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VanAmadon wrote: The cost is a great price, which, a man sells all that he has, to posses. Which includes all the “understanding” he has too.
Another way to look at the metaphor concerning the cost of the “pearl of great price” is to relate it to the self. The phrase, “a man sells all that he has,” also means he relinquishes his own self-importance. This fits nicely into the concept of loyalty which demands trust and devotion to others within the family, not to mention God the Father himself, the patriarch of the universe family.
I’m quite certain God does not demand that a human give up “all the understanding he has too”, as Enno claims. What good would that do? I can see giving up misunderstandings, but not understandings. Isn’t understanding tied to meanings and values? How can something have meaning or value if it is not understood on some level?
God never asks us to follow him blindly like dumb animals. He asks us to follow him willingly, which means we should have some level of understanding of the meaning of what we do. We may not completely understand why, or know all the intricacies of every detail of every decision, but decisions made without understanding are not really decisions at all. They’re reflexes. Reflexes any animal is capable of.
111:4.1 Recognition is the intellectual process of fitting the sensory impressions received from the external world into the memory patterns of the individual. Understanding connotes that these recognized sensory impressions and their associated memory patterns have become integrated or organized into a dynamic network of principles.
111:4.2 Meanings are derived from a combination of recognition and understanding. Meanings are nonexistent in a wholly sensory or material world. Meanings and values are only perceived in the inner or supermaterial spheres of human experience.
112:6.4 But the meaningsandvalues of the mortal mind have not perished. Certain phases of mind are continued in the surviving soul; certain experiential values of the former human mind are held by the Adjuster; and there persist in the local universe the records of the human life as it was lived in the flesh, together with certain living registrations in the numerous beings who are concerned with the final evaluation of the ascending mortal, beings extending in range from seraphim to Universal Censors and probably on beyond to the Supreme.
It’s clear from the above quotes that recognition and understanding of meanings and values are an important form of soul work, so important that it survives death. Why would God ask us to give this up? Why would he send the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of Truth and the Thought Adjuster to the soul to help with understanding meanings and values if he thinks understanding is worthless in the total scheme of things? Why did God establish such an elaborate education ascension system if understanding was not part of the plan? It doesn’t add up in this mind, that’s for sure.
Perhaps Enno means that what we strive for is something that is beyond understanding with the animal level brain. But understanding it is nonetheless. It’s a higher form of understanding which involves faith, trust and loyalty, it involves personal religious experience with one’s inner Teachers. What else are they there for? To spoon feed us, to give us comfort, to soothe our wounded pride, to carry us off to a safe-space for our delicate egos? I DONTHINKSOOOO!
Another concept he tried to help apostles with
i was reading-just after their ordination the subject of “shalt not” came up and the first example was Moses thou shalt not kill.
It interested me because the eye of the spirit or a more spiritual interpretation should realize our maker is more interested in our motive as opposed to our actions. When you think about God seeing inside of us it is more of a game changer than any literal interpretation.
Beyond this: it also makes me curious about the limit of things that we can actualize and what sort of things reside in the absolutes? It must all be of a spiritual nature but Take evil for example just because it is the motive discussed th the shall not kill thought – being revenge and hatred.
We harbor bad motives and risk judgement without actualizing anything and Jesus second example was adultry – same scenario. I take it that this could be interpreted as potential evil, not residing in any absolute, it’s our invention/creation, if you can call it that?? Where is the potential hiding, in our material minds?
am I getting off track?
I’m wondering if anyone here really believes that you must sell everything you have in order to remain in the Father’s kingdom and progress spiritually? I doubt anyone would take that literally, but even metaphorically it has different levels of meaning. I personally perceive this to mean that God demands total loyalty. Anything that prevents total loyalty must be forfeited, but those things are not just material items, they can be attitudes and ideas as well.
The reference in which the selling of everything that was made comes from “Matthew Chapter 19:21”:
20 The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet?
21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.
22 But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions.
23 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven.
Yet there are other references to this saying, where since Jesus’ group held everything in common, those who joined the groups as Disciples and Apostles, where expected to sell all and give it to the poor, and then once in the group, there were no individual aspects of wealth between its members.
Nevertheless, the cost mentioned, was not this specific arrangement, but the cost of being in the Kingdom, different than the wealth one had.
So, no, I doubt that it would be literally applied to today’s scenario but, there are various religious orders which still make it a requirement, in order to be considered a brother or sister of these various orders. However, I do believe that one must be willing to give up all for their brothers and sisters in need, although in today’s social structure, depending on where one lives, it would be easier to do in a group or co-operative which could be formed the same way as the group in Jesus’ time.
