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Can’t prove by direct quotes so many things and beings if not all that have to do with the ascension plan tend to be in groups of seven starting at the top and stepping down to us lowly tadpoles. Whats the lowest order of seven that has anything to do with animal and human response to same – the Adjutants. I suppose I’m guilty of reading between the lines, otherwise all men are created equal and that’s not possible or logical.
thinking again about this maybe it was something to do with how the leaders of the Sangik races expressed their concept of God: The Red Sangik leader called him the great spirit, I’d have to look up the others.
But a close connection of Sangiks to Adjutants made sense to me at some point in my reading adventure.
Am I alone and off base with this idea? What do you think?
I’ve been trying to come up with a delicate way to express my thoughts on this matter and the following is the best I can do, so I hope there’s no offense.Can’t prove by direct quotes
That’s because they don’t exist.
so many things and beings if not all that have to do with the ascension plan tend to be in groups of seven starting at the top and stepping down to us lowly tadpoles
That’s because the number seven is based upon the “associative possibilities mathematically inherent in the three persons of Deity” (16:0.1). But just because there’s seven of this, or seven of that, doesn’t mean that everything appearing in groups seven are all directly related by number. If that were so, the first adjutant, (and as you and Nigel claim, the indigo race, which incidentally is not the first race, the red race is), would also have to be related to the first superuniverse; to Master Spirit Number One; to the first of the seven circuits of Havona; to Supreme Executive Number One; to the first of the seven Supreme Power Directors; to this or that first world . . . I could go on and on. Of course none of that can be true. Plus! we have eight races, not seven!
Whats the lowest order of seven that has anything to do with animal and human response to same – the Adjutants.
That’s because the adjutants are mind spirits involved in the development of character, which is multifactorial. The physical world is dominated by the number ten, the spirit world by number seven (42:9.2), and DNA is dominated by the number twelve. (36:2.11) Character is inherited through DNA (12), then perfected through mind ministry (7) and personality choice (1) while living in the physical world (10). Lots of numbers to choose from there.
I suppose I’m guilty of reading between the lines,
No, I think you just swallowed Nigel’s metaphysics hook, line and sinker. Which is why I have a cow over this stuff. It’s the same type of phenomenon that exchanged a hybrid Mithras-Christos Savior for Jesus, which was subsequently swallowed hook, line and sinker by half the world. Ya gotta be careful with metaphysics. It’s not real. It just seems real to the lower mind.
. . . otherwise all men are created equal and that’s not possible or logical.
So you’re saying that if each of the races are not dominated by a particular adjutant mind ministry, then all men are “created equal”? That the only thing that makes humans unequal is the influence of a particular adjutant? Where does character come into this? Character is genetic. It’s built into the DNA, which is based on the number twelve. There are not twelve adjutants.
This is a topic for another thread, but I’ll ask anyway. What makes one race superior over another? If racial superiority is genetic and all adjutants make contact with human mind (otherwise it wouldn’t be human), then wouldn’t superiority have to do with the quality of response to the totality of mind ministry rather than the quantity of one particular part? And isn’t quality a measure of divinity? (0:1.2) – the response to Deity, which is spiritual? And isn’t mind the intervening ministry between one’s physical genetic character and one’s progressively perfecting spiritual character (aka divinity attainment, an achievement of the total personality)?
Rightly or wrongly I have always assumed the term used in this line: “The confusion about the experience of the certainty of God arises out of the dissimilar interpretations and relations of that experience by separate individuals and by different races of men.” – meant different cultures of people rather than races as determined by color.
Aren’t they saying that different races of men have different interpretations of their religious experiences? I agree that it tends to be cultural when the members of a given race live in close proximity to one another. But now that races are commingled and scattered all over the globe, there still remains a specific flavor of worship response that can be identified as this race or that. TUB mentions that there are “definite social tendencies” of the different races that persist even on the mansion worlds. (48:6.22)
The purpose of the different races is to provide ” . . . desirable variations in mortal types” in order to afford “. . . an otherwise unattainable expression of diverse human potentials” (51:4.4). But isn’t it true that human potentials were exhausted prior to the arrival of Adam and Eve, the violet race? So what is it today that makes the races different in their interpretation of religious experience and does it matter? Wouldn’t the basis of expression still be genetic, or physical – the style by which spiritual experiences are expressed within the physical world? On morontia levels is there still a difference? TUB says yes, I think.
