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Posts
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Bonita asked:
“What is an absonite pre-echo?”
Good question. This concept appears in 105:7, “Eventuation of Transcendentals” ( 1159.6, 105:7.1 )
(1159.6, 105:7.1) “[…] From the creature standpoint, that which is transcendental would appear to have eventuated as a consequence of the finite; from the eternity viewpoint, in anticipation of the finite; and there are those who have considered it as a “pre-echo” of the finite.”
The “echo” would be that which “eventuates as a consequence of” finite-supreme actualization; the “pre” part of such a pre-echo would be the master architects sketching out the nature of the foundations their post-master universe plans require ( 1170.1, 106:7.8 ),
(1170.1, 106:7.8) “At the inconceivably distant future eternity moment of the final completion of the entire master universe, no doubt we will all look back upon its entire history as only the beginning, simply the creation of certain finite and transcendental foundations… “
These two statements illustrate beautifully how the Urantia Book presents a larger frame in which to think. The issue is that so few readers have yet noticed this breathtaking backdrop upon which the revelatory commission sketched their finite descriptions.
Bonita asked:
“I’m curious Nigel, why do you think the morontia level of reality only occupies a tiny slice of space? It’s my understanding that a great deal of the seven superuniverses consist of morontia reality. Isn’t that huge?”
Ah, I think I see the problem: in the personal, social, experiential domain, the values encapsulated in the morontia “woof” (0:5.12) of superuniverse energies are mind-bogglingly complex; but to an astronomer measuring (physical) space, the entire superuniverse space level (i.e. the “grand” universe) is a vanishingly small kernel at the heart of that “master” universe” referred to above.
Regarding the sort of “dimensions” that reflectivity transcends, that book by Lisa Randall does a good job of setting up appropriate definitions for the sort of discussion we are attempting here.
With regard to this “pre-echo” concept, I asked:
“Does this mean that the seven teams of Ancients-of-Days can somehow reflectively observe events at any moment in the evolution of their superuniverse domains, as well as at any location ?!”
Bonita replied:
“I don’t understand the question. Is it rhetorical? By location do you mean outer space levels? If so, no. Reflectivity is limited to the seven super universes. Are you asking if one superuniverse can observe reflectivity from another superuniverse? Not following.”
Bonita, by location, I meant any point in the space of their respective superuniverse domain; by any moment in the evolution of said domain, I meant any moment between that “pre” and “echo“. You can see the problem: from the Father’s absolute perspective, all supreme-level potentials are actuals. Thus in this unimaginable sense, the Father knows the perfected state of Michael’s Nebadon. Hence my question: as Supreme Trinity Personalities ( 208.7 18:2.2 ), how much of this eternal trinity perspective do the Ancients of Days share? Does reflectivity via Havona make available to them knowledge of the perfected state of Nebadon?
Clearly, the UB idea of transcendental subabsolute absonites being pre-echoes of finite realities does take a little reflection,
( 7.6, 0:4.8 ) “[…] Subabsolute realities are projected on two levels: Absonites — realities which are relative with respect to both time and eternity. Finites — realities which are projected in space and are actualized in time.
Regarding the actual nature of space, Bonita asked:
“But what about midspace? Midspace comes in actual contact with Paradise, incapsulates all of space, but doesn’t move, as far as I can tell. What’s up with that? Why isn’t midspace part of space? Is it the transition zone between pre-space and space, pre-time and time? I have to say I never bothered to study that.”
George, with regard to your comments and questions, I’d suggest further reflection on Bonita’s (perfectly timed) question. Once we consider midspace (a “relative extension of Paradise”), our assumptions about what we think we know start to soften.
Regarding the assumptions woven into that Planck report, recall that the microwave background is assumed to be a surface of last scattering a mere 14 billion years old. As I understand the UB, Michael of Nebadon had finished training his Lanonandeks way before that. If so, then every assumption in that Planck report (e.g. red-shifting that surface to microwaves) melts away.
Which, for cosmologists, means we are in interesting times
Thanks for this excellent discussion,
Nigel
Hence my question: as Supreme Trinity Personalities ( 208.7 18:2.2 ), how much of this eternal trinity perspective do the Ancients of Days share? Does reflectivity via Havona make available to them knowledge of the perfected state of Nebadon?
Oh, okay. So you want to know if reflectivity can make available all past, present and future occurrences and possibilities . . . the ability to see the work already completed, already perfected, all the available potentials made actual? Well, so far I haven’t read anything that says that, but I’m still reading. I think reflectivity is about actualities rather than potentialities . . . but I could be wrong, still studying this.