I doubt that it means “that God demands total loyalty”? Since when does God demand anything, that’s why we have been given free-will. Besides, since God is spirit, and His existence, is based on various understanding from the written word, presented by men, even the words presented as from Jesus, must be weighed through their means as received by individual hearts and minds, based on their own religious experiences. So, how does one show “loyalty” to God if not through their actions towards their fellow brothers and sisters.
Also, before one can know truth, one must know thy self first. For by the grace of God go we all. And, in order to be greatest in God’s eyes, must we be willing to be least among all others.
Gene wrote: We harbor bad motives and risk judgement without actualizing anything and Jesus second example was adultry – same scenario. I take it that this could be interpreted as potential evil, not residing in any absolute, it’s our invention/creation, if you can call it that?? Where is the potential hiding, in our material minds? am I getting off track?Hey Gene, I’m not sure what you mean by absolute. Actually, I’m not sure what you’re referring to at all, but that has never stopped me from opining . . . hah! Are you saying that having an evil thought is the same as doing an evil action? I don’t think they’re the same, although one can certainly lead to the other, so there is danger in “harboring”. A fleeting evil thought as part of a mental exercise followed by a decision to abandon it is more like problem solving to me. If I take the evil thought and harbor it, or dwell on it and make plans around it . . . well that’s a bad thing. I think the midwayers explained that whole process in the mind of Judas as an example of how evil thinking can lead to evil doing. Jesus had hoped to help turn that around for him, but it didn’t work out. Evil is always only potential until someone makes a free-will decision to actuate it.
Where does it hide? It’s part of imperfection. It’s part of time and space prior to the appearance of the Supreme. Anything less than perfect is potentially evil. But evil is not sin. We choose evil a lot without fully realizing it. We eventually realize it because it doesn’t fit in with reality very well, it causes confusion, chaos and unhappiness if you keep trying to force an evil thing into reality. That’s called a mistake which can be corrected.
Correcting a mistake is part of our education, evolution and growth. It’s the beginning of wisdom. All we have to do is atone, get back in line with reality and God forgives our immature choosing. Think about it. Kids do stupid things that cause problems all the time. They don’t know enough sometimes to make wise decisions, but they learn. Parents correct them and forgive them. It’s okay. It’s not until you know something is wrong, or evil, then do it anyway that it becomes sin.
Concerning the “shalt not” thing. It’s like, you’ve been told, it’s been explained to you and you still choose to go the wrong way . . . that’s bad. It’s an attempt at educating someone. But in reality, people have to choose for themselves. They are free to go against the “shalt not” and many do. Sometimes that’s evil, sometimes it’s sin depending on the level of understanding. But even sin can be turned around, you can choose to go against reality until you become so miserable and unhappy with yourself you desire to change, then there are still mercy credits to heal that situation too, if it’s sincere.
But think about it. We cannot choose right from wrong unless we are capable of entertaining the wrong in our heads and play out the consequences before we act. It’s not that we blindly follow the rules of our divine parent who said “thou shalt not”, we have to understand it too, otherwise we’re doing God’s will out of fear of punishment rather than love. Love requires some kind of understanding of the one loved, it’s relational, a back and forth kind of thing, a constant changing and growing. There’s a sequence to that kind of growth. It may start out as fear, but it eventually is supposed to progress to reverence and then love. The goal for fusion with the Adjuster is to eventually have no room in your mind for even potential evil (see quote 132:3.8 below). There is only love in the mind, love of God (Adjuster), and this love inhibits the emergence of evil potentials in the mind.
149:6.6 The father naturally loves his child, but the child must develop his love for the father from the fear of what the father can do, through awe, dread, dependence, and reverence, to the appreciative and affectionate regard of love.
Here are some quotes that mention evil as potential in relation to imperfection, or distance from divinity. Quote 130:4.14 does a better job of explaining what I tried to say above:
54:01 Potential evil is time-existent in a universe embracing differential levels of perfection meanings and values.
3:6.2 The will of God is divine truth, living love; therefore are the perfecting creations of the evolutionary universes characterized by goodness – nearness to divinity; by potential evil – remoteness from divinity.
105:6.4 But to attain perfection as an evolutionary (time-creative) experience implies something other-than-perfection as a point of departure. Thus arises imperfection in the evolutionary creations. And this is the origin of potential evil. Misadaptation, disharmony, and conflict, all these things are inherent in evolutionary growth, from physical universes to personal creatures.
