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The issue which has not really been explored here is “why” would the scribes of the UB indicate uncertainty about something, even after having presented a certainty? When one states that they know something to be a fact, and then indicate that as a part of that fact, they do not understand another aspect of that similar subject, might it have a specific meaning or be a request for other opinions, where in this case from the readers? If this book is truly composed of facts, why present questions, as if our interactive thoughts might present other possibilities? Also, could these questionable facts be an unknown problem which would require interaction with a material realm, or lower point of view?
Midi says above: “The issue which has not really been explored here is “why” would the scribes of the UB indicate uncertainty about something, even after having presented a certainty? When one states that they know something to be a fact, and then indicate that as a part of that fact, they do not understand another aspect of that similar subject, might it have a specific meaning or be a request for other opinions, where in this case from the readers? If this book is truly composed of facts, why present questions, as if our interactive thoughts might present other possibilities? Also, could these questionable facts be an unknown problem which would require interaction with a material realm, or lower point of view?”
I think the why and wherefore has been rather well illuminated myself….thanks Gene and Bonita for the awesome text/commentary on this innate and inherent mind-focus on understanding and explaining all things witnessed and conceived!! Gene – I must say I was inspired by the sailing over the edge challenge…the exhilaration of discovery and adventure is so well put by you – thanks. Also, it has been pointed out that such a demonstration and true sharing of the authors illustrates honesty, integrity, humility, confidence – even intimacy with us lowly tadpoles to show we are indeed all the same in important ways – and then, of course, the reality that there are many things in the universe of universes that only God or Deity CAN know or understand.
I wonder why you say: “If this book is truly composed of facts….” It sounds as if you mean that the UB is not comprised of facts. Do you really think the mortal mind might somehow know things that a Divine Counselor would not and they seek our help? Also, I did not say and have not read anything in these ponderings and musing and conjectures and opinions proffered in the Revelation by the authors as “questions” seeking solution by their audience of mortals. Where did you get that? And your use of the term “questionable facts” is a mighty leap of illogical and unreasonable accusation which presumes much – (facts are not questionable by the way….or they are not facts). The authors have made clear the facts presented and their own, occasional, lack of clarity regarding the “causes” of those facts and ultimate “meanings” of those facts.
You insert dark insinuations and suspicions of untrustworthiness again….and again….and again. There were no questions presented for us to answer to assist the celestials in their understandings! There is no such thing as questionable facts. The tens of thousands of facts presented are not reduced in reality, value, or meaning by the sincere “admission” that only One knows All and no one else may or ever will know what God knows!! I must confess my shock at your lack of humility and presumptuous questioning of a Divine Counselor, who has enjoyed the very presence of God in Paradise and service in all 7 Super universes, as someone who is seeking mortal help in understanding God …or anything else for that matter….well, it really cracked me up….once the shock wore off. For over an hour I chortled and laughed at the very audacity of your post…..then I thought….and truly hoped….you’re kidding right? Such is my sincere hope anyway. Good One!!! Hahahahahahaha! Priceless.
Here’s the mind who wrote Paper 1. I doubt any human mind has anything to contribute by experience, knowledge, conjecture, or intellect to this author (or any author of the Revelation).
1:7.9 (32.1) [Presented by a Divine Counselor, a member of a group of celestial personalities assigned by the Ancients of Days on Uversa, the headquarters of the seventh superuniverse, to supervise those portions of this forthcoming revelation which have to do with affairs beyond the borders of the local universe of Nebadon. I am commissioned to sponsor those papers portraying the nature and attributes of God because I represent the highest source of information available for such a purpose on any inhabited world. I have served as a Divine Counselor in all seven of the superuniverses and have long resided at the Paradise center of all things. Many times have I enjoyed the supreme pleasure of a sojourn in the immediate personal presence of the Universal Father. I portray the reality and truth of the Father’s nature and attributes with unchallengeable authority; I know whereof I speak.]
I felt great confidence in the UB authors many times and concluded they did a thorough vetting of what they shared. Recall that much of the book is a result of questions submitted by a small human group in Chicago. From these questions they determined much of what was needed.
The Melchizedek Revelatory Director knows his challenge and has been tasked with a very important mission. The authors are superior to us mortals and they each have had and likely are accumulating more experience. Recall they’ve had experience with humans in 3,840, 101 inhabited Nebadon planets before the Urantia FEF.
