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I read the following, which prompted the question in me —what does TUB say regarding freedom of choice? Is there a backdoor to our being that allows angels to circumvent our decision making authority? Looking forward to your replies.
HOW ANGELS And “FATE” CONTROL YOU
They can’t control your thoughts but they can alter your body chemistry to manipulate your moods and emotions. Have you ever lacked the motivation to do something very important and your life was altered because of it? That was them. Have you ever been extremely upset about something minor which caused you to make a life changing decision? That’s how they push you at the path they decided. Almost every time you’ve felt an unfamiliar or surprising emotion, it was them controlling you.
BB
You always come up with interesting questions.
Brooklyn_born wrote: Is there a backdoor. . . .No. Free will is a gift.(P.71 – §3) No other being, force, creator, or agency in all the wide universe of universes can interfere to any degree with the absolute sovereignty of the mortal free will, as it operates within the realms of choice, regarding the eternal destiny of the personality of the choosing mortal.They can’t control your thoughts but they can alter your body chemistry to manipulate your moods and emotions. Have you ever lacked the motivation to do something very important and your life was altered because of it? That was them. Have you ever been extremely upset about something minor which caused you to make a life changing decision? That’s how they push you at the path they decided. Almost every time you’ve felt an unfamiliar or surprising emotion, it was them controlling you.
These sentences are poppycock. The person who wrote this is way off track and into the weeds. This person prefers not to take responsibility for his/her choices. Describing the work of angels in this manner is a twisted and completely false explanation for getting upset, for procrastination, for emotions and for behavior! How ludicrous! Mortals have the sovereignty of free will. God has decreed it. Even your Adjuster is subservient to your will.
(P.1204 – §5) The Adjusters respect your sovereignty of personality; they are always subservient to your will.
(P.1245 – §7) Angels do not invade the sanctity of the human mind; they do not manipulate the will of mortals; neither do they directly contact with the indwelling Adjusters. The guardian of destiny influences you in every possible manner consistent with the dignity of your personality; under no circumstances do these angels interfere with the free action of the human will. Neither angels nor any other order of universe personality have power or authority to curtail or abridge the prerogatives of human choosing.
Mara wrote: These sentences are poppycock.Thank you for saying that! Thank you for standing up for truth!
(Personally, I would have used even stronger language, words like: garbage, rubbish, drivel, bilge and tommyrot . . . . but alas, that only seems to encourage claptrappers to invent more elaborate blarney, warped as they are with their mendacious mind-twisting, perverse propaganda exposing their incessant fascination with meddlesome spirits, hellbent on subverting truth . . . such dross!)
Brooklyn_born wrote:. . . what does TUB say. . . .Perhaps this reference can shed more light.P.1246 – §3 In the life of the flesh the intelligence of angels is not directly available to mortal men. They are not overlords or directors; they are simply guardians. The seraphim guard you; they do not seek directly to influence you; you must chart your own course, but these angels then act to make the best possible use of the course you have chosen. They do not (ordinarily) arbitrarily intervene in the routine affairs of human life. But when they receive instructions from their superiors to perform some unusual exploit, you may rest assured that these guardians will find some means of carrying out these mandates. They do not, therefore, intrude into the picture of human drama except in emergencies and then usually on the direct orders of their superiors. They are the beings who are going to follow you for many an age, and they are thus receiving an introduction to their future work and personality association.BTW I truly enjoy thinking about the questions you ask BB.One of the most important things the angels do for us is coordinate all the impersonal spiritual influences around us and make them personally accessible. (113:3.1) Another thing the angels do for us is to augment cosmic insight (113:4.4) by manipulating the social, ethical and moral environment (113:4.1). One might wonder what the impersonal spiritual influences are that we face every day and how they manifest themselves in the environment? Impersonal spiritual influences we all have contact with include the adjutant mind circuit and the cosmic mind, along with its reality reflexes. We are told that angels cannot inject new ideas into the human mind, but they can intensify a high ideal which has already appeared within the mind (114:6.19). They do this externally, by focalizing and promoting those higher ideas within the social, ethical and moral environment. Angels are interpreters of mota for the morontia-starved mortal mind. They expose higher ideas and ideals in such a way that can be recognized by the soul, the supermind of the individual, thus augmenting the work of the Adjuster within.