111:6.2 On material levels man finds himself subservient to nature, while on spiritual levels he is triumphant over nature and over all things temporal and finite. Such a paradox is inseparable from temptation, potential evil, decisional errors, and when self becomes proud and arrogant, sin may evolve.
130:4.14 Potential evil is inherent in the necessary incompleteness of the revelation of God as a time-space-limited expression of infinity and eternity. The fact of the partial in the presence of the complete constitutes relativity of reality, creates necessity for intellectual choosing, and establishes value levels of spirit recognition and response. The incomplete and finite concept of the Infinite which is held by the temporal and limited creature mind is, in and of itself, potential evil. But the augmenting error of unjustified deficiency in reasonable spiritual rectification of these originally inherent intellectual disharmonies and spiritual insufficiencies, is equivalent to the realization of actual evil.
132:2.10 The possibility of evil is necessary to moral choosing, but not the actuality thereof. A shadow is only relatively real. Actual evil is not necessary as a personal experience. Potential evil acts equally well as a decision stimulus in the realms of moral progress on the lower levels of spiritual development. Evil becomes a reality of personal experience only when a moral mind makes evil its choice.
132:3.8 With the attainment of finality of choice for goodness and of completed capacity for truth appreciation, there comes into existence a perfection of beauty and holiness whose righteousness eternally inhibits the possibility of the emergence of even the concept of potential evil. Such a God-knowing soul casts no shadow of doubting evil when functioning on such a high spirit level of divine goodness.
140.4.7 Moral worth cannot be derived from mere repression — obeying the injunction “Thou shalt not.”
And then this idea is taken a step farther:
140:6.4 Then said Simon Peter: “Master, if you have a new commandment, we would hear it. Reveal the new way to us.” Jesus answered Peter: “You have heard it said by those who teach the law: ‘You shall not kill; that whosoever kills shall be subject to judgment.’ But I look beyond the act to uncover the motive. I declare to you that every one who is angry with his brother is in danger of condemnation. He who nurses hatred in his heart and plans vengeance in his mind stands in danger of judgment. You must judge your fellows by their deeds; the Father in heaven judges by the intent.
It is these quotes especially whats highlighted that got me thinking about actualizing. We talked much about actualizing spirit realities.
This makes me think about the potential of evil and actualized evil which must be sin, no? We actualize evil by making a decision to act on our intentions to do evil which constitutes sin.
But the above quote states that sin does not need to happen in order to be subjected to divine judgement. It is our motives alone.
And the last part says that people or social/political organizations must judge our fellows by their deeds but the Father judges by intent.
Two very different interpretations of Thou Shalt Not Kill. One social and one spiritual. Social judgement based on the actualized evil, killing, sin. And the other based on pure intent, nothing at all actualized.
Quite different that actualized spirit. Actualizing spirit realities one must do something, not just have the motive to do something.
So if I were Simon who started this and heard Jesus words, my mental attitude would change because now I would realize that the master is looking inside my head and cares more about what my motives are more than what I actually do. Dont you think this is more of a game changer than the less informative written on stone words “thou shalt not kill” ?? Spiritual interpretations vs social/political interpretations is what I am thinking about as well. Which do you think is more motivating in regard to the thou shalt nots?
anyway, sorry if I could not get my thoughts into words more clearly in earlier post.
Gene wrote: This makes me think about the potential of evil and actualized evil which must be sin, no? We actualize evil by making a decision to act on our intentions to do evil which constitutes sin.I don’t think actualized evil is always sin. Sin is defined as deliberate disloyalty to Deity. You can’t be deliberately disloyal if you don’t realize what you’re doing is disloyal. The fact is, almost everything we do is evil because almost everything we do is imperfect. Same goes with our thoughts. It’s rare to get a perfect thought, one perfectly aligned with the Adjuster. In reality it’s not a black or white situation either. There are many shades of gray concerning evil. Progressing through the psychic circles is metaphorically a way of eliminating all the gray.
Gene wrote: Two very different interpretations of Thou Shalt Not Kill. One social and one spiritual. Social judgement based on the actualized evil, killing, sin. And the other based on pure intent, nothing at all actualized.Yes, but this does not mean that you can get to heaven on pure intent alone, as you say. There have to be actions. We have to leave a trail of actualized potentials in our wake which contribute to soul growth and gravitate to the Supreme. Otherwise we’re not changing, and if we’re not changing, we’re dead. (See quote 112:0.15) I don’t think intentions alone really change a person, otherwise we could all just sit under the Bodhi tree staring at our navels, becoming floating Buddhas filled with good thoughts and nothing else . . . hot air. Poof!
