Religion In Human Experience – Paper 100

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  • #29877
    Bonita
    Bonita
    Participant

    You do assert that almost everyone should survive, and Lucifer asserted that everyone should survive. Even you have to admit the close similarity between these two assertions.

    I think Lucifer said everyone DOES survive, not SHOULD survive.  I don’t think Lucifer’s claim allowed for free will, the freedom to opt out, since he claimed immortality was automatic.  At least Jesus’ plan for every person’s survival allows for free will, and that’s the difference, respect for the individual’s liberty to choose.

    54:6.9   One error of human thinking respecting these problems consists in the idea that all evolutionary mortals on an evolving planet would choose to enter upon the Paradise career if sin had not cursed their world. The ability to decline survival does not date from the times of the Lucifer rebellion. Mortal man has always possessed the endowment of freewill choice regarding the Paradise career.

    #29900
    Avatar
    George Park
    Participant

    I think Lucifer said everyone DOES survive, not SHOULD survive.

    This quote says Lucifer asserted that everyone WOULD survive, if it were not for the Ancients of Days.

    He maintained that immortality was inherent in the system personalities, that resurrection was natural and automatic, and that all beings would live eternally except for the arbitrary and unjust acts of the executioners of the Ancients of Days. (53:3.5)

    His point appears to be that everyone SHOULD survive and WOULD survive, if the Ancients of Days could be prevented from interfering.

    #29904
    Bonita
    Bonita
    Participant

    His point appears to be that everyone SHOULD survive and WOULD survive, if the Ancients of Days could be prevented from interfering.

    Yes, Lucifer did oppose interference from the Ancients of Days, but he said he believed resurrection is naturalautomatic, and inherent.  Natural, automatic and inherent means that, in his opinion, everyone DOES survive.  Lucifer objected to survival being prevented by someone else’s will (Ancients of Days).  He rejected interference in that natural, automatic and inherent process which DOES result in resurrection of all personalities.

    #29920
    Bonita
    Bonita
    Participant

    But this direct and bitter attack on the Ancients of Days was not really an attempt to provoke righteous indignation, just a subtle and deceptive way to cleverly create confusion.

    First of all, it’s improper to call Lucifer’s indignation righteous.   Righteous means virtuous and there is no virtue in Lucifer.  Lucifer was not subtle in his attempt to create confusion, he was blatant about it, as were his minions.  They deliberately and consciously chose to radically reorganize the world.  Radically bypassing natural evolution causes confusion, and when it’s done willfully, there’s absolutely nothing righteous about it.  What Lucifer did was akin to giving a four year old the keys to the family car and saying, “Go ahead, have fun, all will be well.”

    The religious life is what this topic is about. Lucifer is the antithesis of the religious life; his ideas are nonreligious.  Religious living is a natural evolution powered by human will. Religious living, if embraced, will evolve into spiritual living, and spiritual living will evolve into morontia living.  On and on and on.  But we all start with religious living, which is natural and orderly because it strives to attune with the rhythm and harmony of the universe.

    5:4.3 All nonreligious human activities seek to bend the universe to the distorting service of self; the truly religious individual seeks to identify the self with the universe and then to dedicate the activities of this unified self to the service of the universe family of fellow beings, human and superhuman.

    #29944
    Bradly
    Bradly
    Participant

    As there is already a very robust topical discussion on survivor rates and Lucifer’s Manifesto as it relates to that topic, I appreciate your efforts Bonita to redirect this discussion back to Paper 100.  This topic is about religious experience as a material mortal on the world of our birth – not survival nor non-survival, and more specifically on such a world as we live on where there are no material rulers or examples or representatives of our celestial governance…..a world where potential agondonters are born.  My bad for taking us into the weeds here on that other issue.

