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VanA says above: “Not doing the Father’s will adds to the agony in the world. The Urantia Book outlines some of the particulars and specifics regarding the Father’s will. Wouldn’t you agree?
Like what to do to safeguard civilization from fostering, protecting, and perpetuating
“hopelessly defective strains of evolutionary human stocks”
It seems logical to address this issue, especially when the revelation emphasizes how important it is. The fact that we’re a little late as a planet in getting it done, thanks to our rebellious and degenerate CalaGas, only puts it on the planetary priority list in a high place, don’t you think?
To me it’s interesting, that even in the UB community, there seems to be unwillingness to recognize that, at least among some of those in the community who express themselves on these types of forums. Some have responded to me, when I’ve brought it up, that I’m trying to make a “racial” or “social class” issue out of it. No, it’s just a matter of doing what the revelation clearly indicates is the Father’s will for our planet.
Whether it’s nice or not.”Me here: What this community member keeps waiting for is a valid definition of exactly WHO these people are PRECISELY and then to describe the practical and doable process for such a eugenic “cleansing”. Are we to eliminate people or isolate people or sterilize people? What do you propose?
What this community member keeps waiting for is a valid definition of exactly WHO these people are PRECISELY and then to describe the practical and doable process for such a eugenic “cleansing”. Are we to eliminate people or isolate people or sterilize people? What do you propose?
All very pertinent and good questions. I often think about it. Honestly, on the one hand, I really don’t know. On the other, I know what to do when I encounter a degenerate. And I know how to evaluate if I’ve encountered one or not. Even primitives did this.
(52:2.11) An idiot does not have much chance of survival in a primitive and warring tribal social organization.
(88:1.9) idiots were either beaten to death or revered as fetish personalities
I’m not for being unkind. But being nice to degenerate idiots, isn’t kind at all.
What I propose is to take all what the Urantia Book says together and allow those spiritual agents that exist to enhance our spiritual perception to prevent what the revelators describe as degenerates to increase the misery, and to eliminate the likelihood that they will add to the agony many endure on our world. For example, the people of Syria.
Regarding the folly of allowing the degeneration of society to advance, what do you propose to do about what the Urantia Book says Bradly?
Regarding the “defective strains of evolutionary human stocks” I would suggest that we, as a species, are not yet ready to identify precisely who may fit this category (I disagree with VanAmadon, who suggests above that it is easy to do – at least for him).
I also disagree with VanAmadon’s statement that “being nice to degenerate idiots, isn’t kind at all”. Of course we need to be kind to those who lack the intellectual capacity to function at normal levels of human intelligence! My gosh!
My feeling about the whole eugenics concept in TUB is that it requires significant maturity, as a society, to be able to carry out a proper program to weed out inferior genetic stock and that it would take, literally, centuries of time to accomplish. Words like “cleansing” are not helpful nor applicable, in my view. The only way such a program could be successfully carried out is by a society in which its citizens, to a person, are fully aware and fully advocate the common good. Once we reach that milestone, those who recognize genetic disease, genetic mental illness propensities, and other inferiorities in themselves will willingly reduce and eventually stop altogether reproducing.
The same time, society will treat such individuals with deference and, yes, kindness, in nurturing them and assisting their attempts to advance the common good. Society would find ways to allow such individuals to find expression for their parental and familial needs in ways other than bearing their own children. The entire society would rally around such indivdiuals and all would see it as a common cause for the common good.
We are a long way from that; certainly not in our lifetimes or our grandchildren’s lifetimes.
My feeling about the whole eugenics concept in TUB is that it requires significant maturity, as a society, to be able to carry out a proper program to weed out inferior genetic stock and that it would take, literally, centuries of time to accomplish.
I agree that when it comes to making decisions of this nature we are supposed to use group judgment. Not just a select group of know-it-alls, but like Keryn says, a majority in a given society.
159:1.6 Thus did Jesus teach the dangers and illustrate the unfairness of sitting in personal judgment upon one’s fellows. Discipline must be maintained, justice must be administered, but in all these matters the wisdom of the brotherhood should prevail. Jesus invested legislative and judicial authority in the group, not in the individual. Even this investment of authority in the group must not be exercised as personal authority. There is always danger that the verdict of an individual may be warped by prejudice or distorted by passion. Group judgment is more likely to remove the dangers and eliminate the unfairness of personal bias. Jesus sought always to minimize the elements of unfairness, retaliation, and vengeance.
