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What does being “in the zone” have to do with faith in God? Are you saying athletes are practicing their faith because of their relaxation techniques?
I’ll just say for now that just as natural beauty can be conducive to worshipful communion, relaxation and calm and similar qualities can be (at a minimum) conducive to faith. But common experience shows that all kinds of people can enjoy the outdoors without it being a personal communion with the Father. That does not, however, take away from the fact that pristine nature can be a powerful influence for the positive in one’s religious life. A similar dynamic for disciplines that cultivate calm, poise, etc..
There are other angles from which this can be viewed and I’ve tried to cover them previously in the thread, but it seems I may have failed to articulate them adequately. Without grossly repeating myself I don’t have much more to say, so I’m going to leave the matter be.
Thanks Bonita for taking the time to discuss this with me.
. . . relaxation and calm and similar qualities can be (at a minimum) conducive to faith.
I see it the exactly the other way around. Faith leads to prayer and the prayer of faith leads to calm relaxation. Calm relaxation then leads to increased capacity for receptivity. I don’t believe techniques to calm the body result in faith. Faith may inspire a person to calm and relax the body in order to pray.
I’ve always said that most folks on this planet think backwards. Folks busy stretching themselves on yoga mats, breathing in cosmic dust and focusing on physical chakras are not necessarily walking out of the exercise any more faithful than those who don’t do such things. Living faith has more to do with service, I think. Selfless acts of loving service are far more conducive to a growing faith than breathing exercises designed to calm the body and lower the blood pressure (which is self-centered).
Thanks Bonita for taking the time to discuss this with me.
Carl I welcome the discussion, and despite its appearances, I do understand what you’re talking about. I don’t disagree with the value of the things you mention. I studied and practiced esoteric religion for 50 years. It was a journey that had some benefits despite going down many a side road. So, if you want to get deep into a discussion on those things, I’m cool with it. I’m not sure if it requires its own thread though.
I think much of what is discussed here has to do with Self-Mastery….the mind’s will to manage reactions and responses to material and emotional stimuli….a worthy effort in self control and self transformation. It has been so important to me to change how I respond and how my very body responds in certain situations and circumstances and encounters. But when such is divorced from the spirit within, it lacks the true potential of transformation and transcendence IMO. Worship, even meaningful prayer, can certainly be less effective or even impossible if our animal nature and material ego reactions are in charge of SELF, rather than the spiritized mind controlling our motives, intentions, priorities, and choices….which eventuates in a response that is spiritually motivated as a natural reflex.
2. Lesson on Self-Mastery
143:2.1 (1609.2) The Master was a perfected specimen of human self-control. When he was reviled, he reviled not; when he suffered, he uttered no threats against his tormentors; when he was denounced by his enemies, he simply committed himself to the righteous judgment of the Father in heaven.143:2.2 (1609.3) At one of the evening conferences, Andrew asked Jesus: “Master, are we to practice self-denial as John taught us, or are we to strive for the self-control of your teaching? Wherein does your teaching differ from that of John?” Jesus answered: “John indeed taught you the way of righteousness in accordance with the light and laws of his fathers, and that was the religion of self-examination and self-denial. But I come with a new message of self-forgetfulness and self-control. I show to you the way of life as revealed to me by my Father in heaven.
143:2.3 (1609.4) “Verily, verily, I say to you, he who rules his own self is greater than he who captures a city. Self-mastery is the measure of man’s moral nature and the indicator of his spiritual development. In the old order you fasted and prayed; as the new creature of the rebirth of the spirit, you are taught to believe and rejoice. In the Father’s kingdom you are to become new creatures; old things are to pass away; behold I show you how all things are to become new. And by your love for one another you are to convince the world that you have passed from bondage to liberty, from death into life everlasting.
143:2.4 (1609.5) “By the old way you seek to suppress, obey, and conform to the rules of living; by the new way you are first transformed by the Spirit of Truth and thereby strengthened in your inner soul by the constant spiritual renewing of your mind, and so are you endowed with the power of the certain and joyous performance of the gracious, acceptable, and perfect will of God. Forget not — it is your personal faith in the exceedingly great and precious promises of God that ensures your becoming partakers of the divine nature. Thus by your faith and the spirit’s transformation, you become in reality the temples of God, and his spirit actually dwells within you. If, then, the spirit dwells within you, you are no longer bondslaves of the flesh but free and liberated sons of the spirit. The new law of the spirit endows you with the liberty of self-mastery in place of the old law of the fear of self-bondage and the slavery of self-denial.
