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Posts
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Thank you Bradley
great quotes.
This adventure is almost too good to be true. Who in their right mind could refuse.
Julian, what a relief and satisfaction have you back at your desk. Like many brotherhousians undisturbed warms, attentive and loving regards to you.
Thank you Andre for your loving words of encouragement. I really appreciate the friendship of my fellow Forum participants!
VanAmadon wrote: In order to choose truth to survive, does one need to grow side by side with those who choose error?
Bonita’s reply: “We do NOT require actual evil-doers around us in order to recognize truth, beauty and goodness, or to choose survival. All that is necessary is the potential for evil-doing in order to provide moral options for free-will choice. All we need is the ability to recognize potential evil in order to select the alternative.”
132:2.10 The possibility of evil is necessary to moral choosing, but not the actuality thereof. A shadow is only relatively real. Actual evil is not necessary as a personal experience. Potential evil acts equally well as a decision stimulus in the realms of moral progress on the lower levels of spiritual development. Evil becomes a reality of personal experience only when a moral mind makes evil its choice. I think another reason God permits evil-doers to exist side by side with perfection-seekers is because of the benefits for soul growth, which takes time. Also, this situation presents moral dilemmas which are the very fuel for soul growth.
Me here: I think there are two more reasons for the tares and wheat to grow alongside one another: First, the tares are protected by the inviolate nature of their free will….so what’s the alternative?
More importantly, the wheat is even more important to the tares than the tares are to the wheat!!! The faith children demonstrating the fruits of the spirit are models and examples (or at least confounding and irritating paradoxes) for those who are not responding to the mind ministries of the Spirit….or those who are but become more emboldened in their quest to transfer the seat of identity from materialism and attachments to spiritualization!! The wheat of every generation plants the seed for the next and the next all the way through all the evolutionary mortal epochs! The seed which falls on good soil propagates more seed and slowly chokes out all the tares in the fields of harvest to come.
We are all on a spectrum of reality-ization and we all need one another for encouragements and examples. We are taught that the life Jesus led is our greatest example (and in all of Nebadon as well). I think in some ways, I see the wheat and tares not only as individual souls/minds or the collective “field” of souls/minds but also every evil I have committed and its reciprocal effects are in contrast within my own awareness/consciousness with the hope, faith, love, truth, beauty, goodness, and service choices I have made. Those tares will be left behind in the fields of the temporal past when the shores of Mansonia are reached. Likewise, every soul that survives will arrive without such baggage themselves….and will no longer be tares at all!!!!! = )
Bradly wrote: Those tares will be left behind in the fields of the temporal past when the shores of Mansonia are reached. Likewise, every soul that survives will arrive without such baggage themselves….and will no longer be tares at all!!!!! = )That’s really interesting. I know that everything of value survives, but is that all that survives? I have lived my life with the assumption that I will eventually have to answer for the mistakes I’ve made in this life. I don’t mean being punished, but to come to terms with those folks I’ve wronged in any way, and also those folks who have wronged me whom I’ve ignored or only partially forgiven. I think those things will have to get patched up in the next life. I don’t think the errors we make in person-to-person relationships will just vanish without some kind of reconciliation and resolution. In the next life we are going to run into all the people who irritated us in this life. I’m not sure they won’t still be irritating in the next either, then again, they might be less irritating, we’ll see. At least that’s what I’m hoping happens when I run into my mother . . . not to mention a few abusive, misogynistic men whom I’ve managed to escape from. I’m not looking forward to running into any of these people, that’s for sure . . . but it’s gonna happen . . . you can count on it.
(151:4.1) The next day Jesus again taught the people from the boat, saying: “The kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field; but while he slept, his enemy came and sowed weeds among the wheat and hastened away. And so when the young blades sprang up and later were about to bring forth fruit, there appeared also the weeds. Then the servants of this householder came and said to him: ‘Sir, did you not sow good seed in your field? Whence then come these weeds?’ And he replied to his servants, ‘An enemy has done this.’ The servants then asked their master, ‘Would you have us go out and pluck up these weeds?’ But he answered them and said: ‘No, lest while you are gathering them up, you uproot the wheat also. Rather let them both grow together until the time of the harvest, when I will say to the reapers, Gather up first the weeds and bind them in bundles to burn and then gather up the wheat to be stored in my barn.'”
If we identify those who choose error or those who knowingly choose not to participate in God’s reality beyond this life, with the tares and weeds of the wheat fields, isn’t that just nature at work or the natural out working of being free-will creatures, that naturally many will not be interested in the true way of life and thereby, knowingly forfeit survival?