In our current generation there is a kind of minority mania sweeping society. Not even a group majority would be able to make such changes today without inciting a civil war. I think we are extremely far off from sanely considering any kind of even fair and kind eugenics. So my advice is to fahgettaboutit.
Please try to understand. The terms the revelators used:
idiots
degenerates
defectives
and so forth, I use to emphasize what the Urantia Book says.
If you were invaded in your home at night by someone who we can be safe to say can be described by the terms the revelators use, would you be kind, or nice to him?
Or would you “fahgettaboutit” in the aftermath?
The only way such a program could be successfully carried out is by a society in which its citizens, to a person, are fully aware and fully advocate the common good.
How will that “Catch 22” ever happen when that society is comprised of persons who won’t ever “go with the program”?
If we “fahgettaboutit” our grandchildren will not think it was kind of us to have done that. Don’t you think?
Van/nod says: “What I propose is to take all what the Urantia Book says together and allow those spiritual agents that exist to enhance our spiritual perception to prevent what the revelators describe as degenerates to increase the misery, and to eliminate the likelihood that they will add to the agony many endure on our world. For example, the people of Syria.
Regarding the folly of allowing the degeneration of society to advance, what do you propose to do about what the Urantia Book says Bradly?”You’re not making any sense nod….and this has nothing to do with the topic under discussion….thanks for derailing and taking over yet another discussion. Keryn answered perfectly well for me. You are the one always concerned with what others are doing or not and should be doing or not.
I have confidence that our planetary evolution through the Mortal Epochs will bring us to a time (in 5-10 more generations) when medical science, social wisdom, brotherly love, and experiential wisdom will be able to address genetic faults and eugenic solutions driven by love, compassion, wisdom, and capabilities….none of which we have today….and yet science is on the cutting edge of biogenetic engineering way before the group wisdom Bonita mentions.
Impatience is the immature expression of the incorrect time unit perspective. Now get back to Agondonters….or hold your tongue please.
(920.3) 82:6.5 Hybridization of superior and dissimilar stocks is the secret of the creation of new and more vigorous strains. And this is true of plants, animals, and the human species. Hybridization augments vigor and increases fertility. Race mixtures of the average or superior strata of various peoples greatly increase creative potential, as is shown in the present population of the United States of North America. When such matings take place between the lower or inferior strata, creativity is diminished, as is shown by the present-day peoples of southern India.
(920.4) 82:6.6 Race blending greatly contributes to the sudden appearance of new characteristics, and if such hybridization is the union of superior strains, then these new characteristics will also be superior traits.
(920.5) 82:6.7 As long as present-day races are so overloaded with inferior and degenerate strains, race intermingling on a large scale would be most detrimental, but most of the objections to such experiments rest on social and cultural prejudices rather than on biological considerations. Even among inferior stocks, hybrids often are an improvement on their ancestors. Hybridization makes for species improvement because of the role of the dominant genes. Racial intermixture increases the likelihood of a larger number of the desirable dominants being present in the hybrid.
(920.6) 82:6.8 For the past hundred years more racial hybridization has been taking place on Urantia than has occurred in thousands of years. The danger of gross disharmonies as a result of crossbreeding of human stocks has been greatly exaggerated. The chief troubles of “half-breeds” are due to social prejudices.
(920.7) 82:6.9 The Pitcairn experiment of blending the white and Polynesian races turned out fairly well because the white men and the Polynesian women were of fairly good racial strains. Interbreeding between the highest types of the white, red, and yellow races would immediately bring into existence many new and biologically effective characteristics. These three peoples belong to the primary Sangik races. Mixtures of the white and black races are not so desirable in their immediate results, neither are such mulatto offspring so objectionable as social and racial prejudice would seek to make them appear. Physically, such white-black hybrids are excellent specimens of humanity, notwithstanding their slight inferiority in some other respects.
(920.8) 82:6.10 When a primary Sangik race amalgamates with a secondary Sangik race, the latter is considerably improved at the expense of the former. And on a small scale — extending over long periods of time — there can be little serious objection to such a sacrificial contribution by the primary races to the betterment of the secondary groups. Biologically considered, the secondary Sangiks were in some respects superior to the primary races.