    It would appear to me that there are 3 primary stages of Religion In Human Experience to consider:  first is that mindal and evolutionary growth which brings about the birth of soul by the development of morality and the moral-response in-mind – and this happens in children and in primitives alike we are told; the second is that experience we can describe as spiritization and/or spiritualization after the birth of soul and prior to that intentional and cognitive decision of volitional will described as being ‘born-again’ – and, evidently a mortal mind and soul can experience/express a love response and faith and worship and we are naturally ‘wired’ for such a reality-response and are certainly ministered to by the Spirits of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit – and this too can and does happen in all minds – and while it would be inaccurate to claim such progress is unintentional, it is not a cognitive exercise of volition I do not think so much as a naturally occurring response and reflex to our naturalized state of being – the dual nature is very real…both sides or aspects of it have profoundly natural drives and responses – for example the hunger and thirst and oxygen needs of the material body are no less represented by the spirit nature; and then there is that religious experience which is intentionally and deliberately pursued after being born again.

    I cannot determine how many of the 7 psychic circles can be traversed prior to the 3rd Stage I describe above (caution and disclosure: the 3 stages are my own invention and study aid so far as I know…subject to review and change!) and how many, if any, require the deliberate and intentional pursuit of the spirit led life…..the transfer of the seat of identity does, I think, require such intention but again, I speculate here.  I have noticed, and it was my own personal experience, that when some mortals enter Stage 3, there often ensues a season of exuberance which can often lead to impatience for enlightenment and wisdom and more radical practices in that pursuit.  Transferring the seat of identity is, perhaps, something best done methodically and deliberately but patiently, awaiting that growth and experience over time that comes from prayer and thoughtful maturation by seeking out meanings and values over simple and radical change.

    Below is an interesting list of warnings and dangers in certain beliefs and practices which may inflate certain distortions of experience in our religious pursuits.

    100:5.8 (1099.6) There is great danger associated with the habitual practice of religious daydreaming; mysticism may become a technique of reality avoidance, albeit it has sometimes been a means of genuine spiritual communion. Short seasons of retreat from the busy scenes of life may not be seriously dangerous, but prolonged isolation of personality is most undesirable. Under no circumstances should the trancelike state of visionary consciousness be cultivated as a religious experience.

    100:5.9 (1099.7) The characteristics of the mystical state are diffusion of consciousness with vivid islands of focal attention operating on a comparatively passive intellect. All of this gravitates consciousness toward the subconscious rather than in the direction of the zone of spiritual contact, the superconscious. Many mystics have carried their mental dissociation to the level of abnormal mental manifestations.

    100:5.10 (1100.1) The more healthful attitude of spiritual meditation is to be found in reflective worship and in the prayer of thanksgiving. The direct communion with one’s Thought Adjuster, such as occurred in the later years of Jesus’ life in the flesh, should not be confused with these so-called mystical experiences. The factors which contribute to the initiation of mystic communion are indicative of the danger of such psychic states. The mystic status is favored by such things as: physical fatigue, fasting, psychic dissociation, profound aesthetic experiences, vivid sex impulses, fear, anxiety, rage, and wild dancing. Much of the material arising as a result of such preliminary preparation has its origin in the subconscious mind.

    100:5.11 (1100.2) However favorable may have been the conditions for mystic phenomena, it should be clearly understood that Jesus of Nazareth never resorted to such methods for communion with the Paradise Father. Jesus had no subconscious delusions or superconscious illusions.

    #29947
    Bonita
    Bonita
    Participant

    (caution and disclosure: the 3 stages are my own invention and study aid so far as I know…subject to review and change!)

    I’m not sure I’m following your three stages, but I’m wondering if you gave any thought to a relationship between your three stages and the three developmental stages involving the Thought Adjuster, Thought Changer and Thought Controller?

    #29950
    Bonita
    Bonita
    Participant

    Hi Bradly, also wondering if you think these three stages of consciousness are related to your three stages:

    p69:6 5:5.11 God-consciousness, as it is experienced by an evolving mortal of the realms, must consist of three varying factors, three differential levels of reality realization. There is first the mind consciousness—the comprehension of the idea of God. Then follows the soul consciousness—the realization of the ideal of God. Last, dawns the spirit consciousness—the realization of the spirit reality of God. By the unification of these factors of the divine realization, no matter how incomplete, the mortal personality at all times overspreads all conscious levels with a realization of the personality of God.