Don’t forget that the urge to pray often comes from the angels; whereas, the urge to worship comes from the two higher adjutants (the gatekeepers to the soul).
p1245:4 113:4.4 The impulse of worship largely originates in the spirit promptings of the higher mind adjutants, reinforced by the leadings of the Adjuster. But the urge to pray so often experienced by God-conscious mortals very often arises as the result of seraphic influence. The guarding seraphim is constantly manipulating the mortal environment for the purpose of augmenting the cosmic insight of the human ascender to the end that such a survival candidate may acquire enhanced realization of the presence of the indwelling Adjuster and thus be enabled to yield increased co-operation with the spiritual mission of the divine presence.
Making an attempt
For all those people starting out, I don’t think we should be too worried about doing things perfectly. I was set back when I first started thinking about worship because I had the mistaken impression it had to be done correctly – that there was a right way to do it. And when I made my first forays into the practice, they felt clumsy and insincere, and they probably were to a great degree. But what kept me going was that, one day, I realized from the book that it all begins just by making an honest attempt.
To paraphrase (emphasis mine):
The divine presence of God is discovered in our attempted communion with the spirit of God within. (5.2.3)
We do not have to go farther than our own inner experience of our soul’s contemplation of the Spirit to find God and attempt communion with him. (5.0.1)
Jesus said “Never forget there is only one adventure which is more satisfying and thrilling than the attempt to discover the will of the living God, and that is the supreme experience of honestly trying to do that divine will.” (155.6.11)
There is no perfect way (at least for us mere mortals). And there is no easy way. Jesus warned us that we will inevitably pass through conflict and uncertainty as we make the transition to the realm of the spirit. 159.3.7
And there is no easy way.
When it comes to prayer I cannot agree. Prayer is easier than talking to another human being. Talking to God is a built-in feature of the human mind. It should come naturally to every personality. Only animals don’t carry on an inner dialogue because they are not personalities. Human thought is basically conversational. Who do you think your mind is conversing with? I would go so far as to say that if you’re not conversing with the “other” person in your head on a continual basis, then you’re not effectively thinking.
91:3.1 Children, when first learning to make use of language, are prone to think out loud, to express their thoughts in words, even if no one is present to hear them. With the dawn of creative imagination they evince a tendency to converse with imaginary companions. In this way a budding ego seeks to hold communion with a fictitious alter ego. By this technique the child early learns to convert his monologue conversations into pseudo dialogues in which this alter ego makes replies to his verbal thinking and wish expression. Very much of an adult’s thinking is mentally carried on in conversational form.
91:8.8 Modern man is perplexed by the thought of talking things over with God in a purely personal way. Many have abandoned regular praying; they only pray when under unusual pressure — in emergencies. Man should be unafraid to talk to God, but only a spiritual child would undertake to persuade, or presume to change, God.
102:4.1 Because of the presence in your minds of the Thought Adjuster, it is no more of a mystery for you to know the mind of God than for you to be sure of the consciousness of knowing any other mind, human or superhuman. Religion and social consciousness have this in common: They are predicated on the consciousness of other-mindness. The technique whereby you can accept another’s idea as yours is the same whereby you may “let the mind which was in Christ be also in you.”
1:7.1 When Jesus talked about “the living God,” he referred to a personal Deity—the Father in heaven. The concept of the personality of Deity facilitates fellowship; it favors intelligent worship; it promotes refreshing trustfulness. Interactions can be had between nonpersonal things, but not fellowship. The fellowship relation of father and son, as between God and man, cannot be enjoyed unless both are persons. Only personalities can commune with each other, albeit this personal communion may be greatly facilitated by the presence of just such an impersonal entity as the Thought Adjuster.
146:2.12 11. Many resort to prayer only when in trouble. Such a practice is thoughtless and misleading. True, you do well to pray when harassed, but you should also be mindful to speak as a son to your Father even when all goes well with your soul.
When it comes to prayer I cannot agree.
Well actually, I was discussing worship. Nonetheless, I think we should consider that the ability or inclination to pray or worship is different for all. Even Jesus said it was difficult.
“My brother, I perceive you are seeking for truth, and I suggest that the spirit of the Father of all truth may chance to dwell within you. Did you ever sincerely endeavor to talk with the spirit of your own soul? Such a thing is indeed difficult and seldom yields consciousness of success; but every honest attempt of the material mind to communicate with its indwelling spirit meets with certain success, notwithstanding that the majority of all such magnificent human experiences must long remain as superconscious registrations in the souls of such God-knowing mortals.” 133.4.10
I think much of what is discussed here has to do with Self-Mastery
Thanks Bradley, I agree that self-mastery is a noble and necessary goal for all of us. But a distinction I would clarify is that self-mastery is a product of worship rather than a cause. Like Jesus said, it is an indicator of spiritual development and the result of our transformation by the Spirit of Truth. Worship is a transforming experience. It’s our means of tapping into God’s love, power, and limitless resources in order to effect real and lasting personal changes in ourselves. And we will employ the infinite power of worship all the way to Paradise and beyond.
