervade unpervaded space or is this a contradiction or a failure to qualify the different types of space (ie, pervaded, unpervaded, the unique space of between the dark gravity bodies, perhaps a different space that contains Triata in Havona)
Unpervaded space is the vertical part of the maltese cross, it is a reservoir and is “. . . unpervaded by those forces, energies, powers, and presences known to exist in pervaded space.” (11:6.3) Havona is in the horizontal part of the maltese cross known as pervaded space which does contain all those forces, energies, powers and presences. So what’s your point exactly?
My point relates to you previous assumption that space does not bend around the dark gravity bodies enshrouding Havona as does the energies and forces of pervaded space. You said that, “Bending energy and force around Havona does not necessarily mean that space will follow suit”. Are you saying that energies of pervaded space part ways as they are shunted around the dark gravity bodies?
The quote is about the space within the two equal elliptical circuits of dark gravity bodies. The area between the two belts is the “unique space intrusion”. Why have you extrapolated that intrusion which is unique to the dark gravity belts to also include Havana? The quote does not say that at all. Furthermore, this “unique space intrusion” moves up and down manner and is permeated by energy. Permeated by energy means that it is pervaded space. Pervaded space participates in space respiration.
My point here with this quote is to show that there is a unique space here, not that this unique space is that of Havona.
14:2.2 The physical realities of Havona represent an order of energy organization radically different from any prevailing in the evolutionary universes of space. Havona energies are threefold; superuniverse units of energy-matter contain a twofold energy charge, although one form of energy exists in negative and positive phases. The creation of the central universe is threefold (Trinity); the creation of a local universe (directly) is twofold, by a Creator Son and a Creative Spirit.
Havona materialization is Triata. If pervaded space comes through Havona, there would be a mixing three-fold energies with the two-fold energies of the evolutionary universes of space. Do you really think this happens? Do you still think that havona space is the pervaded space of the evolutionary universes? Pervaded space is not empty. It has matter, lots of wandering ‘calcium dust’. Do you think that all of this energy-matter of pervaded space ‘contaminates’ Havana or is it somehow filtered out?
emanny3003 wrote: I think this is clearly stated that material bodies contain space and that space contains material bodies.Yes, I’ve read those quotes. That is not what I was referring to though. I asked if you had proof, scientific proof, that matter takes space with it when it moves. I’m asking if there have been any scientific studies done that differentiate the space within the atom from the space outside the atom. Have there been any studies that tag the space and track its movements? I haven’t read or heard of any such study, but I’m not up on the latest in that particular field of science. I was asking you if you knew of any scientific proof, not what it says in the UB. I already know what it says in the UB.
emanny3003 wrote: Do you have any proof that the space in Havona is the same space as pervaded space or are you just making an assumption?No scientific proof. I don’t think anyone alive on Earth has been to Havana lately doing scientific studies. All I have is the description of pervaded space given in the revelation. Horizontal pervaded space proceeds outward FROM Paradise (12:1.3). That means that it begins at or near Paradise. In the same sentence, 12:1.3, it says that the master universe exists in six concentric ellipses within that horizontal extension of pervaded space. Then they list each of these ellipses existing within pervaded space. The Central Universe, Havona, is the first one mentioned within the six concentric ellipses of the horizontal extension of pervaded space encircling the central Isle. (12:1.4). There is no mention at all about pervaded space being different in the six ellipses. The only place where space is different is between the two circulating rings of dark gravity bodies. But that space t is still pervaded space, it only behaves differently due to the presence of the dark bodies.
emanny3003 wrote: Do you know if TUB says that the Unqualified Absolute pervades the space of Havona? The statement above says that the Unqualified Absolute pervades ALL space. Does it then pervade unpervaded space or is this a contradiction or a failure to qualify the different types of space (ie, pervaded, unpervaded, the unique space of between the dark gravity bodies, perhaps a different space that contains Triata in Havona)Check out this quote:
0:11.8 Unqualified Absolute is a positive reality pervading the grand universe and, apparently, extending with equal space presence on out into the force activities and prematerial evolutions of the staggering stretches of the space regions beyond the seven superuniverses.
The above quote clearly states that the Unqualified Absolute pervades the grand universe, and the grand universe is pervaded space. Here are two definitions of the Grand Universe, both of which include Havona:
12:1.13 The Grand Universe is the present organized and inhabited creation. It consists of the seven superuniverses, with an aggregate evolutionary potential of around seven trillion inhabited planets, not to mention the eternal spheres of the central creation.
15:2.9 The Grand Universe. Seven superuniverses make up the present organized grand universe, consisting of approximately seven trillion inhabitable worlds plus the architectural spheres and the one billion inhabited spheres of Havona.
My point relates to you previous assumption that space does not bend around the dark gravity bodies enshrouding Havona as does the energies and forces of pervaded space. You said that, “Bending energy and force around Havona does not necessarily mean that space will follow suit”. Are you saying that energies of pervaded space part ways as they are shunted around the dark gravity bodies?