    #29951
    Bradly
    Bradly
    Participant

    Regarding my 3 Stages….I’d like others’ opinions on the definition/description of “born again” or “reborn” might be and how Religion In Human Experience might be different prior to and after that.  “Born again” only appears 5 times in the Papers and the first quote is confusing to me…is that the moment of the birth of soul….or a cognitive dedication of volitional will to the Spirit within?

    https://urantia-association.org/search/?zoom_sort=2&zoom_query=%22born+again%22&zoom_per_page=100&zoom_and=0&zoom_cat%5B%5D=-1

    Likewise does “reborn” have very few quotes to consider:

    https://urantia-association.org/search/?zoom_sort=2&zoom_query=reborn&zoom_per_page=100&zoom_and=0&zoom_cat%5B%5D=-1

    It seems to me this is an important concept to study.  Isn’t this differentiated from the birth of soul?  Isn’t “rebirth” indicative of something beyond and more than the birth of soul?  Jesus makes it sound like one must intentionally and purposefully “join” and “enter” the Kingdom of God.  Or so it seems to me.  “Rebirth”:

    https://urantia-association.org/search/?zoom_sort=2&zoom_query=rebirth&zoom_per_page=100&zoom_and=0&zoom_cat%5B%5D=-1

    So…my questions have to do with 3 specific stages of religious experience or spiritization and spiritualization:  up to and including the birth of soul – that experience of development which brings us to the birth of soul; the natural reflexive/responsive soul growth and Circle Progress prior to being born again or reborn or rebirth – or that deliberative and conscious decision(s) to lead the Spirit led life and transfer the seat of our personal identity; and the stage or season after that personal commitment when experience with/in the Spirit delivers greater wisdom and maturity.

    And yes, I do think the 3 stages of Adjuster influence are related to the question/issue.  I would think the first 2 stages of Adjuster influence occur in Stages 2 & 3 of my model – the Thought Adjuster comes with the birth of soul and works to deliver the mind to personal realization and cognitive commitment to the Spirit within; the Thought Changer arises once that commitment/awareness is achieved (?); and the Thought Controller function acts upon the more experienced, mature, and wiser mind when super conscious cooperation and soul awareness becomes more functional (?).

    138:8.8 [Part IV]
    Jesus made plain to his apostles the difference between the repentance of so-called good works as taught by the Jews and the change of mind by faith — the new birth — which he required as the price of admission to the kingdom. He taught his apostles that faith was the only requisite to entering the Father’s kingdom. John had taught them “repentance — to flee from the wrath to come.” Jesus taught, “Faith is the open door for entering into the present, perfect, and eternal love of God.” Jesus did not speak like a prophet, one who comes to declare the word of God. He seemed to speak of himself as one having authority. Jesus sought to divert their minds from miracle seeking to the finding of a real and personal experience in the satisfaction and assurance of the indwelling of God’s spirit of love and saving grace.

    (1660.5) 148:4.6 “By nature, before the rebirth of the spirit, mortal man is subject to inherent evil tendencies, but such natural imperfections of behavior are neither sin nor iniquity. Mortal man is just beginning his long ascent to the perfection of the Father in Paradise. To be imperfect or partial in natural endowment is not sinful. Man is indeed subject to evil, but he is in no sense the child of the evil one unless he has knowingly and deliberately chosen the paths of sin and the life of iniquity. Evil is inherent in the natural order of this world, but sin is an attitude of conscious rebellion which was brought to this world by those who fell from spiritual light into gross darkness.

    (1660.7) 148:4.8 “Men are, indeed, by nature evil, but not necessarily sinful. The new birth — the baptism of the spirit — is essential to deliverance from evil and necessary for entrance into the kingdom of heaven, but none of this detracts from the fact that man is the son of God. Neither does this inherent presence of potential evil mean that man is in some mysterious way estranged from the Father in heaven so that, as an alien, foreigner, or stepchild, he must in some manner seek for legal adoption by the Father. All such notions are born, first, of your misunderstanding of the Father and, second, of your ignorance of the origin, nature, and destiny of man.

    As should be obvious, I attempt to ‘lead’ this topical discussion as a student only, one with far more questions and confusions to explore and sort out than any specific agendas of outcome or predetermined opinions to express.  I am grateful to all who join in with a spirit of mutual discovery and contemplation in the pursuit of meanings and values and an appreciation for truth, beauty, and goodness.  Thank you.

