The Dangers of Democracy

[Mara]

Bonita wrote:

I wasn’t trying to put words in your mouth Keryn.  I was asking you if that’s what you were saying, since that’s how I understood what you wrote.  I was asking for clarification. Did you see the question mark at the end of the sentence which begins:  “. . . are you saying???”  It’s a sincere question and not worthy of such a snarky reply.  I’m offended.

Keryn wrote: Bonita, you followed that up with “That’s fascinating. Would you mind explaining why?” which implies that you are stating what I said as a fact. But that’s fine – I certainly wasn’t being “snarky” when I said I would appreciate if you would refrain.  I was making a sincere request. With regard to “Isn’t the goal to have no nation more powerful than another??” (Complete with 2! question marks. —  Ha, NOW I’m being snarky.    ) Sure.  “The goal”.  The achievement of which is a long way off.  As I said, I expect we have many more wrong turns before we get even close to reaching the goal when it comes to a global system of government.

Excuse me, but . . . I think you two know each other HERE on this forum, and what good comes out of this unpleasantness?  You are both excellent contributors.  Why muddy up the discussion?  Where is kindness?

Kindness, where are you???

145:2.8  [. . .] “Do you not realize that the hope of a better nation — or a better world — is bound up in the progress and enlightenment of the individual?”

[Keryn]

Mara,

I take no offense at this exchange between Bonita and I.  It’s hard to smile in text, but I enjoy a good banter and it’s all in good humor.  No worries.  I hope Bonita takes my comments in the same spirit of fun.

Thanks for advocating kindness, something that we can all always use more of.

[Gene]

Higher education system biased toward the communist lure of utopia, the disease of political correctness, emphasizing gender deviance and same sex families, drugs, smart phones and video games, destroying history, progress for the sake of progress, de-masculinization of men, looking for equality as opposed to equal opportunity when everyone knows equality don’t exist anywhere in the universe, mental weakness when dealing with real human issues like superior/inferior. And there is more.

all distractors to real democracy and true liberty.

[Bonita]

Keryn wrote:

I take no offense at this exchange between Bonita and I.  It’s hard to smile in text, but I enjoy a good banter and it’s all in good humor.  No worries.  I hope Bonita takes my comments in the same spirit of fun.

Yup, I agree.  It’s all in good fun.  Part of becoming friends is feeling free to share your thoughts without fear.

[Bonita]

Gene wrote:

Higher education system biased toward the communist lure of utopia, the disease of political correctness, emphasizing gender deviance and same sex families, drugs, smart phones and video games, destroying history, progress for the sake of progress, de-masculinization of men, looking for equality as opposed to equal opportunity when everyone knows equality don’t exist anywhere in the universe, mental weakness when dealing with real human issues like superior/inferior. And there is more. all distractors to real democracy and true liberty.

Yeah, but I see all that as just background noise. Evolution cannot be stopped.

[Mara]

Bonita wrote: Yup, I agree.  It’s all in good fun.

Thanks so much for clearing that up.  I never would have guessed it was all in good fun.

Gene wrote:

all distractors to real democracy and true liberty.

Democracy is a group thing, and operates under the rule of law. But true liberty has to do with the individual, and operates to the extent the individual cooperates with the will of God, worships God and serves his fellows.  True liberty has to do with God.  It’s the reward of evolutionary progress.

Definition of true liberty:

54:2.5   [. . . ] true liberty, the right to love and be loved, the privilege of worshiping God and of serving his fellows.

54:1.2  True liberty is the quest of the ages and the reward of evolutionary progress. False liberty is the subtle deception of the error of time and the evil of space. Enduring liberty is predicated on the reality of justice — intelligence, maturity, fraternity, and equity.

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54:1.6  True liberty is the associate of genuine self-respect; false liberty is the consort of self-admiration. True liberty is the fruit of self-control; false liberty, the assumption of self-assertion. Self-control leads to altruistic service; self-admiration tends towards the exploitation of others for the selfish aggrandizement of such a mistaken individual as is willing to sacrifice righteous attainment for the sake of possessing unjust power over his fellow beings.

Whereas the survival of democracy. . .

