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“Why did Jesus not write anything down?” was clearly answered in TUB.
Many types of personalities are still vulnerable to idolatry (greed is good) and sanctimonious error prone tyrannical and self-serving “false witness” judgments using what Jesus “said” to rationalize their iniquity. The dangerous Bible-thumpers who are not even “christian” – never were and never will be “christian” – got to bear a LOT of “false witness” against even the followers of Paul’s glorified Christ from the word “go” two millenia ago. That’s a lot of psychological noise that has accompanied the tip of the spear, all to boil down into a hardened “Atonement Doctrine”, and even that is worse than it was before because the individual is not trying to buy God’s forgiveness anymore – he doesn’t have to because JESUS died for his sins. Sigh.
Maybe I missed it, has there been a discussion, here, there, or anywhere else on TUB “forums” or in Study Groups about how “enlarged” is the Seventh Bestowal of Michael of Nebadon in TUB? Having the United Midwayers present a eye witness account as Part IV is a courageous move but I guess they (TUB commission) correctly “judged” that the benefits of writing it down IN CONTEXT of Parts I – III was going to far outweigh any “evil” to come along…and they were right.
This reply has been reported for inappropriate content.
To everyone else, I appoligize, but it’s time to take the gloves off. Don’t try this stunt back at me as I’m blind and so it wouldn’t do any good as my screen reader couldn’t tell me, but that isn’t the problem for Sabinatu. He suffers from a totally different malady. Maybe this will get through his thick, aragant, selfcentered head.
SABINATU, IT IS SAID THAT BY THEIR FRUITS YOU WILL KNOW THEM. BECAUSE OF PEOPLE LIKE YOU WHEN I FIRST READ THE URANTIA BOOK, I TURNED AWAY FROM IT FOR A WHILE. IT WASN’T JUST BECAUSE OF MY CONSERVITIVE FUNDIMENTALIST UPBRINGING, BUT BECAUSE IT APPEARED TO ME THAT ALL of THE URANTIA BOOK READERS WERE ARRAGANT AND SELFCENTERED. EVIDENTLY YOU SHOULD GET TO KNOW WHOEVER THOSE READERS WERE THAT I READ POSTS FROM ALL THOSE YEARS AGO. YOU’D FIT RIGHT IN. AT THE TIME, IT APPEARED TO ME AS IF I WOULDN’T WANT TO GET TO KNOW ANYONE ASSOCIATED WITH THE URANTIA BOOK BECAUSE, IF THE FRUITS THAT WERE BORNE BY THE BELIEVERS THAT I READ WERE ANY INDICATION, THE FRUITS THAT WERE BORNE BY THE URANTIA BOOK BELIEVERS WEREN’T GOOD FRUITS. NOW YOU COME ALONG AND BRING UP BAD MEMORIES. JUDGING FROM WHAT LITTLE I’VE READ, YOU ARE JUST LIKE THEM, ARRAGANT AND SELFCENTERED.
Now that I have finished with him, I’ll share some thoughts. I actually considered deleting my account because of him. The only thing that stopped me is that, though I can read the forums, for example Truthbook, I can’t post to them because of screen reader issues. In short, it was either this one or none. People like him though would cause people like me to completely turn away from the ub. It is my suggestion that he be banned from the forum permanently and his account be deleted. I am personally growing tired of him. Verry very tired of him indeed.
Chuck
I would admonish all participants on this thread to refrain from any further personal attacks and to focus on the subject of the thread. If you believe you have been unjustly treated by a fellow participant do not engage in a public conflict. You can inform the moderators by leaving a message on the Support and Suggestions forum. Persistent offenders should be ignored and left to the moderators to deal with.
chucksmith1982 wrote: …those who believed in the atonement doctrine were only after power, at least that’s what I took from it.Hi Chuck, If that’s what you think I wrote, please show me where?I did write this however:Vern wrote: …step, by bloody, historical step, to go through the necessary stages taking mankind to a state of readiness for up-stepped truth. Here we are! Spiritual progress is a process of revelation in conjunction with evolution.Vern wrote: Civilized men and women, believing Christians, have arrived at a place of elevated thinking in which their God concept is finally managing to go beyond delimiting notions of anthropomorphism. Only now do the universe controllers consider the potential of man is nearing that fortuitous threshold of relative dependability. That place of wisdom where spiritual truth can be assimilated and made actual by recognition of sonship status with God.Please give sincere thought to the truth that Jesus never taught such a doctrine as atonement.If you really follow Jesus, it means you value the substance of his teaching over the errors of Paul, an imperfect mortal, someone who never met Jesus. It is intended that truth prevail over error. Our universe family have confidence in us to make the required adjustments over time. Looking at current conditions, I’m of the view the time is ripe. Clarification of confusion is one of the stated purposes of The Urantia Book.Chuck, do you consider the material the Midwayers have included regarding the need for Christianity to make the message that Jesus came to deliver a priority, important?Sorry Vern, I went back and reread your posts. I got you confused with someone else, I think. If you want to go back and look at the quote that I thought was yours, here it is.
