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Bonita wrote:
“… that reflectivity is centered in Majeston, who was created by the Supreme. Although reflectivity is focalized in Majeston on Paradise, it is not needed by the Paradise Deity themselves, who already know all things and are inherently conscious of all things. Reflectivity has to do with the Supreme, with the experiential and finite realms and it is a service. I repeat, reflectivity is a service for the extra-Paradise superuniverses.”
Worth keeping in mind the breath-taking back-story behind the creation of Majeston by the Supreme Being:
“This momentous transaction, occurring in the dawn of time, represents the initial effort of the Supreme Creator Personalities, represented by the Master Spirits, to function as cocreators with the Paradise Trinity. This union of the creative power of the Supreme Creators with the creative potentials of the Trinity is the very source of the actuality of the Supreme Being.” (17:2.2)
I especially like the next bit, concerning the reaction of the Deity Absolute:
“…, then a new and far-reaching reaction occurred in the Deity Absolute which imparted new personality prerogatives to the Supreme Being and culminated in the personalization of Majeston, …” (17:2.2)
To help put this in context:
“The creation of Majeston signalized the first supreme creative act of the Supreme Being. This will to action was volitional in the Supreme Being, but the stupendous reaction of the Deity Absolute was not foreknown. Not since the eternity-appearance of Havona had the universe witnessed such a tremendous factualization of such a gigantic and far-flung alignment of power and co-ordination of functional spirit activities. The Deity response to the creative wills of the Supreme Being and his associates was vastly beyond their purposeful intent and greatly in excess of their conceptual forecasts.” (17:2.5)
“The Deity response […] was vastly beyond their purposeful intent and greatly in excess of their conceptual forecasts”
Nigel
Hi Folks,
I’ve been working with webmaster to see if there’s been a technical error causing the missing posts. She can’t find anything wrong but did find the missing posts in a “Pending” file which is where posts go waiting for someone to decide whether to approve them or not. Still not sure how they got there because none of the moderators have sent them there.
We can see now that there has been some heated debate going on. The webmaster told me that posts can be sent to the Pending file automatically if something in the content triggers the filter like certain inappropriate words. I’ve restored all the posts without scrutinising them all for content and will ask the Moderators to check things out. In the meantime please remember the courtesy rules and keep your debates civil without getting into personal attacks.
Cheers,
Kathleen
From Sydney, Australia
Bonita accuses me above: “Quite the contrary Bradly. It is you who have judged, juried and condemned Michael from the beginning. It is you who have “Good Griefed” him, belittled him and made fun of his beliefs and theories. You have not done a single thing to help him find a link to truth other than regurgitate text. It’s a disgrace how you damn a person right out of the gate and then get up on your soapbox to preach the Gospel according to Bradly. It’s absolutely not helpful. You have no idea what Michael actually believes unless you are claiming some kind of clairvoyance. It appears to me that Michael’s ideas are in a state of evolution, like all of us who are seeking answers. Furthermore, it doesn’t matter a hoot what he believes or how he interprets TUB. That is his own personal business, not yours, and your lack of respect for a person attempting to come to terms with a new revelation of truth is sad and unfortunate.”
holy moly….what a mess…
While I refuse to defend myself or my opinions directly to Bonita, as a waste of time and pure distraction to the issues at hand, I will say this: a review of every post of mine in reply to Michael’s posts over the past 4 months and 10+ pages of posts includes no disrespect or rancor to Michael, but exactly the opposite. There is significant agreement and support and clarifying text and multiple instances of my own agreement and tolerance and allowances for Michael’s stated theories, inquiries, and beliefs as being no less important or valid than my own.
The same is also true of my responses to the topic originator, Ragathea. My posts remain available for any who may wish to determine their content and value.
I have stated and believe that reincarnation is a belief that is based on the reality of progressive religious realization and growth and is superior to the Christian based belief that mortal death delivers instant perfection. I have also supported the belief in karma and have a strong affinity for Eastern philosophy which embraces both teachings. So I have no reason or motive to belittle any such beliefs at all. Once upon a time I embraced them. And still find meaning and value in them. And respect those who embrace them still. The issue is what the UB teaches about the subject…or so I thought.
Michael…if I have offended you in any way, even in some small way, I do sincerely apologize and reiterate here my own belief that it is faith and not belief that determines one’s spiritual journey and progress. We are not here to judge beliefs. We are here to discuss the contents of the UB. Beliefs may be compared to the teachings by such study but we are also NOT here to declare the contents of the UB as factual and demand any student’s belief in the claims of the UB. We study its contents only…or I do, and so claim and have so claimed since attending any study group about the UB.