The “echo” would be that which “eventuates as a consequence of” finite-supreme actualization; the “pre” part of such a pre-echo would be the master architects sketching out the nature of the foundations their post-master universe plans require ( 1170.1, 106:7.8 ),
So, to help me understand, are you saying that all transcendentals are absonite? Another question: Why wouldn’t a pre-echo be absolute, the original first ‘sound’ be absonite and the echo be finite? I would think transcendentals are the fulfillment of the maximum potential of finites while still being subabsolute.
Bonita wrote:…are you saying pre-space, mid-space, and space are three dimensions of total space? Or are they merely three zones or levels of total space? I do agree with what I think you said (could be wrong), that the universe is three dimensional when it comes to the finite.
My thought is that Paradise pre-space and midspace are three-dimensional in the same way that finite space is three-dimensional. This seems to follow from the fact that Paradise has a definite geometric form, even though it does not exist in space. However, these different “spaces” co-exist in the same “place” but on different levels of reality: pre-space is absolute and actually infinite; midspace is relatively absolute and potentially infinite; master universe space is transcendental and ultimate in extent; grand universe space is finite and supreme in extent. What finally distinguishes these different levels of three-dimensionality is the nature of time on each, and time changes according to motion relative to Paradise.
Time comes by virtue of motion and because mind is inherently aware of sequentiality. From a practical viewpoint, motion is essential to time… 12:5.1
There are seven different conceptions of space as it is conditioned by time. Space is measured by time, not time by space. 130:7.6
I think the “seven dimensions of personality realization” refer to spiritual (vertical depth), mindal (breadth), and material (length) dimensions of personal experience on finite, absonite, and absolute levels of reality. I don’t think they refer to seven actual spatial dimensions.
Nigel Nunn wrote:Regarding the assumptions woven into that Planck report, recall that the microwave background is assumed to be a surface of last scattering a mere 14 billion years old.
Nigel, if you will take the time to review their work, you will discover their mathematically based conclusion that universe spacetime is flat does not assume the CMB radiation has any specific age, such as 13.8 billion years. Neither does it require any assumptions about what or how this radiation is originally emitted. It only looks at how this highly uniform radiation should appear to us after passing through space with a particular type of geometry, which they definitely determine is Euclidean.
Given the high level of credibility which virtually all astrophysicists attribute to this finding from the Planck Mission, perhaps it is time to reconsider your assumptions about the universe having seven spatial dimensions.
There are seven different conceptions of space as it is conditioned by time. Space is measured by time, not time by space. 130:7.6
Great quote! It states there are seven conceptions, not seven dimensions, of space. Don’t conceptions have to do with mind and consciousness? The ability to perceive and understand all seven is possible only if considering the elliptic symmetry of all reality and the curvature of all relation concepts (103:6.14) which result in circular simultaneity (130:7.5). It appears to be a mind thing.
Bonita wrote:
… there are seven conceptions, not seven dimensions, of space. Don’t conceptions have to do with mind and consciousness? The ability to perceive and understand all seven is possible only if considering the elliptic symmetry of all reality and the curvature of all relation concepts (103:6.14) which result in circular simultaneity (130:7.5). It appears to be a mind thing.
You offer a valuable insight here, I think. There are seven different conceptions of three-dimensional space, as conditioned by seven different perceptions of time, and the perception of time certainly depends upon the level of mind; it is “a mind thing.” The level of mind depends, in turn, upon its association with spirit, which has a different perception of time than does mind.
Spirit-perceived time—insight into motion Godward and the awareness of the motion of ascent to levels of increasing divinity. 12:5.8
Spirit is cognizant of ascending levels of time consciousness which condition the conception of space. It recognizes the possibility of motion from the finite level of time-space to the absolute level of eternal Paradise. Your reference to the relationship between the linear sequence of time and the circular simultaneity of eternity is an illustration of how time perception changes as man ascends toward higher levels of spiritual mindedness.
…to man, because of his sectional and circumscribed view, time appears as a succession of events; but as man ascends, as he progresses inward, the enlarging view of this event procession is such that it is discerned more and more in its wholeness. That which formerly appeared as a succession of events then will be viewed as a whole and perfectly related cycle; in this way will circular simultaneity increasingly displace the onetime consciousness of the linear sequence of events. 130:7.5
While Jesus gives a clear explanation, it is still quite difficult to relate our perception of the linear sequence of temporal events to the circular simultaneity of eternity events; to associate spirit-perceived time and mind-perceived time in personal experience.
