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I particularly like listening to “My Sweet Lord” by Lennon.
My apologies to George Harrison.
. . . a kind of proto- version of the childlike faith that Jesus taught. And that’s no small thing, even if it doesn’t always lead to full faith.
What’s full faith?
. . . a kind of proto- version of the childlike faith that Jesus taught. And that’s no small thing, even if it doesn’t always lead to full faith.
What’s full faith?
Good question. I should have elaborated. To me full faith is the kind that sees you all the way to fusion and eternal life. I know people who are pretty advanced practitioners of various yogic disciplines (of the Taoist, Buddhist, Hindu, or Sikh varieties) who can do things that you simply must be calm, relaxed, and in some sense very open to life to do, but in both word in deed show no interest–and sometimes scorn–for the kind of childlike faith that brings survival.
It’s certainly not my place to judge as individuals whether or not any one of them will survive, but given their collective disinterest or even disdain for individual survival, it seems to me quite reasonable to take them as a whole at their word and think that few will make it. This in spite of the fact that they are demonstrably capable of things that require profound calm, relaxation, and openness, and often lovely and altruistic people in many ways. At least to my mind, those are all qualities of faith but, esp. given the above, those qualities may be necessary but are not sufficient for the faith that brings eternal life.
I mentioned Ken Wilber previously. Again it is, of course, **not** my place to judge his individual fate in the afterlife, but since he’s pretty public with all this, I don’t think it’s unfair to use him at least as an analogy. Whatever his ultimate convictions and deepest motives, I’ve been reading his books for years and have never gotten the slightest indication that he has childlike faith in a loving and personal God. Quite the opposite. In fact, I remember him stating in a conversation with Nathaniel Branden that he is an atheist. And yet… I’ve learned some deep and valuable things from him, he does a great deal of good for the world, and he does things that simply cannot be done without a great deal of clarity, unity, calm and focus. This would be one example, if a somewhat reductionist one.
As I’m sure you and everyone else on this thread knows, TUB mentions in multiple places the existence of adjusters that had formerly indwelt great women and men who did good and important things for their worlds (things that had to have taken some kind of faith) and yet those persons did not survive and fuse. To me, full faith is the kind that gets you to survival and fusion.
My apology if that was more elaboration than necessary, but hopefully it clarified my thoughts. Thanks for asking!
As I’m sure you and everyone else on this thread knows, TUB mentions in multiple places the existence of adjusters that had formerly indwelt great women and men who did good and important things for their worlds (things that had to have taken some kind of faith) and yet those persons did not survive and fuse. To me, full faith is the kind that gets you to survival and fusion.
Carl….I’m not familiar with this but I’ve been looking for something about it. Hoping you might help. I did find this which shows that some TA’s indwell minds which do survive and enjoy the eternal adventure….but do not fuse with the Father Fragment:
(410.4) 37:5.1 The High Commissioners are Spirit-fused ascendant mortals; they are not Adjuster fused. You quite well understand about the universe-ascension career of a mortal candidate for Adjuster fusion, that being the high destiny in prospect for all Urantia mortals since the bestowal of Christ Michael. But this is not the exclusive destiny of all mortals in the prebestowal ages of worlds like yours, and there is another type of world whose inhabitants are never permanently indwelt by Thought Adjusters. Such mortals are never permanently joined in union with a Mystery Monitor of Paradise bestowal; nevertheless, the Adjusters do transiently indwell them, serving as guides and patterns for the duration of the life in the flesh. During this temporary sojourn they foster the evolution of an immortal soul just as in those beings with whom they hope to fuse, but when the mortal race is run, they take eternal leave of the creatures of temporary association.
(410.5) 37:5.2 Surviving souls of this order attain immortality by eternal fusion with an individualized fragment of the spirit of the local universe Mother Spirit. They are not a numerous group, at least not in Nebadon. On the mansion worlds you will meet and fraternize with these Spirit-fused mortals as they ascend the Paradise path with you as far as Salvington, where they stop. Some of them may subsequently ascend to higher universe levels, but the majority will forever remain in the service of the local universe; as a class they are not destined to attain Paradise.