I, like the UB itself, do not request nor require any agreement with its contents or any belief in its claims. Never have. Never will.
Thank you for being here Michael. Your faith is inspiring to all. Best wishes.
Bradly
I’ve been working with webmaster to see if there’s been a technical error causing the missing posts.
All missing posts from this thread were trapped in the spam folder, but now they are released.
It would be swell if the mods could be more attentive…while this recurring issue gets attention and, hopefully, resolution. 6 days of posts lost in “Spam” cripples conversation and has bad results otherwise too.
Also, on the FORUM page, the most recent post/poster for Discussion is still wrong and very outdated. Also, the bio/profile pages do not lead to historical posts of the poster profiled as advertised and designed. The Forum site lacks mechanical function and integrity/stability/dependability IMO. This site needs some attention…please.
Thank you.
Thank you Bradly for the recommended reading of Papers 85-87 – I plan to read them this weekend
No, I was NOT offended by you or anyone else – I have not had as much free time in the past 2 weeks or so, which is why I am only now responding again. I am glad I can count on you and Bonita to point out when my comments on this forum appear to conflict with TUB. I really strive to keep all the sources that I read as pure as they were originally presented – only in my mind (and in discussions with others) do I like to compare and contrast concepts, but I would NEVER want anyone to actually change original texts, as we know was done to the Bible both unintentionally and on purpose. That is similar to what is happening in modern times regarding the history of the U.S. in schools – it’s one thing to openly disagree with parts of history that were already recorded, and then carefully present alternative views to generate good discussions. BUT it is somewhat insidious to present alternative views of history as though they are absolute truth, even to the extent of hiding or completely denying history that has already been recorded. That is why the old expression that says “Those who ignore/deny history (especially the unpleasant parts) are doomed to repeat it” is still quite valid.I know you are aware that I also read other material at times, and what pleasantly surprised me recently was what I read an older Theosophy book called “Initiations Human and Solar”. Not only does the material somewhat parallel the more clarified concepts in TUB about the 7 Mansion Worlds for our souls to experience (and be tested per level/mansion world) after ending our physical existence on Earth, but also that same Theosophy book confirmed something that you, Bonita (and of course TUB) have stated from the beginning – that we only have ONE true physical life on Earth. That book further stated that after physical death we may at times truly think and feel that we are living new physical lives back on Earth, but in reality, that is NOT the truth! I get the impression that even the more modern concepts of reincarnation that I have read in the past 2 decades have simply been useful (but technically inaccurate) tools to help relatively uneducated masses (for thousands of years) to get a basic understanding of life now and life after we humans pass. But since TUB was written in book form and can be easily read (or parts of it re-read multiple times by people like me), there is no longer a good reason to promote reincarnation among relatively educated societies. Hence the reason I said in one of my earlier posts in this forum that TUB came at the most appropriate time in human history, when the masses of people globally had recently become relatively educated. Even the New Age movement is gradually moving away from reincarnation to promote simultaneous lifetimes, likely because leaders in that movement sense that ideas of reincarnation are soon going to expire, especially once science catches up to the kinds of ideas presented in TUB. But I also suspect that the concept of simultaneous lifetimes is closer to the truth presented in TUB concerning the Mansion Worlds (and beyond).
Less perfect knowledge must be replaced by more perfect knowledge, but we humans are often SO reluctant to that kind of change. I have seen a similar pattern expressed in the Conversations With God book series, where some concepts in Book 1 seem to be contradicted in Book 3, but a closer examination shows that series was written to GRADUALLY bring people to more perfect knowledge and wisdom. You can quickly jump from A to Z when presenting more perfect knowledge, but that likely won’t be accepted unless you gradually educate people step by step with more logical, more rational, more perfect knowledge. No sane math teacher would quickly move from teaching students Algebra 1 to teaching Calculus without gradually teaching the appropriate math courses that logically build upon each prior year of math. TUB may not be the equivalent of Calculus, but it is obviously a greater knowledge that is bringing us MUCH closer to even a greater knowledge – that’s why I keep recommending it to people I know and people I meet
Bye for now.Again, that same Theosophy book I mentioned in my last post seems to confirm yet another TUB truth – “decisions & the crisis relationship” (as it pertains to decisions we will make as a part of the tests we must pass to progress from each Mansion World to the next). That Theosophy book plainly indicates that each initiation involves us being tested with (personalized) crisis situations, which I had previously suspected was true about the Mansion Worlds (& had voiced my opinion about that in a prior post).