See 27.7
Well actually, I was discussing worship. Nonetheless, I think we should consider that the ability or inclination to pray or worship is different for all. Even Jesus said it was difficult.
“My brother, I perceive you are seeking for truth, and I suggest that the spirit of the Father of all truth may chance to dwell within you. Did you ever sincerely endeavor to talk with the spirit of your own soul? Such a thing is indeed difficult and seldom yields consciousness of success; but every honest attempt of the material mind to communicate with its indwelling spirit meets with certain success, notwithstanding that the majority of all such magnificent human experiences must long remain as superconscious registrations in the souls of such God-knowing mortals.” 133.4.10
As I understand the above quote, I think Jesus is saying that it can be difficult to break through to soul-consciousness as described in this quote:
p2097:2 196:3.3 The great challenge to modern man is to achieve better communication with the divine Monitor that dwells within the human mind. Man’s greatest adventure in the flesh consists in the well-balanced and sane effort to advance the borders of self-consciousness out through the dim realms of embryonic soul-consciousness in a wholehearted effort to reach the borderland of spirit-consciousness—contact with the divine presence. Such an experience constitutes God-consciousness, an experience mightily confirmative of the pre-existent truth of the religious experience of knowing God. Such spirit-consciousness is the equivalent of the knowledge of the actuality of sonship with God. Otherwise, the assurance of sonship is the experience of faith.
But I don’t think this is worship. I think it qualifies as prayer, albeit worship might result from such an effort. Worship goes through the personality circuit, which is through the Adjuster who lives in that borderland of overlapping soul and superconscious (5:3.2). Worship comes from the soul, not the mind, which is why we’re not fully conscious of worshipping, at least not until we get to a certain level of soul growth and soul-consciousness. So, it’s soul consciousness that requires effort, but that is not because prayer is difficult, but because soul growth is difficult, since it requires difficult decision making.
(66.3) 5:3.7 Sincere worship connotes the mobilization of all the powers of the human personality under the dominance of the evolving soul and subject to the divine directionization of the associated Thought Adjuster. The mind of material limitations can never become highly conscious of the real significance of true worship. Man’s realization of the reality of the worship experience is chiefly determined by the developmental status of his evolving immortal soul. The spiritual growth of the soul takes place wholly independently of the intellectual self-consciousness.
As I understand the above quote, I think Jesus is saying that it can be difficult to break through to soul-consciousness
I fear our discussion may have broken down into a debate over semantics, and we may just have to agree to disagree. To my mind, it seems clear that Jesus is referring to “… every honest attempt of the material mind to communicate with its indwelling spirit,” which I presume, would apply to attempts at both prayer and worship. (see 133.4.10)
However, because the UB states that worship is transformative, it inevitably raises the very real possibility that those who begin to worship will experience significant changes in their lives. And in this regard, I am only attempting to follow Jesus’ instruction in this matter, specifically as it is stated in the section “Instruction for Teachers and Believers.”
“Forewarn all believers regarding the fringe of conflict which must be traversed by all who pass from the life as it is lived in the flesh to the higher life as it is lived in the spirit. To those who live quite wholly within either realm, there is little conflict or confusion, but all are doomed to experience more or less uncertainty during the times of transition between the two levels of living. In entering the kingdom, you cannot escape its responsibilities or avoid its obligations, but remember: The gospel yoke is easy and the burden of truth is light.” 159:3.7
Are there any of us who can honestly say their whole spiritual journey has been one of ease and never-ending bliss?
I fear our discussion may have broken down into a debate over semantics, and we may just have to agree to disagree. To my mind, it seems clear that Jesus is referring to “… every honest attempt of the material mind to communicate with its indwelling spirit,” which I presume, would apply to attempts at both prayer and worship. (see 133.4.10)
First of all, I’m not debating. It’s a fact. Prayer is easy. TUB tells us that children do it, and that childlike prayer is the best kind of prayer.
Worship is not something anyone should spend a lot of time worrying about. Worship is the work of the soul. The only thing one can do is provide soil for soul growth. That begins with prayer. Prayer opens the gateway to the soul. Prayer is a dialogue with Deity initiated by the adjutant of worship. It is so simple an ape-man did it named Andon. It is natural. It is a built-in feature of the mortal creature mind. Prayer will happen automatically unless it is specifically inhibited. Worship by the soul is also natural. It will happen unless it is specifically inhibited.
