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Has anyone done the numbers? We do know 55 million Urantians die every year. We know there are 619 planets in the system. Assuming Urantia is average (probably not), that’s 34 billion.
But let’s low-ball it and say the average is 5.5 million deaths per planet, times 619 equals 3.4 billion per year, system-wide. That 187 million number is about 1/15th of 3 billion. So, do one in 15 survive? Maybe, but there are factors we can’t know, like: Was there a recent graduation from Jerusem when the 187 million count was done? Let’s say there was, and the class that graduated had 10 times that 187 million. That would total 1.87 billion. But how often does a class graduate? Once every system year (seems much too fast)? Assuming that does happen every year (which is about as long as Urantia’s year), that would mean about one in two survive….So much we don’t know.
I agree with you Rick.
What’s interesting about the low number of survivors reported in the UB is that it wasn’t inflated to include the possibilities you referenced. That the 187 million, when counted, was a number after a graduation, or some other thing which would reduce the number.
In other words, if 187 million is an anomaly and not an average, why would they report it that way and not provide rounded up numbers like they do more or less for everything else.
Given how the UB seems to emphasize mercy and so forth, why wouldn’t the UB provide a number of survivors more indicative of this, which would make the number much higher?
I think the UB makes it very clear telling us it’s 187 million (instead of 187 trillion for example) what the significance of the message is.
But again
What was the population of Urantia when Lucifer’s replacement was installed maybe 200000 years ago? How many were ascenders as % of that population? Seems the numbers that Posted in this thread assume the current post Pentecost 7 billion ???After 7 pages of quotes, opinions, ideas, thoughts and speculations, I think the essence of this entire question, and its answer, lies in what Bradly posted back on page 5:
How high is the standard for the material children of time who live such a brief life without benefit of example and knowledge for God’s love to deliver survival to those worlds designed for the very purpose of receiving such little ones for education and rehabilitation? What again is the purpose of these receiving worlds? Certainly not to receive those worthy of and ready for fusion!
The entire purpose of our existence is to overcome imperfection to become more like God. Being imperfect is the point! Slow, steady progress is the watchword; and such progress is intended to continue after mortal death.
Here’s a thought
I recall reading about the second area of Paradise and trying to figure how many finalaters they made space for from each super universe. I think it was a larger number than we have words for. Many powers of ten.Has anyone done the numbers? We do know 55 million Urantians die every year. We know there are 619 planets in the system. Assuming Urantia is average (probably not), that’s 34 billion. But let’s low-ball it and say the average is 5.5 million deaths per planet, times 619 equals 3.4 billion per year, system-wide. That 187 million number is about 1/15th of 3 billion. So, do one in 15 survive? Maybe, but there are factors we can’t know, like: Was there a recent graduation from Jerusem when the 187 million count was done? Let’s say there was, and the class that graduated had 10 times that 187 million. That would total 1.87 billion. But how often does a class graduate? Once every system year (seems much too fast)? Assuming that does happen every year (which is about as long as Urantia’s year), that would mean about one in two survive….So much we don’t know.
I agree with you Rick. What’s interesting about the low number of survivors reported in the UB is that it wasn’t inflated to include the possibilities you referenced. That the 187 million, when counted, was a number after a graduation, or some other thing which would reduce the number. In other words, if 187 million is an anomaly and not an average, why would they report it that way and not provide rounded up numbers like they do more or less for everything else. Given how the UB seems to emphasize mercy and so forth, why wouldn’t the UB provide a number of survivors more indicative of this, which would make the number much higher? I think the UB makes it very clear telling us it’s 187 million (instead of 187 trillion for example) what the significance of the message is.
For the sake of clarity (and a modicum of accuracy), the number of “survivors” has nothing to do with the quote in question or the number of 187 million…which is given as the number of mortal ascendant “citizens” of the System Capital at the time. Survivors in the System are comprised of 3 groups…..those on the System worlds (50+) including the receiving or Mansion Worlds; the sleeping survivors in slumber from the System’s material evolutionary planets; and those who will survive who still live and breath on the evolutionary worlds.
Also, the 187 trillion number you cite would require that all 1000 inhabited, evolutionary worlds be “inhabited” and each would need to average 187 billion residents +/-. It seems to me the topic and the math are both complicated enough without adding such hyperbole.
So, please tell us ….”what the significance of the message is.” And give us your estimations for the populations of the other 3 groups of survivors in the System. Thank you.
Bradly wrote:For the sake of clarity (and a modicum of accuracy), the number of “survivors” has nothing to do with the quote in question or the number of 187 million…which is given as the number of mortal ascendant “citizens” of the System Capital at the time.I was thinking, the quote says ascendent mortals. Do they mean ascending sons? Mortals don’t get to call themselves ascending sons until after they fuse with their Adjusters. (40:6.1; 40:7.2) We know that many mortals make it to Jerusem as provisional citizens without having fused with their Adjusters (66:4.9). We know because we have been told about the Caligastia one hundred who were chosen from a group of such provisional citizen volunteers. So, I’m not sure how they’re using that word, ascendent, or whether it includes all the provisional citizens.
