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  • #35672
    Bonita
    Bonita
    Participant

    Here’s another good quote that describes mind evolution with birth of the soul and the beginning of spiritual ministry.  Note that one of the spiritual circuits of the Divine Minister is the Holy Spirit as explained in 8:5.3.  And we already know that the Holy Spirit is in the soul because she provides soul intelligence (101:3.2)

    34:5.3 Mortal man first experiences the ministry of the Spirit in conjunction with mind when the purely animal mind of evolutionary creatures develops reception capacity for the adjutants of worship and of wisdom. This ministry of the sixth and seventh adjutants indicates mind evolution crossing the threshold of spiritual ministry. And immediately are such minds of worship- and wisdom-function included in the spiritual circuits of the Divine Minister.

    8:5.3 In your sacred writings the term Spirit of God seems to be used interchangeably to designate both the Infinite Spirit on Paradise and the Creative Spirit of your local universe. The Holy Spirit is the spiritual circuit of this Creative Daughter of the Paradise Infinite Spirit. The Holy Spirit is a circuit indigenous to each local universe and is confined to the spiritual realm of that creation; but the Infinite Spirit is omnipresent.

     

     

    #35673
    Bonita
    Bonita
    Participant

    Note to self, one more definition: …The mind is a personal-energy system existing around a divine spirit nucleus and functioning in a material environment. 12:9.6

    Sorry I missed this.  Yeah, that’s one thing we didn’t talk about when it comes to mind – the phenomenon of mind energy.  One doesn’t often think of mind as a kind of energy.  There are even mind-energy manipulators.  So much to know.

    #35674
    Rick Warren
    Rick Warren
    Participant

    Here’s another good quote that describes mind evolution with birth of the soul and the beginning of spiritual ministry. Note that one of the spiritual circuits of the Divine Minister is the Holy Spirit as explained in 8:5.3. And we already know that the Holy Spirit is in the soul because she provides soul intelligence (101:3.2)

    34:5.3 Mortal man first experiences the ministry of the Spirit in conjunction with mind when the purely animal mind of evolutionary creatures develops reception capacity for the adjutants of worship and of wisdom. This ministry of the sixth and seventh adjutants indicates mind evolution crossing the threshold of spiritual ministry. And immediately are such minds of worship- and wisdom-function included in the spiritual circuits of the Divine Minister. 8:5.3 In your sacred writings the term Spirit of God seems to be used interchangeably to designate both the Infinite Spirit on Paradise and the Creative Spirit of your local universe. The Holy Spirit is the spiritual circuit of this Creative Daughter of the Paradise Infinite Spirit. The Holy Spirit is a circuit indigenous to each local universe and is confined to the spiritual realm of that creation; but the Infinite Spirit is omnipresent.

    Excellent insights! Plug me in and charge me up, Mom.

    .

    #35716
    Avatar
    Nigel Nunn
    Participant

    Bonita wrote:

    Here’s another good quote (see 34:5.3) that describes mind evolution with birth of the soul and the beginning of spiritual ministry. Note that one of the spiritual circuits of the Divine Minister is the Holy Spirit as explained in (see 8:5.3). And we already know that the Holy Spirit is in the soul because she provides “soul intelligence” (see 101:3.2).

    Rick wrote:

    “Excellent insights! Plug me in and charge me up, Mom.”

    Thanks Bonita and Rick for these insights. What paper 9 clarifies for me is the intimacy of the relationship the Infinite Spirit has with each of us personally: as the personal presence of the Holy Spirit circuit of his local universe Daughter, our Divine Mins. Which casts a surprising light on our so-called “material” human minds. While these minds may use material wetware to manipulate that “protoplasmic memory material” (see 101:6.4), our actual intellect resides in the “rhythmic pulsations” (see 117:5.7) of a level of consciousness of this same local universe Daughter of the Infinite Spirit… which seems so utterly “non-material”.

    While we may tend to discount our “human” mind as, well, merely material mind, to me it now seems every bit as miraculous an invention as morontia mind. Maybe even more so, given that so much has to be set up to allow biological tissue to be thrilled by adjutant ministry. Think of the complexity of what the Divine Minister has achieved in her collaboration with the Life Carriers!

    Which brings us to morontia mind, and local universe ministry to morontia minds, and our embryonic capacity to respond to such ministry. And to that question we bumped into elsewhere:

    In the same way that the Divine Minister supplies and then ministers to our material minds, she supplies and then ministers to the continuum of levels of morontia mind required by our soul. Question is, how does this brand new baby soul (which receives and responds to her superadjutant ministry) actually begin?

