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So perhaps the group designation of agondonter disappears on Havona because, while there, we are alone, without class or group affiliation.
Hey! You’re on to something there. I like it.
Bradly,
If you’re feeling agony because of me, I will do my best to limit it. I have been blessed with many things.
When the book found me, it helped me to see quite clearly, that no matter what, there’s nothing to worry about. But I’m one of those who has a hard time seeing the agony others are experiencing, and there are plenty of them.
I see us, the readers of this mind boggling book, as having an advantage in avoiding agonizing experiences. Because I am able to sympathize with others, I want to do what I see is an obligation to make the world less agonizing for as many as possible. So I study the book to find out how. And keep pushing the envelope of adjusting any wrongly held onto preconceptions of what I think, it says.
Please understand, I’m frustrated when I’m not able to convey that to you and the others on these forums. We have something special. We are blessed. I’m determined to . . .
Got to go.
A Google search on “agondonters” yields this pdf document, that seems to be sourced to Chris Halvorson (please forgive me if I am referencing a sketchy or unapproved source, here, but I think what I pull from it is harmless enough, in any case). Eymology of coined words used in the Urantia Papers Agondonters etymology is shown as:
Agondonter:(Latin) agon, a struggle; (Latin) donator, one who gives (one whogives a struggle?) When a specific denotation is wanted in connection with asystematically used root or phoneme, the requisite word or sufficient part thereof issimply stuck into the phoneme: “Divinington,” “Ascendington,” “abandonters,”“supernaphim,” “Chronoldeks,” “agondonters.”Isn’t that interesting? One who gives struggle. Perhaps even, one who voluntarily struggles [to create a relationship with an unseen being, God].Keryn: I’ve attempted to validate the above definition of “Agondonter” as might be rooted in Latin and I have not found the same corroboration as was found above.In the “Latin Dictionary and Grammar Aid” from “Notre Dame” University, the following turns up for the “Stem” values used in the word “Agondonter”.“AGO =
ago agere egi actum [2 of 2] ‘agere (iure , or lege)’, [to go to law]; ‘agere causam’, [to plead a cause]. Pres. partic. agens -entis, as adj. [effective].
ago agere egi actum [to set in motion , drive]; of animals, [to drive or hunt]. ‘se agere’, [to go]; ‘animam’ [to give up the ghost]; ‘radices’, [to strike root]. Transf., [to incite] to action; [to deal with, be engaged upon; to treat of] a subject;’hoc agere’, [to attend to the matter at hand]; pass., [to be concerned, be at stake]; ‘actum est de’, [it is settled about], so [it is all over with]; ‘bene agere cum homine’, [to treat a person well]; ‘grates, gratias’, [to express thanks]; ‘pacem’, [to keep the peace]; of time, [to spend]; so absol., [to spend time, live]; on the stage, [to act, play]; ‘primas partes’,[to play the leading part]; legal and polit., [to take a matter up publicly]; [CONTINUED]
agon -onis m. [a contest in the public games].
agonalia -ium and -orum n. [a festival of Janus].DON =
donarium -i n. (1) [a temple , shrine, altar]. (2) [a votive offering].
donatio -onis f. [giving , donation].
donativum -i n. [an imperial largess].
donec (older donicum) (1) [up to the time when, until]. (2) [so long as, while].
dono -are (1) ‘rem homini’ , [to give as a present, to present, grant, bestow, give up]; esp. [to remit a debt or obligation; to forgive, pardon]. (2) ‘hominem re’, [to present with].
donum -i n. [a gift, present]; ‘dono dare’, [to give as a present]; esp. [a votive offering].TER =[three times , thrice].”Therefore I would question the definition presented and would also request validation of its source material?However, the definition is presented in the UB as someone who can believe without seeing, which is a reference to another place in the UB which is as follows:(2043.2) 191:5.4 When the Master had so spoken, he looked down into the face of Thomas and said: “And you, Thomas, who said you would not believe unless you could see me and put your finger in the nail marks of my hands, have now beheld me and heard my words; and though you see no nail marks on my hands, since I am raised in the form that you also shall have when you depart from this world, what will you say to your brethren? You will acknowledge the truth, for already in your heart you had begun to believe even when you so stoutly asserted your unbelief. Your doubts, Thomas, always most stubbornly assert themselves just as they are about to crumble. Thomas, I bid you be not faithless but believing — and I know you will believe, even with a whole heart.”(2043.3) 191:5.5 When Thomas heard these words, he fell on his knees before the morontia Master and exclaimed, “I believe! My Lord and my Master!” Then said Jesus to Thomas: “You have believed, Thomas, because you have really seen and heard me. Blessed are those in the ages to come who will believe even though they have not seen with the eye of flesh nor heard with the mortal ear.”