I know how difficult it is for people of faith, people like us, to fathom why anyone would refuse the invitation to eternal life. But it appears that it does happen, and as a part of nature, maybe it should be expected of some, or perhaps many, to reject eternal life.
(195:9.6) Primitive man lived a life of superstitious bondage to religious fear. Modern, civilized men dread the thought of falling under the dominance of strong religious convictions. Thinking man has always feared to be held by a religion. When a strong and moving religion threatens to dominate him, he invariably tries to rationalize, traditionalize, and institutionalize it, thereby hoping to gain control of it. By such procedure, even a revealed religion becomes man-made and man-dominated. Modern men and women of intelligence evade the religion of Jesus because of their fears of what it will do to them—and with them. And all such fears are well founded. The religion of Jesus does, indeed, dominate and transform its believers, demanding that men dedicate their lives to seeking for a knowledge of the will of the Father in heaven and requiring that the energies of living be consecrated to the unselfish service of the brotherhood of man.
Many people don’t like it when demands are made of them.
(112:5.9) This does not mean that human beings are to enjoy a second opportunity in the face of the rejection of a first, not at all.
(149:1.9) Many others sought healing for wholly selfish purposes. A rich widow of Tyre, with her retinue, came seeking to be healed of her infirmities, which were many; and as she followed Jesus about through Galilee, she continued to offer more and more money, as if the power of God were something to be purchased by the highest bidder. But never would she become interested in the gospel of the kingdom; it was only the cure of her physical ailments that she sought.
However many, who fail to survive, it’s not because they don’t qualify, that they’re not good enough, it’s because they’re thoroughly and naturally uninterested.
195:9.6 Modern men and women of intelligence evade the religion of Jesus because of their fears of what it will do to them—and with them.
196:2.9 He was not a moral skeptic; he viewed man positively, not negatively. He saw most men as weak rather than wicked, more distraught than depraved. But no matter what their status, they were all God’s children and his brethren.
Some of those who reject God in this life may still get another opportunity to see him in another light. I don’t think God holds fear, weakness and distress against people, just like he doesn’t hold ignorance, immaturity and delusion against them. It all comes down to what is really in their hearts and none of us know this for sure. Only God does and I think we should leave it all up to him.
That doesn’t mean we shouldn’t lock up antisocial psychopaths, nor should we be naively nice to amoral and unethical individuals. But all people have the potential to survive, and I personally leave it at that. It doesn’t mean I have to like all people (and believe me, there are a lot of people I don’t like); it does, however, mean I have to accept them as God’s children and my brethren until God decides otherwise. I’m not privy to all the influences that contribute to their decision making, such as ignorance, immaturity and delusion.
16:7.7 Man’s choosing between good and evil is influenced, not only by the keenness of his moral nature, but also by such influences as ignorance, immaturity, and delusion. A sense of proportion is also concerned in the exercise of virtue because evil may be perpetrated when the lesser is chosen in the place of the greater as a result of distortion or deception. The art of relative estimation or comparative measurement enters into the practice of the virtues of the moral realm.
After all, I myself am grossly ignorant of much that has to do with God, I am also immature and possibly delusional at times, and I don’t feel the least less loved because of it. I’m sure many of the things I think, say and do make his hair stand on end, but that doesn’t change my survivability. If Jesus told us to forgive seventy times seven, how much more will God forgive, even those who seemingly reject him now? Not that we should presume on God’s forgiveness, not at all.
So yes, soul death is possible in this life and I don’t doubt that it happens, but I sincerely believe that these things are God’s business. I also sincerely believe that he is abundantly forgiving and would never abandon a soul unless he’s made every effort and decides there is absolutely nothing left to salvage . . . a completely empty soul, morontially bankrupt. Either way, it’s up to him. But note in the quote below, even after God has abandoned the soul and its death is recorded, the angels still attend to the personality . . . so what does that say to us and what we should do?
112:3.2 1. Spiritual (soul) death. If and when mortal man has finally rejected survival, when he has been pronounced spiritually insolvent, morontially bankrupt, in the conjoint opinion of the Adjuster and the surviving seraphim, when such co-ordinate advice has been recorded on Uversa, and after the Censors and their reflective associates have verified these findings, thereupon do the rulers of Orvonton order the immediate release of the indwelling Monitor. But this release of the Adjuster in no way affects the duties of the personal or group seraphim concerned with that Adjuster-abandoned individual. This kind of death is final in its significance irrespective of the temporary continuation of the living energies of the physical and mind mechanisms. From the cosmic standpoint the mortal is already dead; the continuing life merely indicates the persistence of the material momentum of cosmic energies.