(411.1) 37:5.3 Not being Adjuster fused, they never become finaliters, but they do eventually become enrolled in the local universe Corps of Perfection. They have in spirit obeyed the Father’s command, “Be you perfect.”
At least to my mind, those are all qualities of faith but, esp. given the above, those qualities may be necessary but are not sufficient for the faith that brings eternal life.
What I wonder about is that faith which is sufficient for survival as compared to that faith required to be sufficient for eternal life? The two forms or qualities or experiences of faith are hardly the same I think. Eternal life is not assured prior to fusion itself and much is required for fusion. If the same faith were required of both, then any and all who do not fuse during mortal life would also not survive mortal life and then, naturally, there would be no need for the Mansion Worlds I do not think.
Perhaps this would be best discussed on the 200 Million topic but as your quote is here, so are my questions. Happy to copy and paste this over there as others may prefer….and delete from here to help keep on topic.
I wonder what forms of worship might be experienced by primitive minds and the minds of children? We’ve discussed faith acts and love response in such ones and we know that Andon and Fonta worshiped in their way….but without any context, knowledge, or beliefs to either help or detract from such a fundamental experience. Even the original primitives survived this life and went on to either Father or Spirit fusion….barbaric and ferocious primitives driven by fears and without altruism…but with loyalties. Does the child like wonder and awe we all experience in life triggered by nature or music deliver a reverence to the source of such delight?
63:0.1 (711.1) URANTIA was registered as an inhabited world when the first two human beings — the twins — were eleven years old, and before they had become the parents of the first-born of the second generation of actual human beings. And the archangel message from Salvington, on this occasion of formal planetary recognition, closed with these words:
63:0.2 (711.2) “Man-mind has appeared on 606 of Satania, and these parents of the new race shall be called Andon and Fonta. And all archangels pray that these creatures may speedily be endowed with the personal indwelling of the gift of the spirit of the Universal Father.”
63:6.2 (716.1) Andon’s philosophy had been most confused; he had barely escaped becoming a fire worshiper because of the great comfort derived from his accidental discovery of fire. Reason, however, directed him from his own discovery to the sun as a superior and more awe-inspiring source of heat and light, but it was too remote, and so he failed to become a sun worshiper.
63:6.3 (716.2) The Andonites early developed a fear of the elements — thunder, lightning, rain, snow, hail, and ice. But hunger was the constantly recurring urge of these early days, and since they largely subsisted on animals, they eventually evolved a form of animal worship. To Andon, the larger food animals were symbols of creative might and sustaining power. From time to time it became the custom to designate various of these larger animals as objects of worship. During the vogue of a particular animal, crude outlines of it would be drawn on the walls of the caves, and later on, as continued progress was made in the arts, such an animal god was engraved on various ornaments.
63:7.2 (717.3) On Jerusem both Andon and Fonta were fused with their Thought Adjusters, as also were several of their children, including Sontad, but the majority of even their immediate descendants only achieved Spirit fusion.
Apparently, worship, like faith, takes many forms – including animal, fire, and sun worship – which still has an effect on mind which grows soul and brings spiritization sufficient for not only survival…but eternal fusion and life. Interesting. I wonder if God does not provide sufficient time for sufficient experience for sufficient results??
Bonita,
I share your interest in creative imagination and feel it is a powerful tool in the spiritual quest, a tool that is often underutilized. One of my favorite spiritual authors is A.K. Mozumdar.
“God has bestowed upon man the faculty of creative imagination by which man may become conscious of anything he chooses. No condition can exist to him without his conscious or unconscious recognition or acceptance of that condition. Whatever he recognizes and accepts becomes a reality to him.”
Mozumdar, The Triumphant Spirit, 1931.
I also share your interest in mental attitudes towards God and how they greatly affect the quality of both our prayers and our worship. If I may reiterate some of what you mentioned, Jesus emphasized the importance of maintaining this attitude of mind by stating both the reality that we are truly children of a Universal Father, as well as metaphorically – as a child has faith in his/her parents.