    To put this another way: a unique part of the Urantia book revelation is that our soul (as redefined in these papers) is created as a completely new thing during our human life; and that a personal, free-will moral choice is crucial. Question is, while the local universe Divine Minister “ministers to” our baby souls, what role does she play in their actual creation ?

    Nigel

    #35717
    Bonita
    Bonita
    Participant

    She provides the supermind, the liaison between material consciousness and superconsciousness and the link from material life to emerging morontia life.  Mind and life go together.  Without it there’d be no interrelationship between the two levels of consciousness. And without her personal presence, the cocreative event which gives birth to the morontia soul would have nothing to cocreate with. Only personalities cocreate. Once the soul is cocreated there is a dwelling place for the Adjuster. The Adjuster needs a mind to live in.  First the dwelling place, then the indwelling.

    #35718
    Avatar
    jocelyn
    Participant

    The Trinity 0f the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are seen as beings of primordial perspectives- first form of manifestation. The Father is the creative force Spirit, he is unqualified.  The second person  the Son is a person, he is the sustaining force issuing from the Godhead: a being plus intelligence and the universe certainly has that.  The Holy Spirit is a creative force as an potential for these forms.  They are forms of the formless of the creative force.  They are not fully form are they are coming to be, as the potential.  These Deity as forms of the formless Father when divine qualities are refined they revealed themselves as Thuth, Beauty and Goodness. The compensation mention in 9.1.5 occurs here as truth, beauty and goodness are relative to start with and not supreme or ultimate.

    The Holy Spirit is the transformative power or energy that connect the individual self with the Ultimate Divine and is the substance of the entire universe. They are foundational involutionary given or primal causal archetypes.  They are primordial form or perspectives beginning manifest forms of Spirit or God or Ultimate Reality.  From these high causal emanates the lower causal – the creation.  When creation occur several new archetypes which are lesser in being but not in importance occurs. These patterns include , communion; autonomy and agency, a relationship drive,  Agape is the love of the Father for our lower manifestation enabling us human to embrace or integrate various creative concepts, and Eros which is love of the lower manifestation for the higher manifestation. These lower archetypes These perspective four drives and many zones of inner and outer development are archetypal in nature and thus means that they will be fundamental to all forms found in evolution because it is part of us human epistemological and ontological.  They are given from the start.  The Holy Spirit I believe uses these lesser archetypes as bridge when :

    9.1.5 At time and in certain function he seems to compensate for the incompleteness of the development of the experiential Deities- God the supreme and god the Ultimate.

    9.2.1 it also say that we benefit by the spiritual influences and activities of the local universe and the superuniverse , with their almost endless array of loving personalities who ever lead the true of purpose and the honest of heart upward and inward towards the ideals of divinity and the goal of supreme perfection.

    9.2.1The Third person in his spiritual ministry may function as mind plus spirit or as spirit alone.

    The Third person in his spiritual ministry function as spirit alone is I believe when the human heart can be flooded with The primordial nature of God- Spirit alone.

    PS: This is my first attempt to share my understanding of these difficult esoteric concepts.  I hope I have been able to extrapolate on these concepts.

    Jocelyn

     

    #35719
    Bonita
    Bonita
    Participant

    The Trinity 0f the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are seen as beings of primordial perspectives

    Thanks for your input Jocelyn.  One piece of information you may have overlooked is that the Holy Spirit is not a member of the Trinity. In the tenets of the Christian Church the Holy Spirit, Holy Ghost, or Spirit of God is part of of the Trinity, however TUB reveals that is not the case.  In the quote below the Holy Spirit is described as a strictly local universe phenomenon.  In other words, the Infinite Spirit is a member of the Trinity but the Holy Spirit is not.  It’s simply a matter of terminology and the authors of TUB attempt to set us straight.

    8:5.3 In your sacred writings the term Spirit of God seems to be used interchangeably to designate both the Infinite Spirit on Paradise and the Creative Spirit of your local universe. The Holy Spirit is the spiritual circuit of this Creative Daughter of the Paradise Infinite Spirit. The Holy Spirit is a circuit indigenous to each local universe and is confined to the spiritual realm of that creation; but the Infinite Spirit is omnipresent.

    #35720
    Avatar
    Nigel Nunn
    Participant

    Regarding the role of the Holy Spirit in the creation of a human soul, Bonita wrote:

    “She provides the supermind, the liaison between material consciousness and superconsciousness and the link from material life to emerging morontia life. Mind and life go together. Without it there’d be no interrelationship between the two levels of consciousness. And without her personal presence, the cocreative event which gives birth to the morontia soul would have nothing to cocreate with. Only personalities cocreate. Once the soul is cocreated there is a dwelling place for the Adjuster. The Adjuster needs a mind to live in. First the dwelling place, then the indwelling.”