71:2.19   [. . .] is dependent on successful representative government; and that is conditioned upon the practice of electing to public offices only those individuals who are technically trained, intellectually competent, socially loyal, and morally fit. Only by such provisions can government of the people, by the people, and for the people be preserved.

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71:2.1  Democracy, while an ideal, is a product of civilization, not of evolution.

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Democracy isn’t a product of evolution?

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The dictatorial political state. . .

195:8.4   […]The tyrannical and dictatorial political state is the direct offspring of scientific materialism and philosophic secularism. Secularism no sooner frees man from the domination of the institutionalized church than it sells him into slavish bondage to the totalitarian state. Secularism frees man from ecclesiastical slavery only to betray him into the tyranny of political and economic slavery.

[Gene]

Liberty must be relative otherwise we would not be talking about it and people would have never given up everything to have it on any level – true or almost true.

The democracy that at one time embraced liberty is rapidly becoming history.

So typical of Urantia evolution:  one baby step forward and ten giant steps back. Oh how I really try to see the big picture.

[Richard E Warren]

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Thanks all for taking the time to respond. Hearing your take on these things always broadens understanding and reflects the wonderful diversity of not just us, but all of humanity.

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I want to reply to a couple of comments made. First I want say that no one caught the crux of my intention in posting this topic, that is, the importance of the Mandarin translation. I probably should take most of the blame, for mislabeling it, The Dangers of Democracy.

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As I see it, China now has the ingredients and competent leadership to accomplish its goal of becoming a, if not the, global superpower by 2050. The one thing it doesn’t have is a broad-based, God-centered, religion worthy of such a goal. The UB was intended for all the world. And one of the most important tasks, in my opinion, of our generation of readers, is translation. My greatest concern in this regard, about the global dissemination of the Urantia Papers, is that we are dilatory in translating them. We all know what a difference the UB made in our individual lives. That difference can be, must be, taken to the global level.

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Secondly, my opinion that the American experiment with democratic rule is failing was neither pessimistic nor gloomy. I believe it was merely factual, as Keryn rightly discerned. As a lifelong global observer, the trends have become obvious. The Pax Americana, like the Pax Romana did in its day, rose, peaked, and now falls. To verify this one needs look no farther than the five dangers of democracy the Melchizedek lays out in Paper 71. On each point Western style democratic rule is devolving into populism and flirting with autocracy. No doubt humanity will someday achieve true representative government, but only when the individual and his nation eschews banality, acquires the wisdom to chose competent leaders, understands the purpose and goals of social organization, takes seriously the power and responsibility of the vote, and is not swayed by populist demagoguery.

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I wish Western style democracy was not failing, and that I am wrong to predict its imminent demise. The next few years should reveal the true direction that global governmental organization is taking. I have a decade or two left to live on Urantia, or less. One never knows. But my grandchildren have six or seven left. I pray for their strength and forbearance. Surely many difficult decisions, many trying circumstances lay in Urantia’s path. The main one, I think, has to do with the preeminence, or the degradation, of Truth. Truth with a capital T.

 

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Richard E Warren

[Bonita]

Still can’t agree with your assessment of western style democracy Rick, whatever you think that is.  I’m seeing the situation turned completely the other way.  I think we are now starting to go forward instead of backward.  Just the beginnings of it though.  I have to say it is still fragile, but I’m filled with optimism for the first time in decades.  I think you are wrong and there’s no need for wishful thinking.  Hope is alive!

[Bonita]

Rick Warren wrote:

On each point Western style democratic rule is devolving into populism . . .

How are you defining populism and why do you think it is a devolution?

[Richard E Warren]

Bonita wrote:

Rick Warren wrote:

On each point Western style democratic rule is devolving into populism . . .

How are you defining populism and why do you think it is a devolution?

This, from Wikipedia, fits my definition:

…appearing to empathize with the public through rhetoric or unrealistic proposals in order to increase appeal across the political spectrum.

Do you not see that as devolution from the ideals of representative governance? Or at least as debasement?