There IS space between the two concentric rings of dark gravity bodies. The fact that this space zone behaves unlike any other space zone does not mean there is an absence of space there. We are told that space neutralizes gravity action, a sort of antigravity-type behavior, which apparently is unnecessary in this zone. The dark gravity bodies take alternate space paths, clockwise and counterclockwise. Between these two space paths is a semi-quiet zone of space intrusion which behaves differently. Intrusion means a forceful incursion or infringement, which means to me, that space is infiltrating this zone.
Where does this intrusion, incursion or infringement come from if not from the rest of space? And what makes its behavior different from the rest of space? Isn’t that the real question? Here’s were I begin to make theories: We know that the dark bodies neither reflect or absorb LIGHT energy; however, nothing is mentioned of other forms of energy, so we can say nothing about that. We also know that the gravity neutralizing effect of space functioning in the rest of pervaded space is probably unnecessary here due to the dark bodies which are capable, all on their own, of equalizing the lines of Havona gravity. Hence, this area of space is semi-quiet, which I theorize means that the potentials of space potency are in a “semi-quiet” state unlike anywhere else in the Grand Universe. That notwithstanding, it does not mean that space isn’t moving through this zone. It means that the behavior of space changes once it enters this zone due to the presence of the alternating paths and the enormous mass of the dark gravity bodies which seem to have their own gravity neutralizing effect.
emanny3003 wrote: Havona materialization is Triata. If pervaded space comes through Havona, there would be a mixing three-fold energies with the two-fold energies of the evolutionary universes of space. Do you really think this happens? Do you still think that havona space is the pervaded space of the evolutionary universes? Pervaded space is not empty. It has matter, lots of wandering ‘calcium dust’. Do you think that all of this energy-matter of pervaded space ‘contaminates’ Havana or is it somehow filtered out?It’s not me who thinks that Havona space is pervaded space. The UB clearly states that Havona is part of pervaded space, see quote 12:1.3-4. I don’t think it matters a hoot what stuff is contained within space or where it lies within space when it comes to space respiration, its primary motion. As I said before, when it comes to space respiration, the primary motion of space, I believe that this space motion is independent of the all the stuff that is within space. I don’t think that matter and energy follows space respiration up to Paradise, slams into the dark bodies and reroutes itself around Havona some how. It’s just space that is returning to nether Paradise, and space alone. Likewise, it is just space heading out from nether Paradise during the expansion phase of respiration, just space, and not necessarily all the stuff contained within it.
I was asking you if you knew of any scientific proof, not what it says in the UB. I already know what it says in the UB.
Sorry, I misunderstood the question. Science knows of an expanding universe and, more recently, of expanding space. The Nobel Prize in 2010 was given to a couple of chaps that showed evidence of an accelerated expansion. We know that science has evidence that most of matter is ’empty space’ but this must be merely conjecture.
There is no ‘tagging of space’. To all of our instruments space is nothing. The first measurable unit of energy is the ultimaton. We can only measure rotating energy systems. Space is gravity unresponsive and, therefore, unmeasurable.
The only place where space is different is between the two circulating rings of dark gravity bodies. But that space t is still pervaded space, it only behaves differently due to the presence of the dark bodies.
I disagree. The space between the dark gravity bodies is unique. This excludes comparison to any other space. Havona is unique and exclusive in every way conceivable from the superuniverses and outer space regions. The Havona day and Havona year are the same. This is based on the inner spheres of Havona where those sphere make one revolution around Paradise in about one thousand years. That means that these perfect spheres of Havona do not rotate. Their materialization are Triata. Motion is not inherent in space. I suspect that Triata contains no space because space is subabsolute and that would not be inconsistent with a perfect sphere of a perfect and eternal creation. They do not move except as they ‘revolve’ around Paradise.
Energies of pervaded space must be ‘filtered’ out in the transmuting channels around Paradise in order to become unpervaded.
12:1.13 The Grand Universe is the present organized and inhabited creation. It consists of the seven superuniverses, with an aggregate evolutionary potential of around seven trillion inhabited planets, not to mention the eternal spheres of the central creation.
15:2.9 The Grand Universe. Seven superuniverses make up the present organized grand universe, consisting of approximately seven trillion inhabitable worlds plus the architectural spheres and the one billion inhabited spheres of Havona.
The fact that definition of The Grand Universe is inclusive of Havona takes no account of the exclusivity of Havona.
0:11.8 Unqualified Absolute is a positive reality pervading the grand universe and, apparently, extending with equal space presence on out into the force activities and prematerial evolutions of the staggering stretches of the space regions beyond the seven superuniverses.
This does not answer my question as to whether the Unqualified Absolute functions in Havona IF in fact the space of Havona is the same pervaded space of the rest of the Grand Universe. What would be its function Havona.
There IS space between the two concentric rings of dark gravity bodies. The fact that this space zone behaves unlike any other space zone does not mean there is an absence of space there.
I did not say that. I merely restated that TUB defined it as a space that was ‘unique’ in all the universe.
Hence, this area of space is semi-quiet, which I theorize means that the potentials of space potency are in a “semi-quiet” state unlike anywhere else in the Grand Universe. That notwithstanding, it does not mean that space isn’t moving through this zone. It means that the behavior of space changes once it enters this zone due to the presence of the alternating paths and the enormous mass of the dark gravity bodies which seem to have their own gravity neutralizing effect.