    Bonita, thanks for sharpening the question! It’s precisly this “cocreative event which gives birth to the morontia soul” that we were wondering about. Regarding the actual birth or creation of our human souls, here’s a quick sample of cherry-picked quotes. At the end, I raise a question we bumped into at another forum.

    (5:2.5) “[…]. As the soul of joint mind and Adjuster creation becomes increasingly existent, …” (65.1, 5:2.5)

    (5:5.13) “[…]. The indwelling of the Mystery Monitor constitutes the inception and insures the possibility of the potential of growth and survival of the immortal soul.” (69.8, 5:5.13)

    (5:5.14) “[…]. A human mind discerning right and wrong and possessing the capacity to worship God, in union with a divine Adjuster, is all that is required in that mortal to initiate and foster the production of his immortal soul of survival qualities …” (70.1, 5:5.14)

    (5:6.7) “[…]. This material personality and this spirit prepersonality are capable of so uniting their creative attributes as to bring into existence the surviving identity of the immortal soul.” (71.2, 5:6.7)

    (37:5.1) “[…]. During this temporary sojourn they foster the evolution of an immortal soul just as in those beings with whom they hope to fuse, […]” (410.4, 37:5.1)

    (40:9.2) “[…]. During this temporary sojourn the Adjusters effectively build up the same spirit counterpart of mortal nature — the soul — that they do in the candidates for Adjuster fusion. […]” (450.4, 40:9.2)

    (48:6.2) “You should understand that the morontia life of an ascending mortal is really initiated on the inhabited worlds at the conception of the soul, at that moment when the creature mind of moral status is indwelt by the spirit Adjuster. […]” (551.7, 48:6.2)

    (86:5.2) “[…]. As civilization advances, this superstitious concept of the soul is destroyed, and man is wholly dependent on revelation and personal religious experience for his new idea of the soul as the joint creation of the God-knowing mortal mind and its indwelling divine spirit, the Thought Adjuster.” (954.1, 86:5.2)

    (111:2.2) “The material mind of mortal man is the cosmic loom that carries the morontia fabrics on which the indwelling Thought Adjuster threads the spirit patterns of a universe character of enduring values and divine meanings — a surviving soul of ultimate destiny and unending career, a potential finaliter.” (1217.6, 111:2.2)

    (111:3.1) “The mistakes of mortal mind and the errors of human conduct may markedly delay the evolution of the soul, although they cannot inhibit such a morontia phenomenon when once it has been initiated by the indwelling Adjuster with the consent of the creature will. […]” (1218.9, 111:3.1)

    (112:5.12) “[…]. This newly appearing entity is the soul, and it survives the death of both your physical body and your material mind. This entity is the conjoint child of the combined life and efforts of the human you in liaison with the divine you, the Adjuster.” (1234.1, 112:5.12)

    (117:5.3) “The evolving immortal soul of man, the joint creation of the material mind and the Adjuster, […]” (1286.1, 117:5.3)

     

    Bonita, here’s the question: given all the above, is an Adjuster required for creating a human soul?

    Thanks for any insight!

    Nigel

    #35721
    Bonita
    Bonita
    Participant
    Nigel Nunn wrote:Bonita, here’s the question: given all the above, is an Adjuster required for creating a human soul?
    No.  We’re told that the Adjusters cannot invade the mind until it has been prepared.  Preparation includes encircuitment by the Holy Spirit.   The Holy Spirit sets the stage.  The Holy Spirit is the supermind, the source of soul intelligence.  Obviously, no matter which way you split the hair, the Holy Spirit, the provider of soul consciousness, comes first, otherwise there’s no mind to invade.  The Adjusters do not live in the adjutant mind, the one that gets weaned away and eventually goes to dust.  So, I guess what you’re trying to tell me is the supermind is not the Holy Spirit and the supermind is not soul intelligence, right?  Why would they tell us that the Holy Spirit is responsible for soul intelligence if the Holy Spirit is not part of the soul??

    108:2.2 The Adjusters cannot invade the mortal mind until it has been duly prepared by the indwelling ministry of the adjutant mind-spirits and encircuited in the Holy Spirit. And it requires the co-ordinate function of all seven adjutants to thus qualify the human mind for the reception of an Adjuster. Creature mind must exhibit the worship outreach and indicate wisdom function by exhibiting the ability to choose between the emerging values of good and evil — moral choice.

