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I was trying to point out that not all “spiritual religious experience” is necessarily personal.
Perhaps by adding the word personal they are trying to differentiate it from group religious experience, a part of social evolutionary religion. Can there be such a thing as e a group religious experience? Maybe, don’t know. We’ve certainly seen group hypnosis in cults and then there’s group think where a mass of people claim to witness miraculous phenomena that can never be proven, and we also have groups of religionists who get all fired up in pentecostal fashion, casting out demons, speaking in tongues, healing the sick and falling down in a stupor when taken over by the Holy Spirit.
But in reality, isn’t all genuine religious experience personal? How can it be otherwise?
But in reality, isn’t all genuine religious experience personal? How can it be otherwise?
(1121.3)102:3.1 Intellectual deficiency or educational poverty unavoidably handicaps higher religious attainment because such an impoverished environment of the spiritual nature robs religion of its chief channel of philosophic contact with the world of scientific knowledge. The intellectual factors of religion are important, but their overdevelopment is likewise sometimes very handicapping and embarrassing. Religion must continually labor under a paradoxical necessity: the necessity of making effective use of thought while at the same time discounting the spiritual serviceableness of all thinking.
If we overdevelop our religion, we have created an A-symmetrical mind. This quote is saying that if we overdevelop our religion its going to be crap. There isn’t that 3-fold harmony. Religion by itself is just a fairy tale of conscience. It needs to be lifted up by philosophy. And then correlated with science. This quote below is essentially pointing to the same thing.
(1114.4) 101:7.6 Philosophy transforms that primitive religion which was largely a fairy tale of conscience into a living experience in the ascending values of cosmic reality.
If our religion is just a fairy tale of conscience there is not a lot of personal activity there. When it gets transformed by philosophy religion turns into a living experience in the ascending values of cosmic reality. That cosmic reality is that 3-fold reality. A cosmic reality is not merely a spiritual reality or merely a material reality. But yes if its Genuine its personal. But not all “spiritual” experiences are genuinely True Religion.
This quote is saying that if we overdevelop our religion its going to be crap.
I didn’t interpret the quote that way. The quote says the overdevelopment of the “intellectual factors of religion”. If you recall, early primitive religion was based upon an overdevelopment of the intellectual factors of religion. That’s what made it handicapping and embarrassing.
85:02 Early religion was wholly intellectual in nature and was entirely predicated on associational circumstances.
Religion by itself is just a fairy tale of conscience.
A fairy tale of conscience? That’s not what the quote is saying. It’s saying that conscience is the fairy tale, not religion. Primitive religion confirmed a fairy tale conscious. That doesn’t make the religion a fairy tale. It’s saying that whatever was going on in the conscience of men was a fairy tale and that fairy tale influenced their primitive religion. Religion has always fashioned its God concept from its highest level of recognized values. The conscience is not the highest level of value and religious concepts (intellectual factors), evolve right along with religion. But religion always stands for man’s highest values and is therefore valuable, even if it is based on fairy tales.
110:5.1 Conscience is a human and purely psychic reaction. It is not to be despised, but it is hardly the voice of God to the soul, which indeed the Adjuster’s would be if such a voice could be heard.
Conscience has nothing to do with personal revealed religion and its living experience of ascending values of cosmic reality. Philosophy can certainly aid in the mind discernment of reality, but personality is the only thing that can correlate and unify reality and all of its relationships.
p1111:3 101:5.10 Evolutionary religion provides only the assurance of faith and the confirmation of conscience; revelatory religion provides the assurance of faith plus the truth of a living experience in the realities of revelation.
112:1.17 But the concept of the personality as the meaning of the whole of the living and functioning creature means much more than the integration of relationships; it signifies the unification of all factors of reality as well as co-ordination of relationships.
it was work related – work ethic, dedication, personal attitude, altruism passion to learn and do outstanding work – even on his own time without pay. Even though this was very material related I saw religion in it. There is something truly religious in it wouldn’t you say?
