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A ‘literalist’ however is not someone who believes the claims made but only believes this: the UB says what it says and does not say what it does not AND the authors said what they meant/intended and intended/meant what they said. Simple. No demand to agree with or believe what is written….only a confidence in its sincerity and intent….a literalist….that’s me.
Bradly, I’ve become used to your expression which you use readily, over and over again, but I also might suggest a change, because as I have mentioned in the past “the UB cannot say anything” without the interpretation of the reader. However, you also present that the “authors said”, where again it implies that one can understand that the authors admit to a disadvantage which they have in the way that they must present the information in the UB, therefore have assumed the best way in which to present what they can or are allowed to present. They have also indicated that because they are mandated or forbidden to reveal many things which may alter our understanding of their presentations, be it because by presenting more of, or accurate data, especially that which might alter our future, regardless of truth as might be considered at any given time of reading, it would seem that what may be considered as truth is their viewpoint from the time of their presentation. What they have not presented to use, or omitted, for our own good, would be understandable but at the same time, the presentation of the UB at its time, would also violate this same mandate of sorts, but when one examines the information presented therein, one can see that much of this information has already been revealed to mankind, only in different forms of writings within this world’s history. Many of the so called corrections which they present have been pondered by many over the years, therefore not information that would change the future in such a way as to cause issues but merely to present the actual from other speculations made by others.
To the point of what the UB “does not say what it does not”, would also fall into the area of the authors indicating that they cannot mention things that they are not allowed to, but having indicated that they cannot do something, for specific reasons, specifies that there is much more that they have not “said” which would also change what they have “said”. Therefore, by stating that there is more to the truth they present, makes many student readers of the UB, ponder what has been presented, they would naturally ponder over what was not presented. It might also seem that the authors, having presented information in such a way as to be slightly confusing would have done so in order to stimulate a better understanding of what the authors want us to think they actually intended to “say” by not “saying” something?
So, being a ‘literalist’ as you profess, is fine for you, but your literal interpretation, of what you understand the authors “meant/intended and intended/meant” to “say”, is limited to your own insight to the truth. In the same sense, that your repetitive statement above, would imply that the UB has only a black or white interpretation, and that there is no room for any gray area in-between.
Midi – oh I see plenty of “grey” for sure and am often perplexed and remain curious about what I don’t yet understand. That’s why I ask lots of questions here and elsewhere and everywhere….there’s so much to learn! Am/nod/Enno snipped a post of mine here to “share” at TruthBook recently where he criticized me for being confused and confusing others when I asked a sincere question here but quipped it might only add to my confusion as though he is not confused and mine is unworthy somehow. One of my favorite sayings is – if you’re not confused then you’re not paying attention…..for there is plenty to be confused about….not everything of course…but plenty nonetheless.
I’ll not be toyed with by one who claims to believe in the UB and love it and post for weeks about how the UB is Dangerous – which is it? What’s the inconsistency mean? Isn’t sincerity the key to the kingdom? I sincerely hope that some pondering might bring understanding and an alignment with reality….and so I hope for us all.
Direct contradictions of the text is not an in between or gray area Midi….but yes there’s plenty to discover in the perspectives and understandings of others…..we are all living our own version of truth and reality….and mine is no more important than any other’s.
As to understanding the text as written and presented….not only do different people find different confirmations of truth and a different set of fact-priorities-connections that every student is having a very personal educational experience (and hopefully a spiritual one too if actually practicing the teachings of prayer and worship and love and service), but also every reading for me has delivered new meanings and new forms of value delivering new truth from the same material Amazing to consider and one of the primary reasons for my eventual conclusion that no mortal mind authored this gift.
Regarding a certain voice you may be speaking of – the consistency of a voice is important; meaning one who constantly contradicts themselves AND the Papers is a perplexion. I am pondering it………………= )
Bonita…your call. Certainly worthy of its own topic….a long one. Related to Agondonters in so many ways. I’m good either way.