Begin quote. So what? Why the well-nigh hysteria in hanging on to it by people who know better? There is a motive. A cynical management of primitivism by those groping for power. End quote. Still haven’t figured out about the block quotes, so this’ll have to do. Sorry again.
As for your question, yes, I do consider the changing of Christianity important, but the only way that it can change in this regard is to destroy one of its most fundamental doctrines. That, in my view, would completely destroy the religion.
The only problem with that is what would you replace it with? Most people in any given religion are not comfortable changing religions from the one they were born into. The same holds true for whatever religious views, conservative moderate or liberal that they were raised with as well.
chucksmith1982 wrote: The only problem with that is what would you replace it with?What did Jesus come for in the first place?I don’t think It’s a matter of replacing Christianity with anything other than what it already has, but which has not yet been fully proclaimed as the main teaching.Stated several times in this topic thread previously. Jesus’ own words:“Your message to the world shall be: Seek first the kingdom of God and his righteousness, and in finding these, all other things essential to eternal survival shall be secured therewith. And now would I make it plain to you that this kingdom of my Father will not come with an outward show of power or with unseemly demonstration. You are not to go hence in the proclamation of the kingdom, saying, ‘it is here’ or ‘it is there,’ for this kingdom of which you preach is God within you.” [Paper 140:1.5, 1569:2]
Jesus laid great emphasis on the two truths of first import in the teachings of the kingdom:
- The attainment of salvation by faith, and faith alone.
- The attainment of human liberty through the sincere recognition of truth.
Jesus laid great emphasis upon what he called the two truths of first import in the teachings of the kingdom, and they are: the attainment of salvation by faith, and faith alone, associated with the revolutionary teaching of the attainment of human liberty through the sincere recognition of truth, “You shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.” Jesus was the truth made manifest in the flesh, and he promised to send his Spirit of Truth into the hearts of all his children after his return to the Father in heaven. [Paper 141:7.6, 1593:7]
Chuck, I figure you are a sincere seeker of truth and as such, are quite capable of appreciating the significance of this teaching.
This is already a fundamental teaching of Christianity.
“The kingdom of God is within you” was probably the greatest pronouncement Jesus ever made, next to the declaration that his Father is a living and loving spirit. [Paper 195:10.4, page 2084.4]
Christianity has more work to do in sharing this common statement of spiritual unity with every race, culture and creed, with all people of the world.
Vern, the only problem is we can’t agree on why he came in the first place. The Christians say he came to die for our sins, and as a rellavent example, we the ub readers say he came to enlarge our understanding of God.
Here’s a thought. The UB readership could discard the religions that we came from and form our own based entirely on the teachings found in the Urantia Book. We could found a Urantia church as well. That would happen eventually anyway, the ub itself implies it. Doesn’t it say something to the effect that in order for a religion to survive it must form a cult? That was what all religions started out as. Only trouble is that we couldn’t use the word cult as that word has a negative connotation and would turn people away. Let’s see…
No preachers/priests… Wait, we’d have to have someone to perform weddings and funerals… We’d also have to develop our own training schools… Just a thought. Oh well. It was an idea.
Here’s a thought. The UB readership could discard the religions that we came from and form our own based entirely on the teachings found in the Urantia Book. We could found a Urantia church as well. That would happen eventually anyway, the ub itself implies it. Doesn’t it say something to the effect that in order for a religion to survive it must form a cult? That was what all religions started out as. Only trouble is that we couldn’t use the word cult as that word has a negative connotation and would turn people away. Let’s see…
Why must there be a material religion to represent the Spiritual Kingdom?
(1457.2) 132:1.3 Unless the moral insight and the spiritual attainment of mankind are proportionately augmented, the unlimited advancement of a purely materialistic culture may eventually become a menace to civilization. A purely materialistic science harbors within itself the potential seed of the destruction of all scientific striving, for this very attitude presages the ultimate collapse of a civilization which has abandoned its sense of moral values and has repudiated its spiritual goal of attainment.
(1457.3) 132:1.4 The materialistic scientist and the extreme idealist are destined always to be at loggerheads. This is not true of those scientists and idealists who are in possession of a common standard of high moral values and spiritual test levels. In every age scientists and religionists must recognize that they are on trial before the bar of human need. They must eschew all warfare between themselves while they strive valiantly to justify their continued survival by enhanced devotion to the service of human progress. If the so-called science or religion of any age is false, then must it either purify its activities or pass away before the emergence of a material science or spiritual religion of a truer and more worthy order.
Can there not be a “Spiritual religion” in a material world?