I disagree. I think that Havona is essentially “hermetically sealed” off from the rest of creation. You cannot have an exclusive and perfect universe and have there be an intermingling of energies and their associated space forces of differing configurations altogether.
There is research on cloaking material called Metamaterials stated at Duke University. These material can shunt EM energies around then creating a cloaking effect. It reminded me of the dark gravity bodies.
12.1.3-4 Also says that the central universe is not a time creation. The remainder of concentric ellipses are indeed time creations. Pervaded space is associated with time. What this means to me is that Havona is exclusive of pervaded space. Nowhere in TUB does it state that havona expands and contracted relative to Paradise. These perfect spheres only revolve in single file procession on seven levels around Paradise in concentric ellipses.
Why would a Havona year be accounted for so precisely. If these Havona spheres moved towards and away from Paradise in space respirations then this year would be quite variable!
14:1.12 Besides Havona-circuit time, there is the Paradise-Havona standard day and other time designations which are determined on, and are sent out from, the seven Paradise satellites of the Infinite Spirit. The Paradise-Havona standard day is based on the length of time required for the planetary abodes of the first or inner Havona circuit to complete one revolution around the Isle of Paradise; and though their velocity is enormous, owing to their situation between the dark gravity bodies and gigantic Paradise, it requires almost one thousand years for these spheres to complete their circuit. You have unwittingly read the truth when your eyes rested on the statement “A day is as a thousand years with God, as but a watch in the night.” One Paradise-Havona day is just seven minutes, three and one-eighth seconds less than one thousand years of the present Urantia leap-year calendar.
emanny3003 wrote: Space is gravity unresponsive and, therefore, unmeasurable.So that’s my point! If you cannot measure the movements of space within matter, then there is no way to prove that space within matter moves with matter, as you say. This means that my theory that space moves independent of matter, and that includes the space within matter. Neither theory can be proven, not yours and not mine, which means you cannot randomly dismiss my theory as being ridiculous compared to your theory. They might both be wrong; we do not know.
emanny3003 wrote:I suspect that Triata contains no space because space is subabsolute and that would not be inconsistent with a perfect sphere of a perfect and eternal creation.
How can triata not contain space or not be located within space? How could triata constituted matter in the form of circulating discrete worlds remain discrete without intervening space? What is in-between these Havona circuits and Havona worlds if it is not space? And if this space is not pervaded, then what are triata energies and triata matter if not pervading substances within space?
This does not answer my question as to whether the Unqualified Absolute functions in Havona IF in fact the space of Havona is the same pervaded space of the rest of the Grand Universe. What would be its function Havona.
The UB clearly states that the Unqualified Absolute is a universal presence that pervades ALL space and the ENTIRE grand universe (0:11.8; 11:7.4; 11:8.9; 12:6.13). That would include Havona since Havona is within the horizontal arm of pervaded space and part of the grand universe, which is also clearly stated in the UB. What is the function of the Unqualified Absolute in Havona? I think these next quotes explain it quite well, the Unqualified Absolute has to do with infinity potentials. Not all potentials have been actualized on Havona. Havona is only the revealed part of the First Source and Center; it is balanced by the yet unrevealed (104:3.13), making it only a partial manifestation.
0:11.1 When the combined thought of the Universal Father and the Eternal Son, functioning in the God of Action, constituted the creation of the divine and central universe, the Father followed the expression of his thought into the word of his Son and the act of their Conjoint Executive by differentiating his Havona presence from the potentials of infinity. And these undisclosed infinity potentials remain space concealed in the Unqualified Absolute and divinely enshrouded in the Deity Absolute, while these two become one in the functioning of the Universal Absolute, the unrevealed infinity-unity of the Paradise Father.
104:4.26 Paradise is the center of the force-energy activation of the cosmos – the universe position of the First Source and Center, the cosmic focal point of the Unqualified Absolute, and the source of all energy. Existentially present within this triunity is the energy potential of the cosmos-infinite, of which the grand universe and the master universe are only partial manifestations.
Moreover, the presence of the Unqualified Absolute is focalized in the outer zone of nether Paradise. This area is the central circuit point of emanations of the Unqualified Absolute which, “. . . proceed spaceward in every direction to the outermost borders of the seven super universes”(11:5.7). In order to proceed spaceward in every direction to the superuniverses, it must pass through the central universe of Havona. The quote says EVERY direction. To go in EVERY direction does NOT mean bypassing a certain direction such as through Havona.
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118:3.6 It may help to an understanding of space relationships if you would conjecture that, relatively speaking, space is after all a property of all material bodies. Hence, when a body moves through space, it also takes all its properties with it, even the space which is in and of such a moving body.
So that’s my point! If you cannot measure the movements of space within matter, then there is no way to prove that space within matter moves with matter, as you say. This means that my theory that space moves independent of matter, and that includes the space within matter.
Bonita, you are too clever. The way you twist my words around is quite masterful. What I have said, and continue to say, is no less and no more than quote 118:3.6. You asked me for proof and I gave you that specific quote. You then said that you knew what TUB says but asked me if there is “scientific proof” that matter contains space. I said that it was conjecture but no solid scientific proof. But are we not talking revelation when we hold up TUB as axiomatic?
