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Brooklyn_born wrote: So you are saying to be honest no matter what the situation, even if it means you will constantly find yourself offending people?
I said that if you have to put on false fronts to maintain your relationships, you’re being dishonest and insincere. A mature person should be able to find a way to be honest without offending. It’s a skill we’re supposed to learn, and I admit, it does not come easily. Some people are born diplomats and others have to learn it. But you should always be genuine, be real, bring it from your heart as kindly and lovingly as you possibly can and then let the chips lie where they may while the Spirit of Truth does his own work. Here is a quote that describes the use of spiritual discernment when relating to others. It is not asking you to be false or dishonest, it is asking you to be wise.
180:5.5 The golden rule, when divested of the superhuman insight of the Spirit of Truth, becomes nothing more than a rule of high ethical conduct. The golden rule, when literally interpreted, may become the instrument of great offense to one’s fellows. Without a spiritual discernment of the golden rule of wisdom you might reason that, since you are desirous that all men speak the full and frank truth of their minds to you, you should therefore fully and frankly speak the full thought of your mind to your fellow beings. Such an unspiritual interpretation of the golden rule might result in untold unhappiness and no end of sorrow.
Is that reference suggesting that speaking truth at inopportune times may yield un-happy or -pleasant endings?
BB
Bradly, I presented a situation to Bonita in another thread seeking advice. The situation is as follows:
I characterize a friend as hyper-religious; he is no danger to society but harbors radical sentiments (eg., very judgmental of Western lifestyle, thinks natural disasters are from God to punish mankind). Our friendship spans over 20 years. During the early years of the relationship, relentlessly, I’d argue with this friend, in hopes of winning him over to reason and tolerance, still to no avail. At some point I just gave up. I resolved within myself that it was pointless as he was stuck in his way.
For the past few years, however, I find myself agreeing with him when he engages me in religious and social discussions, while in my heart I do not. I feel compelled to ‘play along‘ to keep the peace and maintain friendship. Honestly, I had grown tired with my futile attempts at trying to convince him that his world view is mentally unhealthy.
In a way, I am putting on a facade. So I thought your thread was the appropriate venue to readdress my question. Do you think I am wrong for posturing this way? Bonita says I am wrong and she presented references to support her position. Short of ending the friendship, I do not see any other way to approach this situation.
Maybe I am fishing for moral support to continue my behavior towards him*shrugs*
BB
Is that reference suggesting that speaking truth at inopportune times may yield un-happy or -pleasant endings?
It’s saying that speaking the truth without the wise discretion that spiritual discernment brings can yield unhappy endings. Spiritual discernment is the keyword phrase here, followed in importance by the phrase wise discretion. Also note that they call it the golden rule of wisdom.
Spiritual discernment means that you recognize the fact that you love the other person in the relationship with a fatherly affection. Wise discretion means that you know the other person well enough to recognize how to bring the most goodness to the relationship. If you don’t know how to stop being false in a friendship, or if you live in fear of losing the friendship by being true to yourself, then I would think that you have some work to do on spiritual discernment and wise discretion. It’s the old wise as serpents, harmless as doves adage.
These things are individual and situation specific, so it’s not really possible to give blanket advice. Basically, you have to get to know God, know yourself and know your brother better. It’s the process of socializing the personality while sharing the inner life with God. That’s how you learn to do God’s will in all situations and with all people. Mistakes will be made, however. Wisdom comes at a price. So you piss off a few people now and then unwittingly, so what! It gives them the opportunity to forgive you and it gives you the opportunity to be humble enough to ask for and accept forgiveness. What’s wrong with that? If you walk around on eggshells all of the time pretending to be someone you’re not, you’re going to miss some opportunities to bring light into this world. I would say one light-filled encounter is worth a couple of blunders now and then.
Brooklyn_born wrote: For the past few years, however, I find myself agreeing with him when he engages me in religious and social discussions, while in my heart I do not. I feel compelled to ‘play along‘ to keep the peace and maintain friendship. Honestly, I had grown tired with my futile attempts at trying to convince him that his world view is mentally unhealthy.Here’s my advice, since you asked. Never argue with a person about his religion. Someone’s personal religion sets up their value system. Trying to pull it away from them would set them into a tumultuous sea of confusion. It’s like pulling the knife out of a wound and standing by to watch the internal bleeding kill the patient. You’re supposed to shine your light of truth and if the other person wants it, they take it and add it to their religion. If they reject it, who cares? You have every right to believe what you believe and live accordingly. If you disagree in your heart on an issue, say so. But don’t argue about it. If he wants to argue about it, say no. Say that you’ve thought about it and this is what you want to believe. If he loves you as a friend, he will allow you to have your own beliefs.