    ;-)

    #29953
    Bradly
    Bradly
    Participant

    Hi Bradly, also wondering if you think these three stages of consciousness are related to your three stages:

    p69:6 5:5.11 God-consciousness, as it is experienced by an evolving mortal of the realms, must consist of three varying factors, three differential levels of reality realization. There is first the mind consciousness—the comprehension of the idea of God. Then follows the soul consciousness—the realization of the ideal of God. Last, dawns the spirit consciousness—the realization of the spirit reality of God. By the unification of these factors of the divine realization, no matter how incomplete, the mortal personality at all times overspreads all conscious levels with a realization of the personality of God.

    Yes…no doubt related.  But I think this quote has more to do with Circle Progress.  The integration of mind/soul/being and the experiential wisdom acquired (described above as the unification effect/result) can happen (I think) in very different and unique ways or steps one believer to another:

    110:6.1 [Part III]
    The sum total of personality realization on a material world is contained within the successive conquest of the seven psychic circles of mortal potentiality. Entrance upon the seventh circle marks the beginning of true human personality function. Completion of the first circle denotes the relative maturity of the mortal being. Though the traversal of the seven circles of cosmic growth does not equal fusion with the Adjuster, the mastery of these circles marks the attainment of those steps which are preliminary to Adjuster fusion.

    110:6.3 [Part III]
    The psychic circles are not exclusively intellectual, neither are they wholly morontial; they have to do with personality status, mind attainment, soul growth, and Adjuster attunement. The successful traversal of these levels demands the harmonious functioning of the entire personality, not merely of some one phase thereof. The growth of the parts does not equal the true maturation of the whole; the parts really grow in proportion to the expansion of the entire self — the whole self — material, intellectual, and spiritual.

    110:6.16 [Part III]
    Perhaps these psychic circles of mortal progression would be better denominated cosmic levels — actual meaning grasps and value realizations of progressive approach to the morontia consciousness of initial relationship of the evolutionary soul with the emerging Supreme Being. And it is this very relationship that makes it forever impossible fully to explain the significance of the cosmic circles to the material mind. These circle attainments are only relatively related to God-consciousness. A seventh or sixth circler can be almost as truly God-knowing — sonship conscious — as a second or first circler, but such lower circle beings are far less conscious of experiential relation to the Supreme Being, universe citizenship. The attainment of these cosmic circles will become a part of the ascenders’ experience on the mansion worlds if they fail of such achievement before natural death.

    The seven stages of Circle growth all begin and occur after the birth of soul (my Stage 1…which is not irrelevant and cannot be ignored – there are functional elements and forces at work in children and primitives which do deliver Religion In Human Experience – or else there would be no birth of soul – no beginning point for Circle Progress and soul growth and the transfer of the seat of identity – Stage 1 has a profoundly important and mysterious role in attaining our destiny potential) and all the steps and stages in text occur in my Stage 2 & 3.  But it seems that all soul growth and spiritization and spiritualization is otherwise completely unique to each religionist and soul.

    Some progress faster in some ways and others in different ways and all in different orders and depths/lengths of progress in all manner of ways known to and measured by the TA’s….perhaps the only beings who actually and truly know the aggregate and integration of progress of each soul moment by moment and day by day….for the TA not only whispers and pilots but also responds to every opportunity of our own responsiveness and progress.

    So glad you’re here Bonita…thanks so much for helping me discover the wonders and mysteries of Religion In Human Experience!

    ;-)

    #29954
    Bonita
    Bonita
    Participant

    Thanks to you too Bradly for being such a consistently bright light.

    Didn’t we recently have a topic about being born of the spirit?  I know I’ve written extensively about this and addressed it in one of my mini books on prayer.  It reminds me about the distinction between Son of Man and Son of God.  Being born of the spirit is the realization of sonship with God.  Sonship with God is the chance at a fresh start, a new attitude toward the universe due to the recognition of one’s true Father.  It’s a new perspective on reality where spirit dominates mind and the resulting spiritized mind dominates the material life. It’s a realignment with reality.