How can triata not contain space or not be located within space? How could triata constituted matter in the form of circulating discrete worlds remain discrete without intervening space?
I am not suggesting that Havona planets are not in space and moving in space but ‘wondering if’ triata materialization contains space as does the materialization of the remainder of the creations of time and space.
The UB clearly states that the Unqualified Absolute is a universal presence that pervades ALL space and the ENTIRE grand universe (0:11.8; 11:7.4; 11:8.9; 12:6.13).
Since the Unqualified Absolute pervades ALL space, does it pervade unpervaded space? If it does, what is its function there? I cannot find any reference to that. OK, unpervaded space is not part of the grand universe, but it did say ‘ALL’ space. Just to make a point that the authors are not always a precise and as nit picky as some of us are about these things.
0:11.1 When the combined thought of the Universal Father and the Eternal Son, functioning in the God of Action, constituted the creation of the divine and central universe, the Father followed the expression of his thought into the word of his Son and the act of their Conjoint Executive by differentiating his Havona presence from the potentials of infinity. And these undisclosed infinity potentials remain space concealed in the Unqualified Absolute and divinely enshrouded in the Deity Absolute, while these two become one in the functioning of the Universal Absolute, the unrevealed infinity-unity of the Paradise Father.
What does the word ‘differentiating” mean to you in the above quote? The potentials of infinity are to be played out in the outstretches of the outer space levels. Havona is a completed creation.
“Havona is only the revealed part of the First Source and Center; it is balanced by the yet unrevealed (104:3.13), making it only a partial manifestation.”
Partially manifested does not mean incomplete. The central universe is perfectly balanced by the yet unrevealed. It is completed, we just do not know the details because it is only partially manifested, not partially completed.
Those quotes you provided say nothing of the functioning of the Unqualified Absolute in Havona. Just because the words ‘Havona’ and ‘Unqualified Absolute’ appear in the same paragraph does not relate them directly as to the presence and function of the Unqualified Absolute in the central universe.
And if this space is not pervaded, then what are triata energies and triata matter if not pervading substances within space?
Havona space has different energies and different matter. Do you think Triata would be co-mingled with incoming different energy-matter from the superuniverses and beyond in the cycling of space respirations?
You keep dodging this one, Bonita. DOES HAVONA PARTICIPATE IN SPACE RESPIRATION CYCLES? Do you still say no even after acknowledging the following quote?
14:1.12 Besides Havona-circuit time, there is the Paradise-Havona standard day and other time designations which are determined on, and are sent out from, the seven Paradise satellites of the Infinite Spirit. The Paradise-Havona standard day is based on the length of time required for the planetary abodes of the first or inner Havona circuit to complete one revolution around the Isle of Paradise; and though their velocity is enormous, owing to their situation between the dark gravity bodies and gigantic Paradise, it requires almost one thousand years for these spheres to complete their circuit. You have unwittingly read the truth when your eyes rested on the statement “A day is as a thousand years with God, as but a watch in the night.” One Paradise-Havona day is just seven minutes, three and one-eighth seconds less than one thousand years of the present Urantia leap-year calendar.
TUB is very precise in its time description of a Paradise-Havona day. It is just seven minutes, three and one-eigth seconds and zero nanoseconds less than a thousand years of the present (c.1934) Urantia leap-year calendar.
This seems to me to be a fixed time period that would otherwise change if the Central Universe experienced space respirations. Don’t you think?
You then said that you knew what TUB says but asked me if there is “scientific proof” that matter contains space. I said that it was conjecture but no solid scientific proof. But are we not talking revelation when we hold up TUB as axiomatic?
Yes we are, but you have spouted mathematics and the physics of thermodynamics as proof that the universe only has a half a billion years to arrive at light and life due to something you called cosmic night. The point I’m trying to make is that you cannot use math or physics to understand these things. As you say, we are talking revelation here, not physics. I’m so glad you finally get that. As to quote 118:3.6, I split hairs over that to further illustrate my point. A body moving through space takes space with it, but is it always the same space? Is space still respiring through the traveling body? That information is not shared in the quote and I don’t think you can deduce an answer, nor can you find a mathematical formula or theory to prove it either way. The point being that, thermodynamics have nothing to do with determining the time frame for light and life and neither do cycles of space respiration. I never twisted your words. I may have twisted your mind, but not your words.
I am not suggesting that Havona planets are not in space and moving in space but ‘wondering if’ triata materialization contains space as does the materialization of the remainder of the creations of time and space.
Why wouldn’t it? The way I understand it (and I’m not trying to say that my way is the only way), is that the forces and energies in triata physical bodies are perfectly equalized and stable, unlike dually constructed physical bodies which have ionized particles running amok colliding with one another, attracting, repelling, bombarding and doing all sorts of unorganized and untidy things. Moreover, the central universe also employs antigravity in its organization, which I believe is a function of space.
Since the Unqualified Absolute pervades ALL space, does it pervade unpervaded space? If it does, what is its function there? I cannot find any reference to that. OK, unpervaded space is not part of the grand universe, but it did say ‘ALL’ space. Just to make a point that the authors are not always a precise and as nit picky as some of us are about these things.