Thanks George. They do tell us that we humans, while living in the flesh, change our time perception as we mature. The following quotes give us a glimpse into how maturity leads to the elliptic symmetry of all reality, the curvature of all relation concepts resulting in circular simultaneity.
118:1.5 In the maturity of the developing self, the past and future are brought together to illuminate the true meaning of the present. As the self matures, it reaches further and further back into the past for experience, while its wisdom forecasts seek to penetrate deeper and deeper into the unknown future. And as the conceiving self extends this reach ever further into both past and future, so does judgment become less and less dependent on the momentary present. In this way does decision-action begin to escape from the fetters of the moving present, while it begins to take on the aspects of past-future significance.
118:18 The time unit of immaturity concentrates meaning-value into the present moment in such a way as to divorce the present of its true relationship to the not-present–the past-future. The time unit of maturity is proportioned so to reveal the co-ordinate relationship of past-present-future that the self begins to gain insight into the wholeness of events, begins to view the landscape of time from the panoramic perspective of broadened horizons, begins perhaps to suspect the nonbeginning, nonending eternal continuum, the fragments of which are called time.
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There are seven different conceptions of space as it is conditioned by time. Space is measured by time, not time by space. 130:7.6
Great quote! It states there are seven conceptions, not seven dimensions, of space. Don’t conceptions have to do with mind and consciousness? The ability to perceive and understand all seven is possible only if considering the elliptic symmetry of all reality and the curvature of all relation concepts (103:6.14) which result in circular simultaneity (130:7.5). It appears to be a mind thing.
I look forward to tying these concepts to the functionality of reflectivity…..how are time and space related to the collection and transfer of data by reflectivity? I agree that mind transcends both time and space…the more spiritized and experienced, the more mind itself can be independent of either/both. And the relationship of the Creator Sons and the Creative Spirit to both time and space is a fascinating harmonization of local universe balance. While I like the idea of “seven different conceptions” of space as conditioned by “time” – further in the same text of 130:7 we also read confirmation of seven dimensions:
130:7.7 (1439.5) It must be apparent that universal reality has an expanding and always relative meaning on the ascending and perfecting levels of the cosmos. Ultimately, surviving mortals achieve identity in a seven-dimensional universe.
Nigel Nunn wrote: Hence my question: as Supreme Trinity Personalities ( 208.7 18:2.2 ), how much of this eternal trinity perspective do the Ancients of Days share? Does reflectivity via Havona make available to them knowledge of the perfected state of Nebadon?
Bonita: Oh, okay. So you want to know if reflectivity can make available all past, present and future occurrences and possibilities . . . the ability to see the work already completed, already perfected, all the available potentials made actual? Well, so far I haven’t read anything that says that, but I’m still reading. I think reflectivity is about actualities rather than potentialities . . . but I could be wrong, still studying this.
I don’t know about the reflectivity of the future but past and present to be sure – and if time or time within eternity also includes something we call the future, then those minds with such dimensionality should also be able to utilize reflectivity to share that with other minds of such dimensionality. I recall that the great pageants performed and reversion are both aided by reflectivity and that reflectivity can be ‘focalized’ to anywhere and anywhen and any mind with sufficient ability to discern. I’m wondering if it wasn’t reflectivity that ‘took’ John to his vision of personal revelation (‘delivered’ would be a more accurate term than ‘took’ as John did not personally attend this in body – there’s the ‘mind’ thing again Bonita brought up)?
While I like the idea of “seven different conceptions” of space as conditioned by “time” – further in the same text of 130:7 we also read confirmation of seven dimensions:130:7.7 (1439.5) It must be apparent that universal reality has an expanding and always relative meaning on the ascending and perfecting levels of the cosmos. Ultimately, surviving mortals achieve identity in a seven-dimensional universe.
I think they’re still talking about the seven dimensions of self-expression, person-realization, or identity for personality rather than space dimensions. That would be three on the finite, three on the absonite and one on the absolute universe levels of reality. The finite level is three dimensional, (length,breadth and depth); on the absonite level I would guess there are three brand new transcendental dimensions, and yet another on the absolute level, for seven in all.
I’m wondering if it wasn’t reflectivity that ‘took’ John to his vision of personal revelation (‘delivered’ would be a more accurate term than ‘took’ as John did not personally attend this in body
Are you suggesting that humans can access reflectivity services while in the flesh and without an Adjuster? And without a harp of God? Interesting.
I am suggesting that humans can access reflectivity …..with…an Adjuster’s help as they can avail themselves of the circuit. And that some humans receive personal revelation that is a visualization delivered by reflectivity. I wouldn’t know about without…..do people have personal revelation and a source for that without a TA?