I think many would agree that two strong human inclinations are arrogance and pride, and I am no exception to these inclinations. But, as we are told, neither of these attitudes express spiritual reality nor the will of God. It is foolish of us to presume we are better than, or equal to, either God or any of his Sons and ministers. The reality of the situation is that, as compared to Deity, we will always remain in a subordinate position and, by being very humble, we not only demonstrate our acceptance of this reality, but also become more real in the process.
The same could be said for our trust in the goodness of God. Unwavering trust and belief puts our minds closer to the realities of the spiritual universe and cosmic citizenship. By trusting God, we become more real – spiritually mature. So when we come back to the notion of worship, I see the correct attitude of mind as an essential technique to a progressive realization of both our Father and the truth.
To tell another story – When my son was a tiny tot, I would put him on the mantelpiece (back when homes had fireplaces and mantelpieces). From there, he would laugh aloud and jump into my open arms with absolutely no hesitation at all, such was his childlike faith and trust in me.
Today, I recall these memories as a technique to correct my mental attitude prior to worship by imagining myself gleefully jumping from the edge of a mantelpiece before flying into the open arms of my loving Father.
Carl,
I really appreciate your efforts to introduce us to alternative methods and ways of thinking on the path to knowing God. And while I consider myself fairly well-read, I admit that I’m familiar with only one of your references – although I’m inclined to follow up on some others.
Nevertheless, if I understand to any degree the techniques you have mentioned, they are similar in intent to the methods of meditation, contemplation, and intelligent reflection mentioned in the UB, although the book is not always explicit about the specific mental processes involved. I think this vagueness is partly due to the fact that we must discover them for ourselves, just as we must also discover increasingly aware philosophies and scientific facts.
Many of us, once we have found the UB, read little else and tend to dismiss the discoveries of others (I did the same for a while). However, to some degree, our success and progression does rely on the discoveries of our fellows, not just in terms of science and sociology but even in the realm of mind and spirituality.
Through a survey of Amazon books, I notice an ongoing interest in meditation, mindfulness and yoga. While often these topics are discussed with no reference to a personal God, some of the techniques can be useful.
The UB uses the term “meditation” primarily in reference to the process of contemplation, which is a little different from the generally accepted notion, which is “to engage in mental exercise for the purpose of reaching a heightened level of spiritual awareness.” Merriam-Webster.
In the book, we see that Jesus uses meditation as a means to contemplate and resolve both mundane and spiritually-related problems. But we are also advised to meditate on the divine nature and attributes of God, the presence of the Spirit within, and the realities of truth, beauty, and goodness, as well as the realities of divine meanings and spiritual values which, I admit, are a little vague to me.
Spiritual, or worshipful meditation (as Rodan would say), also includes reflective worship and prayers of thanksgiving. But, while I understand the notion of reflection and self-reflection, I’m not entirely sure what “reflective worship” means.
I think of the art of mindfulness when it comes to self-reflection. In simple terms, mindfulness is the practice of truthfully and sincerely observing the thoughts and feelings that pass through our minds. It is used to become aware of the internal dialogue that serves to form much of our attitude towards life – our worldview as such. By checking, changing, deleting, or diverting certain thoughts, it can be a powerful tool for self-change, especially if used while imagining ourselves in the presence of God, a conscious reality which tends to keep us honest.
It’s certainly not my place to judge as individuals whether or not any one of them will survive, but given their collective disinterest or even disdain for individual survival, it seems to me quite reasonable to take them as a whole at their word and think that few will make it. This in spite of the fact that they are demonstrably capable of things that require profound calm, relaxation, and openness, and often lovely and altruistic people in many ways. At least to my mind, those are all qualities of faith but, esp. given the above, those qualities may be necessary but are not sufficient for the faith that brings eternal life.
I mentioned Ken Wilber previously. Again it is, of course, **not** my place to judge his individual fate in the afterlife, but since he’s pretty public with all this, I don’t think it’s unfair to use him at least as an analogy. Whatever his ultimate convictions and deepest motives, I’ve been reading his books for years and have never gotten the slightest indication that he has childlike faith in a loving and personal God. Quite the opposite. In fact, I remember him stating in a conversation with Nathaniel Branden that he is an atheist. And yet… I’ve learned some deep and valuable things from him, he does a great deal of good for the world, and he does things that simply cannot be done without a great deal of clarity, unity, calm and focus. This would be one example, if a somewhat reductionist one.