Also, it is an indirect reference to “John 20:29” where its meaning is paraphrased as in the following:
27 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.
28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.
29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.
Yet when one searches the KJV for the text “and yet have believed”, the closest associated reference is found in “Matthew 22:32”, which refers to those, in a parable, specifically those “publicans and the harlots believed him” yet when those who actually “had seen it, repented not afterward, that ye might believe him.”
31 Whether of them twain did the will of his father? They say unto him, The first. Jesus saith unto them, Verily I say unto you, That the publicans and the harlots go into the kingdom of God before you.
32 For John came unto you in the way of righteousness, and ye believed him not: but the publicans and the harlots believed him: and ye, when ye had seen it,, repented not afterward, that ye might believe him.
The latter is only an association in that an “Agondonter”, a word probably made up and has no real meaning other than what the UB defined it as, and that they may be those who have moved into the “kingdom of God” before us, who had not seen the same things that the others had who actually saw and did not repent of the things which, in this case John the Baptist presented to his followers who only believed from the words that John spoke, and never needed to see the Master in order to believe, therefore, believed because they understood what others presented to them as being truth about the kingdom of God.
Bradly wrote: A curious state of mind for a believer and student of the FER. You exasperate me.I’ll ditto that.
Keryn wrote: “Agony”, “nothing special”, “being nice isn’t kind”, “if you were invaded in your home at night” = optimistic? Confounding, indeed!I’ll ditto that too.
It’s a group thing now. We all agree. It’s time for an intervention. Enno/Rip/VanAmadon/nodAmanaV, many of us have asked you individually to stop your persistent needling, negative and sometimes nasty posting. Now a group is asking. Would you please try harder to be a team player?
159:1.3 If your brother sins against you, go to him and with tact and patience show him his fault. And do all this between you and him alone. If he will listen to you, then have you won your brother. But if your brother will not hear you, if he persists in the error of his way, go again to him, taking with you one or two mutual friends that you may thus have two or even three witnesses to confirm your testimony and establish the fact that you have dealt justly and mercifully with your offending brother. Now if he refuses to hear your brethren, you may tell the whole story to the congregation, and then, if he refuses to hear the brotherhood, let them take such action as they deem wise; let such an unruly member become an outcast from the kingdom.
The argumentative defense of any proposition is inversely proportional to the truth contained. 48:7.30
George – wondering whose and which “proposition” you think this might apply to?
And by the way, thanks for all your insightful posts and the very evocative questions you present to the community.
Bradly
Bradly, If you’re feeling agony because of me, I will do my best to limit it. I have been blessed with many things. When the book found me, it helped me to see quite clearly, that no matter what, there’s nothing to worry about. But I’m one of those who has a hard time seeing the agony others are experiencing, and there are plenty of them. I see us, the readers of this mind boggling book, as having an advantage in avoiding agonizing experiences. Because I am able to sympathize with others, I want to do what I see is an obligation to make the world less agonizing for as many as possible. So I study the book to find out how. And keep pushing the envelope of adjusting any wrongly held onto preconceptions of what I think, it says. Please understand, I’m frustrated when I’m not able to convey that to you and the others on these forums. We have something special. We are blessed. I’m determined to . . . Got to go.
Thanks VanA…so glad to read this. It is a hard road for the empathetic souls on our world….and yet, we must remember that so much suffering is first hand, meaning its a result of personal choices, motives, intentions, priorities that are self centered and unresponsive to the Spirit. Also, our time of suffering on this world is brief and far better realities are soon at hand. Peace.
