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God is always the first to act. He gives first, and because of that, we learn from him how to give back. God gives the gift first and then we give a gift back, and the only gift worth giving is our decision to do his will.
118:5.3 Mortal consciousness proceeds from the fact, to the meaning, and then to the value. Creator consciousness proceeds from the thought-value, through the word-meaning, to the fact of action. Always must God act to break the deadlock of the unqualified unity inherent in existential infinity. Always must Deity provide the pattern universe, the perfect personalities, the original truth, beauty, and goodness for which all subdeity creations strive. Always must God first find man that man may later find God. Always must there be a Universal Father before there can ever be universal sonship and consequent universal brotherhood.
1:1.2 The affectionate dedication of the human will to the doing of the Father’s will is man’s choicest gift to God; in fact, such a consecration of creature will constitutes man’s only possible gift of true value to the Paradise Father. In God, man lives, moves, and has his being; there is nothing which man can give to God except this choosing to abide by the Father’s will, and such decisions, effected by the intelligent will creatures of the universes, constitute the reality of that true worship which is so satisfying to the love-dominated nature of the Creator Father.
So yes, God gives gifts even to those who don’t want them because he acts first. He finds man so man might LATER find him. People can only choose from what they are conscious of. If they are not conscious of the gift of salvation, then they can’t choose for it or against it. It must wait until LATER. When it comes down to it, it’s what a person is yearning for, their longings and purposes that truly matter.
34:3.8 One is free to choose and act only within the realm of one’s consciousness.
Weird.
I thought you were my friend?
Sure Enno…still weird though. I’m also say and do things considered weird by my friends and family….and my friends do weird things and say dumb stuff…no big deal. Bonita and I are great friends…and she is friend enough to point out how wrong I am about some things. For such friendship I am grateful. Friends do not agree on much, much of the time. Do you really think God does not give all gifts to all of us all the time? Remember the rain for the just and the unjust? Perhaps I misunderstood your point? Please clarify as you may wish.
Yeah my friends think I’m extremely wierd. After all, they remind me, my name is NO.
Do I really think God does not give all gifts to all of us all the time?
I know he gives it all to everyone, without condition all the time. The point I was trying to make is that, and this floors me, some seem to refuse his gifts.
It doesn’t make sense to do this, but I have seen people refuse to be given something from another.
That was all I was trying to say. You can’t always give someone a gift if they refuse to accept it.
Too much personal stuff Sorry
Perhaps Gene….and yet it was so poignant and relevant. I knew exactly what you meant and related so personally to it myself. Thank you. While I will not even attempt a restatement, let me say how much I agree that what we have to give is our love and we must give it freely with hope but without strings of obligation and debt and if we can learn to do so then come great gifts to us. I teach my little ones that so long as we are the most important person in our life, happiness will not come to us…we must love and serve to be happy in life.
In my immaturity, I have enabled and given false sympathy (assistance and aid and sorrow for the suffering caused by one’s own choices – a detrimental and counterproductive form of sympathy) and protected those I love from the repercussions of their choices. One learns better – or should! And, like you Gene, I have given in ways which cost me personal material wealth and security but truly made a difference and provided a bridge at a critical time to someone I love which delivered them to that better place….sometimes, like you, I even get gratitude, but more often not even recognition and acknowledgement of the success of my service and love. I have found that such generosity has always been rewarded by more daily bread, more peace of mind, more happiness, more love and affection and respect received over time…indeed, the balance sheet may come up short on the material side but is endlessly bounteous on the spiritual and inner life side! Love does not cost….it only yields!
And what an important point you made Gene…..it is not about the recognition, acknowledgement, appreciation, or even success of such gifts and such loving service….it is just an expression of love and who we are!! In my life I have found such loving service to be everywhere and given by so many….and so often by complete strangers to other strangers….random but intentional acts of kindness, the Good Samaritan syndrome endlessly playing out every day and everywhere. It is a pity there are those who cannot see this light of life that shines all around but only see the patches of shadow cast by the errors of intention or expression by our immature fellows.
Love is complex….but so very powerful….and pervasive! It’s everywhere…it saturates reality….it only disappears in non-realities. Otherwise, it is the river of life itself, a torrent of love that sweeps reality forward endlessly.