I think this quote explains what you’re describing above:
102:7.4 True, many apparently religious traits can grow out of nonreligious roots. Man can, intellectually, deny God and yet be morally good, loyal, filial, honest, and even idealistic. Man may graft many purely humanistic branches onto his basic spiritual nature and thus apparently prove his contentions in behalf of a godless religion, but such an experience is devoid of survival values, God-knowingness and God-ascension. In such a mortal experience only social fruits are forthcoming, not spiritual. The graft determines the nature of the fruit, notwithstanding that the living sustenance is drawn from the roots of original divine endowment of both mind and spirit.
Check out 101:3.4-18. It describes what true faith looks like. Nothing is mentioned about fusion there. All twelve spirit-like performances of a person with living faith have to do with everyday struggles of human existence. It’s all about the work of this world, not fusion. (I’d reproduce the quotes here but Bradley will be doing that in his thread soon.)
What I wonder about is that faith which is sufficient for survival as compared to that faith required to be sufficient for eternal life?
Yes, of course it’s the same faith, but it’s living faith and trust in God. A growing faithful person will progress in his/her trust in TRUTH, who is also a person.
p1141:5 103:9.7 Faith most willingly carries reason along as far as reason can go and then goes on with wisdom to the full philosophic limit; and then it dares to launch out upon the limitless and never-ending universe journey in the sole company of TRUTH.
Does the child like wonder and awe we all experience in life triggered by nature or music deliver a reverence to the source of such delight?
Do you think wonder and awe are the same thing as worship? Certainly many churches think so. The extraordinary buildings, ornate decorations and elaborate ceremonies are designed to move a person to awe and wonder. But, we’re told that is all evolutionary stuff. Fear evolves into awe and wonder and then finally into reverence. But worship is not about reverence; it’s about adoration and love. Jesus said he wanted us to move beyond reverence ” . . . .through recognition, realization, and appreciation, to love.”(149:6.3 )
Today, I recall these memories as a technique to correct my mental attitude prior to worship by imagining myself gleefully jumping from the edge of a mantelpiece before flying into the open arms of my loving Father.
That’s beautiful.
Various responses to various posts:
Another way of describing what I meant by “full faith” is to say that I probably should have just used the Urantia Book term for it, “saving faith”. That is, the faith that leads to salvation, that is, eternal survival. By my search “saving faith” is used ten times in the book, so I’m not going to list them here. Since for mortals eternal survival involves eventual fusion, it seems perfectly logical to describe saving (“full”) faith as that faith which leads to survival. Whether or not the book literally states that relaxation, openness to life, and calm are aspects of faith, I find it impossible to imagine a person whose life consisted largely of the opposite (chronic agitation, tension, and disregard for life) as having faith, so I think it is perfectly logical to regard these qualities as in some sense aspects or manifestations of faith. The life of Jesus further justifies that view, I think.
It doesn’t follow that those qualities must be possessed absolutely, at least in the flesh. But surely there must be a minimum threshold. If I had to describe what they lack that makes them necessary but not sufficient, I’d have to describe it as the kind of faith that loves God and life so much that it holds on to trusting Him no matter what.
Regarding mortals of exceptional character and planetary importance choosing not to survive, I’m all but certain that there is a quote that speaks to that perfectly directly but I have not been able to come up with the right keywords so far. In any case, I think it’s plenty reasonable to infer from many aspects of the book, esp. the fact that even spiritual beings of high cosmic intelligence and service have gone into default, combined with the quotes below:
Regarding what has to be a self-acting adjuster:
109:4.5 (1198.8) I have observed a Thought Adjuster indwelling a mind on Urantia who has, according to the records on Uversa, indwelt fifteen minds previously in Orvonton. We do not know whether this Monitor has had similar experiences in other superuniverses, but I suspect so. This is a marvelous Adjuster and one of the most useful and potent forces on Urantia during this present age. What others have lost, in that they refused to survive, this human being (and your whole world) now gains. From him who has not survival qualities, shall be taken away even that experienced Adjuster which he now has, while to him who has survival prospects, shall be given even the pre-experienced Adjuster of a slothful deserter.