The problem with radical religionists is that they cannot accept other beliefs. There’s a chance he will reject you BB if he no longer thinks you’re a Muslim or a Muslim sympathizer. Only you know how to negotiate this. Eventually, the truth will come out; it always does. Sooner or later you will have to act out what you truly believe inside your heart, and it might come as a total shock to your friend, and he will say, “I don’t know you. You’re not the friend I thought I had.” And he would have every right to say that because you’ve been pretending to be someone else for years.
All I’m saying is that you don’t have to get into a big argument over anything. Just don’t say you believe in something when you don’t. In situations like this I usually say, “You’re entitled to believe that but I’m not convinced of it personally.” If the other person tries to convince me, I thank them for their concern and tell them that it is a decision I have to make for myself because I am my own person. Some people will shut up then. Some won’t. That’s when I walk away and tell them I have to think about it.
I have a friend of 25 years myself. Our friendship has had some serious ups and downs. I dumped her once when she did some very immoral things (it was tragic). She eventually saw her mistake and renewed our friendship. But I’ve always regretted not being up front about it with her at the time. Retrospectively, I don’t know if she would have changed her ways, but maybe she would have thought harder about it and the damage done to her children would have been less.
Our renewed friendship went along fine until her second marriage when she became a completely different person. She turned into a real shrew, constantly belittling her husband in public and being downright nasty to him. It is embarrassingly uncomfortable to be with them and watch this happening. Her husband is a wonderful person with a big and kind heart, who doesn’t deserve it. I nearly dumped her again, but this time, I decided to not keep my mouth shut about her indiscretions. Honestly, I felt obliged in some way to help her husband who is a real, genuine treasure of a person. So, I’m finding gentle ways to say what I think, trying not to hurt her. I’m also doing this because silence was actually killing the relationship and making her upset about loosing it again. Ignoring her actually made her sicker (mentally) and the abuse worse. The fact is that she cannot see herself for who and what she is. So I am trying, for seven years now, to lovingly be a mirror to her despicable behavior so she can see it for herself. It’s painful for me, I don’t always like being with her, but the alternative is equally bad, so I’m working on it, one day at a time. I know it is a deep psychological issue with her, but I am not a psychiatrist. I’m just trying to be a true friend, and that is really hard to do, especially to do it right.
Brooklyn_born wrote: For the past few years, however, I find myself agreeing with him when he engages me in religious and social discussions, while in my heart I do not. I feel compelled to ‘play along‘ to keep the peace and maintain friendship. Honestly, I had grown tired with my futile attempts at trying to convince him that his world view is mentally unhealthy.Here’s my advice, since you asked. Never argue with a person about his religion. Someone’s personal religion sets up their value system. Trying to pull it away from them would set them into a tumultuous sea of confusion. It’s like pulling the knife out of a wound and standing by to watch the internal bleeding kill the patient. You’re supposed to shine your light of truth and if the other person wants it, they take it and add it to their religion. If they reject it, who cares? You have every right to believe what you believe and live accordingly. If you disagree in your heart on an issue, say so. But don’t argue about it. If he wants to argue about it, say no. Say that you’ve thought about it and this is what you want to believe. If he loves you as a friend, he will allow you to have your own beliefs. The problem with radical religionists is that they cannot accept other beliefs. There’s a chance he will reject you BB if he no longer thinks you’re a Muslim or a Muslim sympathizer. Only you know how to negotiate this. Eventually, the truth will come out; it always does. Sooner or later you will have to act out what you truly believe inside your heart, and it might come as a total shock to your friend, and he will say, “I don’t know you. You’re not the friend I thought I had.” And he would have every right to say that because you’ve been pretending to be someone else for years. All I’m saying is that you don’t have to get into a big argument over anything. Just don’t say you believe in something when you don’t. In situations like this I usually say, “You’re entitled to believe that but I’m not convinced of it personally.” If the other person tries to convince me, I thank them for their concern and tell them that it is a decision I have to make for myself because I am my own person. Some people will shut up then. Some won’t. That’s when I walk away and tell them I have to think about it. I have a friend of 25 years myself. Our friendship has had some serious ups and downs. I dumped her once when she did some very immoral things (it was tragic). She eventually saw her mistake and renewed our friendship. But I’ve always regretted not being up front about it with her at the time. Retrospectively, I don’t know if she would have changed her ways, but maybe she would have thought harder about it and the damage done to her children would have been less. Our renewed friendship went along fine until her second marriage when she became a completely different person. She turned into a real shrew, constantly belittling her husband in public and being downright nasty to him. It is embarrassingly uncomfortable to be with them and watch this happening. Her husband is a wonderful person with a big and kind heart, who doesn’t deserve it. I nearly dumped her again, but this time, I decided to not keep my mouth shut about her indiscretions. Honestly, I felt obliged in some way to help her husband who is a real, genuine treasure of a person. So, I’m finding gentle ways to say what I think, trying not to hurt her. I’m also doing this because silence was actually killing the relationship and making her upset about loosing it again. Ignoring her actually made her sicker (mentally) and the abuse worse. The fact is that she cannot see herself for who and what she is. So I am trying, for seven years now, to lovingly be a mirror to her despicable behavior so she can see it for herself. It’s painful for me, I don’t always like being with her, but the alternative is equally bad, so I’m working on it, one day at a time. I know it is a deep psychological issue with her, but I am not a psychiatrist. I’m just trying to be a true friend, and that is really hard to do, especially to do it right.
