What kind of influence (if any) do angels have over decisions we make?

[Brooklyn_born]

Mara wrote:

Can you be more specific? What influences are you thinking about, asking about?

Basically, what I am asking is based on your understanding can celestial forces influence or manipulate the will of men?

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What is your take on the following:

But man does not passively, slavishly, surrender his will to the Adjuster. Rather does he actively, positively, and co-operatively choose to follow the Adjuster’s leading when and as such leading consciously differs from the desires and impulses of the natural mortal mind. The Adjusters manipulate but never dominate man’s mind against his will; to the Adjusters the human will is supreme. And they so regard and respect it while they strive to achieve the spiritual goals of thought adjustment and character transformation in the almost limitless arena of the evolving human intellect.

What leads to the surrender of human will? Is there a struggle over the will of men?

BB

[Mara]

Brooklyn_born wrote:  “But man does not passively, slavishly, surrender his will to the Adjuster.”

More on creature choice – we do not “surrender” our will to the Adjuster.  We are not passive slaves of God.  We are active participants in choosing to consecrate ourselves in the highest to do the best we can do in doing the divine will.  It is my will that the divine will be done by me on earth, as it is in heaven.

111:5:5   Such a creature choice is not a surrender of will. It is a consecration of will, an expansion of will, a glorification of will, a perfecting of will; and such choosing raises the creature will from the level of temporal significance to that higher estate wherein the personality of the creature son communes with the personality of the spirit Father.

Brooklyn_born wrote:  . . . can celestial forces influence or manipulate the will of men?

Here is a reference I posted earlier.

5:6:8 . . . it remains for man himself to will the creation or to inhibit the creation of this surviving and eternal self which is his for the choosing. No other being, force, creator, or agency in all the wide universe of universes can interfere to any degree with the absolute sovereignty of the mortal free will, as it operates within the realms of choice, regarding the eternal destiny of the personality of the choosing mortal. As pertains to eternal survival, God has decreed the sovereignty of the material and mortal will, and that decree is absolute.

[Nigel Nunn]

Mara, thanks for such valuable responses to such interesting questions!

[Mark Kurtz]

Mara,

Thank you.  And to BB, I recall reading a notice in the UB, man’s choicest gift to God is to accept Sonship.  This choice is wholly our individual will and not that of any other being or personality.  The beauty of God and His Cosmos, given what is revealed over time, is the major attraction of God.  It is us who choose to accept this beauty, goodness and we recognize in our minds the truth of His vast enterprises.  There may be influence, but there is no situation in which we can “sit on the bench” and let the game be played before our eyes without our involvement.

We are told sin attracts the attention of God and His efforts increase to save the sinner.  What efforts are totaled through many different beings, including human, may influence a person, we cannot fully say.  TUB informs us seraphim are somehow involved.  The end of discussion concludes we are not to be passive with God!  We either choose to accept or otherwise we are told it takes work of mind and will to reject.

We are told to ‘get off the bench and play or die’.

 

[Bonita]

I can’t believe that anyone would entertain the notion of manipulating celestial forces.  It’s bizarre. Presumably this question is referring to the possibility of nefarious manipulation by celestial beings since I don’t think “forces” can manipulate without a will behind them.  Didn’t we cover this bull thoroughly on the thread about raping angels?  It seems as though that discussion was a total waste of time because here we are again with the same old piffle. Talk about an ancient myth refusing to die . . .

Just for the record, there are some angels who do manipulate various spiritual forces in order to produce celestial harmonies.  They’re called celestial musicians.  But they manipulate forces not persons, and they always manipulate in order to produce beauty, not chaos.

[I just cannot believe we’re really back to a discussion about raping angels . . . . it’s like a time warp or something. What is going on?]

[Brooklyn_born]

Thanks to all those with positive and respectful responses. I appreciate your opinion on the subject.

BB

[Mara]

Bonita wrote:  I can’t believe that anyone would entertain the notion of manipulating celestial forces.

I think BB is sincere in his questions, Bonita.

Brooklyn_born wrote:  Is there a struggle. . . .

Yes, a fascinating one:

(P.22 – §3) This is the true meaning of that divine command, “Be you perfect, even as I am perfect,” which ever urges mortal man onward and beckons him inward in that long and fascinating struggle for the attainment of higher and higher levels of spiritual values and true universe meanings. This sublime search for the God of universes is the supreme adventure of the inhabitants of all the worlds of time and space.