Wow! I noticed that there were posts on this forum that never made it to my personal email, though most of them did. I should explain to Bradly, Bonita & others that my personal beliefs have been in a constant state of revision/improvement ever since I realized my knowledge of many concepts that TUB contains/explains was greatly lacking. For several years, I had believed that reincarnation was real, but I only began to question my belief in reincarnation after reading parts of TUB that adamantly claims that is a false belief system. So recently, I have challenged myself to consider exactly how/why reincarnation is false, even beyond the few comments made in TUB regarding that topic. I have also been challenging myself to consider how/why the Urantia Book could be totally true on that same issue. And naturally to keep my thoughts as logical as I can, I want to simply bridge the gaps of my understanding. I couldn’t simply read & instantly accept that TUB was right, even if that proves to be the case.
Because of my realization after my first 20+years that I must have been mistaken about such seemingly foundational beliefs, I am now in the habit of carefully questioning & considering & testing various ideas, whether they are my personal, current beliefs or not. If you recall in a prior post, I do like to play “devil’s advocate” only for the purpose of testing ideas from multiple perspectives. So Bradly, you were sometimes mostly accurate but sometimes a little less accurate about my personal beliefs. But I don’t feel offended by that. And I greatly appreciate Bonita allowing me time to digest much of what I am learning from her, from Bradly, & others who occasionally contribute to this branch of the TUB forum.
Just so you all are aware, I finally found a satisfactory answer to the main question I have been researching in TUB & on this forum. But I found that answer in the last chapter of book 3 of the Conversations With God series, which in my opinion, does NOT in any way diminish the accuracy & value of TUB. If anything, it made TUB even more credible to me in some ways. But Bonita seems to have been right by suggesting that TUB does NOT overtly address the topic of simultaneous realities, which I needed to be properly addressed before I could begin to move well-beyond the belief in reincarnation. Yes Bradly, I am aware that you personally view some of my books in my collection as nonsense/false teachings – most people I know in life likely feel the same as you regarding books I have read in the past 15+ years. But you should realize that it doesn’t mean I fully believe all those books I have read, but they do stretch my mind to think outside the box, compared to what I used to believe, as does TUB. On top of that, I realize that the more I learn, the more I realize how little I really knew, which I very much related to how we often think our parents are relatively dumb while we are teenagers, but as we grow older (& hopefully wiser), we realize our parents were much more knowledgeable & wiser that we originally thought!:-)
Any, I finished the CWG book 3, so now I shall go back & read those TUB chapters that Bradly recently recommended. Bye for now.
Much thanks Bradly (& Bonita & others) – I now have read Papers 85 & 86, & will soon read 87, & will continue reading until I feel I have a good understanding of the history of religions on Urantia. You all have again made me realize that my reading only extracted quotes from TUB does not give me the full context of those quotes, which causes me sometimes to not easily follow the discussions on this forum. But that was partly my fault for asking for specific answers to my questions, when I should have routinely asked you all which Papers should I read to address my particular questions in their full context. At times, that is how you each have answered, for which I thank you. Bye for now.
One more thing – just a friendly observation from my personal experiences. When anyone on this forum mentions a source of information other than TUB, I know it is tempting to simply search for a brief summary of the source, but know that just like with TUB, reading anything apart from the original source can be very risky. For example, my initial online searches for TUB sometimes turned out to be very biased – and thus unfairly inaccurate – descriptions. One site said that Edgar Cayce was the “sleeping source” who channeled TUB. Another online source said TUB was actually based on the writings of some Catholic monk. Another online source said TUB was a hoax!
So you see, if I had ONLY judged TUB from those biased, non-original sources, then I would have MISjudged TUB before even reading it, & likely would NOT have read it for myself. Likewise, when I refer to other sources/books in this forum, PLEASE search for the ORIGINAL books/sources that I mention, NOT what others have said about them. Then, IF you take the time to at least skim read the ORIGINAL sources, then I will have greater respect for you if you still decide not to accept them as valid sources. To me, that is the most fair & honest way to do research (& thus have fair & honest discussions). Other visitors to this forum will also appreciate such quality interaction, not just me. Blessings to all of you.
Again, that same Theosophy book I mentioned in my last post seems to confirm yet another TUB truth – “decisions & the crisis relationship” (as it pertains to decisions we will make as a part of the tests we must pass to progress from each Mansion World to the next). That Theosophy book plainly indicates that each initiation involves us being tested with (personalized) crisis situations, which I had previously suspected was true about the Mansion Worlds (& had voiced my opinion about that in a prior post).