Worship results from birthing and growing a soul. The mind consents to the birth and growth of a soul and the soul then craves and initiates worship. It does no good to exercise the material mind with specific methods and techniques to bring on the worship state. There is no formula. All you have to do is pray, which is easy, and prayer is the mind consenting to allow the soul to initiate contact with Deity. So, it is not prayer or worship that is hard; they’re both natural and easy. It’s soul growth that can be a challenge because it requires making a choice between two masters. And that is what Jesus was referring to, growing the soul and developing soul-consciousness in order to become conscious of the presence of God as an actual experience, which will logarithmically enhance worship.
5:3.8 The mortal mind consents to worship; the immortal soul craves and initiates worship; the divine Adjuster presence conducts such worship in behalf of the mortal mind and the evolving immortal soul.
Are there any of us who can honestly say their whole spiritual journey has been one of ease and never-ending bliss?
What about the peace that passes all understanding?
An interesting question Mark…and nice response Bonita! Mark, you’ve asked two questions but used only the one question mark. Frankly, my life is increasingly blissful, yes. Anxieties, conflicts, confusions all seem less frequent, less intense, and less weighty upon my mind. The angels keep me busy indeed along the edges of conflict and the vicissitudes of daily life….there’s always the next thing that must be coped with and dealt with….just like in school and with my relentless music teacher, always challenging what I know and pushing me to know more and know what I already know better than before! My life is less hectic and less demanding but more ‘interesting’ now….as I now seek out the potential meanings and values available at the intersections of choice and relationship rather than considering how these might materially work out or bring me some advantage….or disadvantage.
My measuring system changes over time…and this releases my mind and spirit to higher pursuits and better service. From family black sheep to family patriarch….what a long, strange trip it’s been. But now I am never lonely or alone, even in the darkest hour and most desperate of times I am able to smile and move forward in faith that love will always prevail no matter what comes to me or to those I love. Religious experience should deliver both wisdom and contentment, an ever increasing aggregation of both. It begins when that religious life profoundly changes motives, intentions, priorities, and choices….and over time, here comes the fruit and a growing confidence and ease of spirit, knowing that such alignment with reality delivers energy and force….opening new doors of discovery.
There is no adventure without uncertainty….but how we face uncertainty, even come to embrace and anticipate and enjoy the uncertainties in this river of life determines whether we have bliss….or don’t.
But the fruits of the Spirit are very real and attend me always….
34:6.13 (381.7) The consciousness of the spirit domination of a human life is presently attended by an increasing exhibition of the characteristics of the Spirit in the life reactions of such a spirit-led mortal, “for the fruits of the spirit are love, joy, peace, long-suffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, and temperance.” Such spirit-guided and divinely illuminated mortals, while they yet tread the lowly paths of toil and in human faithfulness perform the duties of their earthly assignments, have already begun to discern the lights of eternal life as they glimmer on the faraway shores of another world; already have they begun to comprehend the reality of that inspiring and comforting truth, “The kingdom of God is not meat and drink but righteousness, peace, and joy in the Holy Spirit.” And throughout every trial and in the presence of every hardship, spirit-born souls are sustained by that hope which transcends all fear because the love of God is shed abroad in all hearts by the presence of the divine Spirit.
5:2.4 (64.7) It is because of this God fragment that indwells you that you can hope, as you progress in harmonizing with the Adjuster’s spiritual leadings, more fully to discern the presence and transforming power of those other spiritual influences that surround you and impinge upon you but do not function as an integral part of you. The fact that you are not intellectually conscious of close and intimate contact with the indwelling Adjuster does not in the least disprove such an exalted experience. The proof of fraternity with the divine Adjuster consists wholly in the nature and extent of the fruits of the spirit which are yielded in the life experience of the individual believer. “By their fruits you shall know them.”
5:2.5 (65.1) It is exceedingly difficult for the meagerly spiritualized, material mind of mortal man to experience marked consciousness of the spirit activities of such divine entities as the Paradise Adjusters. As the soul of joint mind and Adjuster creation becomes increasingly existent, there also evolves a new phase of soul consciousness which is capable of experiencing the presence, and of recognizing the spirit leadings and other supermaterial activities, of the Mystery Monitors.
5:2.6 (65.2) The entire experience of Adjuster communion is one involving moral status, mental motivation, and spiritual experience. The self-realization of such an achievement is mainly, though not exclusively, limited to the realms of soul consciousness, but the proofs are forthcoming and abundant in the manifestation of the fruits of the spirit in the lives of all such inner-spirit contactors.