There are more and less wise forms of its expression and more and less self forgetting forms as well. Thus the gift of time and experience, the tools of wisdom formation….learning to climb the rungs of the Golden Rule and the love ladder….from doing to others as we would have done to us, to brotherly affection, to paternal/fatherly love, to Divine loving. Love is a force of nurturing, fostering, and hope.
It is unfortunate that all of us sometime and some of us all the time place limits and conditions on love….we demand/require recognition, gratitude, specific results, and micro management of process and outcomes…..or we are disappointed in our so called gifts of love. Some are so focused on what is “refused” and what “fails”….always focused on what others do or do not do and what others should do or should not do….never achieving that sublime peace that comes from simply placing the bread of love upon the waters of life, knowing that the gift of love is never wasted, can never be wasted….but always flows forth in its ministry and with its power to serve the greater good for the greatest number. The gift of love always has repercussions and effect….not only on others but also on the source of its giving and the branch through which it flows.
Or so I believe and have found true in my own religious experience. Sorry for those who did not get to read Gene’s post as it was wonderfully illuminating!
I know he gives it all to everyone, without condition all the time. The point I was trying to make is that, and this floors me, some seem to refuse his gifts. It doesn’t make sense to do this, but I have seen people refuse to be given something from another. That was all I was trying to say. You can’t always give someone a gift if they refuse to accept it.
Forgive me for being overly-literal for a moment, in order to make a point. Using your analogy of a gift that is given; if someone were to give a gift to someone and that person essentially ignores the gift or looks in another direction, the gift sits unused and unopened. That is not a “refusal” of the gift. It is lack of awareness or understanding that a gift is being offered.
The person may later be prompted to look in the direction of the gift, which has been sitting neglected on a table for however long, and realize the amazing blessing that is before them, and accept it joyfully.
I think what Bradly (and I and others on this thread) are saying is that awareness of the gift can occur after mortal death and acceptance of the gift at that time is just as valid as if accepted earlier.
I’d just like to point out that we learn how to love with fatherly affection by adopting the four faith attitudes. One’s attitude precedes one’s reactions of fatherly love toward others.
(1573.6) 140:5.4 The Master introduced this momentous discourse by calling attention to four faith attitudes as the prelude to the subsequent portrayal of his four transcendent and supreme reactions of fatherly love in contrast to the limitations of mere brotherly love.
(1573.7) 140:5.5 He first talked about those who were poor in spirit, hungered after righteousness, endured meekness, and who were pure in heart. Such spirit-discerning mortals could be expected to attain such levels of divine selflessness as to be able to attempt the amazing exercise of fatherly affection; that even as mourners they would be empowered to show mercy, promote peace, and endure persecutions, and throughout all of these trying situations to love even unlovely mankind with a fatherly love. A father’s affection can attain levels of devotion that immeasurably transcend a brother’s affection.
I think these four faith attitudes are essential to true religious living. True religious living is described several ways in section 6. It is a mode of living in which one gives wholehearted devotion to supreme values with an unquestioning loyalty (100:6.1). A mode of living where the ego willingly surrenders to self-discipline. A mode of living in which there is an intense striving for super mortal goals. A mode of living where ideals are characterized by patience, fortitude and tolerance. (100:6.4). True religious living is a living love, a life of service, which adds meaning to life and generates enthusiasm and courage. True religious living results in a sublime peace, a cosmic poise, a lack of doubt and inner turmoil, and a deep sense of security due to ultimate trust in God. (100:6.5-7)
I don’t think it’s possible to live the true religious life and learn to view the world with a fatherly love without training one’s mind to embrace Jesus’ four faith attitudes:
(1573.8) 140:5.6 The faith and the love of these beatitudes strengthen moral character and create happiness. Fear and anger weaken character and destroy happiness. This momentous sermon started out upon the note of happiness.