Recommended:
Paper 170
The Kingdom of HeavenJesus used five different definitions…something to ponder and understand and put into context. = )
Amazing to consider and one of the primary reasons for my eventual conclusion that no mortal mind authored this gift.
Interesting Bradly, in a sense the authors have indicated that some of the information presented in the UB, specifically Part four, came from some forms of mortal minds, but I would agree that it is “amazing to consider”, but not impossible to think, where are you familiar with the writings associated to the Mormons, where it also seems that those writings were presented in a similar manor as the UB? And having some study in those text, I have found a large similarity in the context that they contain with what is presented in the UB. So, even though the information was presented in a similar manor, the transcripts, and composition of either, is not out of the question that mortal minds could have had an impact. If you are not familiar with those writings, I would not expect you to understand where I’m coming from, so there is the issue when it comes to the individual understanding of the UB.
Amazing to consider and one of the primary reasons for my eventual conclusion that no mortal mind authored this gift.
Interesting Bradly, in a sense the authors have indicated that some of the information presented in the UB, specifically Part four, came from some forms of mortal minds, but I would agree that it is “amazing to consider”, but not impossible to think, where are you familiar with the writings associated to the Mormons, where it also seems that those writings were presented in a similar manor as the UB? And having some study in those text, I have found a large similarity in the context that they contain with what is presented in the UB. So, even though the information was presented in a similar manor, the transcripts, and composition of either, is not out of the question that mortal minds could have had an impact. If you are not familiar with those writings, I would not expect you to understand where I’m coming from, so there is the issue when it comes to the individual understanding of the UB.
I’m familiar with those writings and I don’t think the Urum or thumb things were used in the 5th epochal revelation and TUB does exactly what it says – enhances understanding of even mormons.
Midi, you confuse me and I can’t figure what your point or intent is.
Trying to put something in or take something out?? My guess is the latter.
(0:0.1) IN THE MINDS of the mortals of Urantia—that being the name of your world—there exists great confusion
so there is the issue when it comes to the individual understanding of the UBwhich is why
I would not expect you to understand where I’m coming frombecause if I did, I would probably end up more confused paying attention to myself, instead of you.Bonita…your call. Certainly worthy of its own topic….a long one. Related to Agondonters in so many ways. I’m good either way. Recommended: Paper 170 The Kingdom of Heaven Jesus used five different definitions…something to ponder and understand and put into context. = )
ill vote kingdom
I think it important to focus for a time on the issue of confusion (lack of understanding) as a normal state for the evolutionary and educational progress in the Spirit of all mortals and later, mortal ascenders on the Mansion Worlds. Those who have no confusions are, by definition, entrenched in prejudice and pride….or simply too dull to notice true choices. Which is not to say that we remain confused by the same issues but education is always progressive meaning the material becomes more complex and more inter-related to other issues. The universe, we are told, is a near endless university system of higher learning where we will never know all that there is to know and everything known has been learned.
That’s why I say or agree with the saying that if you’re not confused you’re simply not paying attention. The angels and the TA keep us all engaged in challenges in learning by our choices which derive from our motives, intentions, and priorities in that choosing. We must discern the best choice possible for us in the moment and discern those repercussions/results to determine, by such experience, the even better choice next time.
As Bonita pointed out – better and more better and better-est, etc. Every choice we make has a wiser choice available which will become apparent over time making endless choices…this is how experience may lead to wisdom. Only the all-wise and all-experienced ones of Paradise are never confused. I would suggest that Michael and then Jesus were and have been perplexed and confused by which choice was the best choice in certain challenges faced by him….especially the mortal born Jesus but I think even the Creator Sons know such confusion in their own experiential acquirement of wisdom. So, one might propose that confusion itself is progressive in that it attends us throughout our education and experiential wisdom attainments.