    108:2.3 Thus is the stage of the human mind set for the reception of Adjusters, but as a general rule they do not immediately appear to indwell such minds except on those worlds where the Spirit of Truth is functioning as a spiritual co-ordinator of these different spirit ministries. If this spirit of the bestowal Sons is present, the Adjusters unfailingly come the instant the seventh adjutant mind-spirit begins to function and signalizes to the Universe Mother Spirit that it has achieved in potential the co-ordination of the associated six adjutants of prior ministry to such a mortal intellect. Therefore have the divine Adjusters been universally bestowed upon all normal minds of moral status on Urantia ever since the day of Pentecost.

    92:0.4  3. The Holy Spirit–this is the initial supermind bestowal, and it unfailingly appears in all bona fide human personalities. This ministry to a worship-craving and wisdom-desiring mind creates the capacity to self-realize the postulate of human survival, both in theologic concept and as an actual and factual personality experience.

    103:0.1 All of man’s truly religious reactions are sponsored by the early ministry of the adjutant of worship and are censored by the adjutant of wisdom. Man’s first supermind endowment is that of personality encircuitment in the Holy Spirit of the Universe Creative Spirit; and long before either the bestowals of the divine Sons or the universal bestowal of the Adjusters, this influence functions to enlarge man’s viewpoint of ethics, religion, and spirituality. 

    101.3.2  Faith-insight, or spiritual intuition, is the endowment of the cosmic mind in association with the Thought Adjuster, which is the Father’s gift to man. Spiritual reason, soul intelligence, is the endowment of the Holy Spirit, the Creative Spirit’s gift to man. Spiritual philosophy, the wisdom of spirit realities, is the endowment of the Spirit of Truth, the combined gift of the bestowal Sons to the children of men. And the co-ordination and interassociation of these spirit endowments constitute man a spirit personality in potential destiny.

    All the quotes you provided concern readers of TUB.  All readers of TUB have Adjusters.  The authors are not interested, and I don’t think it was part of their mandate, to go into any great detail about souls without Adjusters, other than to mention the few instances when it happened in history and the phenomenon of soul death.

    Abel was born to Adam and Eve after they were demoted to mortal status.  Can we assume Abel had an Adjuster if Cain did not?  No we cannot.  Abel died.  Did he have a soul?  Did he survive?  We’re not told.  We do know he had a personality, or at least we can assume that he was a bona fide human being with a functioning morally responsible personality separate from his parents given his age.  Do you think he was annihilated because he had no Adjuster and hence no soul? What do you really think deep down inside?

     

     

     

    #35722
    Bonita
    Bonita
    Participant

    As I said, Nigel, all the quotes you offered are meant for current readers of TUB here on Urantia. All current readers of TUB have Adjusters who come simultaneously with the Holy Spirit and Spirit of Truth. But that was not always the case.  Before any Adjuster comes to any mind it has to be prepared by the Holy Spirit.  The question becomes then, does this prepared mind qualify as the soul if the Adjuster is delayed in coming, as in pre-Pentecostal times?

    It is almost ridiculously obvious to me that the Holy Spirit is integral to the soul if it is responsible for soul reasoning and intelligence.  Clearly there is a soul present, either with or without an Adjuster, if a personality utilizes all the adjutants and makes a moral choice allowing for arrival of the Holy Spirit and soul intelligence.   It just so happens that current readers of TUB also get an Adjuster concurrent with the birth of a soul and the Adjuster is responsible for initializing the dual transcripts for survival.

    Is there another way a soul can survive without an Adjuster providing this service?  Little information is given to us probably because there’s no instance where it is applicable today other than perhaps adjusterless children.  But we know the “Judges of the universes will not deprive any being of personality status who has not finally and fully made the eternal choice; the soul of man must and will be given full and ample opportunity to reveal its true intent and real purpose.” (112:5.9) 

    We also know the Holy Spirit functions long before the universal coming of Adjusters (103.1), therefore we know that there are individuals with soul intelligence, and hence a soul, who lived and died without Adjusters.  We also know that in order to have soul intelligence they had to be bona fide human personalities.  We have just been told in 112:5.9 that any being of personality status with a soul (Holy Spirit soul intelligence) must be given a full opportunity to make an eternal choice.  Therefore, like adjusterless souls, and adjusterless children with or without souls, but all with personality, survival is possible.  Why? Because out here in time and space ” . . .  potential is always supreme over the actual. In the evolving cosmos the potential is what is to be, and what is to be is the unfolding of the purposive mandates of Deity.” (102:5.1)  How this kind of survival happens, we’re not told.  It apparently wasn’t part of the revelation mandate.  Either that, or no one bothered to ask the question when TUB was being prepared.  But we do know for sure that, “Personality identity survives in and by the survival of the soul.” (16:9.3)  

    If a child dies before acquiring a soul, the child is not a bona fide human personality and remains attached to the parental personality until reaching moral responsibility, bona fides and individuation.   Personality seems to be the key component to survival.  If the potential is there and capacity has not yet developed, or is underdeveloped, the universe will provide time for the evolution of capacity in order to fulfill the potential.  That’s how I see it.