They can’t control your thoughts but they can alter your body chemistry to manipulate your moods and emotions. Have you ever lacked the motivation to do something very important and your life was altered because of it? That was them. Have you ever been extremely upset about something minor which caused you to make a life changing decision? That’s how they push you at the path they decided. Almost every time you’ve felt an unfamiliar or surprising emotion, it was them controlling you.
These sentences are poppycock. The person who wrote this is way off track and into the weeds. This person prefers not to take responsibility for his/her choices. Describing the work of angels in this manner is a twisted and completely false explanation for getting upset, for procrastination, for emotions and for behavior! How ludicrous! Mortals have the sovereignty of free will. God has decreed it. Even your Adjuster is subservient to your will.
(P.1204 – §5) The Adjusters respect your sovereignty of personality; they are always subservient to your will. (P.1245 – §7) Angels do not invade the sanctity of the human mind; they do not manipulate the will of mortals; neither do they directly contact with the indwelling Adjusters. The guardian of destiny influences you in every possible manner consistent with the dignity of your personality; under no circumstances do these angels interfere with the free action of the human will. Neither angels nor any other order of universe personality have power or authority to curtail or abridge the prerogatives of human choosing.
Mara, can human free will be “influenced”?
BB
Bonita wrote: Impersonal spiritual influences we all have contact with include the adjutant mind circuit and the cosmic mind . . .Your remarks really beamed a light on the cosmic mind for me. I think I finally got it. The Infinite Spirit (Conjoint Creator, Third Source and Center) is the primal origin of the ministering spirits of space, including the angels, who in Nebadon are created by the Creative Spirit associate of Michael. And the Infinite Spirit “is absolute only in the domain of mind” . . .P.102 – §3 The Conjoint Creator is absolute only in the domain of mind, in the realms of universal intelligence. The mind of the Third Source and Center is infinite; it utterly transcends the active and functioning mind circuits of the universe of universes. The mind endowment of the seven superuniverses is derived from the Seven Master Spirits, the primary personalities of the Conjoint Creator. These Master Spirits distribute mind to the grand universe as the cosmic mind, and your local universe is pervaded by the Nebadon variant of the Orvonton type of cosmic mind.The reference above describes the distribution of the cosmic mind down to the to the Nebadon variant of the Orvonton type of cosmic mind, as further described in this one.P.195 – §2 The Urantia type of human personality may be viewed as functioning in a physical mechanism consisting of the planetary modification of the Nebadon type of organism belonging to the electrochemical order of life activation and endowed with the Nebadon order of the Orvonton series of the cosmic mind of parental reproductive pattern. The bestowal of the divine gift of personality upon such a mind-endowed mortal mechanism confers the dignity of cosmic citizenship and enables such a mortal creature forthwith to become reactive to the constitutive recognition of the three basic mind realities of the cosmos: [See 16:8:15]. . . The will creature is thus equipped to discern the fact, the law, and the love of God.The cosmic mind is impersonal. Some people both within the Urantia communities and in other groups believe they tap into the cosmic mind to receive special messages for whomever and they call such self-deluded practices channeling. Thanks Bonita for helping me understand.Greetings BB….and all!! Agree with Mara BB, you always ask the most interesting questions offering much for reflection and research into the Urantia Book. I wish you had attributed the quote you posted as its source might be an interesting clue as to its perspective; certainly it could not come by or from any student of the UB itself which spends so much time presenting the sanctity of free will, including an exhaustive presentation as to why that gift is so very important – universally. As stated already, not even God would insert himself or herself or their selves between mind and the gift of free will. I look forward to further discussion on the core meaning and value of free will – the actualization of potential and the Supreme Being are both absolutely dependent upon this gift, its function, and it ultimate result.