(1781.1) 160:5.5 The social characteristics of a true religion consist in the fact that it invariably seeks to convert the individual and to transform the world. Religion implies the existence of undiscovered ideals which far transcend the known standards of ethics and morality embodied in even the highest social usages of the most mature institutions of civilization. Religion reaches out for undiscovered ideals, unexplored realities, superhuman values, divine wisdom, and true spirit attainment. True religion does all of this; all other beliefs are not worthy of the name. You cannot have a genuine spiritual religion without the supreme and supernal ideal of an eternal God. A religion without this God is an invention of man, a human institution of lifeless intellectual beliefs and meaningless emotional ceremonies. A religion might claim as the object of its devotion a great ideal. But such ideals of unreality are not attainable; such a concept is illusionary. The only ideals susceptible of human attainment are the divine realities of the infinite values resident in the spiritual fact of the eternal God.
What would a spiritual cult look like?
Chuck, There are people who have attempted, and perhaps continue to establish a Urantia Church. So far, my understanding this is not a popular idea. I see a danger of the Revelation falling into the same traps of authoritarian structure and ecclesiastes and just becoming another common movement. The religion of Jesus is my goal and one I suggest for everyone. His religion is spiritual and does not include a formal “house of worship”.
Discarding all details of religions might not be wise. As a reader-student, what do you see valuable and worthy of retention from the major religions? Retaining the religions for an understanding of evolutionary and revelatory progress would be a valuable history record, even if summarized. The watchword of the Universe is progress and it seems good to help people see this progress and desire it in their hearts. Jesus took the cream of the old and used it to help people see his new and better way.
Recall the first two sentences in the Foreword. We all need time to help dissolve confusion.
@Midi – you asked, “What would a spiritual cult look like?”
LOL – it would not “look” like anything material
@Mark – you wrote, “His religion is spiritual and does not include a formal “house of worship”.”
Where does Jesus forbid the building of a “house of worship”?! TUB gives a replete history of how religion – a human MIND endowment – served to inspire many developments in “science” and home making and architecture. All previous epochal revelations contributed to the elevation of the material aspects of a “house of worship”. Please clarify. Thanks.
@Chuck – you opined, “…No preachers/priests… Wait, we’d have to have someone to perform weddings and funerals… We’d also have to develop our own training schools… Just a thought. Oh well. It was an idea….”God’s Plan for humanity – origin, purpose, destiny – did include MATERIAL uplifts – they are called “Material Sons and Daughters” for a reason, no? Recording births, marriages, deaths are secular activities involving demographic facts – the “material” aspects of life. You get nifty info like this about the quantity of life that is open to “religious” interpretations about quality of life in the NOW:
http://toprightnewscom.c.presscdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/charts-obama.jpg
I’m going to kill two birds with one stone here.First, I didn’t mean discard all religions in the sense that they should be ignored. I agree that they should be retained buy the readership for historical purposes. What I meant was that we should discard them as, for example, Christians don’t live buy the old testament. They view it as a historical record, for the most part… even if they hold it to be divinely inspired. They learn from it, but they do not live by it’s laws.
As for establishing a material religion, a urantia church if you will, it would serve the same purpose as a Christian church does now.. A place where people of like minded beliefs can physically gather, perhaps on a weekly basis, for worship, study, and fellowship, much as other religious faiths do at their places of worship. As for a Urantia church building, I don’t think we’re quite that big, but perhaps home churches… The only problem is that for a lot of us, we are not within reasonable driving distance of each other. Right now the only Urantia church, and I use that term here deliberately as I’ve seen it online in describing this particular group, is Gabriel of Sadona’s group. That particular group is not held in high regard buy most ub students. Do we really want groups like that to be the face of the ub movement? Any time a seeker of truth researches the ub movement, they come across groups like that and there is no one to oppose/correct them, not on an organizational scale. And they may not know anyone who is an ub reader. Am I proposing an authoritarian movement? One like most, if not all, religious movements? No, I am not. What I am proposing is as I described above, a place/society/organazation, like a church for example, with physical locations specifically set aside where we are free to openly and fully share our beliefs with other like minded believers.