     

    #35749
    Avatar
    Nigel Nunn
    Participant

    Bonita wrote:

    The Holy Spirit is the supermind, the source of soul intelligence.

    When you remind us that the Holy Spirit is the source of “soul intelligence” (101:3.2), I have to wonder: is she also the source of the soul itself ?

    So let’s sharpen the question some more: Is the human soul nothing but morontia mind, or something more miraculous, whose creation requires some action by the Universal Father?

    Regarding human survival, you make an appealing case: “What about that full opportunity to make an eternal choice?” (see 112:5.9)

    Since all we have to go on is what the revelators reveal, what about all those virgin Adjusters, and spirit fused souls? One simple extrapolation we might consider is that a virgin Adjuster’s first experience is to initiate the soul of a sincere human on a primitive (pre-bestowal) world, then effectively to leave this (miraculous) embryo in the care of the superadjutant ministry of the personal presence of that local universe’s Divine Minister.

    What do you think?

    Nigel

    #35755
    Bonita
    Bonita
    Participant

    One simple extrapolation we might consider is that a virgin Adjuster’s first experience is to initiate the soul of a sincere human on a primitive (pre-bestowal) world, then effectively to leave this (miraculous) embryo in the care of the superadjutant ministry of the personal presence of that local universe’s Divine Minister.

    What about all those pre-Pentecostal souls who haven’t satisfied one of the six conditions to get an Adjuster?  Are you saying they don’t have souls?  I think they do since one of the conditions is reaching the 3rd psychic circle.  How do you do that without a soul?  And, are you also saying that once a virgin Adjuster leaves a soul, the soul continues to live with Holy Spirit ministry?   I’ll have to check again, but I think if an Adjuster indwells a soul, even if on a temporary basis, it stays for an entire lifetime, or until either soul death or brain death.  Needless to say again, the Holy Spirit comes first, I think it’s a well established fact, and she doesn’t need an Adjuster to help her provide superadjutant-supermind ministry.

    108:2.2 The Adjusters cannot invade the mortal mind until it has been duly prepared by the indwelling ministry of the adjutant mind-spirits and encircuited in the Holy Spirit.

    I don’t care how you spin this yarn, the Holy Spirit is the minister to the soul who provides it with a mind and a spirit presence.  If the Adjuster doesn’t come for a season, the Holy Spirit, who is a spirit person, can spiritualize the thoughts and character of the personality for survival.  In fact, TUB says she can do this with or without the complete cooperation of the individual but does a better job of it if there is such willingness. The soul, once it’s born begins to grow in and of itself, and the Holy Spirit is the reason.  Which means she is perfectly capable of evolving the soul through the psychic circles without the help of an Adjuster or the Spirit of Truth.  When the third circle is entered, the soul is guaranteed to get an Adjuster regardless of what era the planet is in.   How does a personality conquer psychic circles without a soul? That is a huge question no Holy Spirit skeptic has answered yet.

     34:5.5 Though the Spirit of Truth is poured out upon all flesh, this spirit of the Son is almost wholly limited in function and power by man’s personal reception of that which constitutes the sum and substance of the mission of the bestowal Son. The Holy Spirit is partly independent of human attitude and partially conditioned by the decisions and co-operation of the will of man. Nevertheless, the ministry of the Holy Spirit becomes increasingly effective in the sanctification and spiritualization of the inner life of those mortals who the more fully obey the divine leadings.

    108:2.7 2. The attainment of the third circle of intellectual achievement and spiritual attainment. I have observed Adjusters arrive in mortal minds upon the conquest of the third circle even before such an accomplishment could be signalized to the local universe personalities concerned with such matters.

    I’m wondering if you think Cain was living without a soul prior to his Adjuster arrival.  Do you think he made it to age 20 without ever making a single moral decision which would have united all seven adjutants and sent a signal of readiness to the Creative Spirit to send her supermind ministry to form the morontia fabric of the soul.  If not, he would have been nothing but a superanimal, capable of thinking moral thoughts but never acting on them.  Even more primitive human minds than his, such as Andon and Fonta and their descendants, made simple moral decisions and got souls.  If Cain had a soul without an Adjuster, who or what was ministering to it?  Was it the adjutants that cannot function beyond the material level, the ones that don’t go to the morontia mansion worlds?  Or was it the Holy Spirit the source of soul intelligence, the very fabric of the soul itself?