(921.1) 82:6.11 After all, the real jeopardy of the human species is to be found in the unrestrained multiplication of the inferior and degenerate strains of the various civilized peoples rather than in any supposed danger of their racial interbreeding.
Please try to understand. The terms the revelators used: idiots degenerates defectives and so forth, I use to emphasize what the Urantia Book says. If you were invaded in your home at night by someone who we can be safe to say can be described by the terms the revelators use, would you be kind, or nice to him? Or would you “fahgettaboutit” in the aftermath?
I knew where the terms came from; I was not offended by the terms.
Are you familiar with the phrase ‘turn the other cheek’?
140:3.14 (1571.1) “I am sending you out into the world to represent me and to act as ambassadors of my Father’s kingdom, and as you go forth to proclaim the glad tidings, put your trust in the Father whose messengers you are. Do not forcibly resist injustice; put not your trust in the arm of the flesh. If your neighbor smites you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. Be willing to suffer injustice rather than to go to law among yourselves. In kindness and with mercy minister to all who are in distress and in need.
I think the disagreement lies in how we each define, in our own minds, those terms used by the revelators. “Idiots”, “degenerates”, “defectives” etc. To me, these refer to those who are subnormal in their genetic gifts or their mental capacities in some way. It has nothing to do with race or enthicity, it is an individual biological trait that causes them to be inferior in terms of their capacity for spiritual growth or the expression of truth, beauty and love. None of us are able to identify that in someone else. We simply do not possess sufficient wisdom to do so.
VanAmadon wrote: Please try to understand. The terms the revelators used: idiots degenerates defectivesRip Van Winkle, will you please start your own thread on this subject. This thread is about Agondonters . . . last I checked. I think it’s a bit idiotic, defective and degenerate to derail a topic the way you constantly do . . . ah shucks, I’ve done it again. I’ve made a judgment. Forgive me. What does the group think about this? As I’ve said before and believe, I don’t think individuals, especially like myself, can make these judgments since I am clearly swayed by my own personal prejudices and passions.
Bradly,
I wanted to say that this topic of agondonters is an excellent one and has provided rich discussion so far. I apologize to you for my part in following the eugenics derail. I really do want to talk about agondonters some more. In particular, something in this quote is striking:
50:7.2 (579.1) On Jerusem the ascenders from these isolated worlds occupy a residential sector by themselves and are known as the agondonters, meaning evolutionary will creatures who can believe without seeing, persevere when isolated, and triumph over insuperable difficulties even when alone. This functional grouping of the agondonters persists throughout the ascension of the local universe and the traversal of the superuniverse; it disappears during the sojourn in Havona but promptly reappears upon the attainment of Paradise and definitely persists in the Corps of the Mortal Finality. Tabamantia is an agondonter of finaliter status, having survived from one of the quarantined spheres involved in the first rebellion ever to take place in the universes of time and space.
I wonder why the designation of agondonter “disappears” during the sojourn in Havona but then “reappears” upon Paradise. That would seem to indicate that the designation has some type of function or reason for being used everywhere except in Havona.
Any thoughts as to why that is?
Now get back to Agondonters….or hold your tongue please.
Oh heck. I must have been typing when you posted this . . . I guess it is a group decision then. Do two make a group? I’ll have to look that up but I think it would be better if we had a third person . . .
ANYBODY! Please speak up if you want Rip Van Winkle to start his own thread . . .
Keryn wrote: I apologize to you for my part in following the eugenics derail.Can I interpret this to mean your vote is for a separate thread? I’d like to make you poster #3 in the group making that judgment. What do you say?
A Google search on “agondonters” yields this pdf document, that seems to be sourced to Chris Halvorson (please forgive me if I am referencing a sketchy or unapproved source, here, but I think what I pull from it is harmless enough, in any case).
Eymology of coined words used in the Urantia Papers
Agondonters etymology is shown as:
Agondonter:(Latin) agon, a struggle; (Latin) donator, one who gives (one whogives a struggle?) When a specific denotation is wanted in connection with asystematically used root or phoneme, the requisite word or sufficient part thereof issimply stuck into the phoneme: “Divinington,” “Ascendington,” “abandonters,”“supernaphim,” “Chronoldeks,” “agondonters.”Isn’t that interesting? One who gives struggle. Perhaps even, one who voluntarily struggles [to create a relationship with an unseen being, God].
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