(1573.9) 140:5.7 1. “Happy are the poor in spirit — the humble.” To a child, happiness is the satisfaction of immediate pleasure craving. The adult is willing to sow seeds of self-denial in order to reap subsequent harvests of augmented happiness. In Jesus’ times and since, happiness has all too often been associated with the idea of the possession of wealth. In the story of the Pharisee and the publican praying in the temple, the one felt rich in spirit — egotistical; the other felt “poor in spirit” — humble. One was self-sufficient; the other was teachable and truth-seeking. The poor in spirit seek for goals of spiritual wealth — for God. And such seekers after truth do not have to wait for rewards in a distant future; they are rewarded now. They find the kingdom of heaven within their own hearts, and they experience such happiness now.
(1574.1) 140:5.8 2. “Happy are they who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they shall be filled.” Only those who feel poor in spirit will ever hunger for righteousness. Only the humble seek for divine strength and crave spiritual power. But it is most dangerous to knowingly engage in spiritual fasting in order to improve one’s appetite for spiritual endowments. Physical fasting becomes dangerous after four or five days; one is apt to lose all desire for food. Prolonged fasting, either physical or spiritual, tends to destroy hunger.
(1574.2) 140:5.9 Experiential righteousness is a pleasure, not a duty. Jesus’ righteousness is a dynamic love — fatherly-brotherly affection. It is not the negative or thou-shalt-not type of righteousness. How could one ever hunger for something negative — something “not to do”?
(1574.3) 140:5.10 It is not so easy to teach a child mind these first two of the beatitudes, but the mature mind should grasp their significance.
(1574.4) 140:5.11 3. “Happy are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth.” Genuine meekness has no relation to fear. It is rather an attitude of man co-operating with God — “Your will be done.” It embraces patience and forbearance and is motivated by an unshakable faith in a lawful and friendly universe. It masters all temptations to rebel against the divine leading. Jesus was the ideal meek man of Urantia, and he inherited a vast universe.
(1574.5) 140:5.12 4. “Happy are the pure in heart, for they shall see God.” Spiritual purity is not a negative quality, except that it does lack suspicion and revenge. In discussing purity, Jesus did not intend to deal exclusively with human sex attitudes. He referred more to that faith which man should have in his fellow man; that faith which a parent has in his child, and which enables him to love his fellows even as a father would love them. A father’s love need not pamper, and it does not condone evil, but it is always anticynical. Fatherly love has singleness of purpose, and it always looks for the best in man; that is the attitude of a true parent.
(1574.6) 140:5.13 To see God — by faith — means to acquire true spiritual insight. And spiritual insight enhances Adjuster guidance, and these in the end augment God-consciousness. And when you know the Father, you are confirmed in the assurance of divine sonship, and you can increasingly love each of your brothers in the flesh, not only as a brother — with brotherly love — but also as a father — with fatherly affection.
I think what Bradly (and I and others on this thread) are saying is that awareness of the gift can occur after mortal death and acceptance of the gift at that time is just as valid as if accepted earlier.
Yes, that’s exactly right. A person cannot reject survival without realizing that they actually have the option to survive. It’s possible that such a realization, or consciousness of the gift of survival, does not occur to a person until after resurrection actually happens. Once a person is “aware”, then a real decision can be made. And that is why I think most people initially survive in order to get an opportunity to make a fully conscious decision.
Ignorance is not held against us, but ignoring gifts can be held against us because it indicates a lack of the growth of grace. Grace itself is a gift which is meant to grow. There are many reasons for lack of growth and progress. Some of those reasons may be beyond the control of a person, some are due to animalistic tendencies such as, ” . . .procrastination, equivocation, insincerity, problem avoidance, unfairness, and ease seeking” (48:5.8), all of which are dealt with on the mansion worlds. We know that the universe goes to the nth degree to provide what is lacking in order for us to succeed. So few believe they have an abundance of personality credits of grace on tap. (48:7.6) Belief is not faith, so they must be given the opportunity to change their beliefs and draw upon their gifts.
150:5.2 Entrance into the Father’s kingdom is wholly free, but progress — growth in grace — is essential to continuance therein.
48:7.6 4. Few mortals ever dare to draw anything like the sum of personality credits established by the combined ministries of nature and grace. The majority of impoverished souls are truly rich, but they refuse to believe it.
if someone were to give a gift to someone and that person essentially ignores the gift or looks in another direction, the gift sits unused and unopened.