It would seem that the Mansion World distinction must only be effective or relevant during the earlier mortal epochs. This might provide important emotional continuity for such souls as I doubt our new morontial bodies perpetuate racial distinctions…but again I generalize from ignorance. If not adjutant related, then either the mortal mind or the soul would need some differential or distinct relational response and recognition related to the Thought Adjuster? Mystery to me.
The seven racial wings of the resurrection hall, I admit, have mystified me for many reasons. If each race represents a “mortal type” then I can understand there being different resurrection needs for each type. But as the races combine in various ways, how do they determine which wing you’re resurrected in? My hobby is genealogy and I did the DNA thing a few years ago. Everyday I get DNA matched to 20-50 new cousins. It’s remarkable the variety of sources of DNA in my relatives. Only a very rare few are 100% of anything. In fact, there are more that have a mixture of everything. So what determines race today? For instance, the greatest portion of my DNA is from England, Wales and Northwestern Europe, which means I’m mostly blue/white. Am I going to wake up in the blue wing of the resurrection hall? I wish I knew, not that it matters.
I guess the heart of it is, how does race make a difference on the morontia level of reality? I think it has to do with character. The soul is the survival character of the personality. Since it is a co-created character, then there must be a racial flavor stemming from the original DNA inherited character traits we have our parents to thank for (not happy about inheriting my mother’s). That would explain why some undesirable vestiges of character need to be corrected or polished on the mansion worlds.
I’m not sure what happens in the later epochs when folks begin to translate instead of die. By then the planet is supposed to be one race or very close to it, yet everyone who dies a natural death goes to mansion world number one and there’s no mention of changing the resurrection hall over time, unless I missed it, which is possible. Also, are the resurrection halls on the other mansion worlds racially segregated too? I’ll have to go back and refresh my memory. At some point it seems the racial thing must dissipate and no longer be relevant, but I can’t recall at the moment. And what wing do they assign people like Andon and Fonta who existed prior to the colored races? I don’t think the revelators explained that.
Any association between me and Nigel is coincidence
as for superior inferior I can’t think about it like that, but differences, certainly. It’s all good, beautiful and true.
Seems that discussion of racial differences lights the fire, difficult to have reasonable discussion but that wasn’t my point really.
i think I said the different Sangiks tend to favor an Adjutant not be dominated by.
think about it this way: the Adjutants tend to reflect individuality associativity and unity
take courage and worship – aren’t these an expression of unity?
dont you see unity in the red Sangik by the description of their traits and charistics and when their leader refers to god as spirit? Or the great spirit? Spirit is unity.
other Sangiks tend to favor individuality and others associativity. I read it in their traits and charistics. Maybe my mistake.
The six Adjutants. And the seventh, seems reasonable it should unify all.
metaphysics is dangerous but it is also a tool. We use it because there is no alternative and can easily be wrong, move on and keep learning.
is it metaphysics that happens when we recognize superadditives?
There’s just one thing I want to know. If the orange race favored moral stamina, spiritual bravery and the urge of evolutionary ascension, why are they extinct?And maybe one other thing. Are you defining superadditve as the phenomenon of putting two substances together and getting an entirely new substance as in this quote:(141.4) 12:9.3 Mathematics, material science, is indispensable to the intelligent discussion of the material aspects of the universe, but such knowledge is not necessarily a part of the higher realization of truth or of the personal appreciation of spiritual realities. Not only in the realms of life but even in the world of physical energy, the sum of two or more things is very often something more than, or something different from, the predictable additive consequences of such unions. The entire science of mathematics, the whole domain of philosophy, the highest physics or chemistry, could not predict or know that the union of two gaseous hydrogen atoms with one gaseous oxygen atom would result in a new and qualitatively superadditive substance — liquid water. The understanding knowledge of this one physiochemical phenomenon should have prevented the development of materialistic philosophy and mechanistic cosmology.
Or, do you mean the phenomenon of squaring the effect of personality association as in this quote? (Which is exponential but not superadditive, I don’t think):(1477.1) 133:5.6 Mathematics asserts that, if one person stands for a certain unit of intellectual and moral value, ten persons would stand for ten times this value. But in dealing with human personality it would be nearer the truth to say that such a personality association is a sum equal to the square of the number of personalities concerned in the equation rather than the simple arithmetical sum. A social group of human beings in co-ordinated working harmony stands for a force far greater than the simple sum of its parts.