It all depends on his motivation, doesn’t it. It is possible that he was doing all of it out of conscience, duty, an exalted form of humanism. Only he would know that though. Regardless, I think it is a good idea to look for religious living in other people. It is one of those religious habits of thinking that contribute to spiritual growth (100:1.8)
195:10.1 Religion is only an exalted humanism until it is made divine by the discovery of the reality of the presence of God in personal experience.
A fairy tale of conscience? That’s not what the quote is saying. It’s saying that conscience is the fairy tale, not religion.
That is exactly what it is saying word for word.
(1114.4)101:7.6 Philosophy transforms that primitive religion which was largely a fairy tale of conscience into a living experience in the ascending values of cosmic reality.
That primitive religion WAS a fairy tale of conscience. Not “that primitive religion CONFIRMED a fairy tale conscious.” The quote is saying something in real simple English. It is saying that “Philosophy transforms that religion which was largely a fairy tale of conscience…” There shouldn’t be anything confusing about that, other than how it rubs people who are purely religious the wrong way. It is saying that if we haven’t had our religion transformed by philosophy we are still living a primitive religion which is largely a fairy tale of conscience. They are talking about everyone here. Philosophy takes religion to its supremacy by putting it in the full 3-fold cosmic picture. It becomes a holistic religion within the context of a True Science and True Philosophy. Its not just its own island thing anymore.
110:5.1 Conscience is a human and purely psychic reaction. It is not to be despised, but it is hardly the voice of God to the soul, which indeed the Adjuster’s would be if such a voice could be heard.
Conscience has nothing to do with personal revealed religion and its living experience of ascending values of cosmic reality.
Yes I agree but that is what a primitive religion is to most of the world. Its not really religion. That’s why the authors call it primitive religion. Its not True Religion. But its still evolutionary religion because its evolving towards True Religion. When it gets transformed by Philosophy it becomes True Religion. That is why we shouldn’t despise it because its all most of us have as religion.
Yes of course, philosophy can transform the intellectual part of religion. The conscience is the intellect. If the conscience is saying that God will get angry if I don’t follow certain rituals, then my religion will be concerned about performing those rituals. Through revelation, the intellect might begin to learn that God doesn’t get angry about those rituals being performed. That is revelation changing a philosophy concerning God creating a different way of thinking. Because of this, I might now begin to forget about the rituals and change my religion to accommodate a new philosophical understanding about God. I’ve realized that the old idea that grew out of my conscience was a fairy tale, ideas evolved and that effects the practice of religion. This doesn’t make the religion a fairy tale, both the new religion and the old are attempting to do God’s will. It was the belief dictated by conscience that was the fairy tale. It’s a fine point but important because people’s religion, regardless of being based on fairy tales or not, is the most important force on the planet.
1114.4)101:7.6 Philosophy transforms that primitive religion which was largely a fairy tale of conscience into a living experience in the ascending values of cosmic reality.
Religion IS the fairy tail of conscience. Until its transformed by philosophy. There is no other way to read this….Try giving this quote to someone who has never read TUB, they will read it the same way. Just because a religion is largely a fairy tale of conscience that doesn’t mean its not important. It just needs to be transformed into True Religion within a cosmic context. “Ascending values of cosmic reality” that is a reference to True Religion. That is what this primitive religion gets transformed into. That is one of the many reasons there is philosophy, to transform our religious life and take it up to a cosmic level.
Religion IS the fairy tail of conscience. Until its transformed by philosophy.
So, are you saying that religion cannot evolve unless transformed by philosophy? Do you think there is such a thing as a fairy tale philosophy?
I think religion can evolve without philosophy up to a certain point, but I don’t think there can be true religion with philosophy transforming it. Yea I think there is a fairy tale of philosophy, I would call those rationalization schemes.
. . . but I don’t think there can be true religion with philosophy transforming it.
So true religion is not transformed by philosophy?
So true religion is not transformed by philosophy?. . .