As has been well documented already – we are driven by curiosity and the endless quest to understand – this is how we are created and endowed and motivated into a progressive life of learning. Facts and knowledge may not determine the soul’s survival or its initial birth and growth…but true progress in the ascension career will always be attended by the learning quest and application of increased knowledge of universe reality as we acquire experiential wisdom concurrent with increased knowledge and understanding. So, NO, we do not surrender our understanding…but YES, understanding is also progressive and so we must not become too attached and entrenched in the understanding we have today.
I’ve always found the inherent link between confusion and uncertainty with the experience of adventure. Adventure requires uncertain outcomes and results and some mystery as to how choice results in outcomes to progressively learn and gain experience for gaining wisdom. Wisdom, in some ways, is gained as learning by doing. Much like the skills of the musician, artist, athlete, craftsman, builder, engineer, parent, etc. Skills of every kind are earned by the repetitive exercise of living or practice. We must stand (without falling) before we walk and walk before running and running before jumping and jumping before cart wheels. Learning is doing or it is not learning much yet.
Personal religion is the same…it is far more than knowing or believing or hoping….faith is an act and expression and the more we act by faith, the more such experience will deliver wisdom and growth.
We are told we must learn to feast on uncertainty. A peculiar fact that takes some time to appreciate. We are adventurers by nature and there is no adventure without uncertainty of outcomes. Now certainly there is nothing uncertain about God or love or destiny or the friendliness of the universe….which is why adventure and uncertainty does NOT require fear or anxiety. We are to trust God and Michael and the angels and our TA implicitly with our safe keeping in all of our uncertainties and adventures on the pilgrim’s path to Paradise.
This is true for all finaliters….and especially challenging but important to us tadpoles whose destiny is Agondonter!
Those voices of doubt, despair, anxiety, and fear are to be ignored by believers….unless it can be ministered to by a voice of hope, good cheer, faith, trust, and confidence in the realities of this friendly universe. Pay NO ATTENTION to those who proclaim to be believer but whose words and attitude demonstrate a true lack of trust, hope, and faith. Those folk are choking on mind poison and are so eager to share the bitterness such a diet always brings to their mind and life. The sad and the angry and the hopeless and the desperate have nothing of any value to share with anyone. The best we can do is offer the light of hope and keep moving forward without allowing false sympathy to detour our own journey. There are plenty of people who suffer, and not by their own choices and priorities, who might indeed respond to such a light and such a life as those believers who trust, have faith, and show an abiding confidence and inner peace in their own relationship with God and their adventure in the cosmos.
102:2.1 (1119.6) Observing minds and discriminating souls know religion when they find it in the lives of their fellows. Religion requires no definition; we all know its social, intellectual, moral, and spiritual fruits. And this all grows out of the fact that religion is the property of the human race; it is not a child of culture. True, one’s perception of religion is still human and therefore subject to the bondage of ignorance, the slavery of superstition, the deceptions of sophistication, and the delusions of false philosophy.
102:2.2 (1119.7) One of the characteristic peculiarities of genuine religious assurance is that, notwithstanding the absoluteness of its affirmations and the stanchness of its attitude, the spirit of its expression is so poised and tempered that it never conveys the slightest impression of self-assertion or egoistic exaltation. The wisdom of religious experience is something of a paradox in that it is both humanly original and Adjuster derivative. Religious force is not the product of the individual’s personal prerogatives but rather the outworking of that sublime partnership of man and the everlasting source of all wisdom. Thus do the words and acts of true and undefiled religion become compellingly authoritative for all enlightened mortals.
102:2.3 (1119.8) It is difficult to identify and analyze the factors of a religious experience, but it is not difficult to observe that such religious practitioners live and carry on as if already in the presence of the Eternal. Believers react to this temporal life as if immortality already were within their grasp. In the lives of such mortals there is a valid originality and a spontaneity of expression that forever segregate them from those of their fellows who have imbibed only the wisdom of the world. Religionists seem to live in effective emancipation from harrying haste and the painful stress of the vicissitudes inherent in the temporal currents of time; they exhibit a stabilization of personality and a tranquillity of character not explained by the laws of physiology, psychology, and sociology.