Gene wrote: Dont you think this is more of a game changer than the less informative written on stone words “thou shalt not kill”??Oh for sure! That’s what scares people though. A personal relationship with God is a naked relationship. No secrets anywhere at anytime. Sharing means sharing everything. Sharing is Godlike. That’s why they say doing the will of God is nothing more than sharing the inner life with him. But it’s not like sharing a beer. It’s exposed, vulnerable, intimate and very, very personal. It takes a lot of courage to do that. And some effort as well. You have to be willing to come as a child. No preconditions. Total trust. That’s why agondonters are so special. They do all this in the darkest of darkness. It takes a lot of cojones, not to mention undivided loyalty. You have to be willing to see yourself as you really are . . . how many are really willing to do that? . . . and also willing to see God as he really is. Thank God we have the Spirit of Truth, who is Michael/Jesus. At least he is less scary because we know more about him than God the Father.The “thou shalt not” thing worked well for primitives. But we have come a long way from being primitives. (At least some have.) We should be progressing in our family awareness. As the quote goes in my last post, we begin with fear of what God will do to us if we don’t obey the “shalt nots”, but then we grow and start to become dependent on his goodness, we begin to revere it. Eventually we want to be more like him and begin to appreciate what he does, which triggers the “giving back” feeling. Then there is real affection and love that grows out of that give and take. Eventually, the need for “shalt nots” disappear as they would with any maturing individual.149:6.3 “The ‘fear of the Lord’ has had different meanings in the successive ages, coming up from fear, through anguish and dread, to awe and reverence. And now from reverence I would lead you up, through recognition, realization, and appreciation, to love. When man recognizes only the works of God, he is led to fear the Supreme; but when man begins to understand and experience the personality and character of the living God, he is led increasingly to love such a good and perfect, universal and eternal Father. And it is just this changing of the relation of man to God that constitutes the mission of the Son of Man on earth.Gene wrote: Spiritual interpretations vs social/political interpretations is what I am thinking about as well. Which do you think is more motivating in regard to the thou shalt nots?The spiritual should always dominate everything else. But reality has elliptical symmetry which means that priorities change by the nanosecond. It’s always evolving, changing and growing. But it starts with spiritual growth. Social growth is dependent upon spiritual growth if it’s to be worthwhile at all. I have quotes for that somewhere. Kinda busy right now though. If you want them let me know.In reality it’s not a black or white situation either. There are many shades of gray concerning evil. Progressing through the psychic circles is metaphorically a way of eliminating all the gray.
Progressing spiritually actually, never eliminates anything metaphorically.
The only way to immediately identify what’s been shaded gray, and instantly separate it into what’s actually black and white without being confused, is by paying the cost of remaining in the progressive ascent of the kingdom, the pearl of great price, in order to possess which a man sells all that he has.
p1118:4 102:1.1 The work of the Thought Adjuster constitutes the explanation of the translation of man’s primitive and evolutionary sense of duty into that higher and more certain faith in the eternal realities of revelation. There must be perfection hunger in man’s heart to insure capacity for comprehending the faith paths to supreme attainment. If any man chooses to do the divine will, he shall know the way of truth. It is literally true, “Human things must be known in order to be loved, but divine things must be loved in order to be known.” But honest doubts and sincere questionings are not sin; such attitudes merely spell delay in the progressive journey toward perfection attainment. Childlike trust secures man’s entrance into the kingdom of heavenly ascent, but progress is wholly dependent on the vigorous exercise of the robust and confident faith of the full-grown man.
What do you suppose the faith of the full-grown man is all about? I was saying before that it takes cojones to be willing to share the inner life with God, which is the same as doing God’s will.
p1221:2 111:5.1 The doing of the will of God is nothing more or less than an exhibition of creature willingness to share the inner life with God–with the very God who has made such a creature life of inner meaning-value possible. Sharing is Godlike–divine. God shares all with the Eternal Son and the Infinite Spirit, while they, in turn, share all things with the divine Sons and spirit Daughters of the universes.
