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There is another interesting part of the revelation that comes to mind and it was when Jesus and Ganid were studying the religions of the world in Alexandria.
Ganid had an eye-opener when he discovered that the vast majority of religions, regardless of divergent beliefs, believed on “one God”.
This is something any religious student can do today in the living room behind a lap top.
Discovering what different religions have in common is much more rewarding than dwelling on their differences.. . . .her eyes got wide and she indicated, “I never had thought of that!
That’s what I’ve been saying. So few real thinkers and so many trapped in cultural bondage. I’ll bet you aroused her divine emotions, which is what opens up the gateway. Those little eye-openers can let in a lot of light!
152:6.4 Jesus taught the appeal to the emotions as the technique of arresting and focusing the intellectual attention. He designated the mind thus aroused and quickened as the gateway to the soul, where there resides that spiritual nature of man which must recognize truth and respond to the spiritual appeal of the gospel in order to afford the permanent results of true character transformations.
Bonita wrote: He designated the mind thus aroused and quickened as the gateway to the soul, where there resides that spiritual nature of man which must recognize truth and respond…
That is a good reference for this discussion. Appeal to the soul through the mind, the soul….and eventually, the TA…with truth. And as it says….the TA MUST respond.
And you mention those trapped in cultural bondage. That is an apt description but most do not even realize their entrapment. I sat in my spouse’s church recently watching a long line of people drink from the cup after being told, “(drink this), the blood of Christ.” My mind wandered off and I was thinking….how long will this pagan distortion last? Quite long, I think….but it WILL go away eventually – the true Gospel will prevail. The sad thing is…all of this is a roadblock for many that are leary of Christianity, other religions, and even God…and thus….we see our society/world becoming much more secular and materialistic, at least in the short run…which is probably the next many, many decades.
I sat in my spouse’s church recently watching a long line of people drink from the cup after being told, “(drink this), the blood of Christ.” My mind wandered off and I was thinking….how long will this pagan distortion last?
I agree, the belief in transubstantiation is a bunch of hocus-pocus hooey, but there is some value in the ritual regardless of all the magic and mystery surrounding it, because Jesus actually does show up! All it takes is a little spirit consciousness to recognize him. I’ve experienced this myself, so I know it’s true.
(1942.5) 179:5.6 This supper of remembrance, when it is partaken of by those who are Son-believing and God-knowing, does not need to have associated with its symbolism any of man’s puerile misinterpretations regarding the meaning of the divine presence, for upon all such occasions the Master is really present. The remembrance supper is the believer’s symbolic rendezvous with Michael. When you become thus spirit-conscious, the Son is actually present, and his spirit fraternizes with the indwelling fragment of his Father.
Bonita, while I agree with you, there are people who will give up a relationship because of faith/belief. If you do not share their same belief system then you are not, to them, relationship material.
I may be going through a talk with my ladys’ mom in wich I will have to tell her that, even though I go to a Christian church, no, I am not a Christian. My lady listens to her mother a great deal. So, if, even though her and I have already discussed the matter, if Mom suggests to her that, because of religious differences, we would not be a good match, there goes the relationship.
Remember, I am from the south. The bible belt to be exact. Alabama to be more particular. Anything that is not fundamentalist Christian down here is considered a false, and therefore, not legitimate religion. That’s just the way it is down here. If you are not ultra conservitive fundamentalist Christian you are going to Hell.
I showed her Mom the ub and she said that it was one man’s oppinion after he disagreed with the Bible. I’m not sure how long she read it as I just gave her the Foundations’ website. She said that sense the UB wasn’t a religion that she felt aukward reading it. She asked me not to get her daughter involved with it. Her daughter has no interest in it, so that won’t be a problem. We were not able to talk further but I sence that more conversations are comeing.
Nigel, thanks for the idea!
Cole, that’s what I am afraid will happen here. When I start to explain the differences I’ll be shut out of the relationship either by my lady or my ladys’ mom. That is how important religion is to them. And I understand that that didn’t happen between you and your wife. How did you overcome the difference? How did she? Do you discuss your mutual differences or just let it lie? Do you partisapate in each others’ religious practices? EX. Church for you, UB related activities for her? If not what do you two do while the other (on both sides of the couple) are engaged in your varrious religious practices? EX. What does she do while you are in UB study group? What do you do while she is in church?
Gene, while I agree with you, the problem, as I stated above in this response to multiple authors’ posts, is that I am from the south. Most people down here won’t look into anything that is not their particular brand of Christianity. I fear that the mother, who has a large influence on the daughter, is such a one. I also fear that my lady, aka the daughter, is the same.
Bonita, I deffanatly agree with you about the cultural bondage part!
Cole, I agree with you on that. People do not see the forest for the trees. And I also agree with you on the rest of your post.