We have similar situations, Bradly. At times I would avoid answering his phone calls. I just get frustrated having to deal with his overbearing and judgmental conversations. I agree, you should not argue with someone over their religion. The problem is he initiates the discussions and imposes his beliefs on me as though by default his view is correct. And what complicates the matter is I once held to the same religious view. Yet I have told him repeatedly I no longer subscribe to those beliefs but it falls on deaf ears. It is like he is in denial that I moved on with my life. I neglected to mention he and I met in the religion and the friendship continued after we both left the organization 22 years ago. We were both converted as teenagers (I was 17 at the time and he was 14). Without naming the religion (I am somewhat ashamed), suffice to say it is one of those reactionary, Black American radical religions (but I can tell you know which is it) popularized by the civil rights movement era.
BB
Is that reference suggesting that speaking truth at inopportune times may yield un-happy or -pleasant endings?
It’s saying that speaking the truth without the wise discretion that spiritual discernment brings can yield unhappy endings. Spiritual discernment is the keyword phrase here, followed in importance by the phrase wise discretion. Also note that they call it the golden rule of wisdom. Spiritual discernment means that you recognize the fact that you love the other person in the relationship with a fatherly affection. Wise discretion means that you know the other person well enough to recognize how to bring the most goodness to the relationship. If you don’t know how to stop being false in a friendship, or if you live in fear of losing the friendship by being true to yourself, then I would think that you have some work to do on spiritual discernment and wise discretion. It’s the old wise as serpents, harmless as doves adage. These things are individual and situation specific, so it’s not really possible to give blanket advice. Basically, you have to get to know God, know yourself and know your brother better. It’s the process of socializing the personality while sharing the inner life with God. That’s how you learn to do God’s will in all situations and with all people. Mistakes will be made, however. Wisdom comes at a price. So you piss off a few people now and then unwittingly, so what! It gives them the opportunity to forgive you and it gives you the opportunity to be humble enough to ask for and accept forgiveness. What’s wrong with that? If you walk around on eggshells all of the time pretending to be someone you’re not, you’re going to miss some opportunities to bring light into this world. I would say one light-filled encounter is worth a couple of blunders now and then.
I understand. Thanks for the explanation.
BB
Hello BB – yes, I got the connection to your prior post and query. A difficult situation and, as Bonita says, a specific situation that cannot be judged or solved with distance and lack of participation directly in the affair. However, I also think there are some principals from the UB that are always applicable, again as Bonita says, if we have the maturity, discretion, wisdom, and sincere heart to apply to any and every situation. So I hope your friends here may add some light to your quandry from our experience and by the text we share here together.