40.6.1 6. THE FAITH SONS OF GOD The mortal races stand as the representatives of the lowest order of intelligent and personal creation. You mortals are divinely beloved, and every one of you may choose to accept the certain destiny of a glorious experience, but you are not yet by nature of the divine order; you are wholly mortal. You will be reckoned as ascending sons the instant fusion takes place, but the status of the mortals of time and space is that of faith sons prior to the event of the final amalgamation of the surviving mortal soul with some type of eternal and immortal spirit.
40.7.2 Your own races of surviving mortals belong to this group of the ascending Sons of God. You are now planetary sons, evolutionary creatures derived from the Life Carrier implantations and modified by the Adamic-life infusion, hardly yet ascending sons; but you are indeed sons of ascension potential — even to the highest heights of glory and divinity attainment — and this spiritual status of ascending sonship you may attain by faith and by freewill co-operation with the spiritualizing activities of the indwelling Adjuster. When you and your Adjusters are finally and forever fused, when you two are made one, even as in Christ Michael the Son of God and the Son of Man are one, then in fact have you become the ascending sons of God.
66:4.9 This group, while enjoying provisional citizenship on Jerusem, were as yet unfused with their Thought Adjusters; and when they volunteered and were accepted for planetary service in liaison with the descending orders of sonship, their Adjusters were detached. But these Jerusemites were superhuman beings — they possessed souls of ascendant growth. During the mortal life in the flesh the soul is of embryonic estate; it is born (resurrected) in the morontia life and experiences growth through the successive morontia worlds. And the souls of the Caligastia one hundred had thus expanded through the progressive experiences of the seven mansion worlds to citizenship status on Jerusem.
53:7.12 [Part II] It was over two years of system time from the beginning of the “war in heaven” until the installation of Lucifer’s successor. But at last the new Sovereign came, landing on the sea of glass with his staff. I was among the reserves mobilized on Edentia by Gabriel, and I well remember the first message of Lanaforge to the Constellation Father of Norlatiadek. It read: “Not a single Jerusem citizen was lost. Every ascendant mortal survived the fiery trial and emerged from the crucial test triumphant and altogether victorious.” And on to Salvington, Uversa, and Paradise went this message of assurance that the survival experience of mortal ascension is the greatest security against rebellion and the surest safeguard against sin. This noble Jerusem band of faithful mortals numbered just 187,432,811.
Cole’s question concerns the number of faithful mortals of Jerusem citizenship – “a noble band” – at the time Lanaforge was installed. When they say “noble band” aren’t they inferring the number of members in the group was small?
Has anyone done the numbers? We do know 55 million Urantians die every year. We know there are 619 planets in the system. Assuming Urantia is average (probably not), that’s 34 billion. But let’s low-ball it and say the average is 5.5 million deaths per planet, times 619 equals 3.4 billion per year, system-wide. That 187 million number is about 1/15th of 3 billion. So, do one in 15 survive? Maybe, but there are factors we can’t know, like: Was there a recent graduation from Jerusem when the 187 million count was done? Let’s say there was, and the class that graduated had 10 times that 187 million. That would total 1.87 billion. But how often does a class graduate? Once every system year (seems much too fast)? Assuming that does happen every year (which is about as long as Urantia’s year), that would mean about one in two survive….So much we don’t know.
I agree with you Rick. What’s interesting about the low number of survivors reported in the UB is that it wasn’t inflated to include the possibilities you referenced. That the 187 million, when counted, was a number after a graduation, or some other thing which would reduce the number. In other words, if 187 million is an anomaly and not an average, why would they report it that way and not provide rounded up numbers like they do more or less for everything else. Given how the UB seems to emphasize mercy and so forth, why wouldn’t the UB provide a number of survivors more indicative of this, which would make the number much higher? I think the UB makes it very clear telling us it’s 187 million (instead of 187 trillion for example) what the significance of the message is.
For the sake of clarity (and a modicum of accuracy), the number of “survivors” has nothing to do with the quote in question or the number of 187 million…which is given as the number of mortal ascendant “citizens” of the System Capital at the time. Survivors in the System are comprised of 3 groups…..those on the System worlds (50+) including the receiving or Mansion Worlds; the sleeping survivors in slumber from the System’s material evolutionary planets; and those who will survive who still live and breath on the evolutionary worlds. Also, the 187 trillion number you cite would require that all 1000 inhabited, evolutionary worlds be “inhabited” and each would need to average 187 billion residents +/-. It seems to me the topic and the math are both complicated enough without adding such hyperbole. So, please tell us ….”what the significance of the message is.” And give us your estimations for the populations of the other 3 groups of survivors in the System. Thank you.
