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I’ll try to clarify: Neither the TA or seraphim experiences the conflicts listed….the mortal mind has such conflict by its dual nature which delivers “difficulties” for the TA and ministry of seraphim.
Bradly you say that “neither the TA or Seraphim experiences”, okay, however, if this were true how is it that the UB presents that list as indicated “This seraphim said:” and then precedes as “Much of my difficulty was due to the unending conflict between the two natures of my subject:” which was presented in quotation marks, where if the Seraphim cannot “experience” what their “subject” either experiences or undergo, then why would the UB indicate that the Seraphim states “my difficulty” where it may also imply that the Seraphim may have influenced or attempted to influence their subject, and was able to discern those “conflicts” presented from their influence.
Granted that the narration in question is after the fact of the subjects death but, still in life the Seraphim would need to be able to experience or retain these things even if only through a conjoint-like function. Therefore, being that these are internal functions of the mind, it would be evident that the Seraphim are able to relate or have a reflection of the subject’s mind, and were it not true, how would the Seraphim be able to influence the subject?
Bradly wrote: I’ll try to clarify: Neither the TA or seraphim experiences the conflicts listed….the mortal mind has such conflict by its dual nature which delivers “difficulties” for the TA and ministry of seraphim.
Bradly you say that “neither the TA or Seraphim experiences”, okay, however, if this were true how is it that the UB presents that list as indicated “This seraphim said:” and then precedes as “Much of my difficulty was due to the unending conflict between the two natures of my subject:” which was presented in quotation marks, where if the Seraphim cannot “experience” what their “subject” either experiences or undergo, then why would the UB indicate that the Seraphim states “my difficulty” where it may also imply that the Seraphim may have influenced or attempted to influence their subject, and was able to discern those “conflicts” presented from their influence.
Me here: I think what is meant is that the Seraphim experiences “difficulty” due to the mortal mind’s experience of “conflict”. They are not the same experience at all. “Much of my difficulty” is due to “the unending conflict” of the duality of mortal mind. There is a clear differentiation expressed between the two experiences described in the quote. The awareness that the TA and/or seraphim may have OF the experience in the mortal mind is not the same as having the same experience. I have no idea what you mean to imply by claiming that “it may also imply” that the seraphim or TA “influenced” the subject. Mara provided much text on the sanctity of free will and how these ministers attempt to “lead” us to decisions and through choices to actualize our spirit realizations. So you would need to clarify the ambiguity in the word “influenced” to go further with that discussion.
So you would need to clarify the ambiguity in the word “influenced” to go further with that discussion.
Thanks for responding Bradly, and I used the word “influenced” or “influence” based on the UB narrative within that section which is in question. However, if I may present some UB quotes which may shed some light on where I hope to conjoin the spirit influence on an individual, as you have mentioned any influence would be subject to that individuals free-will but, prior to that individual making a free-will choice, the minds processing may be presented with various options which the normal individual would use in order to make that free-will choice. The UB mentions and uses the word “influence” and its derivative many times where it is associated and directed to the individual, either by the TA or other spirit entity, therefore I present the following few as a starter to the issue of “influence”.
(63.5) 5:1.7 Man is spiritually indwelt by a surviving Thought Adjuster. If such a human mind is sincerely and spiritually motivated, if such a human soul desires to know God and become like him, honestly wants to do the Father’s will, there exists no negative influence of mortal deprivation nor positive power of possible interference which can prevent such a divinely motivated soul from securely ascending to the portals of Paradise.
The previous UB quote is to indicate that there is a control factor with the individual where by to make a free-will choice.
(64.7) 5:2.4 It is because of this God fragment that indwells you that you can hope, as you progress in harmonizing with the Adjuster’s spiritual leadings, more fully to discern the presence and transforming power of those other spiritual influences that surround you and impinge upon you but do not function as an integral part of you. The fact that you are not intellectually conscious of close and intimate contact with the indwelling Adjuster does not in the least disprove such an exalted experience. The proof of fraternity with the divine Adjuster consists wholly in the nature and extent of the fruits of the spirit which are yielded in the life experience of the individual believer. “By their fruits you shall know them.”
(95.7) 8:5.4 There are many spiritual influences, and they are all as one. Even the work of the Thought Adjusters, though independent of all other influences, unvaryingly coincides with the spirit ministry of the combined influences of the Infinite Spirit and a local universe Mother Spirit. As these spiritual presences operate in the lives of Urantians, they cannot be segregated. In your minds and upon your souls they function as one spirit, notwithstanding their diverse origins. And as this united spiritual ministration is experienced, it becomes to you the influence of the Supreme, “who is ever able to keep you from failing and to present you blameless before your Father on high.”
I will present more which are associated to and with Seraphim, as the discussion progresses and if warranted.