    If things were reversed and Abel slew Cain, Cain would have been annihilated, according to you, because you claim he had no soul without an Adjuster.  It seems unfathomable to me that the son of Eve would perish because of a so-called rule that only those touched by Adjusters can survive.  It seems rather arbitrary to me since it’s personality that matters, the soul being the vehicle for its survival, unless you don’t have one and are still attached to your parents’ personalities who presumably do have souls sufficient to carry you to the mansion worlds at some point.  I think Cain was too old to still be attached to his parents, but I guess that’s an assumption.  If he was some how retarded in development, and age 6 came and went without a moral decision ever, all the way to age 20, then perhaps he was still attached to them.  But if he was developmentally retarded, how was he able to become a farmer and practice his religion?  Makes no sense, the father of Enoch, the first human to fuse, was mentally and morally challenged?  It’s a head scratcher.

     

    #35775
    Avatar
    Nigel Nunn
    Participant

    Bonita wrote:

    “I’m wondering if you think Cain was living without a soul prior to his Adjuster arrival.”

    I truly have no idea! From paper 76 section 2:

    “Cain had never been indwelt by an Adjuster, had always been defiant of the family discipline and disdainful of his father’s religion” (76:2.8)

    Was he too ornery to spend much time on moral choosing? What if there were in fact no moral fibers with which to weave his soul? Or, with his unique heritage, maybe other factors were in play? Was the Supreme waxing fat on the (pre-morontia) struggles of this absolutely unique human?

    Bonita, the only reason I even speculate about the need for an Adjuster in the creation of a soul comes from paper 40 section 5. Here the author is writing about the pre-bestowal phase of all inhabited worlds. Of course, any humans who can be saved surely are! This was the point I had in mind when suggesting that in pre-bestowal times — on any world — the first interaction of a truly virgin Adjuster might NOT be to indwell a human for their entire life, but merely to trigger the morontia miracle of soul birth — in a human who would otherwise not qualify for a life-long association. Such embryonic souls could then be fostered by the appropriate mind ministries of the local universe Divine Minister, until resurrection and “spirit fusion”.

    Bonita wrote:

    “What about all those pre-Pentecostal souls who haven’t satisfied one of the six conditions to get an Adjuster?”

    The question is: how were those pre-Pentecostal souls created?

    Bonita wrote:

    “I don’t care how you spin this yarn, the Holy Spirit is the minister to the soul who provides it with a mind and a spirit presence.”

    Precisely! Everything to do with super-adjutant ministry to that unique soul is both made possible and provided by the Holy Spirit. But that still begs the question about that crucial moment when a soul is actually created. Ministry is one thing, creation something else.

    Bonita wrote:

    “The soul, once it’s born begins to grow in and of itself, and the Holy Spirit is the reason. Which means she is perfectly capable of evolving the soul through the psychic circles without the help of an Adjuster or the Spirit of Truth.

    Indeed. So once a soul exists, the Holy Spirit can foster its evolution. Again, the question is not about the evolution of a soul, but about who creates it (and how).

    Bonita wrote:

    “How does a personality conquer psychic circles without a soul?”

    Isn’t this what the human mind is for? “Discovering, recognizing, interpreting…”, after which the Person is free to choose. Is a soul required for such purely human activity? Recall that, for most of us, during our human life, this soul remains effectively embryonic. Between the time of the soul’s birth, and the time it becomes “active” in some meaningful way, what role can it play in our choosing?

    Regarding human survival,

    (195.9, 16:9.3) “If mortal man fails to survive natural death, the real spiritual values of his human experience survive as a part of the continuing experience of the Thought Adjuster.”

    Reading (16:9.3), despite “real spiritual values” in their life, and despite actually having a life-long association with such a fragment of the Universal Father, it appears to be possible for a human not to survive. Which may contradict a certain point in “that manifesto“:

    (603.6, 53:3.5) “[…]. He maintained that […], that resurrection was natural and automatic, and that […].”

    As we are told, resurrection is not automatic, but unimaginably complicated. Even miraculous.

    Is this why Michael’s bestowal was so important: he opened the way to eternal life for ALL humans?

    just thinking out loud,
    Nigel

    #35777
    Bonita
    Bonita
    Participant

    The question is: how were those pre-Pentecostal souls created?

    By the Holy Spirit, preceded by the united function of the seven adjutants.

    This was the point I had in mind when suggesting that in pre-bestowal times — on any world — the first interaction of a truly virgin Adjuster might NOT be to indwell a human for their entire life, but merely to trigger the morontia miracle of soul birth.