Exactly. Isn’t this what the parable of the talents is all about? Not using the gifts, investing them in religious living and growth of spirit, is the same as burying them in the ground. In the parable the fella who buried the talents had them taken away, but the parable doesn’t necessarily mean that this happens during one earthly lifetime. The time lag of mercy allows for a person to learn from mistakes, and I’m pretty sure that the mansion worlds provides that opportunity.
Bonita,
Well stated. I want to emphasize that I am not saying there are no downsides to not accepting the gift. Of course, the sooner we accept the gift and put it to work in our daily lives, the more benefit/ blessings we will gain. There is no punishment for not accepting the gift, only lack of benefit that the gift yields in our lives the moment we accept the gift and begin conducting ourselves in accordance with the spiritual development that comes along with it.
I know he gives it all to everyone, without condition all the time. The point I was trying to make is that, and this floors me, some seem to refuse his gifts. It doesn’t make sense to do this, but I have seen people refuse to be given something from another. That was all I was trying to say. You can’t always give someone a gift if they refuse to accept it.
Unless the gift is love, kindness, patience, hope, faith, generosity, and trust…gifts that are given whether accepted or not. And God’s gifts can hardly be refused….personality, mind, free will, life, time, and endless love.
I think you’re missing the point.
“some are due to animalistic tendencies”
Sorry to clip this from Bonita’s post.
I watch my dog carefully at times. Life is so simple for him.
He is not plagued with thinking about and sorting through all this stuff.Spiritual living is such a mental exercise.
There is no punishment for not accepting the gift . . .
I agree. Punishment is a self-induced consequence, not something done by God (2:3.2). God goes out of his way to help a person correct their errors by giving them ample time and legions of help. (54:4.3) The concept of punishment is a form of retribution and compensation for wrongdoing. God has no vengeance, nor does he need to be compensated. It’s mankind that demands punishment for wrongdoing, but frequently mankind doesn’t have a divinely wise understanding of what is truly right, which frequently makes punishment inconsistent and unfair.
I think the idea of punishment demands there also be the counterbalance of reward. The human mind loves to think of things as either this or that, black or white, punishment or reward. It’s not an uncommon idea to think that if you’re right you deserve to be rewarded in some way. Righteousness has its rewards, but not aways in this lifetime, so looking for payoffs is not a good way to measure. In fact, I don’t think a true religionist should give even one thought to rewards on any level. If it’s not about punishment, it’s also not about rewards.
Some of the gifts from God:
- Life
- Mind ministry
- Personality
- Faith
- Grace
- Mercy
- Love
- Righteousness
- Adjuster
- Spirit of Truth
- Holy Spirit
- Spiritual insight
- Revelation
- Salvation
- Sonship
I know he gives it all to everyone, without condition all the time. The point I was trying to make is that, and this floors me, some seem to refuse his gifts. It doesn’t make sense to do this, but I have seen people refuse to be given something from another. That was all I was trying to say. You can’t always give someone a gift if they refuse to accept it.
Unless the gift is love, kindness, patience, hope, faith, generosity, and trust…gifts that are given whether accepted or not. And God’s gifts can hardly be refused….personality, mind, free will, life, time, and endless love. I think you’re missing the point.
The gift is eternal life. I’ve been told many times by some, they don’t want it.
So then, eternal life cannot be given to them if it isn’t wanted right?
God won’t force it on someone will he?
When my oldest daughter was 2 years old, she used to refuse to eat broccoli. I told her it was good for her and it would help her grow strong and healthy, but she didn’t listen to me. I’d always put it on her plate and it would sit there, untouched.
She is now 30 years old and she chooses to eat broccoli for dinner at least once a week!
God won’t force it on someone will he?
Of course not, but someone who claims they don’t want eternal life may not know what they’re talking about. Plus, they may have actually earned survival despite their beliefs in what eternal life is. They should at least have a chance to know what survival looks like before they make the final decision, in my opinion. They may end up liking it.
It reminds me of my ex-husband. He freaked out every time I ate cottage cheese. He hated, hated, hated it and didn’t want it anywhere near him. When I asked him if he ever tasted it, he said no. He just didn’t like the idea of it. People who say they don’t want any part of survival may just have a distorted idea of what it actually is. God just might give them the opportunity to recognize that fact. It’s possible.
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