Yeah, I agree. The authors force you to read the whole book and digest it. Even then we’re left wondering sometimes, and this is one of those times. As to your question about the Unqualified Absolute pervading unpervaded space, we are told that the Unqualified Absolute is a universal presence in 11:8.9. I’m taking universal to mean the entire Master Universe, but it could just mean the Grand Universe, or pervaded space (not easy to tell). In quote 11:7.4 it says that the space of the grand universe and ” . . . that of all outer regions is believed to be actually pervaded by the ancestral space potency of the Unqualified Absolute.” I’m interpreting that to mean more than just pervaded space, but also unpervaded space which would be the Master Universe as I understand it. Then finally, in 0:11.8 it sounds to me as though the “staggering stretches of space regions beyond the superuniverses” might be interpreted two ways as well. It could be referring only to outerspace, or it could be including the space reservoirs. Nevertheless, t seems to me that when they say ALL space, that they do mean both pervaded and unpervaded, otherwise, why use the word ALL?
What does the word ‘differentiating” mean to you in the above quote? The potentials of infinity are to be played out in the outstretches of the outer space levels. Havona is a completed creation.
I think if differentiation did not take place then God would be unknowable and unable to be experienced. Havona is the pattern for experiential perfection. Without it, the rest of the grand universe couldn’t ever hope to attain perfection. Because it is the pattern, it means that it is complete and stable for this universe age. Once the Supreme Being fully evolves and all the superuniverses become stable and completed, then the patterns for the next age will have evolved due to the completion of that level of experience. So I think that once the potentials become actuals, more potentials need to be made available if it’s really infinity.
Partially manifested does not mean incomplete. The central universe is perfectly balanced by the yet unrevealed. It is completed, we just do not know the details because it is only partially manifested, not partially completed.
Yeah, I agree. It is complete, but only for this universe age. In terms of infinity it is only partially manifested. But what is revealed or manifested at this time, IS perfect. That doesn’t mean that there isn’t more to manifest.
Those quotes you provided say nothing of the functioning of the Unqualified Absolute in Havona. Just because the words ‘Havona’ and ‘Unqualified Absolute’ appear in the same paragraph does not relate them directly as to the presence and function of the Unqualified Absolute in the central universe.
Okay. I was taking for granted that you know what the function of the Unqualified Absolute is. It’s function is the same whether it is in Havona or outer space. Here’s the quote I use to explain Unqualified Absolute function:
105:3.7 The Unqualified Absolute. Static, reactive, and abeyant; the unrevealed cosmic infinity of the I AM; totality of nondeified reality and finality of all nonpersonal potential. Space limits the function of the Unqualified, but the presence of the Unqualified is without limit, infinite. There is a concept periphery to the master universe, but the presence of the Unqualified is limitless; even eternity cannot exhaust the boundless quiescence of this nondeity Absolute.
You keep dodging this one, Bonita. DOES HAVONA PARTICIPATE IN SPACE RESPIRATION CYCLES? Do you still say no even after acknowledging the following quote?
You’re driving me crazy! I’ve answered this question several times but you seem to ignore my answer every time. You are the one who has been arguing against Havona’s participation in space respiration and I’ve been trying for weeks to get you to understand that it does. In post 10828 you said: “This is why I surmise that the Central Universe may not participate in space respirations.” I say Havona DOES participate in space respiration and have NEVER said otherwise.
And I’ve never dodged this question. In post 10779 I said that Havona is part of pervaded space and that all space, pervaded and unpervaded participate in space respiration. In post 10971 I wrote: “I attest that Havona DOES take part in space respiration.” You sound like a relatively young person, younger than me. You can’t be going senile just yet. I might be, but I don’t think you are. So, go back and read the entire thread to refresh your memory before you make me totally nuts.
TUB is very precise in its time description of a Paradise-Havona day. It is just seven minutes, three and one-eigth seconds and zero nanoseconds less than a thousand years of the present (c.1934) Urantia leap-year calendar. This seems to me to be a fixed time period that would otherwise change if the Central Universe experienced space respirations. Don’t you think?
Time on Havona is arbitrary based upon the circuits’ orbit around the central and stationary Isle of Paradise, and has no relation at all to space respiration. Does space respiration alter time as reckoned on this planet? No. We’re not even aware of space respiration. I don’t think your point is relevant at all.
Yes we are, but you have spouted mathematics and the physics of thermodynamics as proof that the universe only has a half a billion years to arrive at light and life due to something you called cosmic night.
I offered no proof, only conjecture for the sake of discussion. TUB offered a definition of density and it had to do with matter/mass and space. I only used that very definition to define our present space expansion as entropic, in keeping with the title of the topic stated by nelsong, “Entropy – who says!”. BTW, there are two papers, 41 and 42 that speak to these topics. You cannot divorce science from philosophy and religion.
A body moving through space takes space with it, but is it always the same space? Is space still respiring through the traveling body?
The space of a material body is a property of that body, yes it is always the same space for as long as that material body exists, unless it sells its property is a yard sale. Space moves and unless told otherwise, the space that in a property of matter moves likewise in that matter.
emanny3003 wrote:
I am not suggesting that Havona planets are not in space and moving in space but ‘wondering if’ triata materialization contains space as does the materialization of the remainder of the creations of time and space.Why wouldn’t it?