Bonita, be careful about insulting the core beliefs of another religion. The way that you phrased that could turn away a truth seeker from said religion.
Bonita, be careful about insulting the core beliefs of another religion. The way that you phrased that could turn away a truth seeker from said religion.
The way I phrased what?
If a person gets offended by truth, then he/she is not a sincere truth-seeker. A sincere truth-seeker will recognize truth regardless of the form it is presented. Jesus did not concern himself with correcting misunderstandings of the truth he taught.
155:6.12 You must cease to seek for the word of God only on the pages of the olden records of theologic authority. Those who are born of the spirit of God shall henceforth discern the word of God regardless of whence it appears to take origin. Divine truth must not be discounted because the channel of its bestowal is apparently human.
141:7.12 He paid no attention to public opinion, and he was uninfluenced by praise. He seldom paused to correct misunderstandings or to resent misrepresentation. He never asked any man for advice; he never made requests for prayers.
143:1.4 I have come into this world to do the will of my Father and to reveal his loving character to all mankind. That, my brethren, is my mission. And this one thing I will do, regardless of the misunderstanding of my teachings by Jews or gentiles of this day or of another generation.
I think Chucks refered to those …
132:0.4 … And this was his method of instruction: Never once did he attack their errors or even mention the flaws in their teachings. In each case he would select the truth in what they taught and then proceed so to embellish and illuminate this truth in their minds that in a very short time this enhancement of the truth effectively crowded out the associated error; .
… but there is some value in the ritual regardless of all the magic and mystery surrounding it, because Jesus actually does show up!
Up here is a good way to phrased it .
Down here, must be carefull addressed.
If a person gets offended by truth, then he/she is not a sincere truth-seeker.
Jesus did not concern himself with correcting misunderstandings of the truth he taught.
… that is why He choose carefully truths whom won’t put his listeners on defensive and succeed to slip in an unprovacative one.
… and as you quoted , sometimes He got right with truths whom will offended listeners.
Generally all humans in 7 Universes are recipients with huge potentials awaiting the spirited works of spiritual ministeries.
Love inspired us to behave kindly towards those soon to be sincere truth-seeker. Because they are beloved by their Father
that is why He choose carefully truths whom won’t put his listeners on defensive and succeed to slip in an unprovacative one.
I think most of the Sadducees and Pharisees were constantly put on the defensive by what Jesus said. They were always provoked by his words because they were not really truth-seekers. Some of Jesus’ parables confused and perplexed his own apostles, so much that they even got to arguing over them. Jesus was never superficially frothy in his teaching so as not to offend people. He spoke truth and whole sections of society were offended by what he said; but that was their problem, not his.
So, I don’t really care how offended people get when I say I don’t believe in hell or that Jesus died for my sins. That’s what I believe and if folks are offended by my beliefs, that’s their problem, not mine. I’m not asking them to change theirs, just stating mine, which I’m entitled to have. Things would be entirely different if a person came to me sincerely asking if hell exists. If I respond to that sincere question with truth, I doubt the questioner would be offended by my explanation of why hell can’t exist, and that’s because the mind would be open to an answer; the mind would be willing to consider alternatives. That’s a truth-seeker.
Love inspired us to behave kindly towards those soon to be sincere truth-seeker. Because they are beloved by their Father
Yes, but don’t forget that the Father’s love is sometimes seen by us as tough love, especially when we’re not focused on truth.
2:5.3 The Creators are the very first to attempt to save man from the disastrous results of his foolish transgression of the divine laws. God’s love is by nature a fatherly affection; therefore does he sometimes “chasten us for our own profit, that we may be partakers of his holiness.” Even during your fiery trials remember that “in all our afflictions he is afflicted with us.”
188:4.10 True, wise fathers may chasten their sons, but they do all this in love and for corrective purposes.
Chuck,
Your problem is difficult but not isolated. I’ve only met a few couples who both believe the book, whereas others seem to worked it out, as the comments here suggest. While it seems to me that Jesus would not want us to compromise our spiritual ideals, all else is pretty much fair game. I’m certainly no expert on the topic and any relationship advice is always a bit of a hot potato.
Nevertheless, I would just like to say that I have two adult children who were both brought up with the UB teachings and yet neither of them read the book. But I do know, as the book has taught me, that they are greatly influenced by my example as well as by my loyalty to all things spiritual.
On reflection, I thought I could add something else that is perhaps a little more relevant to your question. Some years ago, I met an attractive lady at a UB conference. We were instantly drawn to each other and soon struck up a romantic relationship. At one point, I even held the rather naïve notion that our meeting was supremely ordained. But less than two years later it proved to be a supreme disaster.