Sabinatu wrote: Having the United Midwayers present a eye witness account as Part IV is a courageous move…Hi Sab, this is a very interesting point you raise. Jesus paid very close attention to not leaving any written record of his life. It makes sense that he wanted to maximise personal contact and have all those souls saved for the kingdom who would then act as leaven to grow in spirit, pass on his message of salvation one generation to the next, person-to-person, face-to face.Now 2,000+ years on, the United Miwayers have gifted us with the truthful account, the first-hand record of Jesus’ Life and Teachings to set the record straight.Consider the significance of this?For all things there is a season. The time is ripe for this written record to correct the accumulated errors of the centuries, with clarifying light of truth.I well understand that there are those still who love not the truth, and will attempt to thwart it, distort and twist it. However, it is as futile as attempting to stop the incoming tide on a full moon.Michael is sovereign of Nebadon and his message to the planet of his final bestowal experience will not be denied. Rejoice and be exceedingly glad at the good news of eternal destiny freely given to whosoever will accept it.chucksmith1982 wrote: Vern, the only problem is we can’t agree on why he came in the first place.Why not?Spirit unity is the flavour of brotherhood. We don’t have to think alike to be spiritually alike. Surely you and I accept the fact we have the same creator parent? Qualifies us members of the same universe family who can have a personal relationship with the Father and with each other.It is a glorification of the uniqueness of personality that we differ. It matters little what differences we may have on details of interpretation as to what is personally significant, as long as our values match when it comes to the Father—focus of our innermost heart’s desire—core of our faith.It is my conviction, though the ways of the world manifest the exact opposite, that we have come to the end of inequality and the flawed construct by those who would perpetuate immoral behaviour through forceful means. Violation of a another person to gain unholy advantage over them is a sin no longer to be tolerated. I view the atonement doctrine in such a way. The priests should cease peddling falsehood if they want to change the downward trajectory of Christianity.Armed with truth we are now equipped with spiritual weapons sufficient to conquer the world. If the church will not change, the spiritually motivated populace will render the church irrelevant.Pentecost, with its spiritual endowment, was designed forever to loose the religion of the Master from all dependence upon physical force; the teachers of this new religion are now equipped with spiritual weapons. They are to go out to conquer the world with unfailing forgiveness, matchless good will, and abounding love. They are equipped to overcome evil with good, to vanquish hate by love, to destroy fear with a courageous and living faith in truth. Jesus had already taught his followers that his religion was never passive; always were his disciples to be active and positive in their ministry of mercy and in their manifestations of love. No longer did these believers look upon Yahweh as “the Lord of Hosts.” They now regarded the eternal Deity as the “God and Father of the Lord Jesus Christ.” They made that progress, at least, even if they did in some measure fail fully to grasp the truth that God is also the spiritual Father of every individual. [Paper 194:3.11, page 2064:3]
Jesus’ Father is also our Father. The power of this ennobling fact is sufficient to sustain each believer through every challenge with the sublime power to forgive personal injuries and keep sweet in the midst of the gravest injustice. This is the secret of a better civilization—overcoming evil with good.
Pentecost endowed mortal man with the power to forgive personal injuries, to keep sweet in the midst of the gravest injustice, to remain unmoved in the face of appalling danger, and to challenge the evils of hate and anger by the fearless acts of love and forbearance. Urantia has passed through the ravages of great and destructive wars in its history. All participants in these terrible struggles met with defeat. There was but one victor; there was only one who came out of these embittered struggles with an enhanced reputation — that was Jesus of Nazareth and his gospel of overcoming evil with good. The secret of a better civilization is bound up in the Master’s teachings of the brotherhood of man, the good will of love and mutual trust. [Paper 194:3.12, page 2064:4]
Once religion was exemplified by man seeking for God, now we witness man still searching for God, with the augmented spectacle of God also seeking for man and finding him.
Up to Pentecost, religion had revealed only man seeking for God; since Pentecost, man is still searching for God, but there shines out over the world the spectacle of God also seeking for man and sending his spirit to dwell within him when he has found him. [Paper 194:3.13, page 2065:1]
The dominance of religion by an exclusively male enclave is in its terminal stages. Christianity must become inclusive of women as equals with men, in spirit and in fact. The monopoly of ministry of religious service by men is inconsistent with the spirit of equality.
Before the teachings of Jesus which culminated in Pentecost, women had little or no spiritual standing in the tenets of the older religions. After Pentecost, in the brotherhood of the kingdom woman stood before God on an equality with man. Among the one hundred and twenty who received this special visitation of the spirit were many of the women disciples, and they shared these blessings equally with the men believers. No longer can man presume to monopolize the ministry of religious service.… [Paper 194:3.14, page 2065:2]
MidiChlorian wrote: The only ideals susceptible of human attainment are the divine realities of the infinite values resident in the spiritual fact of the eternal God.Hi Midi, the spiritual quest is a personal experience only constrained by the depth of individual commitment—freewill choosing. “When you once begin to find God in your soul, presently you will begin to discover him in other men’s souls and eventually in all the creatures and creations of a mighty universe” discovery based upon having the desire to contemplate such eternal realities in the first place.
Vern, I was using the we in the broadest possible sence, humanity. A Christian will not fellowship with an openly urantia book reader without trying to convert him to his religion. It seems as if every religion has their own view of Jesus. We have ours, the Christians have theirs, the Muslims have theirs… And no one is willing to say lets’ just agree to disagree and leave it at that.
Religions are not willing to say that we all worship the same god in different forms because they are all to busy saying I am better than you are and I’m the truth and your not. It’d be nice if they would though.
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