Bradly wrote: I was really forming some new perspectives on this issue when you were presenting the role of personality in faith and love….Yeah, I just touched on that before the discussion got derailed. I’m not sure what direction to go with that, but we know that personality is a divine pattern or design with innate properties, one of which is its own sense of morality. I think that has to do with the fact that personalities don’t tolerate isolation very well (112:1.16). In fact personality isolation is the road to annihilation (2:3.4). So, where there is a functioning personality there is ideally a relationship with at least one other personality, human and/or divine. If personality originates from Paradise, then it must naturally pattern its relations in harmony with its origin unless something gets in the way, don’t you think?16:9.7 Unselfishness, aside from parental instinct, is not altogether natural; other persons are not naturally loved or socially served. It requires the enlightenment of reason, morality, and the urge of religion, God-knowingness, to generate an unselfish and altruistic social order. Man’s own personality awareness, self-consciousness, is also directly dependent on this very fact of innate other-awareness, this innate ability to recognize and grasp the reality of other personality, ranging from the human to the divine.
We’re told: “Cosmic socialization constitutes the highest form of personality unification. (56:10.14)” Which I interpret to mean that personality is naturally driven towards this goal, if not inhibited.We’re also told that children are naturally gregarious and trustful, which is why Jesus said so many times to pray like children and to be careful not to instill mistrust in them. Some of this has to do with the social urge of the fifth adjutant, but I also think that some of it has to do with the natural properties of personality.140:5.14 It is easy to teach this admonition even to a child. Children are naturally trustful, and parents should see to it that they do not lose that simple faith. In dealing with children, avoid all deception and refrain from suggesting suspicion.36:5.10 5. The spirit of counsel – the social urge, the endowment of species co-operation; the ability of will creatures to harmonize with their fellows; the origin of the gregarious instinct among the more lowly creatures.
Note below that the first promptings of a child’s moral nature is justice, fairness, kindness and helpfulness to others. I’m reading this to mean that children, even before the arrival of an Adjuster, possess a morally driven character. The second quote explains that a child’s nature is naturally positive and that negativity is a learned behavior. And it is this naturally positive development of the moral nature that permits the arrival of the Adjuster. The moral nature precedes entry into the seventh circle by the personality and the onset of Adjuster indwelling.103:2.3 The evolutionary soil in the mind of man in which the seed of revealed religion germinates is the moral nature that so early gives origin to a social consciousness. The first promptings of a child’s moral nature have not to do with sex, guilt, or personal pride, but rather with impulses of justice, fairness, and urges to kindness – helpful ministry to one’s fellows. And when such early moral awakenings are nurtured, there occurs a gradual development of the religious life which is comparatively free from conflicts, upheavals, and crises.103:2.5 The psychology of a child is naturally positive, not negative. So many mortals are negative because they were so trained. When it is said that the child is positive, reference is made to his moral impulses, those powers of mind whose emergence signals the arrival of the Thought Adjuster.My guess is that mind, the go-between for our dual natures, can be influenced to derail the natural pattern of personality which is trusting, social, positive, kind, fair and helpful to others. Mind ministry is naturally positive, moving us forward in growth and progress. But I think minds can unfortunately become twisted. How often do we see this? Way, way too often. And it is sad to see it happen, even here on this forum. I also think that minds can become so indoctrinated in negativity that changing them in this lifetime might not be possible without an act of God. But that is just my personal opinion, not something I read in TUB.Regarding agondonters, one thing that fascinates me in the book is this statement about teamwork:
28:5.14 These are the angels who foster and promote the teamwork of all Orvonton. One of the most important lessons to be learned during your mortal career is teamwork. The spheres of perfection are manned by those who have mastered this art of working with other beings. Few are the duties in the universe for the lone servant. The higher you ascend, the more lonely you become when temporarily without the association of your fellows.
As agondonters individuals are in a functional group.
50:7.2 [. . .] This functional grouping of the agondonters persists throughout the ascension of the local universe and the traversal of the superuniverse; it disappears during the sojourn in Havona . . . .
Could it be that agondonter groups ascending through the superuniverse function as teams to master the mandated universe duties and assignments? If so, and based merely on my mortal experience, the pressure to do the right thing on these assignments within the functional group would be strong. For example everyone would need to lift at the same time all at once to move something, and everyone would be required to demonstrate the load-pulling spirit (81:6.37 ) I would think.