It seems (at least sometimes) a bit foolish and wasteful for us mortals to pontificate or to ‘befog’ our thinking for what we cannot prove. Guessing could be creative, but to argue on guesses seems wasteful. I trust the UB authors for having done us a huge favor.
I think the why and wherefore has been rather well illuminated myself….thanks Gene and Bonita for the awesome text/commentary on this innate and inherent mind-focus on understanding and explaining all things witnessed and conceived!! Here’s the mind who wrote Paper 1. I doubt any human mind has anything to contribute by experience, knowledge, conjecture, or intellect to this author (or any author of the Revelation).
1:7.9 (32.1) [Presented by a Divine Counselor, a member of a group of celestial personalities assigned by the Ancients of Days on Uversa, the headquarters of the seventh superuniverse, to supervise those portions of this forthcoming revelation which have to do with affairs beyond the borders of the local universe of Nebadon. I am commissioned to sponsor those papers portraying the nature and attributes of God because I represent the highest source of information available for such a purpose on any inhabited world. I have served as a Divine Counselor in all seven of the superuniverses and have long resided at the Paradise center of all things. Many times have I enjoyed the supreme pleasure of a sojourn in the immediate personal presence of the Universal Father. I portray the reality and truth of the Father’s nature and attributes with unchallengeable authority; I know whereof I speak.]
So Midi….if you’re up to it….please advise the Divine Counselor as to reality and the facts of God….can’t wait for that. Good Grief. It is possible evidently for pride to know NO limit I suppose.
Bradly, personally I have no idea of what the hell you are talking about, as usual your personal presentation comes across as an insult, which for one who talks about following the teaching of Jesus, really surprises me to no end, but I have learned to take all in with a grain of salt, because I have worked with many handicapped persons and have found that regardless of their outgoing personality traits, they have something to offer. Nevertheless in the previous UB narration to the one you presented above, the acknowledgements to paper 1, it reads as follows:
(31.8) 1:7.8 The fact of the Paradise Trinity in no manner violates the truth of the divine unity. The three personalities of Paradise Deity are, in all universe reality reactions and in all creature relations, as one. Neither does the existence of these three eternal persons violate the truth of the indivisibility of Deity. I am fully aware that I have at my command no language adequate to make clear to the mortal mind how these universe problems appear to us. But you should not become discouraged; not all of these things are wholly clear to even the high personalities belonging to my group of Paradise beings. Ever bear in mind that these profound truths pertaining to Deity will increasingly clarify as your minds become progressively spiritualized during the successive epochs of the long mortal ascent to Paradise.
Where your presenter states that he/she, or it, has “no language adequate” to convey or express clearly, to use mortals (or mind’s) “how these universe problems appear to” them. So, they perceive that there are problems, and they are aware that they have no way of telling us what those problems are, as they see them, but we should not be “discouraged” because not even all of “the high personalities” “are wholly clear” of them either. So, would this also imply that within their own language, they cannot communicate with each other these “profound truths”?
Then in the last sentence, it indicates that when we or our “minds become progressively spiritualized” that these “profound truths” will become clearer to us? Okay, then, why bother to tell us now, if we can’t understand what has been presented in paper 1 of the UB?
So Bradly, …if your up to it… can you translate to me what this previous UB narration actually means to you, since you clearly understand what the book says and doesn’t say?
Please note the following:
(53.4) 3:6.6 Does the Paradise Father suffer? I do not know. The Creator Sons most certainly can and sometimes do, even as do mortals. The Eternal Son and the Infinite Spirit suffer in a modified sense. I think the Universal Father does, but I cannot understand how; perhaps through the personality circuit or through the individuality of the Thought Adjusters and other bestowals of his eternal nature. He has said of the mortal races, “In all your afflictions I am afflicted.” He unquestionably experiences a fatherly and sympathetic understanding; he may truly suffer, but I do not comprehend the nature thereof.
Also presented by a “Divine Counselor”. But, as indicated above that “He has said”, where I must assume that the Father “has said” but does the author not believe the Father? So, if a “Divine Counselor” is not sure, or does not know, what else is questionable?
53.7) 3:6.9 [Being the Divine Counselor assigned to the presentation of the revelation of the Universal Father, I have continued with this statement of the attributes of Deity.]
Then there is the following filled with question marks and answered with opinion.