Regarding self-acting adjusters as a class:
109:2.7 (1196.9) 6. Has served in a time of crisis in the experience of some human being who was the material complement of a spirit personality intrusted with the enactment of some cosmic achievement essential to the spiritual economy of the planet.
Bradly wrote:
Apparently, worship, like faith, takes many forms – including animal, fire, and sun worship – which still has an effect on mind which grows soul and brings spiritization sufficient for not only survival…but eternal fusion and life. Interesting. I wonder if God does not provide sufficient time for sufficient experience for sufficient results??
I may not be understanding your question correctly, but as I understand you I would say that God gives us sufficient time to all but some do not make proper use of it either by the kind of procrastination that uses up mercy credit or by judging ahead of the full presentation of evidence and choosing not to survive.
Whether or not the book literally states that relaxation, openness to life, and calm are aspects of faith, I find it impossible to imagine a person whose life consisted largely of the opposite (chronic agitation, tension, and disregard for life) as having faith, so I think it is perfectly logical to regard these qualities as in some sense aspects or manifestations of faith. The life of Jesus further justifies that view, I think.
I don’t know. My image of Elijah, is of a man who was constantly busy ” . . . overthrowing the altars of Baal and demolishing the idols of false gods. . . ” (97:2.1). It’s an image of a man who was pretty agitated and yet he managed to fuse. I agree though that disregard for life is not a characteristic I would consider as part of faith in the God I know and love.
(1064.2) 97:2.1 In the tenth century before Christ the Hebrew nation became divided into two kingdoms. In both of these political divisions many truth teachers endeavored to stem the reactionary tide of spiritual decadence that had set in, and which continued disastrously after the war of separation. But these efforts to advance the Hebraic religion did not prosper until that determined and fearless warrior for righteousness, Elijah, began his teaching. Elijah restored to the northern kingdom a concept of God comparable with that held in the days of Samuel. Elijah had little opportunity to present an advanced concept of God; he was kept busy, as Samuel had been before him, overthrowing the altars of Baal and demolishing the idols of false gods. And he carried forward his reforms in the face of the opposition of an idolatrous monarch; his task was even more gigantic and difficult than that which Samuel had faced.
(1065.2) 97:3.5 Out of this basic difference in the regard for land, there evolved the bitter antagonisms of social, economic, moral, and religious attitudes exhibited by the Canaanites and the Hebrews. This socioeconomic controversy did not become a definite religious issue until the times of Elijah. From the days of this aggressive prophet the issue was fought out on more strictly religious lines — Yahweh vs. Baal — and it ended in the triumph of Yahweh and the subsequent drive toward monotheism.
(1065.3) 97:3.6 Elijah shifted the Yahweh-Baal controversy from the land issue to the religious aspect of Hebrew and Canaanite ideologies. When Ahab murdered the Naboths in the intrigue to get possession of their land, Elijah made a moral issue out of the olden land mores and launched his vigorous campaign against the Baalites. This was also a fight of the country folk against domination by the cities. It was chiefly under Elijah that Yahweh became Elohim. The prophet began as an agrarian reformer and ended up by exalting Deity. Baals were many, Yahweh was one — monotheism won over polytheism.
Regarding mortals of exceptional character and planetary importance choosing not to survive, I’m all but certain that there is a quote that speaks to that perfectly directly but I have not been able to come up with the right keywords so far.
Sorry, can’t help. I don’t recall such a thing. But they do tell us that up to the time of fusion the choice for nonsurvival is possible for anyone.
(1218.9) 111:3.1 The mistakes of mortal mind and the errors of human conduct may markedly delay the evolution of the soul, although they cannot inhibit such a morontia phenomenon when once it has been initiated by the indwelling Adjuster with the consent of the creature will. But at any time prior to mortal death this same material and human will is empowered to rescind such a choice and to reject survival. Even after survival the ascending mortal still retains this prerogative of choosing to reject eternal life; at any time before fusion with the Adjuster the evolving and ascending creature can choose to forsake the will of the Paradise Father. Fusion with the Adjuster signalizes the fact that the ascending mortal has eternally and unreservedly chosen to do the Father’s will.