An example of super additive could be – while retaining my thoughts about Adjutants in regard to (individuality, associative and unity) as well as those Sangik that I think tend to favor one over the other: the “association” between fact and goodness is truth, truth being the super additive. We recognize this super additive and have the ability to know it when we experience it. But it’s not tangable, measurable and likely a bit different for all observers. Is it metaphysical? I don’t like to think about it that way but I could if I let myself.
what Adjutants tend to be more associative – or what Sangik lean more toward associativity ?
why orange became extinct I have no idea but one thought that lingers is that the idea of “unity” or the Adjutants of courage and wisdom – courage tends to be in the moment, the here and now where wisdom is a long term thing. I don’t think that explains their extinction. Probably just lost too many battles.
Better than extinct because the brain is too small eh?
But Orange must not be completely extinct.
From 103:8:1 ,
(1140.1, 103:8.1) “Although both science and philosophy may assume the probability of God by their reason and logic, only the personal religious experience of a spirit-led man can affirm the certainty of such a supreme and personal Deity. By the technique of such an incarnation of living truth the philosophic hypothesis of the probability of God becomes a religious reality.”
For me, this highlights beautifully the distinction between those of our personal experiences which are “too deep for words”, and our discussions about those experiences. As usual, this distinction is clarified and amplified in the paragraph immediately following: 103:8.2
(1140.2, 103:8.2) “The confusion about the experience of the certainty of God arises out of the dissimilar interpretations and relations of that experience by separate individuals and by different races of men. The experiencing of God may be wholly valid, but the discourse about God, being intellectual and philosophical, is divergent and oftentimes confusingly fallacious.”
Bonita wrote:
“The reality of religious experience is a personal revelation. But isn’t 103:8.2 interesting in that it declares that race influences a person’s religious experience.”
I think 103:8.2, is saying that it’s our “dissimilar interpretations and relations of that experience“, not the experience itself, which is subject to racial or cultural distortion. The point being that our personal experience of our Father is personal, not intellectual.
Bradley wrote:
“It would seem that the Mansion World distinction must only be effective or relevant during the earlier mortal epochs. This might provide important emotional continuity for such souls […]”
Yes, I think that’s the idea. Given 117:5.7,
(1286.5, 117:5.7) “[…]. In the mortal experience the human intellect resides in the rhythmic pulsations of the adjutant mind-spirits […]”
if humanity’s biological and cultural branches can in subtle ways be distinguished by their characteristic affinity for, and response to, adjutant ministry, this could surely be accommodated in our initial mansion world experience. So as not to rock our world too much, too soon
And this might explain the need for those Racial Interpreters (48:6.22, 553.3) Bonita mentioned:
“TUB mentions that there are “definite social tendencies” of the different races that persist even on the mansion worlds. (48:6.22)”
Nigel
. . . . the “association” between fact and goodness is truth, truth being the super additive.
I don’t understand this and I can’t find anything like it in the Revelation. I thought truth is associated with beauty and goodness, which are all part of faith, value and relation. Facts are associated with things, science and reasoning. The third triad is that middle ground which includes philosophy, ideas and meanings which is supposed to bridge the gap between the two other triads.
There’s nothing superadditive about it that I can see, but to be honest, I still don’t know how you’re using that word. Truth is something that can only be discerned in the soul. Are you saying the soul is superadditive? If so, I agree. The soul is a qualitatively new reality created by the combination of two – totally unexpected like the creation of liquid water from the combination of gaseous atoms. But while the soul itself is superadditive, truth, beauty and goodness I think are exponential qualities.
But it’s not tangable, measurable and likely a bit different for all observers. Is it metaphysical?
The soul is not metaphysical. What the material mind does in its attempt to explain religious experiences in the soul can be twisted and turned by metaphysics in an attempt to jam it into physical reality so it appears to fit. And that, in my opinion, is because of the lack of the appreciation of the morontia level of reality which can only come with soul growth, circle progress, or death.
Metaphysics is what the material mind does in its attempt to understand the mysterious realm of spiritual experience within morontia reality which has no direct corollary in the material realm. It’s the material mind trying to create meanings out of what is experienced in the morontia mind (soul). The experience is real but the interpretation of the experience can be meta-morphed by the physics of material reality. Meta- means to change the order of something. Metaphysics changes the morontia order of reality into the physical order of reality, and in doing so, it naturally becomes distorted, or morphed. And in the human mind, morphing often includes myth.
what Adjutants tend to be more associative – or what Sangik lean more toward associativity ?