(133.4) 12:4.2 The Unqualified Absolute is functionally limited to space, but we are not so sure about the relation of this Absolute to motion. Is motion inherent therein?We do not know. We know that motion is not inherent in space; even the motions of space are not innate. But we are not so sure about the relation of the Unqualified to motion. Who, or what, is really responsible for the gigantic activities of force-energy transmutations now in progress out beyond the borders of the present seven superuniverses? Concerning the origin of motion we have the following opinions:
(133.5) 12:4.3 1. We think the Conjoint Actor initiates motion in space.
(133.6) 12:4.4 2. If the Conjoint Actor produces the motions of space, we cannot prove it.
(133.7) 12:4.5 3. The Universal Absolute does not originate initial motion but does equalize and control all of the tensions originated by motion.Then this one, to present just a few.
(136.4) 12:6.6 All phases of primordial force, nascent spirit, and other nonpersonal ultimates appear to react in accordance with certain relatively stable but unknown laws and are characterized by a latitude of performance and an elasticity of response which are often disconcerting when encountered in the phenomena of a circumscribed and isolated situation. What is the explanation of this unpredictable freedom of reaction disclosed by these emerging universe actualities? These unknown, unfathomable unpredictables — whether pertaining to the behavior of a primordial unit of force, the reaction of an unidentified level of mind, or the phenomenon of a vast preuniverse in the making in the domains of outer space — probably disclose the activities of the Ultimate and the presence-performances of the Absolutes, which antedate the function of all universe Creators.
(136.5) 12:6.7 We do not really know, but we surmise that such amazing versatility and such profound coordination signify the presence and performance of the Absolutes, and that such diversity of response in the face of apparently uniform causation discloses the reaction of the Absolutes, not only to the immediate and situational causation, but also to all other related causations throughout the entire master universe.
Bradly wrote: For over an hour I chortled and laughed at the very audacity of your post…..then I thought….and truly hoped….you’re kidding right?Doesn’t look like it Bradly. Remember this:
MidiChlorian wrote: As to number 3); I am currently active on such a forum which professes to be receiving such communications, where for the most part, has been pre-qualified by the presenter as being a place where those individuals who believe they can “receive and transmit” can present their material. For the most part, one can think that this is an outlet for those who might otherwise have a delusion or valid thinking of their abilities to do so, would otherwise be preoccupied elsewhere doing, who knows what. Nevertheless, some so called messages, seem to be very common, others may have more substance then one can arbitrarily discard as delusion. For the most part, these folks are looking for some social commonality and with the exception of predicting impending disasters, etc., which has been with us for some time, I can see no real harm, other than to register their true personalities as they believe it to be. As I read many of those posts, on can really get an understanding as to what their adjuster would need to work on.And this:
MidiChlorian wrote: I’ve been studying in an area which is beyond singular areas and attempting to combine multiple areas of study into a more productive area. There are many similarities between subject material that may produce a combined theory that may work better for finding out detailed information. I have found similarities in the text of the UB which seems to link several areas of study together because they seem to be related. But, I don’t expect anyone to understand what I have found because for the most part people are generally mean natured when they cannot understand new concepts.So Bradly, …if your up to it… can you translate to me what this previous UB narration actually means to you, since you clearly understand what the book says and doesn’t say?
Looks like I have a dish of crow and some humble pie to digest this morning. Midi, one of the reasons for starting this topic was to allow you to express your beliefs, questions, and propositions regarding the authors’ presentations of their own uncertainties. I confess my bad form and gladly accept your rebuke…it is well deserved. There is no reason (no good reason that is) for me to be snide or sarcastic. I appreciate your point about the Master which demonstrates how much progress I have yet to make in being insightful, gracious, and witty! And I also appreciate your patience with my “handicaps”.
I readily confess, and repeat, that I do not and have never claimed to “understand what the books says”, and certainly do not claim to understand what it does not say…..that historic and consistent claim of mine is that “the UB says what it says and does not say what it does not”.…I hope that distinction eventually becomes clearer to you. I do not consider or posture myself as an “interpreter” of the Papers and readily admit that my “understanding” is both limited and progressive as well as “personal”, meaning my intellect, experience, wisdom, and insight are those of a tadpole and in no way approaches the intellect, experience, wisdom, and insight of the authors of the Revelation.