I don’t know. My image of Elijah, is of a man who was constantly busy ” . . . overthrowing the altars of Baal and demolishing the idols of false gods. . . ” (97:2.1). It’s an image of a man who was pretty agitated and yet he managed to fuse. I agree though that disregard for life is not a characteristic I would consider as part of faith in the God I know and love.
Every martial art that I have ever studied has put an intense emphasis on cultivating relaxation and calm in the midst of intense dynamism. It is in fact the central focus of many East Asian martial arts, and emphasized constantly in some western systems, esp. those from Russia.
Besides, pick up any book on sports psychology for athletes printed in the last 40 years and you’ll find a ton of stuff on breathing techniques, relaxation, meditation, and the like. It’s a fundamental part of being “in the zone.”
A central focus of my summer/fall job is dealing with bears in camp in a national park famous for its population of the lovable furry hooligans. You cannot “negotiate” successfully with wild bears unless you are relaxed enough to be sufficiently flexible in your responses. I’m going to out myself a bit and say that I can be seen (working on an “off” day) at around a little after 5:00 here. The stuff leading up to it will give you a taste for for what we deal with, although it can get far more intense. This is in no way just a theoretical concern from me.
The kind of relaxation and calm I’m talking about takes place whether you are sitting in zazen or running down the side of a mountain or smashing idols.
Every martial art that I have ever studied has put an intense emphasis on cultivating relaxation and calm in the midst of intense dynamism. It is in fact the central focus of many East Asian martial arts, and emphasized constantly in some western systems, esp. those from Russia.
Are you saying Elijah was smashing idols like a samurai? Or, are you saying that people who practice martial arts have more faith? This is not making sense to me.
Besides, pick up any book on sports psychology for athletes printed in the last 40 years and you’ll find a ton of stuff on breathing techniques, relaxation, meditation, and the like. It’s a fundamental part of being “in the zone.”
What does being “in the zone” have to do with faith in God? Are you saying athletes are practicing their faith because of their relaxation techniques?
By “zone” don’t you really mean striving to advance consciousness to the borderland where the superconscious overlaps the soul, the place where God lives? I don’t think breathing techniques really help with that very much since breathing has to do with the body, not the soul.
The kind of relaxation and calm I’m talking about takes place whether you are sitting in zazen or running down the side of a mountain or smashing idols.
You must be talking about self-confidence, self-control, self-respect, relaxation of the tendency to think only of one’s self in order to focus on what’s really important, and forms of mind control. These are all good things, but I don’t think these things lead to faith; it’s the other way around.
Rodan explained that worship is the source of relaxation. And that’s because, “Worship is the yardstick which measures the extent of the soul’s detachment from the material universe and its simultaneous and secure attachment to the spiritual realities of all creation.” (143:7.6).
Rodan described meditation and relaxation in these quotes: 160:1.12-13; 160:3.1; 160:3.5. Otherwise, when TUB mentions relaxation it’s usually referring to diversion from the stresses of creature existence.
But I definitely agree that living faith does bring an inner calm, or peace of mind, because of the assurance of the divine presence.
159:3.12 When my children once become self-conscious of the assurance of the divine presence, such a faith will expand the mind, ennoble the soul, reinforce the personality, augment the happiness, deepen the spirit perception, and enhance the power to love and be loved.
100:4.3 But the great problem of religious living consists in the task of unifying the soul powers of the personality by the dominance of LOVE. Health, mental efficiency, and happiness arise from the unification of physical systems, mind systems, and spirit systems. Of health and sanity man understands much, but of happiness he has truly realized very little. The highest happiness is indissolubly linked with spiritual progress. Spiritual growth yields lasting joy, peace which passes all understanding.
91:6.3 No matter how difficult it may be to reconcile the scientific doubtings regarding the efficacy of prayer with the ever-present urge to seek help and guidance from divine sources, never forget that the sincere prayer of faith is a mighty force for the promotion of personal happiness, individual self-control, social harmony, moral progress, and spiritual attainment.
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