In addition you stated in your post ‘“Much of my difficulty” is due to “the unending conflict” of the duality of mortal mind.’ Where I understand your statement but, would you agree that the “duality” can be generally defined as “spiritual” vs. “material” or the animal influence of the individual?
. . . there is a control factor with the individual where by to make a free-will choice.
Free-will choice is limited by the range of choice of one’s status sphere.
118:6:5 Volition on any level short of the absolute encounters limitations which are constitutive in the very personality exercising the power of choice. Man cannot choose beyond the range of that which is choosable. He cannot, for instance, choose to be other than a human being except that he can elect to become more than a man; he can choose to embark upon the voyage of universe ascension, but this is because the human choice and the divine will happen to be coincident upon this point. And what a son desires and the Father wills will certainly come to pass.(95.7) 8:5.4 There are many spiritual influences, and they are all as one. Even the work of the Thought Adjusters, though independent of all other influences, unvaryingly coincides with the spirit ministry of the combined influences of the Infinite Spirit and a local universe Mother Spirit. As these spiritual presences operate in the lives of Urantians, they cannot be segregated. In your minds and upon your souls they function as one spirit, notwithstanding their diverse origins. And as this united spiritual ministration is experienced, it becomes to you the influence of the Supreme, “who is ever able to keep you from failing and to present you blameless before your Father on high.”
This is one of my favs Midi, and I highlight “and they are all as one,” as it is italicized in the original text.
Here is another reference pertaining to what is intrusted to the guardian seraphim, the seraphic destiny guardian, upon mortal death.
47:3:3 The mortal-mind transcripts and the active creature-memory patterns as transformed from the material levels to the spiritual are the individual possession of the detached Thought Adjusters; these spiritized factors of mind, memory, and creature personality are forever a part of such Adjusters. The creature mind-matrix and the passive potentials of identity are present in the morontia soul intrusted to the keeping of the seraphic destiny guardians. And it is the reuniting of the morontia-soul trust of the seraphim and the spirit-mind trust of the Adjuster that reassembles creature personality and constitutes resurrection of a sleeping survivor..Some of these guardian seraphim are intrusted with groups of individuals, because each individual in the group did not achieve the requisites during life to be given a personal guardian seraphim.49:6:7 Thus are the sleeping survivors of a planetary age repersonalized in the dispensational roll calls. But with regard to the nonsalvable personalities of a realm, no immortal spirit is present to function with the group guardians of destiny, and this constitutes cessation of creature existence. While some of your records have pictured these events as taking place on the planets of mortal death, they all really occur on the mansion worlds..49:6:8 2. Mortals of the individual orders of ascension. The individual progress of human beings is measured by their successive attainment and traversal (mastery) of the seven cosmic circles. These circles of mortal progression are levels of associated intellectual, social, spiritual, and cosmic-insight values. Starting out in the seventh circle, mortals strive for the first, and all who have attained the third immediately have personal guardians of destiny assigned to them. These mortals may be repersonalized in the morontia life independent of dispensational or other adjudications.
Free-will choice is limited by the range of choice of one’s status sphere.
118:6:5 Volition on any level short of the absolute encounters limitations which are constitutive in the very personality exercising the power of choice. Man cannot choose beyond the range of that which is choosable. He cannot, for instance, choose to be other than a human being except that he can elect to become more than a man; he can choose to embark upon the voyage of universe ascension, but this is because the human choice and the divine will happen to be coincident upon this point. And what a son desires and the Father wills will certainly come to pass.
Mara, as you choose the UB quote listed above, please not the highlighted word “coincident” where its definition is: “happening at the same time”, ” occupying the same place or position” or “in exact agreement (usually followed by with).” It is used above specifically in reference to “the human choice and the divine will” and its “choose to embark upon the voyage of universe ascension,” therefore it would seem that all human free-will choice can be dependent on the choice being presented or made, however all choice may not be “coincident.”
You also used “status sphere” in your statement above, which has interesting references in the UB. Presenting specific UB quotes where it is used may not present an actual definition for its use, and you may wish to present you opinion as to your usage above. However, what I believe, as to its usage in the UB for the most part has some reference to “worlds” where this word can have several references when used but, as I read it, and as it refers to “they are all as one” is a reference to “time” in that even thought the human mind and eye may only perceive time frequency in relation to light reflection, a slight shift in frequency of light can alter visible time, whereby multiple “worlds” in reference to time can exist within the same relative “coincident” – “occupying the same place or position” – thereby the reference to “status sphere” might indicate a point of reference in time within or on the same sphere but with just slightly difference in frequency whereby these worlds could be considered as multi-dimensional, yet still relative to the same place or position.
You also used “status sphere” in your statement. . . .