I am suggesting that humans can access reflectivity …..with…an Adjuster’s help as they can avail themselves of the circuit. And that some humans receive personal revelation that is a visualization delivered by reflectivity. I wouldn’t know about without…..do people have personal revelation and a source for that without a TA?
But John had his vision of the third heaven when he was asleep, while his Adjuster was absent, and when he was presumably being babysat by a midwayer. Are you saying that the Adjuster deliberately used the reflectivity service to project a vision of the mansion world back to John’s material mind? Who made the projection in the following quote, the Adjuster or John? It says the projection was made TO the mansion world, but from where? I don’t understand.
48:6.23 When the apostle spoke of being “caught up to the third heaven,” he referred to that experience in which his Adjuster was detached during sleep and in this unusual state made a projection to the third of the seven mansion worlds.
Would you mind explaining your understanding of the mechanism by which humans have visions by utilizing reflectivity? I haven’t heard that before and I don’t recall reading anything about it, although I’m still studying the subject. Coulda missed it. I did read that ascending mortals cannot access reflectivity without utilizing a person, agent, of reflectivity. I don’t know if they mean ascending sons or faith sons, but regardless, it seems like it’s something we might need to arrange in order to have access to, which is not really possible while in the flesh. And the quote doesn’t mention the Adjuster.
17:4.3 As a class, ascending mortals do not intimately contact with reflectivity. Always some being of the reflective nature will be interposed between you and the actual operation of the service.
I recall reading that some of the celestial artisins use reflectivity to broadcast musical harmonies, some that are available to mortals that we have not experienced yet??
trying to find the paper.
Hi everyone,
9:7.1 (105.1) The Conjoint Actor is able to co-ordinate all levels of universe actuality in such manner as to make possible the simultaneous recognition of the mental, the material, and the spiritual. This is the phenomenon of universe reflectivity, that unique and inexplicable power to see, hear, sense, and know all things as they transpire throughout a superuniverse, and to. mfocalize, by reflectivity, all this information and knowledge at any desired point.
André
I am suggesting that humans can access reflectivity …..with…an Adjuster’s help as they can avail themselves of the circuit. And that some humans receive personal revelation that is a visualization delivered by reflectivity. I wouldn’t know about without…..do people have personal revelation and a source for that without a TA?
But John had his vision of the third heaven when he was asleep, while his Adjuster was absent, and when he was presumably being babysat by a midwayer. Are you saying that the Adjuster deliberately used the reflectivity service to project a vision of the mansion world back to John’s material mind? Who made the projection in the following quote, the Adjuster or John? It says the projection was made TO the mansion world, but from where? I don’t understand.
48:6.23 When the apostle spoke of being “caught up to the third heaven,” he referred to that experience in which his Adjuster was detached during sleep and in this unusual state made a projection to the third of the seven mansion worlds.
Would you mind explaining your understanding of the mechanism by which humans have visions by utilizing reflectivity? I haven’t heard that before and I don’t recall reading anything about it, although I’m still studying the subject. Coulda missed it. I did read that ascending mortals cannot access reflectivity without utilizing a person, agent, of reflectivity. I don’t know if they mean ascending sons or faith sons, but regardless, it seems like it’s something we might need to arrange in order to have access to, which is not really possible while in the flesh. And the quote doesn’t mention the Adjuster.
17:4.3 As a class, ascending mortals do not intimately contact with reflectivity. Always some being of the reflective nature will be interposed between you and the actual operation of the service.
Just to be clear…I don’t have ‘visions’ and don’t believe most visions are personal revelation…but, rather, the mind at mischief!
I am inquiring and speculating regarding reflectivity and personal revelation only. We are told that there are visions related to personal revelation in some cases….so are those a function of reflectivity…or something else?
I am inquiring and speculating regarding reflectivity and personal revelation only. We are told that there are visions related to personal revelation in some cases….so are those a function of reflectivity…or something else?
Oh, so it’s your theory that the reflectivity service plays a role in personal revelation? And I think you are also saying that visions are a form of personal revelation? That’s an interesting angle. Certainly the vision Mary had of Gabriel was a personal revelation, but I don’t recall TUB mentioning anything about reflectivity . . . could be wrong.
I think personal revelation is a spiritual experience whereas reflectivity is an intelligence service. I don’t see where the two intersect exactly. I also don’t see why an Adjuster would even need to utilize reflectivity in order to provide the personal revelation experience. I was hoping you also had a theory of how it all worked.
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