I can’t estimate the numbers but to me, the significance of the message of the UB is that if I don’t pay attention, I could get confused and end up not surviving .
53:7.12 [Part II] It was over two years of system time from the beginning of the “war in heaven” until the installation of Lucifer’s successor. But at last the new Sovereign came, landing on the sea of glass with his staff. I was among the reserves mobilized on Edentia by Gabriel, and I well remember the first message of Lanaforge to the Constellation Father of Norlatiadek. It read: “Not a single Jerusem citizen was lost. Every ascendant mortal survived the fiery trial and emerged from the crucial test triumphant and altogether victorious.” And on to Salvington, Uversa, and Paradise went this message of assurance that the survival experience of mortal ascension is the greatest security against rebellion and the surest safeguard against sin. This noble Jerusem band of faithful mortals numbered just 187,432,811.
More information about this “noble band” of ascendant mortals who had residency status on Jerusem at the time.
53:7.10[Part II]The ascending mortals were vulnerable, but they withstood the sophistries of rebellion better than the lower spirits. While many on the lower mansion worlds, those who had not attained final fusion with their Adjusters, fell, it is recorded to the glory of the wisdom of the ascension scheme that not a single member of the Satania ascendant citizenship resident on Jerusem participated in the Lucifer rebellion.
Perhaps the “noble band” consisted of a group of ascenders assembled on the capital at the time, rather than those from an enormous dispensational group of ascenders, as noted in this reference:30:4.13[Part I]These dispensational classes of world pilgrims are utilized for group morontia activities in the work of the local universes. There is a great advantage in the mobilization of such enormous groups; they are thus kept together for long periods of effective service.A noble band is certainly different from an enormous group.I can’t estimate the numbers but to me, the significance of the message of the UB is that if I don’t pay attention, I could get confused and end up not surviving .
Another direct contradiction of the UB….can’t happen!!
(608.6) 53:7.10 The ascending mortals were vulnerable, but they withstood the sophistries of rebellion better than the lower spirits. While many on the lower mansion worlds, those who had not attained final fusion with their Adjusters, fell, it is recorded to the glory of the wisdom of the ascension scheme that not a single member of the Satania ascendant citizenship resident on Jerusem participated in the Lucifer rebellion.
The quote above gives more credence to my theory that the 187 million ascendant citizens were fused with their Adjusters. Fused mortals are not the only citizens of Jerusem who arrive from the mansion worlds. Also, those on the mansion worlds who were not fused and fell were not necessarily annihilated. I think most of them accepted rehab. Confusion does not lead to extinction unless rehab is rejected.
67:4.7 The vast majority of all human and superhuman beings who were victims of the Lucifer rebellion on Jerusem and the various misled planets have long since heartily repented of their folly; and we truly believe that all such sincere penitents will in some manner be rehabilitated and restored to some phase of universe service when the Ancients of Days finally complete the adjudication of the affairs of the Satania rebellion, which they have so recently begun.
2:3.6 The rule of the Creator Sons in the local universes is one of creation and spiritualization. These Sons devote themselves to the effective execution of the Paradise plan of progressive mortal ascension, to the rehabilitation of rebels and wrong thinkers, but when all such loving efforts are finally and forever rejected, the final decree of dissolution is executed by forces acting under the jurisdiction of the Ancients of Days.
7:4.7 Thus do the Deities effectively co-operate in the work of creation, control, evolution, revelation, and ministration — and if required, in restoration and rehabilitation.
21:5.7 That which mercy cannot rehabilitate justice will eventually annihilate.
54:4.3 The very fact that an evil-doing creature can actually choose to do wrong — commit sin — establishes the fact of free-willness and fully justifies any length delay in the execution of justice provided the extended mercy might conduce to repentance and rehabilitation.
(608.6) 53:7.10 The ascending mortals were vulnerable, but they withstood the sophistries of rebellion better than the lower spirits. While many on the lower mansion worlds, those who had not attained final fusion with their Adjusters, fell, it is recorded to the glory of the wisdom of the ascension scheme that not a single member of the Satania ascendant citizenship resident on Jerusem participated in the Lucifer rebellion.
The quote above gives more credence to my theory that the 187 million ascendant citizens were fused with their Adjusters.
Then again, maybe they weren’t fused.