    It’s all part of religious living, as I see it.  True religious living is a growing, progressing way of life where spirit is dominant in every decision.  Using that definition, religious living naturally propels the personality through the cosmic circles.  True religious living involves living faith, trust in one’s highest hopes and dedication to one’s highest ideals.  It’s about loyalty, a son’s loyalty to the Father and his universe of other sons.

    I don’t see this so much as distinct stages, but rather like the flow of a river.  Sometimes it’s calm, sometimes its turbulent, but at all times it’s living and moving forward.  You’re only going to stand still or go backward if you get out of the boat and fight against the current.  Being reborn is simply getting in the boat and rowing with the natural flow, trusting it will lead you ever closer to God himself.  It’s about a living faith-trust and a willingness to go where it takes you.  And if you do, all things are new and exciting.

    There are a lot of people afraid to get in the boat.  I think there are many possible fears that might prevent a person from taking that step.  Probably the hardest fear to overcome is the fear of losing control.  I think the ego depends on being in control at all times, and that can be a tough thing to let go of for some folks.  There are other fears of course. Some people are quite happy with things as they are and don’t want the adventure. Others are weak or lack courage.  But I don’t know if any of that is held against them in the long run but rather viewed as problems of immaturity.

    Anyway, lots to think about and talk about here.  I could probably go on forever.

    #29955
    Bradly
    Bradly
    Participant

    Anyway, lots to think about and talk about here. I could probably go on forever.

    Hahahahahahha!!!  Of course you will….exactly the point!!

    An awesome personalized summary above.  You say:  “True religious living is a growing, progressing way of life where spirit is dominant in every decision. Using that definition, religious living naturally propels the personality through the cosmic circles. True religious living involves living faith, trust in one’s highest hopes and dedication to one’s highest ideals. It’s about loyalty, a son’s loyalty to the Father and his universe of other sons.

    I don’t see this so much as distinct stages, but rather like the flow of a river…..”

    I agree…the stages I described don’t have clear lines of distinction or debarkation or transition.

    I was reborn long ago but there’s been lots of growing and progressing and considerable time spent with more good intentions than truly redirected motives and adjusted priorities.  But the more my motives for living and my priorities in my daily choices become spirit directed and aligned, the greater the propulsion and current as I learned to “trust in one’s highest hopes” and I became dedicated to my “highest ideals”.  Experience delivered knowledge of the blessings of loyalty to the Father and a growing trust in his friendly universe.  It’s all been very progressive and unconscious….if also obvious in its effects and outcomes in my life.

    Religious living aligned with reality delivers a sublime confidence in the flow of the river of life.  And you’re right, there is a growing trust also in the course and the intersections of choice I am led to by the angels and my TA and the ministers of and to my adventures in time.  I am delivered to those places, people, and times where I can find opportunities to serve, and love, and learn….moments where new meanings are discovered and meanings already learned are reinforced and with new angles of perception to further expand my perspective of life and destiny.

    Now, lest any feel I am bragadocious in my reflections, I assure you all I still consider myself but a tadpole, a child in this spiritualization and growth of soul….I do not understand this transfer of the seat of identity and am no guru of style and technique…..I only claim that when we believe the teachings of the Master and act on such belief with trust and faith, that such will change one’s motives for living, intentions in living, priorities of our choices, and our decisions at the intersections of choice….and that, over time, most definitely changes ME and my life and my perspective and my ideals and hopes.  It does not deliver ease, fame, wealth, or make the material vicissitudes any less real or uncertain….only less difficult and less important compared to the growth in spirit and of soul.

    The transition is hard to describe without sounding pompous.  But I can assure all that there is also an accompanying humility and smallness that always comes as one begins to realize how much greater is all reality and how much more truth, beauty, and goodness there is compared to that which I can recognize or grasp or realize myself.  I have only begun, over decades of my life, this inner journey; the beginning of this endless path of progress is still in sight to me…I am such a tadpole still.  But a joyous one and a confident one.  Only my direction is certain and not the distance of my not so great progress!  But to those who knowingly embark on this road and river of faith, it is like Bonita describes above:  “Being reborn is simply getting in the boat and rowing with the natural flow, trusting it will lead you ever closer to God himself. It’s about a living faith-trust and a willingness to go where it takes you. And if you do, all things are new and exciting.”