It is this status sphere to which I am referring:
48:6:37 You will learn that you increase your burdens and decrease the likelihood of success by taking yourself too seriously. Nothing can take precedence over the work of your status sphere — this world or the next. Very important is the work of preparation for the next higher sphere, but nothing equals the importance of the work of the world in which you are actually living. But though the work is important, the self is not. When you feel important, you lose energy to the wear and tear of ego dignity so that there is little energy left to do the work. Self-importance, not work-importance, exhausts immature creatures; it is the self element that exhausts, not the effort to achieve. You can do important work if you do not become self-important; you can do several things as easily as one if you leave yourself out. Variety is restful; monotony is what wears and exhausts. Day after day is alike — just life or the alternative of death..Our status sphere is planet earth and we are finite mortals of ascension potential.Here’s a bit about the “jubilees” of ascending sons. I have taken the liberty to make this paragraph into a list.
27:7:8 […] The first jubilee marked the mortal agreement with the Thought Adjuster when the purpose to survive was sealed;.the second was the awakening in the morontia life;.the third was the fusion with the Thought Adjuster;.the fourth was the awakening in Havona;.the fifth celebrated the finding of the Universal Father;.and the sixth jubilee was the occasion of the Paradise awakening from the final transit slumber of time..The seventh jubilee marks entrance into the mortal finaliter corps and the beginning of the eternity service..The attainment of the seventh stage of spirit realization by a finaliter will probably signalize the celebration of the first of the jubilees of eternity.
MidiChlorian wrote: You also used “status sphere” in your statement. . .
It is this status sphere to which I am referring:
48:6:37 You will learn that you increase your burdens and decrease the likelihood of success by taking yourself too seriously. Nothing can take precedence over the work of your status sphere — this world or the next. Very important is the work of preparation for the next higher sphere, but nothing equals the importance of the work of the world in which you are actually living. But though the work is important, the self is not. When you feel important, you lose energy to the wear and tear of ego dignity so that there is little energy left to do the work. Self-importance, not work-importance, exhausts immature creatures; it is the self element that exhausts, not the effort to achieve. You can do important work if you do not become self-important; you can do several things as easily as one if you leave yourself out. Variety is restful; monotony is what wears and exhausts. Day after day is alike — just life or the alternative of death.
Our status sphere is planet earth and we are finite mortals of ascension potential.
Mara, your reference to the use of “status sphere” in the UB quote listed above, would be a common understanding of the use of the word “sphere” and may very well be the intended usage intended by the authors but in the various usages of the word “status”, used about 438 times in the UB, it is used as a “noun”, where in a few cases it is used as an adjective.
- status sphere
- status companion
- status wife
- status worlds
- status evolution
The usage of the words “status” above, are used as adjectives, and would indicate a position or standing.
Where in the use of “status world” in the following UB quote, has been qualified as not being a residence of actual location.
(148.5) 13:2.6 The worlds of the inner circuit are really fraternal or status worlds more than actual residential spheres. Mortals will attain some status on each of the Father’s worlds save one. For example: When you mortals attain Havona, you are granted clearance for Ascendington, where you are most welcome, but you are not permitted to visit the other six sacred worlds. Subsequent to your passage through the Paradise regime and after your admission to the Corps of the Finality, you are granted clearance for Sonarington since you are sons of God as well as ascenders — and you are even more. But there will always remain one seventh of Sonarington, the sector of the incarnation secrets of the divine Sons, which will not be open to your scrutiny. Never will those secrets be revealed to the ascendant sons of God.
As it is used above – “When you mortals attain Havona, you are granted clearance” which might be considered a security status, so to speak, in that – “Mortals will attain some status”, which can be associated to a level or degree of advancement which is a “granted clearance” to proceed or the ability to proceed.
In your UB reference quote above, where you highlighted – “Nothing can take precedence over the work of your status sphere — this world or the next.” Where it is “the work” which takes “precedence” as your status or level of ability, which one has achieved and, the reference to “this world or the next” would not necessarily be linked to “sphere” as one might associate with “this world” or “Earth”?
The sentence which follows – “Very important is the work of preparation for the next higher sphere, but nothing equals the importance of the work of the world in which you are actually living.” – would imply that “status sphere” is associated to your local world which you live but, “the work of preparation” is the focal point, which would elevate one’s status “higher” for the next level or preparedness, where “status sphere” might be associated to circle status or circuit status?
(156.1) 14:3.4 The billion spheres of the central universe constitute the training worlds of the high personalities native to Paradise and Havona and further serve as the final proving grounds for ascending creatures from the evolutionary worlds of time. In the execution of the Universal Father’s great plan of creature ascension the pilgrims of time are landed on the receiving worlds of the outer or seventh circuit, and subsequent to increased training and enlarged experience, they are progressively advanced inward, planet by planet and circle by circle, until they finally attain the Deities and achieve residence on Paradise.