Michael…yes, the UB certainly concurs with the hammer and anvil and experiential wisdom acquired by the endless repetition of choice at the intersections of decision and relationship. The God Fragment and the Guardian Angels are very keen to guide each soul through great tests and conflicts for the forming and tempering of characters which exhibit loyalty and reality response which is reflexive and minds that are discerning and learned about not just determining right from wrong but more right from right and better from good and even best from the many better options available. Wisdom is a reflection of spiritization and experience.
It does not come easy or quickly. The forge begins its work here…and now. It does not ever cease. Its early work creates conflict requiring resolution and confusion that requires determination and uncertainty that requires trust and faith. The repercussions of choice, known as karma in some circles and the reaping of what is sown universally, has positive and negative outcome for our discernment. The causes of suffering and the cures for suffering must be discovered and mastered by each and every soul and being in time. Thus do we learn how better to choose and develop experiential wisdom.
We are taught that the range and effects and options of our freewill grows with our maturity, experience, and wisdom. The choice between right and wrong is narrow and fairly fixed and confined and really not so difficult to know, and the repercussions are limited by proximity to all errors. But as we mature in our freewill we discover how many more choices we must face in the perfecting of choice…when we get to the right choices there are so many!! Some are more right than others but still only experience can determine those. Wisdom never falters in its potential for greater realization and application! Even the Paradise Creator Sons, the perfect Sons of the Trinity, become Master Sons and grow in wisdom and power by experience!
Perfecting is not easy and the creators and Spirits do not choose that which is easy for us. It is said in the Papers that the greatest affliction of all is never to have suffered affliction…for how else does one gain wisdom and empathy and nobility?
100:4.1 (1097.5) Religious living is devoted living, and devoted living is creative living, original and spontaneous. New religious insights arise out of conflicts which initiate the choosing of new and better reaction habits in the place of older and inferior reaction patterns. New meanings only emerge amid conflict; and conflict persists only in the face of refusal to espouse the higher values connoted in superior meanings.
100:4.2 (1097.6) Religious perplexities are inevitable; there can be no growth without psychic conflict and spiritual agitation. The organization of a philosophic standard of living entails considerable commotion in the philosophic realms of the mind. Loyalties are not exercised in behalf of the great, the good, the true, and the noble without a struggle. Effort is attendant upon clarification of spiritual vision and enhancement of cosmic insight. And the human intellect protests against being weaned from subsisting upon the nonspiritual energies of temporal existence. The slothful animal mind rebels at the effort required to wrestle with cosmic problem solving.
100:5.2 (1098.5) The progression of religious growth leads from stagnation through conflict to co-ordination, from insecurity to undoubting faith, from confusion of cosmic consciousness to unification of personality, from the temporal objective to the eternal, from the bondage of fear to the liberty of divine sonship.
108:5.5 (1191.6) The Mystery Monitors are not thought helpers; they are thought adjusters. They labor with the material mind for the purpose of constructing, by adjustment and spiritualization, a new mind for the new worlds and the new name of your future career. Their mission chiefly concerns the future life, not this life. They are called heavenly helpers, not earthly helpers. They are not interested in making the mortal career easy; rather are they concerned in making your life reasonably difficult and rugged, so that decisions will be stimulated and multiplied. The presence of a great Thought Adjuster does not bestow ease of living and freedom from strenuous thinking, but such a divine gift should confer a sublime peace of mind and a superb tranquillity of spirit.
108:5.6 (1192.1) Your transient and ever-changing emotions of joy and sorrow are in the main purely human and material reactions to your internal psychic climate and to your external material environment. Do not, therefore, look to the Adjuster for selfish consolation and mortal comfort. It is the business of the Adjuster to prepare you for the eternal adventure, to assure your survival. It is not the mission of the Mystery Monitor to smooth your ruffled feelings or to minister to your injured pride; it is the preparation of your soul for the long ascending career that engages the attention and occupies the time of the Adjuster.
113:4.3 (1245.3) Seraphim function as teachers of men by guiding the footsteps of the human personality into paths of new and progressive experiences. To accept the guidance of a seraphim rarely means attaining a life of ease. In following this leading you are sure to encounter, and if you have the courage, to traverse, the rugged hills of moral choosing and spiritual progress.
Just to be clear – the source of one’s faith is to be celebrated…no matter its author or contents. It took many years and many readings for me to come to believe the claims of the authors of the Papers. You have misunderstood me if you think I belittle truth found in other places for I certainly have found truth in many different places myself and still do. Truth is where you find it.
We study the UB here. All beliefs, opinions, and other texts presented must be and are compared and contrasted WITH THE UB. This study method – comparative analysis – does not determine what is accurate or right or wrong. Not the point. The purpose is to determine similarities and contrasts or difference. That which conflicts or contradicts the UB is notable and relevant for study. So you have offered other works and personal wonderments…which have been compared to the UB. Some favorably and others not so much.