I don’t think there can be true religion with philosophy transforming it (mere evolutionary religion/primitive religion).
So primitive religion gets transformed by philosophy and becomes True Religion.
So primitive religion gets transformed by philosophy and becomes True Religion.
Okay, then where does revelation come in?
Well mota is superphilosophy and revelation compensates for a lack of mota insight. Revelation is essentially replacing this philosophical perspective. So if we have a good philosophy budding up it can join up with this revelation and complete the philosophic picture. If we were on the mansion worlds the lower levels of mota would join up with our true philosophy to form a more complete picture. Mota does the same thing that revelation is doing.
Science is man’s attempted study of his physical environment, the world of energy-matter; religion is man’s experience with the cosmos of spirit values; philosophy has been developed by man’s mind effort to organize and correlate the findings of these widely separated concepts into something like a reasonable and unified attitude toward the cosmos. Philosophy, clarified by revelation, functions acceptably in the absence of mota and in the presence of the breakdown and failure of man’s reason substitute for mota—metaphysics. ~
On the mansion worlds mota is a huge part of our progression.
Mansonia the third is a world of great personal and social achievement for all who have not made the equivalent of these circles of culture prior to release from the flesh on the mortal nativity worlds. On this sphere more positive educational work is begun. The training of the first two mansion worlds is mostly of a deficiency nature—negative—in that it has to do with supplementing the experience of the life in the flesh. On this third mansion world the survivors really begin their progressive morontia culture. The chief purpose of this training is to enhance the understanding of the correlation of morontia mota and mortal logic, the co-ordination of morontia mota and human philosophy. Surviving mortals now gain practical insight into true metaphysics. This is the real introduction to the intelligent comprehension of cosmic meanings and universe interrelationships. The culture of the third mansion world partakes of the nature of the postbestowal Son age of a normal inhabited planet. ~ The Urantia Book, (47:5.3)
Metaphysics is our philosophic attempt at mota. Revelation replaces mota, it essentially accomplishes what our metaphysics set out to do. Revelation is able to give a top down philosophy. We can provide the bottom part and the two can join. Philosophy “partially fails” because without revelation its just not able to get that top down perspective, there is only so much a person can come up with on their own without revelation we need that “authoritative elimination of error”. It just makes having a cosmic philosophy that much easier.
Metaphysics has proved a failure; mota, man cannot perceive. Revelation is the only technique which can compensate for the absence of the truth sensitivity of mota in a material world. Revelation authoritatively clarifies the muddle of reason-developed metaphysics on an evolutionary sphere. ~ The Urantia Book, (103:6.8)
Science ends its reason-search in the hypothesis of a First Cause. Religion does not stop in its flight of faith until it is sure of a God of salvation. The discriminating study of science logically suggests the reality and existence of an Absolute. Religion believes unreservedly in the existence and reality of a God who fosters personality survival. What metaphysics fails utterly in doing, and what even philosophy fails partially in doing, revelation does; that is, affirms that this First Cause of science and religion’s God of salvation are one and the same Deity. ~ The Urantia Book, (101:2.7)
But there is so much more to all of this, I am still trying to figure it all out.
So let me see if I understand you. Human philosophy transforms evolutionary religion, revelation upsteps human philosophy so it can turn evolutionary religion into true religion. Is that what you’re saying? So the goal of revelation is true religion then? And the UB tells us that true religion is the religion of revelation (155:5.5)
Where do you think the Spirit of Truth comes in with all of this?
Well this is how I see it. We experience a measure of True Philosophy first when we go to the higher domain of our mind and this small measure of philosophic comprehension is there by grace. Because we all have souls and an adjuster and the SOT those spiritual influences can get us started. Within that philosophic consciousness we can engage religion with a more objective hand and that allows us to have True Religion. So religion gets taken up to a cosmic domain within our mind and it becomes a more holistic experience encompassing our entire moral/philosophic consciousness. The SOT ministers to us.
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