I’m thinking about coordinated and integrated functional groupings of individuals, who, as individuals are progressing through their ascension career, but who are part of a system and in systems, parts are arranged.
112:1.19 In aggregations parts are added; in systems parts are arranged. Systems are significant because of organization — positional values. In a good system all factors are in cosmic position. In a bad system something is either missing or displaced — deranged. In the human system it is the personality which unifies all activities and in turn imparts the qualities of identity and creativity.
I wonder if Mortal Corps of Finality might also be system where all factors are in cosmic position, as a functional group.
Regarding agondonters, one thing that fascinates me in the book is this statement about teamwork:
28:5.14 These are the angels who foster and promote the teamwork of all Orvonton. One of the most important lessons to be learned during your mortal career is teamwork. The spheres of perfection are manned by those who have mastered this art of working with other beings. Few are the duties in the universe for the lone servant. The higher you ascend, the more lonely you become when temporarily without the association of your fellows.
As agondonters individuals are in a functional group.
50:7.2 [. . .] This functional grouping of the agondonters persists throughout the ascension of the local universe and the traversal of the superuniverse; it disappears during the sojourn in Havona . . . .
Could it be that agondonter groups ascending through the superuniverse function as teams to master the mandated universe duties and assignments? If so, and based merely on my mortal experience, the pressure to do the right thing on these assignments within the functional group would be strong. For example everyone would need to lift at the same time all at once to move something, and everyone would be required to demonstrate the load-pulling spirit (81:6.37 ) I would think. I’m thinking about coordinated and integrated functional groupings of individuals, who, as individuals are progressing through their ascension career, but who are part of a system and in systems, parts are arranged.
112:1.19 In aggregations parts are added; in systems parts are arranged. Systems are significant because of organization — positional values. In a good system all factors are in cosmic position. In a bad system something is either missing or displaced — deranged. In the human system it is the personality which unifies all activities and in turn imparts the qualities of identity and creativity.
I wonder if Mortal Corps of Finality might also be system where all factors are in cosmic position, as a functional group.
my imagination says that Agondonters have something that many others do not have and as ascenders, an alternate idea could be to parse them out so they can share with others. Like when many are needed to lift a heavy load together there is always the need for one individual to say “lay hold – heave”
Thanks Bonita!! I especially appreciate the point of the mind being the “go-between for our dual natures” – a kind of arbiter, sorter, integrator, and harmonizer of the very real material world experienced outside the mind and the spirit nature that resides within the mind itself (?).
I think this particular issue terribly important to our consideration of Agondonters….and the mortal ascension plan in general. Children and primitive/pagan peoples’ spiritualization hold critical elements of the “natural order” for all mortal born people with survival, ascension, and fusion potential IMO. I think if we can begin to understand the “normal” mind of children and primitives and how the dual nature and the personality work to create a response to the spirit-ministers, then we might be better able to understand how the TA supercharges this capacity and then we might better understand the influence of the Spirit of Truth. Each element – adjutants, Holy Spirit, personality, TA, and Son’s Spirit deliver specific functionality and upliftment leverage/power to the mind. And then comes the soul’s mid-mind and self awareness and the higher integrations of truth, beauty, goodness, and love.
In all of this, is the mind’s ability to hear and respond to the manifold spirit ministries, to identify with our duality, and to choose the transfer of the seat our personal identity from the material to the spiritual. And by this study I think we can also begin to better understand and appreciate the dysfunctional effects of the mind poisons upon this spiritualization process. When I consider the text you provided on children, it becomes clearer to me how subjecting children to injustice, unfairness, meanness, etc. can cause the mind to turn away from its natural and normal proclivities – trust becomes destroyed. It’s also more apparent to me how important the family is to each mortal and to the collective society/culture – the family we are born into either reinforces the normal urges of a spiritual nature or they can diminish, confuse, and even destroy them.