What is associativity? Are you talking about mathematical associative principles, about nonlinear thinking, or are you talking about associations with people/things ? It’s not clear to me. And isn’t the second adjutant, the spirit of understanding, the one responsible for automatic association of ideas? Incidentally, ideas are part of the middle triad of philosophy, morals, meanings, etc.
that the idea of “unity” or the Adjutants of courage and wisdom – courage tends to be in the moment, the here and now where wisdom is a long term thing.
Sorry, I’m not making any sense of that either. Why have you linked unity with adjutants 3 and 7? Isn’t personality the unifier? And wisdom is about past, present and future, right? This is what wisdom does: “. . . utilize the co-ordination of all their past experience and present opportunities for the acquisition of all of everything that all of the other six mental ministers can mobilize in the mind of the organism concerned.”(36:5.12) And isn’t courage about fidelity and stamina, which are long-term things designed to urge the personality to seek growth and progress?
(402.5) 36:5.8 3. The spirit of courage — the fidelity endowment — in personal beings, the basis of character acquirement and the intellectual root of moral stamina and spiritual bravery. When enlightened by facts and inspired by truth, this becomes the secret of the urge of evolutionary ascension by the channels of intelligent and conscientious self-direction.
But Orange must not be completely extinct.
The quote below uses the word extinct, but I agree, there must be remnants out there. We had an orange man as Speaker of the House not long ago.
(513.10) 45:4.7 5. Porshunta, the oracle of the extinct orange race and the leader of this people in the worship of “The Great Teacher.”
But none of this gets to my original question which is, what is it about race that influences religious experience enough to be carried through to the mansion worlds? My current thinking on the subject has to do with character. The soul is our morontia character and the mansion worlds are designed for continuing growth of character after death. But character, even material character inherited from our DNA, is more than just mind, or adjutants. TUB describes the character of the orange race in this way:
(723.9) 64:6.10 2. The orange man. The outstanding characteristic of this race was their peculiar urge to build, to build anything and everything, even to the piling up of vast mounds of stone just to see which tribe could build the largest mound.
What is it about the urge to build that influences religious experience? Or is it religious experience that influences the urge to build? I suppose it probably works both ways. And incidentally, there is no single adjutant responsible for the urge to build; not that I can find, that is. So it looks like the character of the orange race is not directly related to any one particular adjutant, right? Instead, I think it is a particular characteristic expression of life in its totality. Life is minded, but life is not mind and mind is not life.
For the orange race I think the urge to build was an effort to transcend, piling up stones in an effort to get to heaven so to speak.
a different way to interpret this urge is to understand Free Masonry. More of an art. Building beautiful structures transcends our existence here because we are told about beautiful structures on Mansion worlds and beyond.
For the orange race I think the urge to build was an effort to transcend, piling up stones in an effort to get to heaven so to speak.
I get what you’re saying. But isn’t the effort to transcend related to the soul where the Spirit attempts to inspire such an up-reach? Isn’t the building urge a creative urge? And isn’t it the personality that imparts qualities of creativity in its relations with the inner life of the soul? (56:4.2; 111:4.8; 111;4.11-12; 112:1.19)
What I’m getting at is that the urge to build is primarily a character trait of the personality. When it’s applied to an entire race, every personality in that race of people has a propensity toward the same urge. It’s a creative urge and creativity is not directly derived from adjutant mind ministry. Creativity may utilize adjutant mind ministry, but its not its source. Am I making sense?
For the orange race I think the urge to build was an effort to transcend, piling up stones in an effort to get to heaven so to speak.
I get what you’re saying. But isn’t the effort to transcend related to the soul where the Spirit attempts to inspire such an up-reach? Isn’t the building urge a creative urge? And isn’t it the personality that imparts qualities of creativity in its relations with the inner life of the soul? (56:4.2; 111:4.8; 111;4.11-12; 112:1.19) What I’m getting at is that the urge to build is primarily a character trait of the personality. When it’s applied to an entire race, every personality in that race of people has a propensity toward the same urge. It’s a creative urge and creativity is not directly derived from adjutant mind ministry. Creativity may utilize adjutant mind ministry, but its not its source. Am I making sense?
yup, making sense.