It would not be consistent with my assertion that space as a property of dual energy organization moves. I agree that Triata materialization is equalized and stable. Thus my supposition that just maybe Havona material does not contain the property of non-absolute space and all of its motions.
105:3.7 The Unqualified Absolute. Static, reactive, and abeyant; the unrevealed cosmic infinity of the I AM; totality of nondeified reality and finality of all nonpersonal potential. Space limits the function of the Unqualified, but the presence of the Unqualified is without limit, infinite. There is a concept periphery to the master universe, but the presence of the Unqualified is limitless; even eternity cannot exhaust the boundless quiescence of this nondeity Absolute.
This is your answer as to the function of the Unqualified Absolute. I can’t find any reference as to its function here in this quote, only that space limits its function. Function refers to what something actually does, and we are told it is unrevealed.
emanny3003 wrote:
TUB is very precise in its time description of a Paradise-Havona day. It is just seven minutes, three and one-eigth seconds and zero nanoseconds less than a thousand years of the present (c.1934) Urantia leap-year calendar. This seems to me to be a fixed time period that would otherwise change if the Central Universe experienced space respirations. Don’t you think?Time on Havona is arbitrary based upon the circuits’ orbit around the central and stationary Isle of Paradise, and has no relation at all to space respiration. Does space respiration alter time as reckoned on this planet? No. We’re not even aware of space respiration. I don’t think your point is relevant at all.
Time may be arbitrarily based on the Havona circuits but they do use time. Orbits take time, and their day and year are one and the same. That means that the perfect spheres of Havona do not rotate. This is clear. Their day-year is precise as to comparison to a specific Earth reference date. We do undergo space respirations and our year is affected by the change in the amount of space. The amount of space now is growing because it is coming from unpervaded space. Havona space is not increasing because their day-year is fixed. This is also clear and precludes changes in Havona space volume. If the volume of space does not change, Havona cannot have respiratory heaves. I cannot have density fluxuations. It cannot have growth and decay.
14:4.9 Decay and death are not a part of the cycle of life on the Havona worlds. In the central universe the lower living things undergo the transmutation of materialization. They do change form and manifestation, but they do not resolve by process of decay and cellular death.
Incidentally, I won’t state my age but I am a retired surgeon. I have had my differences with anesthesiologists in the past but I generally like them as a species. In fact, my son is an anesthesiologist and I love him very much.
emanny3003 wrote: The space of a material body is a property of that body, yes it is always the same space for as long as that material body exists . . .But I don’t see any concrete evidence that the space within a material body exists as long as the body exists. Are you telling me that the space within my cells is the same space I was born with? I can’t agree with that and the UB doesn’t spell that out definitively, so I don’t think either of us can be dogmatic on that point.
emanny3003 wrote: Thus my supposition that just maybe Havona material does not contain the property of non-absolute space and all of its motions.I agree that you’ve made only a supposition, a supposition that Havona space is different from all other space; yet, we are told that only the zone between the dark gravity bodies contains space different from all other space. Why wouldn’t the authors mention Havona as part of that distinction? Furthermore, Havona is not absolute; it is subabsolute, or absonite. So why wouldn’t it also be filled with non-absolute space?
105:7.2 That which is transcendental is not necessarily nondevelopmental, but it is superevolutional in the finite sense; neither is it nonexperiential, but it is superexperience as such is meaningful to creatures. Perhaps the best illustration of such a paradox is the central universe of perfection: It is hardly absolute — only the Paradise Isle is truly absolute in the “materialized” sense. Neither is it a finite evolutionary creation as are the seven superuniverses. Havona is eternal but not changeless in the sense of being a universe of nongrowth. It is inhabited by creatures (Havona natives) who never were actually created, for they are eternally existent.Havona thus illustrates something which is not exactly finite nor yet absolute. Havona further acts as a buffer between absolute Paradise and finite creations, still further illustrating the function of transcendentals. But Havona itself is not a transcendental — it is Havona.
emanny3003 wrote: This is your answer as to the function of the Unqualified Absolute. I can’t find any reference as to its function here in this quote, only that space limits its function. Function refers to what something actually does, and we are told it is unrevealed.Precisely! It is unrevealed. Therefore neither you nor I know what its function is in Havona . But the quote does tell us that the Unqualified Absolute’s presence is limitless, which means that there are no limits preventing it from being present in Havona, which is something I believe you were trying to deny. The Unqualified pervades all relative existence. Havona is an existence relative to Paradise and therefore pervaded by the Unqualified Absolute. Havona is not absolute; it is not at rest; and therefore, theoretically unfinished, which is why the Unqualified Absolute must be present.