So….as I understand the issue as proposed, some of us conclude that the authors are sharing the reality that there are “mysteries” in the universe of universes – both in Paradise and, by extension, in time and space. And that the questions posed are not presented seeking any form of answer/solution from or by the audience – considering the disparity in knowledge, wisdom, experience, and proximity of the authors to the mysteries they have presented to the audience….a rhetorical form of sharing that which is unknown, and likely unknowable, to any mind which is not the First Source and Center – the creator of and upholder of all other minds and personalities.
As I understand it, you propose that these questions are posited for the audience to consider….and solve…and that mortal mind is capable of comprehending and understanding and solving these “problems” presented. (I hope I have not misstated or misrepresented your proposition and understanding.)
I will conclude, for now: I think all such ponderings and questions asked are without-answer for both the author(s) and the audience. I would further claim to believe that “These unknown, unfathomable unpredictable…” are unknown and unfathomable as stated – and so I personally conclude that the questions are not offered for our solution but were included for some other reason(s)….some of which have been offered here by myself and others. Also, I still wonder what “questionable facts” might be and your inference that a text which includes both facts-claimed and mysteries-unknown somehow diminishes the truths and facts or becomes unreliable in its authoritative presentations of reality, history, and personalities.
Thanks Bonita! It is such hubris and sophistries (as those claims you posted and iterated by Midi) that sets my hair on fire….I do not regret my position on the matter but my lack of poise and wisdom does not serve that position either. So much for tadpoles to learn…to be innocent and wise…and with wit too! Let those who may solve the problems and answer the questions of a Divine Counselor do so.
I look forward to more text and discussions on the topic….and hope for better deportment and more graciousness on my own part! = )
26:4.13 When, through and by the ministry of all the helper hosts of the universal scheme of survival, you are finally deposited on the receiving world of Havona, you arrive with only one sort of perfection — perfection of purpose. Your purpose has been thoroughly proved; your faith has been tested. You are known to be disappointment proof. Not even the failure to discern the Universal Father can shake the faith or seriously disturb the trust of an ascendant mortal who has passed through the experience that all must traverse in order to attain the perfect spheres of Havona. By the time you reach Havona, your sincerity has become sublime. Perfection of purpose and divinity of desire, with steadfastness of faith, have secured your entrance to the settled abodes of eternity; your deliverance from the uncertainties of time is full and complete; and now must you come face to face with the problems of Havona and the immensities of Paradise, to meet which you have so long been in training in the experiential epochs of time on the world schools of space.
Evidently, the “problems of Havona” remain mysterious to even a Divine Counselor (and we must remember the author’s further qualification in the Papers that both language and mortal mind are additional obstacles to all such issues of both communication and understanding), which, again, means to me that the questions posed have no expectation of the audience to answer….not until both fusion and finality….if even then. = )
44:0.13 As in all other phases of the ascending career those who are most advanced in any line of endeavor are required constantly to impart their superior knowledge and skill to their less favored fellows.
Clearly, the authors of TUB are endeavoring to impart their superior knowledge to humans, that is, to those who are capable of learning it. Of course some learners will have questions, which I’m sure these superior beings were well aware of when writing TUB. Knowing that humans might make inquiries for which they did not have answers, they willingly acknowledged in advance what they do not know. That’s a sign of an excellent teacher. Of course the human mind has every right to attempt to answer those questions for themselves, but any sane mind would readily recognize the obvious fact that if a superior being does not know something, it is unlikely any human mind will know it either.
Although humans have the right to speculate and imagine answers, just as our superior and divine teachers have the same right, it is doubtful the human mind would be capable of coming up with ideas that would be the least bit trustworthy. We know that in any universe contest, the more superior personality will dominate. This universe phenomenon applies to a contest of ideas. Ideas which are more in tune with reality are more divine and will therefore triumph. For someone to think their ideas are more reality attuned than a celestial being’s ideas presumes that they are superior to that celestial being, and that is absolutely pure poppycock.
2:3.5 In any universe contest between actual levels of reality, the personality of the higher level will ultimately triumph over the personality of the lower level. This inevitable outcome of universe controversy is inherent in the fact that divinity of quality equals the degree of reality or actuality of any will creature.
Thank you for clarifying ‘omnificent,’ Bonita.
Also had a ‘lightbulb’ moment and realised that Google is our friend… :D
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