I can, therefore, attest first-hand that having the same beliefs is no guarantee for a successful relationship. But in retrospect, I must also admit that, at the time, neither of us really understood the important messages of the UB as regards spiritual growth, nor did we live our lives consecrated to the doing of our Father’s will.
I still believe that a relationship is enhanced by spiritual sharing and, ideally, it would be best if both parties wholly believed the teachings of Jesus. But not far behind would be one in which both parties were at least monotheistic and believed in the ultimate goodness of God.
Having said this, a more over-riding consideration lies in the nature of the relationship itself. Only those relationships in which both parties share mutual love, understanding, and respect have any hope of survival. Our lives down here are short, and differences in beliefs will mean little when you both resurrect on the mansion world and when you both awaken to the same truth.
I am always touched by the excerpt of a Mighty Messenger who continues to be in “close and loving association” with their one-time mortal companion (22:2.6). I’m not sure how long it takes to become a Mighty Messenger but I believe it’s over one billion years. Now that’s love!
Hie guys and girls! Sorry for the long absence but I was on vacation without internet access.
An update to my situation! As I predicted, I had a talk with my lady’s mom. She asked me point blank if I was a Christian. I told her no but I was a follower of God, my relationship with him was the most important part of my life, and he has helped me a great deal through the years. She told me that my not being a Christian was proving to be a real struggle for her but that she would be going through the same struggle if her daughter was seeing anyone else that was a follower of a (my words inside perrens here, nonChristian) different religion. Actually, that was a sticking point with her as well. She said that it would not have been as big of an issue if I was a follower of a religion such as Judaism. She would still be struggling with why I was not a Christian though. Her issue with the ub was that it isn’t an actual religion. She sees it as one man’s oppinion concerning the Bible. She is not inclined to go any deeper in her research as well. She also has a problem with the ub psymbol that I wear. She said it looked like a toy. I pointed out to her that the cross wasn’t always the symbol of the Christian church, but the fish was. She had no reply to that. One more thing. She asked me not to tell the family that I am not a Christian.
Bonita, I will coppy the part of your post that I was refering to. You said “I agree, the belief in transubstantiation is a bunch of hocus-pocus hooey,….” That could deeply offend anyone who has deeply held Christian beliefs such as the people I deal with. If any of them read that, they would assume that everyone who was an ub believer had the same attitude of insulting hostility towards Christianity. Also, that attitude is the same one that I get from Christians about the ub. It isn’t my belief system so it doesn’t count. Our job is to present truth in the most favorable light possible. That quote if read by a Christian who held those beliefs as deeply to himself as you hold the ub would not be favorably received. Jesus did not point out errors nor insult anyones’ beliefs. He simply presented new truth in the most favorable light possible. Some were offended because it wasn’t the truth that they were raised with. It wasn’t supported by the religious authority that they subscribed to. Some were not offended but received the new truth gladly. We have the same situation today. It isn’t in the Bible, taught by my church, or isn’t compattible with my current belief system. I was raised with the idea that if it wasn’t in the Bible that it didn’t count as religious truth and should not be studied except for enough to know the basic facts about any religion. I, however, read religious books for intertainment long before I read the ub and the bible. I really wanted to know what others believed though I wasn’t willing to convert to that belief system… until I encountered the ub. It eventually changed every aspect of my life.
Bonita, I will coppy the part of your post that I was refering to. You said “I agree, the belief in transubstantiation is a bunch of hocus-pocus hooey,….” That could deeply offend anyone who has deeply held Christian beliefs such as the people I deal with. If any of them read that, they would assume that everyone who was an ub believer had the same attitude of insulting hostility towards Christianity. Also, that attitude is the same one that I get from Christians about the ub. It isn’t my belief system so it doesn’t count.
Hey there chucksmith. Did you read the rest of what I wrote? I said that the hocus-pocus is not true but the rendezvous with Jesus is true, and therefore the ritual has some merit. That IS focusing on the positive. You yourself do not believe in the hocus-pocus of Christianity, but you do believe in Jesus, right? It’s no different. Since when is speaking up for what you believe a mistake? If you recall, the revelator laments that the men and angels confronting the Lucifer Rebellion did not have the courage to assert themselves and claim their rights (53:3.4). TUB lauds courageous prophets who attacked erroneous beliefs and fostered truth (97:4.2-4; 97:7.13).
So I say it’s just too bad for you if you don’t like when I say that magic words aren’t necessary for the remembrance supper. It turns out non-Catholic Christians also don’t believe magic literally turns wine into blood or bread into flesh. I’m not alone there. In fact, I’d say most of the world thinks that transubstantiation is bogus. And if some hypothetical person is offended because I, a UB reader, do not believe in magic, well, that’s their problem, not mine. Magic is not real. Jesus never taught magic. So I say, too bad, deal with it. Encouraging people to live in a fantasy world is not helping them. The truth sets people free, but only if they want to be free. If they really want to live in cultural bondage after hearing the truth, that’s their free-will decision. I’ll not stop them or judge them for it.