112:7.3[Part III]Fusion with the Adjuster is usually effected while the ascender is resident within his local system. It may occur on the planet of nativity as a transcendence of natural death; it may take place on any one of the mansion worlds or on the headquarters of the system; it may even be delayed until the time of the constellation sojourn; or, in special instances, it may not be consummated until the ascender is on the local universe capital.Apparently, delayed fusion does not hold back an ascender’s progress to the constellation regime or to Salvington.When the Jerusem citizen is given clearance for Edentia, the peron is “proclaimed a true member of the morontia corps of Nebadon.” Sounds to me like the individual can be granted clearance to go to Edentia, whether or not fusion has occurred.47:10.6 [Part II]The mortal personality initiated on the evolutionary worlds and tabernacled in the flesh — indwelt by the Mystery Monitors and invested by the Spirit of Truth — is not fully mobilized, realized, and unified until that day when such a Jerusem citizen is given clearance for Edentia and proclaimed a true member of the morontia corps of Nebadon — an immortal survivor of Adjuster association, a Paradise ascender, a personality of morontia status, and a true child of the Most Highs.I can’t estimate the numbers but to me, the significance of the message of the UB is that if I don’t pay attention, I could get confused and end up not surviving .
Another direct contradiction of the UB….can’t happen!!
Oh you’re right. I forgot.
The UB says Lucifer proclaimed everyone survives no matter what.
I can’t estimate the numbers but to me, the significance of the message of the UB is that if I don’t pay attention, I could get confused and end up not surviving .
Another direct contradiction of the UB….can’t happen!!
Oh you’re right. I forgot. The UB says Lucifer proclaimed everyone survives no matter what.
Enno – we’ve had this discussion on TruthBook, you and I. You’re doubts as to your own worthiness and survival and that of your fellows for whom you are so concerned. Your lack of confidence in the survival of your soul originates from the beliefs and teachings of other religionists (especially certain so-called Christian religionists). And while your personal humility may be laudable and your uncertainties deserving of tender empathy and patience, still do you contradict the teachings. Non-survival, according to the Revelation, requires very specific knowledge, conscious decision, and knowing rejection of love and mercy….confusion won’t cut it dude.
110:3.5 (1206.3) Confusion, being puzzled, even sometimes discouraged and distracted, does not necessarily signify resistance to the leadings of the indwelling Adjuster. Such attitudes may sometimes connote lack of active co-operation with the divine Monitor and may, therefore, somewhat delay spiritual progress, but such intellectual emotional difficulties do not in the least interfere with the certain survival of the God-knowing soul. Ignorance alone can never prevent survival; neither can confusional doubts nor fearful uncertainty. Only conscious resistance to the Adjuster’s leading can prevent the survival of the evolving immortal soul.
34:7.8 (383.2) Having started out on the way of life everlasting, having accepted the assignment and received your orders to advance, do not fear the dangers of human forgetfulness and mortal inconstancy, do not be troubled with doubts of failure or by perplexing confusion, do not falter and question your status and standing, for in every dark hour, at every crossroad in the forward struggle, the Spirit of Truth will always speak, saying, “This is the way.”
188:4.9 Salvation should be taken for granted by those who believe in the fatherhood of God. The believer’s chief concern should not be the selfish desire for personal salvation but rather the unselfish urge to love and, therefore, serve one’s fellows even as Jesus loved and served mortal men.
Cheer up Enno….it’s not what I say or Lucifer said….it’s the whisper of the Comforter and Pilot within, the Light of Love that lives within and the 4th and 5th Epochal Revelations that should relieve your “confusional doubts” and your “fearful uncertainty”. I’ve always taken you for a Believer Enno. Did you know that well over 90% of Urantians today profess such belief? I wonder can those who believe in a Creator or Great Cause & Upholder, no matter how ignorant or depraved or misguided or misdirected, can they be condemned to oblivion by the God of our Brother Michael as taught by Jesus….the Giver of Life and the Loving Father of All?
Enno…do you truly fear for the survival of your soul? And the souls of others with the Light Within?
If so….then I am very sorry for you Brother, very sorry indeed. I hope you jest or hope to make some point I am too blind to see!
Enno, it might be useful to remember that as long as you disagree with the verdict of extinction, you won’t be executed. Neither will you be executed if your supporters and sympathizers also disagree. So, as long as we’re all fighting for you and you want to exist, you will.
(615.4) 54:3.2 Although conscious and wholehearted identification with evil (sin) is the equivalent of nonexistence (annihilation), there must always intervene between the time of such personal identification with sin and the execution of the penalty — the automatic result of such a willful embrace of evil — a period of time of sufficient length to allow for such an adjudication of such an individual’s universe status as will prove entirely satisfactory to all related universe personalities, and which will be so fair and just as to win the approval of the sinner himself.
(615.5) 54:3.3 But if this universe rebel against the reality of truth and goodness refuses to approve the verdict, and if the guilty one knows in his heart the justice of his condemnation but refuses to make such confession, then must the execution of sentence be delayed in accordance with the discretion of the Ancients of Days. And the Ancients of Days refuse to annihilate any being until all moral values and all spiritual realities are extinct, both in the evildoer and in all related supporters and possible sympathizers.
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