Realistically, if an ascension creature had to progress through a “billion spheres” in order to “finally attain the Deities” to “achieve residence” status “on Paradise”, it would take an eternity to get to Paradise.
. . . a “billion spheres” in order to “finally attain the Deities” to “achieve residence” status “on Paradise”, it would take an eternity to get to Paradise.
Are you in a hurry?
Those billion spheres are of the seven Havona circuits.14:1:11 Time is not reckoned on Paradise; the sequence of successive events is inherent in the concept of those who are indigenous to the central Isle. But time is germane to the Havona circuits and to numerous beings of both celestial and terrestrial origin sojourning thereon. Each Havona world has its own local time, determined by its circuit. All worlds in a given circuit have the same length of year since they uniformly swing around Paradise, and the length of these planetary years decreases from the outermost to the innermost circuit..14:3:4 The billion spheres of the central universe constitute the training worlds of the high personalities native to Paradise and Havona and further serve as the final proving grounds for ascending creatures from the evolutionary worlds of time. In the execution of the Universal Father’s great plan of creature ascension the pilgrims of time are landed on the receiving worlds of the outer or seventh circuit, and subsequent to increased training and enlarged experience, they are progressively advanced inward, planet by planet and circle by circle, until they finally attain the Deities and achieve residence on Paradise..14:5:7 Not until you traverse the last of the Havona circuits and visit the last of the Havona worlds, will the tonic of adventure and the stimulus of curiosity disappear from your career. And then will the urge, the forward impulse of eternity, replace its forerunner, the adventure lure of time.
MidiChlorian wrote: . . . a “billion spheres” in order to “finally attain the Deities” to “achieve residence” status “on Paradise”, it would take an eternity to get to Paradise.
Are you in a hurry? Those billion spheres are of the seven Havona circuits.
Actually, been there, done that. My current focus is on the outer realms.
Actually, been there, done that. My current focus is on the outer realms.
Hmmmm. I doubt you’ve been there done that. All of us are students of the text of the book. Each one of us is one of God’s children. And each of us have an adjuster. But no one of us is more special than anyone else, as God is no respecter of persons. We are brother and sister in life and equal to each other in the eyes of God. I will look you up when I get to Mansonia and you and I will have a good talk.
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146:7:2 Jesus further explained to his apostles that the spirits of departed human beings do not come back to the world of their origin to communicate with their living fellows. Only after the passing of a dispensational age would it be possible for the advancing spirit of mortal man to return to earth and then only in exceptional cases and as a part of the spiritual administration of the planet..112:3:7 Upon death the Thought Adjuster temporarily loses personality, but not identity; the human subject temporarily loses identity, but not personality; on the mansion worlds both reunite in eternal manifestation. Never does a departed Thought Adjuster return to earth as the being of former indwelling; never is personality manifested without the human will; and never does a dis-Adjustered human being after death manifest active identity or in any manner establish communication with the living beings of earth. Such dis-Adjustered souls are wholly and absolutely unconscious during the long or short sleep of death. There can be no exhibition of any sort of personality or ability to engage in communications with other personalities until after completion of survival. Those who go to the mansion worlds are not permitted to send messages back to their loved ones. It is the policy throughout the universes to forbid such communication during the period of a current dispensation..Upon resurrection on Mansonia:112:5:18 2. The return of the Adjuster to the waiting morontia creature. The Adjuster is the eternal custodian of your ascending identity; your Monitor is the absolute assurance that you yourself and not another will occupy the morontia form created for your personality awakening. And the Adjuster will be present at your personality reassembly to take up once more the role of Paradise guide to your surviving self.
And each of us have an adjuster.
Are you sure about this? Read the book further and you may find something different?
Actually, been there, done that. My current focus is on the outer realms.
Can you clarify what you mean by this statement. Taken literally, it seems as if you are claiming to have already attained Havona, which I am sure is not the case.
MidiChlorian wrote: Actually, been there, done that. My current focus is on the outer realms.
Can you clarify what you mean by this statement. Taken literally, it seems as if you are claiming to have already attained Havona, which I am sure is not the case.
No I cannot clarify my statement but I can submit the following:
(147.4) 13:1.23 You will never fully understand this mysterious transaction until you reach Ascendington. And that is just why all Ascendington will be open to your wondering gaze. One seventh of Ascendington is forbidden to me — that sector concerned with this very secret which is (or will be) the exclusive experience and possession of your type of being. This experience belongs to your human order of existence. My order of personality is not directly concerned with such transactions. It is therefore forbidden to me and eventually revealed to you. But even after it is revealed to you, for some reason it forever remains your secret. You do not reveal it to us nor to any other order of beings. We know about the eternal fusion of a divine Adjuster and an immortal soul of human origin, but the ascendant finaliters know this very experience as an absolute reality.
Who knows for sure?
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