Anyway, I think you should go back to your future mother-in-law and describe how much you love Jesus. That is, if you do love Jesus. Her heart might be touched by that. Frankly, I don’t see how anyone could not be affected deeply by hearing someone describe their wholehearted devotion to Jesus, the Truth. It’s a beautiful thing.
Hi Chuck — technically, “Christians” are doing their sincere best to trek through Paul’s maze of beliefs. You and Bonita are simply following Jesus. Can you somehow show your friends this?
Recall back in message #29171 I mentioned that before men invented Christianity, Jesus was living an ideal religious life. This is the life that Jesus himself is recommending for us. Bonita has simply discovered, recognized, and chosen this living Way.
Just think of it, a billion Christians personally and explicitly in love with our (local) universe creator; just a few misunderstandings in the way of discovering the Way.
Talk about “quivering on the very brink…” ( 2082.7 195:9.2 )
Nigel
Chuck noted:
Cole, that’s what I am afraid will happen here. When I start to explain the differences I’ll be shut out of the relationship either by my lady or my ladys’ mom. That is how important religion is to them. And I understand that that didn’t happen between you and your wife. How did you overcome the difference? How did she? Do you discuss your mutual differences or just let it lie? Do you partisapate in each others’ religious practices? EX. Church for you, UB related activities for her? If not what do you two do while the other (on both sides of the couple) are engaged in your varrious religious practices? EX. What does she do while you are in UB study group? What do you do while she is in church?
How did we overcome the differences? I think we agreed to not agree. And it was left there. We just do not discuss it. I frequently go to church with her…..largely to support her…..there are really no churches that agree with my personal theological beliefs. Soooo…. you go forward and try to focus on the positives. We are a vanguard, and THAT is a VERY difficult position to hold in a world that is largely opposed to the truths we espouse. I will say that the small Catholic church we attend is generally quite agreeable with regard to all but much of the theology. But…..I recently had a discussion over lunch with a Catholic priest from Burma via the southern region of India. I questioned him regarding the presence of spirit, soul, mind, personality in us mortals. I was pleasantly surprised at his answers. Next time I see him, I will encourage him to speak on these manners and thus (perhaps) enlighten his congregation. IMO, most people are totally ignorant of these matters.
Regarding attending services/meetings together: In the distant past, she went with me to one conference in Aspen, one picnic and then one study group meeting. She did not seem to enjoy herself so I no longer request or suggest such anymore. Relationships are largely a giving proposition….so I try to live by that mantra. I do not attend study groups much any more. Largely because of the distances involved.
Regarding your statement to her mother that you follow God. I would probably say to a person under the circumstances you describe something like: “I follow Jesus, who is my creator, and the Father in Heaven”. Fundamentalist Christians have a great issue with where you stand on the question of who is Jesus and what do you believe about him. If you disregard Jesus as you apparently did in your answer…they WILL note that in a negative manner (and, I would not discuss his relationship to the Trinity).
In general regarding discussions with others not tuned to our beliefs: I would not dwell on the differences but the similarities. But there is one exception to that. Because the UB frequently tells us of the Paganism problem of Christianity, I believe we have some responsibility to let the world know that….with great gentleness. Plant the meme. Whenever I discuss religion with anyone, if the opportunity arises, I mention it as a problem with most religions. And people that I encounter usually express some agreement after considering/hearing the truth of the matter. But I am not limited in that regard to just Catholicism. ALL Christian faiths, Islam, Judaism and many other faiths are to some degree infected with Paganism. I grew up in the Baptist and Lutheran faiths. It is certainly there….in overdrive. Atonement, probably our 2nd largest area of disagreement (IMO – and it is of course, related) is more difficult and I rarely discuss that….unless I perceive that the person is VERY open to the reflection necessary to dismiss error.
And finally, I totally agree with Nigel. Strive to be the kindest person that your friends/acquaintances know…and listen to them. You will gain a magnetism that will draw people to your side. They will look to be with you and hear what you have to say. This is the most important approach to most interpersonal relations, IMO.
To my Christian family and friends I am known as a ‘Jesusonian’! Most Christians are well aware of the conflicts and contradictions in the Bible (the Biblically literate that is)….the words and teachings of Christ are the foundation and core for Christian beliefs…first and foremost. If one is literate ourselves with the Jesusonian gospel within the Bible, it is an easy bridge to build. Jesus taught what I believe and what determines my faith, my priorities, my choices, and my destiny.
Why fight with the cocoon holding the butterfly? Learn and teach in fellowship with other Believers. Not all that difficult a concept or practice. Can’t believe the Fifth if you don’t believe the Fourth!! And know it too.
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