Now while the material family might fail us, it appears to me that the force of the mind ministries never pulls back or relents, but actually may increase its power of influence so that, ultimately, no one may excuse their materialisms or blame others for failing to respond to the Spirit…it/they is/are relentless in the pursuit of contact and influence. This does remind of the text, posted prior, about the mill stone warning from the Master….the destruction of faith in another is a terrible evil/sin. The “faith” is really that internal urge to believe in that which is greater and the reality that is within….no matter its name or the understanding of its source and potential.
Which is why I am delighted to consider children and primitives! I can think of no primitive peoples without a form of paganism or many such forms. Natural and material phenomena are celebrated or blamed by association with some form of deity attachment and expression. The most primitive of peoples assign material reality to non-material forces and beings. This is not reason and logic or the 5 senses at work….this is something far more profound and complex and demonstrates the fundamental wiring and circuitry for every mortal mind….since Andon and Fonta.
Perhaps it is just my own slowness at identifying these different elements of influence within me/us, but I think it helps to consider each element of spiritualization and try to understand how this works in the mortal mind even without the TA and Son’s Spirit, the better to then understand the power and force of those upon our basic and natural spiritual forces as super-charging the basic engine of transformation…because every normal minded mortal born being can make circle progress no matter their circumstances, knowledge, ignorance, primitivism, paganisms, wisdom, experience, etc.
Not that all of this is not complicated enough, but we will also need to think about how Cosmic Mind and the Supreme also bring influence for our spiritualization. And then there’s the angels……..
I had believed for quite some time that the repercussions of immature/unwise choices were the source and root of disappointment and failure and suffering. Now I know that the TAs and the angels have an important assignment which does not include material comfort and ease. Indeed, one might propose that material comforts and ease might only deliver material attachments which can make the influences of spirit on mind to be muted or ignored or overwhelmed by the pleasures and distractions and escapes of materialism. We are taught that our confusions, uncertainties, disappointments, and failures are each and all an opportunity for learning, experiencing, incorporating, and uplifting the accumulation and integration of wisdom….finding meaning and value in every choice and result.
Enough for now….thanks again everyone! = )
So: Knowing what constitutes an Agondonter, a bit about their destiny and relative scarcity, how does it impact your interaction with life’s vicissitudes?
So: Knowing what constitutes an Agondonter, a bit about their destiny and relative scarcity, how does it impact your interaction with life’s vicissitudes?
Great question, Gene! I look foward to seeing the responses from one and all.
For me, I think a big thing is that I find myself often surrounded by folks who are self-proclaimed atheists or agnostics. In discussing life questions with them, I get from them an attitude that those who believe in God are deluded, foolish, naive, gullible, weak, etc. I don’t let that bother me – especially after reading TUB – because I know that our challenge and opportunity in this life is to accept and embrace the chance to ‘believe without seeing’ and to ‘persevere when isolated’. So when I find myself in the minority in my faith in God, I see that as my birthright as a Urantia-born ascending citizen of the Universe. It’s an exciting opportunity and challenge, as I expressed above, and not a personal weakness.
So, anytime I find myself discouraged, feeling alone and isolated, I try to remind myself, ‘oh, yeah, it’s supposed to be like this. This is my chance to rise above and to shine and to embrace being an agondonter!’
Hello Gene!!
Time is short for now but…..the knowledge and perspective gained about our potential destiny has profoundly affected me in my motivations, my intentions, my priorities, my choices and my responses at every intersection of time and decision. Putting things in proper perspective helps me a great deal…you’ve heard the saying “Don’t sweat the small stuff…and it’s all small stuff.” This is materially true but not spiritually true….every decision and relationship is an opportunity to discover meanings and values. My destiny gives me confidence in the temporal nature of the vicissitudes and the inherent elements for discovery in each experience. This changes my own expressions and responses to material reality….the seat of my identity is shifting and as it moves along the spectrum away from the material pole to the spirit pole, the daily walk changes….but it does not truly change so much as I am changing in my view of it and my response to it.
The time unit view is critically important to remove anxieties from uncertainties. The uncertainties do not lessen in number but the assurance of ultimate outcomes for the believer should reduce all internal stress and material worry from the equation. We must learn to feast and fatten on uncertainty and experience disappointments with the eternal future and past in mind. There is no adventure without uncertainty….I am learning to embrace the adventure of living!!
Good question. = )
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