 

[Bonita]

Mara wrote:

I think BB is sincere in his questions, Bonita.

Yes, and I sincerely cannot believe that anyone in love with truth, beauty and goodness would entertain such a question sincerely.

Thoughts are important.  Dark thinking leads to dark deeds.  Even to entertain the idea of celestial manipulation of free will, sincerely or not, is, in my opinion, very dark.  Remember when the Master said, “Get you behind me?” He said that because he recognized a subtle temptation entertained within Peter’s sincere mind.  I see more than a subtle temptation behind this question of celestial manipulation, and I say, “get you behind me!”

[Mara]

Mark Kurtz wrote:  TUB informs us seraphim are somehow involved.

Yes, and Bonita points this out too.  Yes.  I, too, am fascinated by the subject of celestial influences on us.  We have tons of help on this launch-pad called earth.  Our job is to cooperate,with the proffered help.  And if you are honestly and sincerely in doubt about these matters, formulate your questions and direct them to God, himself, as you would to your best friend.

You and I are spiritual friends, otherwise we would not be in the least interested in friendly sharing with each other on this blog.  It is important for us to help each other on this subject.  We talk to each other to share our insight, knowledge and wisdom about it.  In this respect we need each other.  It is very lonely not to have other people with whom to talk regarding The Urantia Book.

And while we talk about influences, I remind you:

8:5:4  There are many spiritual influences, and they are all as one.

[Bonita]

The most powerful influence for all of us is the Father’s divine presence within our very own souls.  The Father freely bestows himself and his influence without limit or favor.  Why waste thought on anything other than this one most dynamic truth! While the Father is busy revealing himself to us within, the angels are busy revealing the combination of the Father’s love and the Son’s mercy to us from without.  How can any mind contemplate evil manipulation at the same time it is surrounded by such love and mercy.  The two ideas cannot occupy the same space without dire conflict.  It seems wise to choose light over darkness unless one is obsessed with conflict and rebellion . . .  which inevitably leads to these really inane topics about  truly ridiculous ideas like manipulative raping angels!  Aarrgh!

[Mara]

Bonita wrote:  . . . about truly ridiculous ideas like manipulative . . . angels!

I think you err, as no one is saying this on this thread.

[Bonita]

We are told that the people of Urantia suffer from the influence of primitive concepts of God .  Besides gods who, ” . . .   go on a rampage in the storm; who shake the earth in their wrath and strike down men in their anger; who inflict their judgments of displeasure in times of famine and flood . . .”(4:5.3), we also suffer from the influence of equally bad ideas like the one presented here in this thread: manipulative celestials.  If there’s any trolling going on, I would say that it is the act of putting forth these primitive and evil notions as though they were even possibilities.   Why bring it up at all?  It seems that this topic of rebellious angels trying to control people and make them do things against their will has already been thoroughly debunked.  And lest you missed it, the question is whether or not celestial forces (angels) can influence or manipulate the will of men.

 

 

 

[Mara]

Bonita wrote:  . . .the question is whether or not celestial forces (angels) can influence or manipulate the will of men.

And I think this is a worthy question, Bonita.  I edited out the word troll from my previous post, because thought it didn’t fit, thus, I re-wrote my statement. (#15026)

Bonita wrote:  Why bring it up at all?

Why not bring it up?  Each subject and question deserves discussion, even though some of us have previously done so.  I prefer to take inquiries as they  are presented here without assuming the inquirer not only has read everything on this forum, but also has digested everything.

[Bonita]

We are surrounded by spiritual influences and they are all positive.  None of those influences manipulate the will of man.  Man is the one who manipulates, unfortunately.  The word manipulate connotes control.  Personalities cannot be controlled.  Personalities often attempt to control one another, but we know how horrible that is. (Watch the news any day.) Forces, on the other hand, may be controlled and sometimes need to be controlled.  This is simple.  There’s little to digest here.

[Mara]

Brooklyn_born wrote:  Is there a struggle over the will of men?

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I am wondering what you are really asking?  Are suggesting there is some sort of tug-o-war going on over the will of men?

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