Believe what you will. Your beliefs are not subjects of my criticism or concern. But the UB says what it says and doesn’t say what it doesn’t. And that is what we study here .
The teacher always appears when the student is ready…always. One may be very surprised by who or what that teacher is. It is our faith that delivers the eternal adventure…not the source of our truths realized and not our knowledge…and not even epochal revelation. We must choose. And learn. And grow. That is all. Anyone can do it. Anyone at all!! Just to be clear.
Bradly
Michael says above: ” Yes Bradly, I am aware that you personally view some of my books in my collection as nonsense/false teachings – most people I know in life likely feel the same as you regarding books I have read in the past 15+ years. But you should realize that it doesn’t mean I fully believe all those books I have read, but they do stretch my mind to think outside the box, compared to what I used to believe, as does TUB. ”
And: “Likewise, when I refer to other sources/books in this forum, PLEASE search for the ORIGINAL books/sources that I mention, NOT what others have said about them. Then, IF you take the time to at least skim read the ORIGINAL sources, then I will have greater respect for you if you still decide not to accept them as valid sources. To me, that is the most fair & honest way to do research (& thus have fair & honest discussions). Other visitors to this forum will also appreciate such quality interaction, not just me.”
Hmmmm….actually the quotes I provided on the Revelation of Ramala were from earnest adherents and students of the text – not critics or debunkers. A most unfair charge and inaccurate comparison Michael. I even provided a link to a devotee which included a link to the work itself. And I made no comment whatsoever about the work myself. I just highlighted the description which definitely contrasts its claimed source and content from the UB’s claims for itself. Did I criticize the Revelation of Ramala? Nope. I actually provided a connection to the work and a believer in the work, for any and all to peruse and consider it for themselves.
Again, I have made NO judgments about your library OR your beliefs. I only compare those to the UB as best as I can. The fact that there are differences, noted or otherwise, should not cause offence or suggest that I believe that it’s the UB or nothing!! Nothing could be more false! I thought you wanted to know the differences between these texts/teachings and the UB? You have directly solicited such comparison and analysis. You have not asked for anyone’s agreements or confirmations of your beliefs but have sought out an understanding of the UB’s teachings on various matters related, so far, to reincarnation and supposed/alleged “memories” of past lives, seeking anything in the Revelation that might support or explain such memories in mortals. The Revelation of Ramala does not agree with or confirm the UB’s teachings on the matter. Sorry. It is what it is.
Which is not to say you should not believe in reincarnation or the RofR and which is not to say the UB is accurate and everything which contradicts it is wrong. Never said it. Wouldn’t say it. No point to saying it. I am not here to convince anyone of anything….except perhaps that the UB says what it says and doesn’t say what it doesn’t and the authors wrote what they wrote with intention and purpose and meant what they wrote and wrote what they meant to write. It is written to be read literally. It is not allegory or metaphor or coded mystery or shrouded in riddles for priests to unravel and interpret for the student.
I personally have found it to be written in such a way that new meanings emerge with every reading as one learns to hear the many pieces in this orchestra and one learns to appreciate the rhythm and harmonies and intricacies of each note and tonal qualities in this symphony of fact and truth. Each paragraph is like a thread of color in a woven tapestry which takes time and patience to discover the texture and patterns and total vision of this masterful work. To listen to a short refrain or pull a thread from the tapestry delivers absolutely no truth or vision or understanding or appreciation of this work. It is the body and entirety of the Papers that deliver its power and its meaning and its value. But such a study takes time and effort. While the reward is great, the pearls of truth found in life do not drop from the sky like lemon drops from rainbow fairies!! Effort is rewarded…with the glory of truth discovered.
And as I said before….God delivers truth to mind both directly by personal revelation and epochal revelation and by many methods and means every day to all who seek it. Where you find your truth Michael is immaterial to me…and I am quite certain of your faith, which is all that is needed for the eternal adventure!! Or so the Urantia Papers teach us!!
100:4.2 (1097.6) Religious perplexities are inevitable; there can be no growth without psychic conflict and spiritual agitation. The organization of a philosophic standard of living entails considerable commotion in the philosophic realms of the mind. Loyalties are not exercised in behalf of the great, the good, the true, and the noble without a struggle. Effort is attendant upon clarification of spiritual vision and enhancement of cosmic insight. And the human intellect protests against being weaned from subsisting upon the nonspiritual energies of temporal existence. The slothful animal mind rebels at the effort required to wrestle with cosmic problem solving.
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