G’day all,
#24682 Bonita (and believe me, there are a lot of people I don’t like) … “and do make his hair stand on end”
… Bonita, believe me as well red those lines was so identical of my peevish frown. I can’t help laughing of those assertions. Lately, I woke-up and said “what the heck, seems like I have general animosities towards organizations (profit/non-profit, politics,socials) and persons.
Must be experiencing Truth/Realities mingle with immaturity/maturity, mercy/disdain, pardon/blame …
xoxo
André
…with the tares and weeds of the wheat fields, isn’t that just nature at work or the natural out working of being free-will creatures, that naturally many will not be interested in the true way of life and thereby, knowingly forfeit survival?
VanAmadon wrote:But it appears that it does happen, and as a part of nature, maybe it should be expected of some, or perhaps many, to reject eternal life.What *nature at work* are you talking about? With all the divine help within and impinging upon humans, it seems to me unnatural to reject God’s plans.70:9.1[Part III]Nature confers no rights on man, only life and a world in which to live it. Nature does not even confer the right to live, as might be deduced by considering what would likely happen if an unarmed man met a hungry tiger face to face in the primitive forest. Society’s prime gift to man is security.The revelators tell us religion is normal and natural to us, but optional. Think of all the help we have! It’s amazing, stunning!5:5.5 [Part I]Evolutionary religion is the mother of the science, art, and philosophy which elevated man to the level of receptivity to revealed religion, including the bestowal of Adjusters and the coming of the Spirit of Truth. The evolutionary picture of human existence begins and ends with religion, albeit very different qualities of religion, one evolutional and biological, the other revelational and periodical. And so, while religion is normal and natural to man, it is also optional. Man does not have to be religious against his will.I don’t see how someone fails to survive without serious, prolonged, and mind altering iniquity….a lifetime of it. And I don’t see how anyone remains “indifferent” once the slumber is over either….and who says they’re indifferent now? The Mansion worlds are designed for the transformation of those baby souls who lived in darkness, ignorance, fear, doubt, and material attachments. The universe of universes is operationally focused on the ascendant experience and it would seem from the text, that those who designed and operate and rule this system of ascendency can be trusted with the success of that system.
I find the worry and rhetoric of those who condemn so many of God’s children to be worrisome on two levels….first is the assumption that one mortal knows enough about that system and faith and love response and soul growth and all the related elements included, that somehow they have the power and wisdom to determine the eligibility and worth/value of other mortals…a troubling doubt reeking of assurance which might arise primarily from a sense of self superiority. But the second area of concern would be the required doubts, suspicions, and lack of trust and confidence in the rulers and ministers of this universe plan of ascension.
I may be the one who is wrong in my optimism and confidence in universe fairness, patience, and mercy….but then we should all hope I and all other optimists are right and the doubting pessimists are wrong. I find the debate of who and how many survive rather unsavory myself.
There’s a lot of circle-work to go upon the birth of the soul and if a soul itself has not perished by iniquity, (and not by lack of attention or effort or success or understanding which is not condemning or soul killing), only then would that mortal not survive IMO. This is the very purpose of the Mansion Worlds. Indeed, they have no other except rehabilitation, reorientation, and cultural immersion in the heavenly WAY. As to what we take with us that bring regret and remorse in memory….an interesting question!
47:3.7 (533.5) On mansion world number one (or another in case of advanced status) you will resume your intellectual training and spiritual development at the exact level whereon they were interrupted by death. Between the time of planetary death or translation and resurrection on the mansion world, mortal man gains absolutely nothing aside from experiencing the fact of survival. You begin over there right where you leave off down here.
47:3.8 (533.6) Almost the entire experience of mansion world number one pertains to deficiency ministry. Survivors arriving on this first of the detention spheres present so many and such varied defects of creature character and deficiencies of mortal experience that the major activities of the realm are occupied with the correction and cure of these manifold legacies of the life in the flesh on the material evolutionary worlds of time and space.
47:3.9 (534.1) The sojourn on mansion world number one is designed to develop mortal survivors at least up to the status of the post-Adamic dispensation on the normal evolutionary worlds. Spiritually, of course, the mansion world students are far in advance of such a state of mere human development.
47:4.5 (535.1) Your Adjuster memory remains fully intact as you ascend the morontia life. Those mental associations that were purely animalistic and wholly material naturally perished with the physical brain, but everything in your mental life which was worth while, and which had survival value, was counterparted by the Adjuster and is retained as a part of personal memory all the way through the ascendant career. You will be conscious of all your worth-while experiences as you advance from one mansion world to another and from one section of the universe to another — even to Paradise.