To your last question: “Mara, can human free will be “influenced”?”, the answer depends on the definition of “influenced”, but the short answer is no. Free will cannot be manipulated nor tricked or duped or baited and switched or influenced by any other mind or agent – including angels, midwayers, planetary princes, or system sovereigns or the Spirit of Truth or TA – no other mind possesses such power or authority or capability – no – not ever! Choices we face (as opposed to choices made by mind) may be influenced however and that’s a most interesting topic.
It is said in text that both the angels and the TA care nothing for a life of ease for their charges. Our life on this world is a life of choosing and in preparation for more, and better, choosing to come. We are here to learn and to become. The vicissitudes and challenges in life are inherent but are also presented in their way for teaching babies to sit up, and stand up, and walk, and run, and jump, and fly as a crude example of progressive attainment of experience, skill, balance, maturity, etc. We make mistakes and we are attached to the material world of that portion of our duality – material and spirit – until we mature sufficiently to learn to identify with the spirit and eternal nature of our being.
We are inherently doomed to make the same mistake over and over….until a new choice is made by new motive and intention or other realization of truth brings a new result to a new choice. But worry not, other errors remain for the same cycle of learning by choosing and identifying the result or the effects of the causes – our choices by free will; our motive, intention, priority, and our tactic and strategy choices, and our patience, and our ability to make choices that are not focused on self interest but, rather, on other’s interests and in love for others too. These are difficult lessons. Far too difficult to perfect in such a brief “semester” of school as or material life is.
So, to some degree, I do think circumstances and situations and relationship intersections ARE influenced, perhaps even manipulated in some ways, to provide us the best educational and free will experience as the guardians, TAs, and other agents of personal progress can provide. Like a parent who presents rattles and rings and then simple puzzles and tasks and toy brooms and cooking sets and then challenges of skill development and personal expression to their children, I think the angels attend to us in some similar fashion.
But it is only by our consequences and positive results TO our free will that provides any meaningful education and progress. I do wonder time to time if we are also, occasionally, “protected” from some consequences to allow more time or another opportunity to do better?
Bradly, the quote was shared off facebook. it’s one of those anonymous works that make their rounds or go viral on social media.
BB
Brooklyn_born wrote: Mara, can human free will be “influenced”?Can you be more specific? What influences are you thinking about, asking about?You ever hear of Judge Judy Sheindlin? I read her first book years ago – Don’t Pee On My Leg And Tell Me It’s Raining, 1997. That was before she became a TV celeb. She describes some of her work in NYC as a Family Court Judge. Her book is hilarious. People come up with the most outrageous reasons to explain why they did what they did. I remember one of her cases in which the accused mugged an old lady, knocked her down and stole her purse. The reason he gave for his behavior was that he had a dysfunctional upbringing. Really?Some people have no insight and don’t care. I’m not talking abut spiritual insight. Just regular insight. And they invent all manner of justifications and explanations for their own machinations. Judas was like that. He never took personal responsibility for his thoughts, his jealousies, his suspicions. He found fault in everyone but himself. He failed to increase in love and grow in spiritual grace. (P. 2056) He was a good financier and accountant for the Apostles, but that was it.When the Spirit of Truth arrived and Thought Adjusters flocked here, no evil spirits could possess any mortal mind.P.863 – §6 On no world can evil spirits possess any mortal mind subsequent to the life of a Paradise bestowal Son. But before the days of Christ Michael on Urantia–before the universal coming of the Thought Adjusters and the pouring out of the Master’s spirit upon all flesh–these rebel midwayers were actually able to influence the minds of certain inferior mortals and somewhat to control their actions.Mind is the arena of choice.(P.761) Eternal survival can be jeopardized only by the decisions of the mind and the choice of the soul of the individual himself.Mara wrote: Thanks Bonita for helping me understand.
Very happy and grateful to have been of service.