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Richard E Warren

[Bonita]

Thanks for the response.  The dictionary definition of populism is the following:

• support for the concerns of ordinary people: it is clear that your populism identifies with the folks on the bottom of the ladder | the Finance Minister performed a commendable balancing act, combining populism with prudence.
• the quality of appealing to or being aimed at ordinary people

Don’t you think support for the concerns of ordinary, average people are important?  When Jesus lived on earth, didn’t he live his life as an ordinary person?  Why do you think God and the universe insist that their divine Sons live ordinary lives? Why did Michael himself insist on appearing as an average man? Why was an average, ordinary couple chosen for his incarnation?

20:6.2 From a material viewpoint, these human-divine Sons live ordinary lives with just one exception: They do not beget offspring on the worlds of their sojourn; that is a universal restriction imposed on all orders of the Paradise bestowal Sons.

122:1.3 It was the plan of Michael to appear on earth as an average man, that the common people might understand him and receive him; wherefore Gabriel selected just such persons as Joseph and Mary to become the bestowal parents.

119:7.7 Jesus’ human parents were average people of their day and generation, and this incarnated Son of God was thus born of woman and was reared in the ordinary manner of the children of that race and age.

Populism is about ordinary and average people.  Aren’t we told in TUB to encourage the average man because he is the backbone of civilization?

68:6.11 Will Urantia rulers have the insight and courage to foster the multiplication of the average or stabilized human being instead of the extremes of the supernormal and the enormously increasing groups of the subnormal? The normal man should be fostered; he is the backbone of civilization and the source of the mutant geniuses of the race.

82:6.5 Race mixtures of the average or superior strata of various peoples greatly increase creative potential, as is shown in the present population of the United States of North America.

 

 

 

 

[Van Amadon]

Thank you for this thread Rick.

I have to agree with Bonita’s stand on this issue. We’re moving forward, not backward.

Here’s the first definition Google provides for “populism” and is in my opinion what’s driving the political situation regarding Western Democracy in our time.

 

pop·u·lism

ˈpäpyəˌlizəm/<input height=”14″ src=”data:image/png;base64,iVBORw0KGgoAAAANSUhEUgAAABwAAAAcCAQAAADYBBcfAAABN0lEQVR4AZ3UT4vNYRwF8M+dieS3uNtb7r1lKZPNTNlMWY13gDeBrih7L2A2yka2ItlZYWGrjBJF+VdYjEJTFsI1x9qTX/Ptfp716dmc71m2tzfGPvmibAaI+OOmiZLTdgERETtO2dMJPwVwzHVzEbsu64cVOyIAWPNCRJzVa+yjNEGGHoj4bd1/DT2XNgg6WyJeO6Blv0fSE2Tqu4iZxsBtaYPuOQTgkogPlgGATWmDiG1HAZ1vIjZI/wNEvNMBronYXFJz2HnAQ3C8+mM8BUxEbA9EvwEI+OEg2OcX5ksWVA++AozA13rwDmANvK0G37sK2ACPawX4bKUpwMlK5e4aAbjYVG6xktfP6klzVqVD7twXMbdenw5WPRMR5+pjtepG/1jV5vGMkgv/DPItU3XgpSuOaPwFsUTQA47vSZQAAAAASUVORK5CYII=” type=”image” width=”14″ />

noun

1. support for the concerns of ordinary people.

   “it is clear that your populism identifies with the folks on the bottom of the ladder”

   • the quality of appealing to or being aimed at ordinary people.

 

Ordinary people have “had it” with being told their racist, uneducated, and treated as if they’re not able to see the blatant crimes being committed by their government representatives.

The people are just cleaning their house.

 

 

 

 

[Richard E Warren]

Bonita wrote in part:

Don’t you think support for the concerns of ordinary, average people are important? When Jesus lived on earth, didn’t he live his life as an ordinary person?

Too bad his kind of populism isn’t popular, hasn’t even been tried according to UB.

Richard E Warren

[Gene]

…appearing to empathize with the public through rhetoric or unrealistic proposals in order to increase appeal across the political spectrum.<sup id=”cite_ref-2″ class=”reference

The person doing that was defeated.

People who lust for power stick out like a sore thumb and should be removed from politics. It’s not to difficult to sense altruism in our leaders.

 

 

[Author]

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