Me: While growth (spiritization) may be unconscious, the realization of the results of growth are certainly evident…or there’s been no growth. The fruits of the Spirit are not easily hidden and are never disguised. We either have more and more of….love, joy, peace, long-suffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, and temperance….or we do not. Such fruit should deliver bliss….and that peace that passes all understanding….but not any form of ease, no. We are built to yearn, seek, and strive…but all of those are so much better when accompanied by utter trust and total confidence in future outcomes of destiny.
Or so is my experience.
Well said Bradly. Mark quoted Jesus (159:3.7) but didn’t seem to notice the last sentence:
In entering the kingdom, you cannot escape its responsibilities or avoid its obligations, but remember: The gospel yoke is easy and the burden of truth is light.
Responsibilities may be difficult but when done with an attuned attitude and in the company of your closest friend and companion, Jesus himself, then it’s easy and light. Right? Prayer is all you need to stay connected to him, to maintain the dialogue.
I fear our discussion may have broken down into a debate over semantics, and we may just have to agree to disagree. To my mind, it seems clear that Jesus is referring to “… every honest attempt of the material mind to communicate with its indwelling spirit,” which I presume, would apply to attempts at both prayer and worship. (see 133.4.10)
I think what you’re talking about here is the practice of the presence of God. Although dependent upon prayer, it has more to do with soul growth and spiritual progress. The practice of the presence of God is not a mystical experience that can be conjured up with various techniques and practices. It is rather a process of getting to know the person you call God, who lives in your head, and that is accomplished through the prayer of faith. (91:3.4; 91:4.4; 91:6.3; 91:6.7)
There’s a lot said in TUB about the practice of the presence of God. I’ll offer a few quotes rather than a dissertation.
3:4.6 Mortal man cannot possibly know the infinitude of the heavenly Father. Finite mind cannot think through such an absolute truth or fact. But this same finite human being can actually feel — literally experience — the full and undiminished impact of such an infinite Father’s LOVE. Such a love can be truly experienced, albeit while quality of experience is unlimited, quantity of such an experience is strictly limited by the human capacity for spiritual receptivity and by the associated capacity to love the Father in return.
5:2.3 The divine presence cannot, however, be discovered anywhere in nature or even in the lives of God-knowing mortals so fully and so certainly as in your attempted communion with the indwelling Mystery Monitor, the Paradise Thought Adjuster. What a mistake to dream of God far off in the skies when the spirit of the Universal Father lives within your own mind!
5:2.5 It is exceedingly difficult for the meagerly spiritualized, material mind of mortal man to experience marked consciousness of the spirit activities of such divine entities as the Paradise Adjusters. As the soul of joint mind and Adjuster creation becomes increasingly existent, there also evolves a new phase of soul consciousness which is capable of experiencing the presence, and of recognizing the spirit leadings and other supermaterial activities, of the Mystery Monitors.
13:4.5 The determiner of the differential of spiritual presence exists in your own hearts and minds and consists in the manner of your own choosing, in the decisions of your minds, and in the determination of your own wills. This differential is inherent in the freewill reactions of intelligent personal beings, beings whom the Universal Father has ordained shall exercise this liberty of choosing. And the Deities are ever true to the ebb and flow of their spirits in meeting and satisfying the conditions and demands of this differential of creature choice, now bestowing more of their presence in response to a sincere desire for the same and again withdrawing themselves from the scene as their creatures decide adversely in the exercise of their divinely bestowed freedom of choice. And thus does the spirit of divinity become humbly obedient to the choosing of the creatures of the realms.
16:9.4 Human self-consciousness implies the recognition of the reality of selves other than the conscious self and further implies that such awareness is mutual; that the self is known as it knows. This is shown in a purely human manner in man’s social life. But you cannot become so absolutely certain of a fellow being’s reality as you can of the reality of the presence of God that lives within you.
103;9.11 Faith leads to knowing God, not merely to a mystical feeling of the divine presence. Faith must not be overmuch influenced by its emotional consequences. True religion is an experience of believing and knowing as well as a satisfaction of feeling.
155:6.12 Many of your brethren have minds which accept the theory of God while they spiritually fail to realize the presence of God. And that is just the reason why I have so often taught you that the kingdom of heaven can best be realized by acquiring the spiritual attitude of a sincere child. It is not the mental immaturity of the child that I commend to you but rather the spiritual simplicity of such an easy-believing and fully-trusting little one. It is not so important that you should know about the fact of God as that you should increasingly grow in the ability to feel the presence of God.
159:3.12 When my children once become self-conscious of the assurance of the divine presence, such a faith will expand the mind, ennoble the soul, reinforce the personality, augment the happiness, deepen the spirit perception, and enhance the power to love and be loved.
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