On the question of influence, I think it’s obvious that thoughts can be influenced, otherwise, why have need of a Thought Adjuster, the Holy Spirit or the mind of Jesus? We are bombarded by influences on our thoughts at all times, but free will is separate from our thoughts. Anyone who equates the thinking mind with free will doesn’t understand how it all works. Free will is the behavior, or action, part of personality and personality is not mind. The bestowal of personality liberates an individual from the fetters of antecedent causation. (5:6.9) In other words, free will is not dependent upon the cause and effect resulting from various influences on our thoughts.
0:5.11 Personality. The personality of mortal man is neither body, mind, nor spirit; neither is it the soul.
16:8.5 Creature personality is distinguished by two self-manifesting and characteristic phenomena of mortal reactive behavior: self-consciousness and associated relative free will.
And clearly, modern psychology would have you believe that we’re all victims of thought influences, powerless to choose wisely because of the overwhelming ability of things like advertising propaganda and media hype to create an instinctive herd mentality. Yes, thoughts and beliefs can be influenced. Even poor Eve allowed her thinking to be influenced. But volition is free and responsibility for choice lies squarely with the individual regardless of the onslaught of negative mind influences. Fortunately, humans are blessed with a constant barrage of positive mind influences within their very souls, if they would only tune into them; if they would only strive to discover, recognize and interpret; if they would only have the courage to exercise their personality free will to choose them, to identify with them (power-personality synthesis of the Supreme).
One of the things angels do for us is to influence us to pray. Yes, I did use the word influence. Angels influence us within our moral and ethical environment. They work to focalize moral issues, to bring them into our line of vision and make us aware of them. Moral issues grow from personality relationships, therefore socialization of the personality increases the opportunities for angels to influence our consciousness of the need for prayer in order to evaluate and solve these moral issues. Angels highlight the positive in our external environment in order that we may connect it with the positive within our inner environment. This is done through prayer, meditation and reflective thinking.
p1245:4 113:4.4 The impulse of worship largely originates in the spirit promptings of the higher mind adjutants, reinforced by the leadings of the Adjuster. But the urge to pray so often experienced by God-conscious mortals very often arises as the result of seraphic influence. The guarding seraphim is constantly manipulating the mortal environment for the purpose of augmenting the cosmic insight of the human ascender to the end that such a survival candidate may acquire enhanced realization of the presence of the indwelling Adjuster and thus be enabled to yield increased co-operation with the spiritual mission of the divine presence.
Bonita wrote: On the question of influence, I think it’s obvious that thoughts can be influenced, otherwise, why have need of a Thought Adjuster, the Holy Spirit or the mind of Jesus?Only if one is paying attention and only if there is a hunger and thirst for eternal values by way of one’s personal reach for God and that is a choice in and of itself.P.69 – §8 Eternal survival of personality is wholly dependent on the choosing of the mortal mind, whose decisions determine the survival potential of the immortal soul. When the mind believes God and the soul knows God, and when, with the fostering Adjuster, they all desire God, then is survival assured. Limitations of intellect, curtailment of education, deprivation of culture, impoverishment of social status, even inferiority of the human standards of morality resulting from the unfortunate lack of educational, cultural, and social advantages, cannot invalidate the presence of the divine spirit in such unfortunate and humanly handicapped but believing individuals.Mortals progress by the decisions they make.P.1097 – §6 Religious perplexities are inevitable; there can be no growth without psychic conflict and spiritual agitation. The organization of a philosophic standard of living entails considerable commotion in the philosophic realms of the mind. Loyalties are not exercised in behalf of the great, the good, the true, and the noble without a struggle. Effort is attendant upon clarification of spiritual vision and enhancement of cosmic insight. And the human intellect protests against being weaned from subsisting upon the nonspiritual energies of temporal existence. The slothful animal mind rebels at the effort required to wrestle with cosmic problem solving.Some people are prone to declare “My adjuster told me. . . ” or “My guide told me . . .” or “My guardian angle told me. . .” as though it were possible to segregate these influences. They tell us these influences cannot be segregated in our minds.P.95 – §7 There are many spiritual influences, and they are all as one. Even the work of the Thought Adjusters, though independent of all other influences, unvaryingly coincides with the spirit ministry of the combined influences of the Infinite Spirit and a local universe Mother Spirit. As these spiritual presences operate in the lives of Urantians, they cannot be segregated. In your minds and upon your souls they function as one spirit, notwithstanding their diverse origins.On the subject of this combined, as one, liaison of all spiritual ministry,P.96 – §2 It would also be consistent to refer to the liaison of all spiritual ministry as the spirit of God, for such a liaison is truly the union of the spirits of God the Father, God the Son, God the Spirit, and God the Sevenfold–even the spirit of God the Supreme.God has decreed the sovereignty of the material and mortal will.