47:4.6 (535.2) Though you have morontia bodies, you continue, through all seven of these worlds, to eat, drink, and rest. You partake of the morontia order of food, a kingdom of living energy unknown on the material worlds. Both food and water are fully utilized in the morontia body; there is no residual waste. Pause to consider: Mansonia number one is a very material sphere, presenting the early beginnings of the morontia regime. You are still a near human and not far removed from the limited viewpoints of mortal life, but each world discloses definite progress. From sphere to sphere you grow less material, more intellectual, and slightly more spiritual. The spiritual progress is greatest on the last three of these seven progressive worlds.
47:4.7 (535.3) Biological deficiencies were largely made up on the first mansion world. There defects in planetary experiences pertaining to sex life, family association, and parental function were either corrected or were projected for future rectification among the Material Son families on Jerusem.
47:4.8 (535.4) Mansonia number two more specifically provides for the removal of all phases of intellectual conflict and for the cure of all varieties of mental disharmony. The effort to master the significance of morontia mota, begun on the first mansion world, is here more earnestly continued. The development on mansonia number two compares with the intellectual status of the post-Magisterial Son culture of the ideal evolutionary worlds.
Bonita, believe me as well red those lines was so identical of my peevish frown. I can’t help laughing of those assertions. Lately, I woke-up and said “what the heck, seems like I have general animosities towards organizations (profit/non-profit, politics,socials) and persons. Must be experiencing Truth/Realities mingle with immaturity/maturity, mercy/disdain, pardon/blame … xoxo
So glad I’m not alone in this André. Seems like we all suffer somewhat with imperfections . . . ❤️
What *nature at work* are you talking about?The nature of a person. Personal nature, a person’s natural inclination to be spiritually uninterested.47:4.5 Your Adjuster memory remains fully intact as you ascend the morontia life. Those mental associations that were purely animalistic and wholly material naturally perished with the physical brain, but everything in your mental life which was worth while, and which had survival value, was counterparted by the Adjuster and is retained as a part of personal memory all the way through the ascendant career. You will be conscious of all your worth-while experiences as you advance from one mansion world to another and from one section of the universe to another — even to Paradise.
Who’s to say what a worthwhile experience is? Was the pain I experienced in high school caused by a person who falsely accused me of doing something I never did, or even knew was possible to do, a worthwhile experience? Due to the depth of destruction he caused I’ve never completely forgiven him, but then again I haven’t seen him since. I’ve moved on and mostly forgotten it, but someday we will come face to face and who knows what will happen. He has to know the devastation he caused and I want to hear his regrets. And, I have to come to a point where I can fully forgive him, which I haven’t. I still despise the louse because he damaged, not only me, but my whole family. So, no matter what happens, isn’t that a worthwhile experience, worthwhile enough to carry into the next life? I don’t think it’s all unicorns and rainbows there. Just sayin’
VanAmadon wrote: . . . a person’s natural inclination to be spiritually uninterested.I don’t think that’s natural. I think it’s something learned. However, TUB does inform us of various spiritual types of human personality. There may be people less inclined spiritually, less responsive to the higher adjutants. Perhaps it’s a glandular problem and something that can be remedied on the mansion worlds. The following quote is about spirit-reception series of mind design in the universe which is dependent upon gland chemistry. Apparently this differential disappears on the mansion worlds. Someone with defective gland chemistry may wake up to a whole new way of looking at things in the next life . . . who knows!
49:5.19 3. Spirit-reception series. There are three groups of mind design as related to contact with spirit affairs. This classification does not refer to the one-, two-, and three-brained orders of mortals; it refers primarily to gland chemistry, more particularly to the organization of certain glands comparable to the pituitary bodies. The races on some worlds have one gland, on others two, as do Urantians, while on still other spheres the races have three of these unique bodies. The inherent imagination and spiritual receptivity is definitely influenced by this differential chemical endowment.
G’day all,
#24690 VanAmadon
Personal nature, a person’s natural inclination* to be spiritually uninterested.
* inclination: def. a disposition or bent, especially of the mind or will; a liking or preference.
42:11.8 (482.6) The evolving animal mind, while naturally God-seeking, is not alone and of itself inherently** God-knowing.
**inhering : def. existing in someone or something as a permanent and inseparable element, quality, or attribute.
Evolving animal mind nature bent or incline for God-seeking.
111:1.4 But into your hands, subject to your own decisions, has been given mind, and it is by mind that you live or die. It is within this mind and with this mind that you make those moral decisions which enable you to achieve Adjusterlikeness, and that is Godlikeness.
Fail this innate achievement using freewill Divine’s prerogative result as what you discern VanAmadon as inclination to be spiritually uninterested.
Thanks VanAmadon,
André
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