105:3.4 The eternal Isle is absolutely at rest; all other organized and organizing energy is in eternal motion; in all space, only the presence of the Unqualified Absolute is quiescent, and the Unqualified is co-ordinate with Paradise. Paradise exists at the focus of space, the Unqualified pervades it, and all relative existence has its being within this domain.
emanny3003 wrote: Havona space is not increasing because their day-year is fixed.Yet nowhere does it say that the Havona day-year is fixed, at least I can’t find anything to support that claim. Time cannot be fixed, it is always relative. Havona time is relative to Paradise, which is motionless, or fixed.130:7.4 The motion of time is only revealed in relation to something which does not move in space as a time phenomenon.They say that Paradise-Havona time is arbitrarily recognized, but they do not say it is fixed. And when they say that the entire grand universe cannot utilize Paradise-Havona as an absolute standard because of the TOTALITY of space respiration, they are not excluding the space respiration of the Central Universe as part of that TOTALITY.Actually, there is more than one time standard on Havona. There is the Havona-circuit time and “. . . other time designations which are determined on, and are sent out from, the seven Paradise satellites of the Infinite Spirit.”(14:1.12) Although they recognize that the length of time for the inner Havona circuit to complete one revolution around Paradise is just seven minutes, three and 1/8th seconds less that 1000 years of our time, they do not say that this is a fixed time. It is merely a statement of what that time represented when the text was written.
emanny3003 wrote:This is also clear and precludes changes in Havona space volume. If the volume of space does not change, Havona cannot have respiratory heaves. I cannot have density fluxuations. It cannot have growth and decay.You’ve based your assumption concerning the volume of space upon something that cannot exist – fixed time. You’ve also linked growth and decay to space volume, something that I find no evidence of being factual. The total volume of space is finite. When one area expands another area contracts but it does not necessarily affect density. Density is a dimensionless ratio. When space expands and contracts it does not change the ratio. Therefore, expansion does not equal growth and contraction does not equal decay of matter. I don’t know where you get that idea from. Do you think that space is squeezed out of matter during the contraction phase of space respiration? I’m not following that. I’m quite sure that the same amount of space will be within any given piece of matter regardless of space respiration.As I said, I believe that space can move through matter since it is unresponsive to gravity. I do not think that the movement of space changes the ratios between space and mass making up any individual body. If those ratios changed with space respiration wouldn’t each of us be expanding right now along with space? But then again, if we do expand, that would explain why I no longer fit into some of my jeans. I used to blame that on the dryer . . . . hmmm . . . but I digress.
emanny3003 wrote: Incidentally, I won’t state my age but I am a retired surgeon. I have had my differences with anesthesiologists in the past but I generally like them as a species. In fact, my son is an anesthesiologist and I love him very much.So you love your son despite the fact that he is an anesthesiologist, huh? I generally did not have differences with the species surgeon. There was only one horribly vile, arrogant and chauvinistic chief of trauma surgery who constantly badgered me, mostly because he wanted to be in charge of the OR because he thought he was in charge of everything. He was fired. Boohoo.
Hi Bonita,
Are you telling me that the space within my cells is the same space I was born with?
No, of course not. There is not a molecule in your body that was there when you were born. When TUB states that space is a property of matter, that is a proprietary relationship. Decay is a continuous process in space-time creations and that alone would interfere with this relationship between matter and space. Disintegration is a final divorce and the assets are divided and transferred.
Furthermore, Havona is not absolute; it is subabsolute, or absonite. So why wouldn’t it also be filled with non-absolute space?
I agree with a qualification. Even though I understand your point about the absonite, you have convinced me that non-absolute space is the space that the spheres of Havona move through, but I question whether Triata materialization acually contain space as a property. Just a hunch.
Yet nowhere does it say that the Havona day-year is fixed, at least I can’t find anything to support that claim. Time cannot be fixed, it is always relative. Havona time is relative to Paradise, which is motionless, or fixed.
You are tenacious and you have convinced me on this also. Though they do tell us indirectly that the Havona spheres do not rotate, only revolve, bases on the Day-year being one and the same.
You’ve based your assumption concerning the volume of space upon something that cannot exist – fixed time. You’ve also linked growth and decay to space volume, something that I find no evidence of being factual. The total volume of space is finite. When one area expands another area contracts but it does not necessarily affect density. Density is a dimensionless ratio. When space expands and contracts it does not change the ratio. Therefore, expansion does not equal growth and contraction does not equal decay of matter. I don’t know where you get that idea from. Do you think that space is squeezed out of matter during the contraction phase of space respiration? I’m not following that. I’m quite sure that the same amount of space will be within any given piece of matter regardless of space respiration.
As I said, I believe that space can move through matter since it is unresponsive to gravity. I do not think that the movement of space changes the ratios between space and mass making up any individual body. If those ratios changed with space respiration wouldn’t each of us be expanding right now along with space?I never thought time was fixed and I did not think through the orbit of Havona spheres. However, density is mass/volume. Although the totality of space is finite, being pervaded plus unpervaded space, but pervaded space has matter-energies and forces not present in unpervaded space. Therefore, pervaded space does experience changes in density. Expansion is associated with decay and contraction with growth. During contraction there is increasing density due to the same matter-enregy per unit volume. I am specking about the matter content of space, not the space content of matter. The fact that the ultimaton (matter) has Paradise as its nucleus, tells me that the smallest unit of measurable energy also has respiration of its proprietary space.