102:2.4 (1120.1) Time is an invariable element in the attainment of knowledge; religion makes its endowments immediately available, albeit there is the important factor of growth in grace, definite advancement in all phases of religious experience. Knowledge is an eternal quest; always are you learning, but never are you able to arrive at the full knowledge of absolute truth. In knowledge alone there can never be absolute certainty, only increasing probability of approximation; but the religious soul of spiritual illumination knows, and knows now. And yet this profound and positive certitude does not lead such a sound-minded religionist to take any less interest in the ups and downs of the progress of human wisdom, which is bound up on its material end with the developments of slow-moving science.
Hope you are enjoying the adventure!! = )
Good idea, let’s talk a little bit about confusion and why it creates the lack of understanding.
(23:2.12) The confusion and turmoil of Urantia do not signify that the Paradise Rulers lack either interest or ability to manage affairs differently. The Creators are possessed of full power to make Urantia a veritable paradise, but such an Eden would not contribute to the development of those strong, noble, and experienced characters which the Gods are so surely forging out on your world between the anvils of necessity and the hammers of anguish. Your anxieties and sorrows, your trials and disappointments, are just as much a part of the divine plan on your sphere as are the exquisite perfection and infinite adaptation of all things to their supreme purpose on the worlds of the central and perfect universe.
Even though we might not understand it, there’s a purpose to it. Being confused.
It might even be desirable. I mean if we need to be forged, then have at it. It’s the paying attention part that’s hard.
(3:5.13) 8. Is unselfishness—the spirit of self-forgetfulness—desirable? Then must mortal man live face to face with the incessant clamoring of an inescapable self for recognition and honor. Man could not dynamically choose the divine life if there were no self-life to forsake. Man could never lay saving hold on righteousness if there were no potential evil to exalt and differentiate the good by contrast.
I really want to know. How can I be self-forgetting and pay attention at the same time?
Van Amadon wrote: How can I be self-forgetting and pay attention at the same time?You’re not really serious with that question are you? Sometimes I can’t tell.
You have to learn how to pay attention to God and other people instead of yourself. What exactly do you think self-forgetting is? Do you think it means live for the moment with spontaneous outbursts of emotion according to sudden bursts of inner impulses without any thought at all? No filters? Just feelings? That’s works if you love drama or you’re two years old. Maturity . . . what is maturity? Now that a the question.
Perhaps pay less attention to ourselves? (I first wrote ‘yourself’ but that didn’t include all of us and we all must do this).
I always tell my unhappy children, when they are unhappy, that so long as they are the most important being and the center of their universe, then happiness will remain elusive and fleeting.
Now we must still see to our material needs and the needs of those who depend upon us. We cannot be generous or very effective servants if we are not independently sufficient….meaning it is hard to serve others when we depend on others for our own needs. So, we are taught that a true believer demonstrating the fruits of the spirit is ever more capable of managing the material life too.
We are to pay attention to reality and to those choices at the intersections of time and relationship I think. We are to focus on God within and the family with-out and to learn to serve others and discover how to understand – value and meaning – with every choice and act.
I guess it all depends on what and who you are paying your attention to. Here, we pay attention to the Revelation’s teachings on reality and destiny and progress in the Spirit – knowledge, understanding, living, sharing, and caring!
= ) Another simultaneous post with Bonita!!! Hahaha!
p1460:3 132:3.10 Universe progress is characterized by increasing personality freedom because it is associated with the progressive attainment of higher and higher levels of self-understanding and consequent voluntary self-restraint. The attainment of perfection of spiritual self-restraint equals completeness of universe freedom and personal liberty. Faith fosters and maintains man’s soul in the midst of the confusion of his early orientation in such a vast universe, whereas prayer becomes the great unifier of the various inspirations of the creative imagination and the faith urges of a soul trying to identify itself with the spirit ideals of the indwelling and associated divine presence.
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