    But you can’t find anything at all like that in TUB, whereas there is ample evidence that the Holy Spirit participates in the birth of the soul since the Adjuster cannot invade until the Holy Spirit encircuits the mind. I pick my option because there is more written evidence to support it.  There is absolutely no evidence that a TA comes and goes, that is, unless the soul dies.

    What if there were in fact no moral fibers with which to weave his soul?

    Seems to me that there were plenty of moral options given the persistent arguments over which profession had more value than the other, agriculture or herding.  There had to be at least a primitive understanding of good and evil since they were arguing over which profession was gooder.

    Precisely! Everything to do with super-adjutant ministry to that unique soul is both made possible and provided by the Holy Spirit. But that still begs the question about that crucial moment when a soul is actually created. Ministry is one thing, creation something else.

    I’m not sure why this quote below doesn’t satisfy that condition for you. The Holy Spirit comes before the Adjuster and the Holy Spirit is the supermind of the soul.  I can’t understand how anyone can interpret that any other way, but apparently you have.  How I don’t know. The order of things are cut and dry in my book.

    108:2.2 The Adjusters cannot invade the mortal mind until it has been duly prepared by the indwelling ministry of the adjutant mind-spirits and encircuited in the Holy Spirit.

    Indeed. So once a soul exists, the Holy Spirit can foster its evolution. Again, the question is not about the evolution of a soul, but about who creates it (and how).

    It’s the other way around. The Holy Spirit creates the soul, the morontia fabric first, then the Adjuster initiates the evolution of the potentially surviving character by embroidering eternal spiritual threads.  The Holy Spirit provides the mind for divine character development and the Adjuster initiates the process of evolving and growing that character.  Mind and character are two different things. If there is no Adjuster the Holy Spirit can contribute in terms of enhancing ethics, and spirituality.  Apparently enough to get through at least 4 psychic circles.

    “How does a personality conquer psychic circles without a soul?”Isn’t this what the human mind is for?

    The psychic circles are more than intellectual. It’s mostly about the personality reality,  soul growth, and attunement to Diety.  You can’t attune to Diety unless Deity is present to attune to.  Deity lives in the soul.

    110:6.3 The psychic circles are not exclusively intellectual, neither are they wholly morontial; they have to do with personality status, mind attainment, soul growth, and Adjuster attunement. 

    Nigel Nunn wrote:“Discovering, recognizing, interpreting…”, after which the Person is free to choose.

    And what is the mind discovering, recognizing and interpreting?  Deity and its associated divinity in the soul.  The lower mind is the soil that provides the urges for the mind to begin the process in order to solve moral problems.  The answers are found in the soul.

    Nigel Nunn wrote:Is a soul required for such purely human activity?

    It’s not purely human activity.  It’s superhuman activity.  Those words are describing spiritual insight into the soul.   The human activity has to do with moral dilemmas then the adjutant mind looks for superhuman answers (moral values & spiritual meanings) by engaging spiritual insight which is done through discovery, recognition, etc..

    196:3.10 The human mind does not create real values; human experience does not yield universe insight. Concerning insight, the recognition of moral values and the discernment of spiritual meanings, all that the human mind can do is to discover, recognize, interpret, and choose.

    Nigel Nunn wrote:Recall that, for most of us, during our human life, this soul remains effectively embryonic.

    Embryonic is a relative term.  Souls grow, and humans are aware of their souls.  It says so right here in this quote:

    111:3.4   Both the human mind and the divine Adjuster are conscious of the presence and differential nature of the evolving soul — the Adjuster fully, the mind partially. The soul becomes increasingly conscious of both the mind and the Adjuster as associated identities, proportional to its own evolutionary growth. The soul partakes of the qualities of both the human mind and the divine spirit but persistently evolves toward augmentation of spirit control and divine dominance through the fostering of a mind function whose meanings seek to co-ordinate with true spirit value.

    I think you’re confusing soul-consciousness with superconsciousness.  Superconsciousness is at the borderland of the soul and unconscious for the most part.  Humans are conscious of their souls, partially at first and then as it grows, more fully.  So full in fact that first circlers can communicate directly with their Adjuster.

    Nigel Nunn wrote:Between the time of the soul’s birth, and the time it becomes “active” in some meaningful way, what role can it play in our choosing?

    The soul reinforces decisions during our life.  That’s part of the discover, recognize, interpret and choose spiritual insight thing that gets thoughts up into the supermind for soul reinforcement.   The supermind is the liaison zone.