    6. Marks of Religious Living

    100:6.1 (1100.3) Evolutionary religions and revelatory religions may differ markedly in method, but in motive there is great similarity. Religion is not a specific function of life; rather is it a mode of living. True religion is a wholehearted devotion to some reality which the religionist deems to be of supreme value to himself and for all mankind. And the outstanding characteristics of all religions are: unquestioning loyalty and wholehearted devotion to supreme values. This religious devotion to supreme values is shown in the relation of the supposedly irreligious mother to her child and in the fervent loyalty of nonreligionists to an espoused cause.

    100:6.2 (1100.4) The accepted supreme value of the religionist may be base or even false, but it is nevertheless religious. A religion is genuine to just the extent that the value which is held to be supreme is truly a cosmic reality of genuine spiritual worth.

    100:6.3 (1100.5) The marks of human response to the religious impulse embrace the qualities of nobility and grandeur. The sincere religionist is conscious of universe citizenship and is aware of making contact with sources of superhuman power. He is thrilled and energized with the assurance of belonging to a superior and ennobled fellowship of the sons of God. The consciousness of self-worth has become augmented by the stimulus of the quest for the highest universe objectives — supreme goals.

    100:6.4 (1100.6) The self has surrendered to the intriguing drive of an all-encompassing motivation which imposes heightened self-discipline, lessens emotional conflict, and makes mortal life truly worth living. The morbid recognition of human limitations is changed to the natural consciousness of mortal shortcomings, associated with moral determination and spiritual aspiration to attain the highest universe and superuniverse goals. And this intense striving for the attainment of supermortal ideals is always characterized by increasing patience, forbearance, fortitude, and tolerance.

    #29956
    Avatar
    Gene
    Participant

    can’t help but think about how I stack up against 100:6.1,2,3&4:
    I have and do experienc loyalty to supreme values, hindsight says some were base, false but that must indicate some sort of growth.
    I am conscious of universe citizenship but have yet to be aware of experiencing contact with superhuman power but I’m thrilled to be a son of God and I do quest for supreme goals.
    Life is worth living because I do experience less emotional conflict and more self discipline, patience, forbearance etc because of this quest.
    Learning how to let go of undesirable stuff of past.
    But honestly, I cannot recall the experience of being borne again or reborn. No feelings of nobility or grandeur.
    Does every sincere religionists experience this rebirth? Often wonder about this.
    I can truely state I am a sincere religionist.

    #29957
    Bonita
    Bonita
    Participant

    But honestly, I cannot recall the experience of being borne again or reborn.

    Me neither.  Sometimes it’s just a natural, gradual, evolutionary type of growth.

    103:2.1   Religion is functional in the human mind and has been realized in experience prior to its appearance in human consciousness. A child has been in existence about nine months before it experiences birth. But the “birth” of religion is not sudden; it is rather a gradual emergence. Nevertheless, sooner or later there is a “birth day.” You do not enter the kingdom of heaven unless you have been “born again” — born of the Spirit. Many spiritual births are accompanied by much anguish of spirit and marked psychological perturbations, as many physical births are characterized by a “stormy labor” and other abnormalities of “delivery.” Other spiritual births are a natural and normal growth of the recognition of supreme values with an enhancement of spiritual experience, albeit no religious development occurs without conscious effort and positive and individual determinations. Religion is never a passive experience, a negative attitude. What is termed the “birth of religion” is not directly associated with so-called conversion experiences which usually characterize religious episodes occurring later in life as a result of mental conflict, emotional repression, and temperamental upheavals.

    #29958
    Bonita
    Bonita
    Participant

    100:6.3 (1100.5) The marks of human response to the religious impulse embrace the qualities of nobility and grandeur.

    So what are the qualities of nobility and grandeur that mark the response to the religious impulse.  What is the religious impulse?

     

     

     

    #29959
    Avatar
    Gene
    Participant

    100:6.3 (1100.5) The marks of human response to the religious impulse embrace the qualities of nobility and grandeur.

    So what are the qualities of nobility and grandeur that mark the response to the religious impulse. What is the religious impulse?

    Nobility and grandeur are too close to ego type responses for me, I’ll leave those for religiously mature people to sort out but I always interpret religious impules as the urge for righteousness.

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