(1155.4)105:2.11 7. The Universal One of Infinity. I AM as I AM. This is the stasis or self-relationship of Infinity, the eternal fact of infinity-reality and the universal truth of reality-infinity. In so far as this relationship is discernible as personality, it is revealed to the universes in the divine Father of all personality — even of absolute personality. In so far as this relationship is impersonally expressible, it is contacted by the universe as the absolute coherence of pure energy and of pure spirit in the presence of the Universal Father. In so far as this relationship is conceivable as an absolute, it is revealed in the primacy of the First Source and Center; in him we all live and move and have our being, from the creatures of space to the citizens of Paradise; and this is just as true of the master universe as of the infinitesimal ultimaton, just as true of what is to be as of that which is and of what has been.
So you love your son despite the fact that he is an anesthesiologist, huh? I generally did not have differences with the species surgeon.
Actually, most of my close friends were anesthesiologists. I’ll be the first to admit that too many fellow surgeons were anal sphincters. I am pleased my son chose anesthesiology. He gets to sit down and save his dogs.
Yet nowhere does it say that the Havona day-year is fixed, at least I can’t find anything to support that claim. Time cannot be fixed, it is always relative. Havona time is relative to Paradise, which is motionless, or fixed.
I have changed my thinking in the two hours since my last post. Time is relative but that can only be said of space-time creations that undergo space respirations. The orbits of the earth and moon are not fixed. The moon is moving away presently in its orbit around the earth and will eventually move closer to the point of tidal disruption. At that time the earth will become a ringed planet. Every orbit must do the same in space-time, expand and contract.
However, Havona is not a time creation. The Havona circuits move in space but do not change in time. Havona time cannot be relative to Paradise because because Paradise is timeless. Eternity is the absolute of time, Havona transcends time.
Although they recognize that the length of time for the inner Havona circuit to complete one revolution around Paradise is just seven minutes, three and 1/8th seconds less that 1000 years of our time, they do not say that this is a fixed time. It is merely a statement of what that time represented when the text was written.
You almost had me convinced of this but if this were true then you must assume that the Havona day-year is fluctuating as the orbit of the moon is doing. I don’t have a direct quote about this Havona year being constant, but they do not say that it is not. They give a specific time period as it relates to the changing orbit of Urantia to a fraction of a second. Does that not seem odd if it were not a clue of some sort?
When one area expands another area contracts but it does not necessarily affect density. Density is a dimensionless ratio. When space expands and contracts it does not change the ratio. Therefore, expansion does not equal growth and contraction does not equal decay of matter. I don’t know where you get that idea from.
41:4.2 Gaseous, liquid, and solid states are matters of atomic-molecular relationships, but density is a relationship of space and mass. Density varies directly with the quantity of mass in space and inversely with the amount of space in mass, the space between the central cores of matter and the particles which whirl around these centers as well as the space within such material particles.
This is where I get the idea regarding density. I never said that expansion equals growth and contract decay. I said the exact opposite. This is called entropy and enthalpy by science. These are well observed and data confirmed realities of nature. The dimensions of density are Kg/meters^3. In expanding space, the denominator is increasing and density decreases. In contracting space the reverse is true. But take note in the above quote where they make a distinction between mass in space and space in mass.
I do not think that Havona experiences density changes. This is because it does not experience decay. Decay is a result of decreasing density. If there is no increase in mass in Havona because it is a completed eternal creation then the amount of space in Havona must also not increase. This is the only way density in Havona will not vary and, therefore, decay is not possible.
You have made me think in depth on this Bonita and I am thankful. But I have dug in my heals on this one and still think that Havona is excluded from space respirations. Let me know if you dig up any more. I’ll keep looking for anything that will refute my theories. I have no problems changing my mind when confronted with expanding truth.
But I have dug in my heals on this one and still think that Havona is excluded from space respirations.
Okeydokey then. I wholeheartedly disagree though. If Havona is excluded from space respirations, then it means that Havona has NO space since ALL space respires . . . so the authors claim, that is. And who am I to argue with celestials? But it has indeed been an interesting discussion, so thanks for persevering.
11:6.1 We do not know the actual mechanism of space respiration; we merely observe that all space alternately contracts and expands.
When one area expands another area contracts but it does not necessarily affect density. Density is a dimensionless ratio. When space expands and contracts it does not change the ratio. Therefore, expansion does not equal growth and contraction does not equal decay of matter.
In my mind this refers only to space, not the matter that exists within it?? How else could density as a dimensionless ratio exist? Kg/M^3 is not dimensionless.
For us space is nothing and has no mass – nothing/nothing is dimensionless.
Who’s measuring this respiration anyway, somebody knows space is more than nothing but it aint me.
Hi Nelsong,
When one area expands another area contracts but it does not necessarily affect density. Density is a dimensionless ratio. When space expands and contracts it does not change the ratio. Therefore, expansion does not equal growth and contraction does not equal decay of matter.
When one area expands another contract, but one are has mass and the other does not. This is significant. It most certainly affects the density of pervaded space.
41:4.2 Gaseous, liquid, and solid states are matters of atomic-molecular relationships, but density is a relationship of space and mass. Density varies directly with the quantity of mass in space and inversely with the amount of space in mass, the space between the central cores of matter and the particles which whirl around these centers as well as the space within such material particles.
It clearly states in this quote that density varies. Density is a relationship of space and mass. Or, Mass/space, and space is not nothing, it is real.
I am not sure what you are getting at with our post.
Manny
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