Note the above quote does not say anything about black or white decisions, just a willingness to share. To me that means openness to change, a committed attitude of the importance of “otherness”, and a total lack of defensiveness. That’s what makes it the peace that passes all understanding. If you’re not fighting, if you’re not stressed out constantly over black and white decisions, if you’re willing to be led and to evolve (which means gradually learn to “see”), then it’s a happy experience all and all. There will always be some bumps in the road, real challenges that muddle the mind; but looking back, it’s usually a stimulus to strive for higher thinking, finding better ways of doing things. It’s all good . . . there are many shades of gray, lots of change, plenty of opportunities to “see” things from many angles and learn, plenty of options and possibilities for maturation. It’s never cut and dry; there’s good, gooder, goodest, best, bester, bestest and most bestest. There’s far too much to learn, too many perspectives to “see”, too many new ideas to apply to old situations . . . it really, really is all good.
Then if your perspective is to only “see” what is all good, are you simply ignoring the perspective you don’t want to “see”?
The faith of a full grown man:
first I’ll say it doesn’t have anything to do with gender or size – TUB does not need such disclaimers.
i think the meaning can be derived from the quote it’s contained in.
what does it take to have a primitive and evolutionary sense of duty? Or perfection hunger? Or choosing the Divine will or love a divine thing? Or to honestly sort through sincere doubts and maintain faith? Or to have a childlike trust?
Certainly a degree of maturity and sincerity and curiousity and hunger for righteousness and honesty. A childlike trust is not a naive trust.
“. . . but progress is wholly dependent on the vigorous exercise of the robust and confident faith of the full-grown man.“
196:0.3 [Part IV]Jesus did not cling to faith in God as would a struggling soul at war with the universe and at death grips with a hostile and sinful world; he did not resort to faith merely as a consolation in the midst of difficulties or as a comfort in threatened despair; faith was not just an illusory compensation for the unpleasant realities and the sorrows of living. In the very face of all the natural difficulties and the temporal contradictions of mortal existence, he experienced the tranquillity of supreme and unquestioned trust in God and felt the tremendous thrill of living, by faith, in the very presence of the heavenly Father. And this triumphant faith was a living experience of actual spirit attainment. Jesus’ great contribution to the values of human experience was not that he revealed so many new ideas about the Father in heaven, but rather that he so magnificently and humanly demonstrated a new and higher type of living faith in God. Never on all the worlds of this universe, in the life of any one mortal, did God ever become such a living reality as in the human experience of Jesus of Nazareth.“. . . but progress is wholly dependent on the vigorous exercise of the robust and confident faith of the full-grown man.”
196:0.14 [Part IV]Jesus’ earthly life was devoted to one great purpose — doing the Father’s will, living the human life religiously and by faith. The faith of Jesus was trusting, like that of a child, but it was wholly free from presumption. He made robust and manly decisions, courageously faced manifold disappointments, resolutely surmounted extraordinary difficulties, and unflinchingly confronted the stern requirements of duty. It required a strong will and an unfailing confidence to believe what Jesus believed and as he believed.And regarding reality and being full grown, while retaining the trusting attitude of a child, having been grown up is proven when the things that aren’t good, are “seen”.
“. . . but progress is wholly dependent on the vigorous exercise of the robust and confident faith of the full-grown man.”
127:6.12 [Part IV]Jesus is rapidly becoming a man, not just a young man but an adult. He has learned well to bear responsibility. He knows how to carry on in the face of disappointment. He bears up bravely when his plans are thwarted and his purposes temporarily defeated. He has learned how to be fair and just even in the face of injustice. He is learning how to adjust his ideals of spiritual living to the practical demands of earthly existence. He is learning how to plan for the achievement of a higher and distant goal of idealism while he toils earnestly for the attainment of a nearer and immediate goal of necessity. He is steadily acquiring the art of adjusting his aspirations to the commonplace demands of the human occasion. He has very nearly mastered the technique of utilizing the energy of the spiritual drive to turn the mechanism of material achievement. He is slowly learning how to live the heavenly life while he continues on with the earthly existence. More and more he depends upon the ultimate guidance of his heavenly Father while he assumes the fatherly role of guiding and directing the children of his earth family. He is becoming experienced in the skillful wresting of victory from the very jaws of defeat; he is learning how to transform the difficulties of time into the triumphs of eternity.We are taught by TUB that we are to seek out and focus our attention on Truth, Beauty, and Goodness. All the rest can be cast aside. Sure, we can “see” those things that ‘aren’t good’ but they don’t contribute to soul growth. We should reach for better things.
3:5.11 (51.10) 6. Is idealism — the approaching concept of the divine — desirable? Then must man struggle in an environment of relative goodness and beauty, surroundings stimulative of the irrepressible reach for better things.
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