    111:3.2 During the life in the flesh the evolving soul is enabled to reinforce the supermaterial decisions of the mortal mind. The soul, being supermaterial, does not of itself function on the material level of human experience. Neither can this subspiritual soul, without the collaboration of some spirit of Deity, such as the Adjuster, function above the morontia level. Neither does the soul make final decisions until death or translation divorces it from material association with the mortal mind except when and as this material mind delegates such authority freely and willingly to such a morontia soul of associated function. During life the mortal will, the personality power of decision-choice, is resident in the material mind circuits; as terrestrial mortal growth proceeds, this self, with its priceless powers of choice, becomes increasingly identified with the emerging morontia-soul entity; after death and following the mansion world resurrection, the human personality is completely identified with the morontia self. The soul is thus the embryo of the future morontia vehicle of personality identity. 

    As the personality transfers identity to the soul, and the soul grows, the soul  fosters a mind function that coordinates meanings and values as described above in quote 111:3.4

    Is this why Michael’s bestowal was so important: he opened the way to eternal life for ALL humans?

    I think it was always open for all humans.  Jesus showed the way to conquer the psychic circles of divinity attainment.   It’s all about the soul – being born of the Holy Spirit.

    116:3.5 The creature bestowals of the Paradise orders of sonship enable these divine Sons to enrich their personalities by the acquisition of the actual nature of universe creatures, while such bestowals unfailingly reveal to the creatures themselves the Paradise path of divinity attainment. The Adjuster bestowals of the Universal Father enable him to draw the personalities of the volitional will creatures to himself. And throughout all these relationships in the finite universes the Conjoint Actor is the ever-present source of the mind ministry by virtue of which these activities take place.

    (1273.2) 116:4.10 When the bestowal Sons reveal new ways for man to find God, they are not creating these paths of divinity attainment; rather are they illuminating the everlasting highways of progression which lead through the presence of the Supreme to the person of the Paradise Father.

     

    #35779
    Bonita
    Bonita
    Participant

    Was he too ornery to spend much time on moral choosing? What if there were in fact no moral fibers with which to weave his soul?

    I wanted to go back to this.  I guess you’re basing your statement above on this quote:

    111:2.2 The material mind of mortal man is the cosmic loom that carries the morontia fabrics on which the indwelling Thought Adjuster threads the spirit patterns of a universe character of enduring values and divine meanings — a surviving soul of ultimate destiny and unending career, a potential finaliter.

    I just want to point out a few little details.  According to the quote the Adjuster doesn’t weave, or thread, moral fibers.   He threads a spirit pattern of character.  Also, he does this on morontia fabric, not moral fabric.  Finally, the material mind referred to is the entire mind of man, the cosmic loom is the individualized circuit, or nebula of the cosmic mind which includes  ministry from the adjutants on the lower level and from the trifecta of spirit entities on the upper level, surrounded or enveloped by the entire cosmic mind.

    The morontia fabrics within this arena are not part of the entire mortal mind, they are a new and separate level of mind which happens to have some overlay with the adjutant, non-morontia level below, specifically worship and wisdom (which is why those two adjutants also function in secondary midwayers).  The Adjuster threads character patterns on that morontia level which TUB calls the soul, the mid-mind in-between the adjutant below and the cosmic mind above.  The Adjuster does not provide the fabric, the Adjuster threads the makings of a spiritualized, survivable character on the morontia fabric of mind supplied by the Holy Spirit (supermind), which is why she has to come first.  Character is not mind but it depends on mind for expression, so the survivable character is contained within supermind. Nonsurvivable character stays with adjutant mind.

    Also, I was a little surprised last night when I realized that you didn’t know, or forgot, that the psychic circles involve soul growth, which is essentially survivable character growth.  The important thing about that piece of information is that soul growth is the impetus for all else that happens, as mentioned in the quote below. Mind attainment is not adjutant mind attainment but soul-mind attainment.  The adjutants get weaned off and the identity is transferred to the morontia soul which is closer to God.  Personality status becomes more real because it is more identified and attuned with God, the Adjuster in the soul.  It’s a package deal that centers around increasing awareness of the soul and the spiritual influences within it, along with making conscious choices for those discoveries which build a noble character worthy of surviving, the very character the Adjuster threads into soul fabric.  This cannot happen without spiritual insight, which in cartoon language is the eyes of the lower adjutant mind being able to see into the soul and discover, recognize, interpret and choose the spiritual values waiting there, all those personality credits which make us so rich.

    110:6.3 The psychic circles are not exclusively intellectual, neither are they wholly morontial; they have to do with personality status, mind attainment, soul growth, and Adjuster attunement. 

    48:7.6 4. Few mortals ever dare to draw anything like the sum of personality credits established by the combined ministries of nature and grace. The majority of impoverished souls are truly rich, but they refuse to believe it.

     

     

     

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