But what Spirit was inspiring these ancient orange Sangiks?
I really don’t think creativity was on their mind although we can certainly refer to this urge to build as creative.
squirrels build nests, is that creative? What Adjutant urge is this a response to.
But what Spirit was inspiring these ancient orange Sangiks?
The same spirit who inspires us, the Holy Spirit and the Adjuster. (Of course, we now have the Spirit of Truth to round things out.) These were human beings. To be referred to as human means all 7 adjutants are functioning and a soul is born. The Holy Spirit is the essence of the morontia mind/soul (12:8.7). And, if Andon and Fonta had Adjusters, then one must presume many of the Sangiks did too, being that they were more advanced evolutionary-wise.
I really don’t think creativity was on their mind although we can certainly refer to this urge to build as creative.
Can’t we say that purposeful action is dependent upon thought? And if you agree this is true, then the urge to build was indeed on or in their minds. The question is where did it originate? Just like us, Sangiks had two minds.
squirrels build nests, is that creative? What Adjutant urge is this a response to.
Nest building is a survival or self-perpetuation urge, part of the sex-urge, or self-reproductive urge which preserves the species. That would be due to the foundational #1 adjutant which preserves and directionalizes evolution.
36:5.6 1. The spirit of intuition — quick perception, the primitive physical and inherent reflex instincts, the directional and other self-preservative endowments of all mind creations; the only one of the adjutants to function so largely in the lower orders of animal life and the only one to make extensive functional contact with the nonteachable levels of mechanical mind.
Ok
but the Adjutant influences are a bit easier to observe in our animal cousins because of the missing free will and personality. Some species build nests and others do not. This suggests the urge to build is more than the sex urge.
Spiders build webs to catch prey and eat. A different Adjutant response?
Some higher forms don’t build anything, don’t have any response at all to the urge to build.
Some lower forms can only respond to that most basic non teachable mind that drives single celled organisms. But then again, this same nonteachable mind must influence every cell in the body of the most complex organism, no?
And that’s kind of my thoughts about the ancient Sangiks and the Adjutants. The six primary Sangiks tended to respond differently or preferentially were drawn to the different Adjutants because of racial and or biologic features that could have been unified by an Adamic biologic uplift. It makes sense to me but I can’t find direct quotes to support my thinking.
This suggests the urge to build is more than the sex urge.
The only reason to build a nest is to lay an egg which is part of the sex-urge.
Spiders build webs to catch prey and eat. A different Adjutant response?
Nope. It’s still self-preservation. It’s still adjutant #1. Gotta eat to live.
Some higher forms don’t build anything, don’t have any response at all to the urge to build.
That’s because nest and web building are not caused by the urge to build, but by the urge to survive. The self-preservation instinct takes different forms according to the needs of the animal. Quick reflexes prevent a lot of animals from becoming prey. It also helps them hunt and catch prey. Each according to their need.
Some lower forms can only respond to that most basic non teachable mind that drives single celled organisms. But then again, this same nonteachable mind must influence every cell in the body of the most complex organism, no?
That’s right. Each and every cell in our bodies is influenced by life itself, Physical Controller mind ministry and sometimes adjutant #1 ministry. Individual cells have self-preservation mechanisms as do complex organisms made up of many cells, all working together for preservation of the whole.
. . . but I can’t find direct quotes to support my thinking.
That’s because they don’t exist.
In your opinion, which one of the Sangik races preferentially responds to ” . . .primitive physical and inherent reflex instincts . . .” (36:5.6)? May I suggest you don’t say because it would be highly insulting to that race of people.
“That’s because they don’t exist.”
certainly the quotes don’t exist but that don’t mean I’m totally wrong.
is there a quote that captures the below concept that I think we can agree on?
we become minded when the fertilized egg morphs into a living single cell and this same mind is part of the matured being made of billions of cells, each of which are minded by the same ministry.
“In your opinion, which one of the Sangik races preferentially responds to ” . . .primitive physical and inherent reflex instincts . . .”
the book quotes that one but again, Adjutant influence is all good and necessary, it’s not good to think about lower and higher nor is it good to think about biological response in the same way. It’s all good and necessary. None of it is equal but all are potentially unifiable.
Also, free will allows every race or person to favor the animal if desired, I witness this daily. A Violet race would likely be much more efficient at taking advantage of all seven on a level that we (or maybe just me) can only hope for.
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