P.71 – §3 Having thus provided for the growth of the immortal soul and having liberated man’s inner self from the fetters of absolute dependence on antecedent causation, the Father stands aside. Now, man having thus been liberated from the fetters of causation response, at least as pertains to eternal destiny, and provision having been made for the growth of the immortal self, the soul, it remains for man himself to will the creation or to inhibit the creation of this surviving and eternal self which is his for the choosing. No other being, force, creator, or agency in all the wide universe of universes can interfere to any degree with the absolute sovereignty of the mortal free will, as it operates within the realms of choice, regarding the eternal destiny of the personality of the choosing mortal. As pertains to eternal survival, God has decreed the sovereignty of the material and mortal will, and that decree is absolute.
Mara wrote: Only if one is paying attention and only if there is a hunger and thirst for eternal values by way of one’s personal reach for God and that is a choice in and of itself.What does this mean in terms of influencing thought? Surely one’s thoughts can be influenced by a lack of attention to what is value, as well as too much attention on what has value. Attitude certainly matters. If Eve’s attitude were different, if her attention was less one way and more another, then perhaps she would not have allowed her thoughts to be swayed by propaganda. She would not have allowed her mind to be so influenced and we would all be much better off.
I think it’s about discernment and wisdom. We must learn what to pay attention to and how to interpret it. (Here the angels may be quite useful.) Inevitably there will be many mistakes. Perhaps that is really the lesson we should learn from Eve . . . that even our models of righteous behavior can make mistakes of discernment and wisdom in the process of living a life full of all kinds of influences. We must strive to learn to recognize those influences, whether coming from our external or internal environment, which magnify the living God and his will.
Bonita wrote: She would not have allowed her mind to be so influenced. . . .Or did she think she had a better idea in her own mind, once the idea was presented to her by Serapatatia? She had secret meetings with Serapatatia, and she wasn’t supposed to do that. She accepted his idea in her own mind and it took 5 years for her to default.P.842 – §2 Influenced by flattery, enthusiasm, and great personal persuasion, Eve then and there consented to embark upon the much-discussed enterprise, to add her own little scheme of world saving to the larger and more far-reaching divine plan. Before she quite realized what was transpiring, the fatal step had been taken. It was done. [with Cano]Where was Adam during these secret meetings/conferences? And what about this plea, “. . .but my good motives and intentions are true. . . .”?P.842 – §7 Eve had told Cano of this oft-repeated warning on the fateful occasion of their secret meeting, but Cano, not knowing the import or significance of such admonitions, had assured her that men and women with good motives and true intentions could do no evil; that she should surely not die but rather live anew in the person of their offspring, who would grow up to bless and stabilize the world.(P.842). . . it constituted evil because it represented the wrong way to achieve righteous ends, because it departed from the right way, the divine plan.
Jesus said, “. . .from the heart come forth evil thoughts. . .
(P.1713) “I declare it is not that which enters the body by the mouth or gains access to the mind through the eyes and ears, that defiles the man. Man is only defiled by that evil which may originate within the heart, and which finds expression in the words and deeds of such unholy persons. Do you not know it is from the heart that there come forth evil thoughts, wicked projects of murder, theft, and adulteries, together with jealousy, pride, anger, revenge, railings, and false witness? And it is just such things that defile men, and not that they eat bread with ceremonially unclean hands.”
Sure, there are all kinds of influences out there, but you choose whether or not to go there.
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