Religious fundamentalists come in all flavors and I’ve known many a narrow minded and fear driven Christian filled with judgments, anger, and certainty. I usually will not pollute my life with such ones for long but am quite willing to share my beliefs with anyone in any situation….but I do so discreetly and try to follow the Master’s example. What do they believe that we share? Begin there. I know my Bible very well and so I am able to engage any Christian in textual ways that often conflicts with the other party’s stated beliefs….I find this particularly confounding for “literalists” whose beliefs find contradiction in their own holy books. The essence of the Jesusonian gospel is not Christian or specific to any creed or dogma, and yet can be found in every religious faith and holy book on the planet today. The paternity of God and the family of all is the beginning point for me to attempt to get to – an easy point of agreement with my fundamentalist friends since that specific teaching is within their cherished holy book. What is love and what is its source? Does your friend really have some religion that does not include love? Now we come to those beliefs centered on an angry and vengeful god and who goes to heaven and who does not. I rely much on something my granny (a devout Christian) always told me about confusion, conflict, and contradiction – it really doesn’t matter, we’re in God’s hands and He knows what He’s about, just believe in Him and seek His way and will, and all that we do not understand will be made clear in time to come – you don’t need to understand to know God and live accordingly.
My wise granny did not argue or have an answer for every confusion but recognized the power of faith, rather than belief, to change the one and to change the all. One important thing to remember about faith – it is far more than belief and far more important, it is an acting on belief and it requires change in priorities, motives, and actions. So does your friend’s beliefs change him? for the better? Does your friend have mere beliefs and codes? Or does his faith in God require better behaviors? For if faith does not change us, then by definition we do not have faith at all. We cannot believe our way to heaven but must learn to act as though we are already in the kingdom and the kingdom is already here now all around and act so because of faith itself. One who lives in faith does not need their beliefs changed or challenged really, faith is bridge enough from here to there. One who believes something but does not change by it – and for the better – is unlikely to be changed then by someone else’s beliefs either.
Tough question and issue….thanks for sharing BB. And best wishes as you determine your own best response as you are able. But please remember, we discuss here response-ability and not responsibility – you are not responsible for the choices of any other. We cannot save people from themselves. A painful truth for friends, parents, and all others too.
Yet I have told him repeatedly I no longer subscribe to those beliefs but it falls on deaf ears. It is like he is in denial that I moved on with my life.
Well, you can always quote Martin Luther King: “I have decided to stick with love. Hate is too great a burden to bear.”
Yet I have told him repeatedly I no longer subscribe to those beliefs but it falls on deaf ears. It is like he is in denial that I moved on with my life.
Well, you can always quote Martin Luther King: “I have decided to stick with love. Hate is too great a burden to bear.”
Very hard to break it off. We have history together. He is like a brother to me.
BB
BB why don’t you just tell him that you don’t feel comfortable talking about religion and ask him if there is anything else he wants to talk about. Tell him that you feel comfortable talking about issues that are not so serious and that you don’t want to debate sensitive topics. If you tell him that you don’t want to talk about these sensitive topics that are usually issues kept private and he still doesn’t stop then I would suggest just making new friends.
Very hard to break it off. We have history together. He is like a brother to me.
I don’t think you have to break it off. Are you afraid he will break it off if he knows how you really feel? Does he think of you like a big brother?
If my little sister was doing this, I’d let her know my thoughts and feelings. But real sisters can’t ever really get rid of one another because of the blood ties. We could make each other miserable but we could never really loose our sisterhood status. If you and this fellow are really brothers, there should be no real danger of loosing your brotherhood status. It might get uncomfortable and dicey for a while, but a real brother wouldn’t completely destroy the relationship without destroying himself right along with it. At least this is how I hope it would be. I mean, the heart of the matter is that you have two separate sets of beliefs. You tell him that he can have his and you want to have yours, end of story. Brothers do that, don’t they? Why not get it out in the open and then vow to maintain the relationship on what you do share. There must be something you have in common that you can root the relationship on and then hope it evolves and grows. No need to kill the whole tree because some of the branches are encroaching on one another. I don’t know. Easy for me to say, I guess. I should just shut up.
BB – please add or ask more as you wish – this particular tangent is both welcome and on topic – but I’d like to add some more text for our contemplation related to this reality of what the individual can and must control – our responses to all situations and intersections of free will choice. I think this is one definition of the religious life – to choose and act in faith and by love in every opportunity – to be in control of choices and to learn to understand the consequences of choice to self and to others. There is a universal law – the law of reciprocity (or as I was first introduced to it – sowing what we reap and later, the original form of karma) which was taught by the Master and is well presented by the Master in Part IV of the UB, and elsewhere in text. We determine who we are now and who we will become by our choices as those directly reflect our motives, intentions, priorities, and acts in life. The more aligned our will is with Spirit, the better we sow and the better the harvest of spirit fruit. The good vine puts forth the good fruit we are taught and the good vine is that which delivers that which the root and branch bring to the vine – truth, beauty, goodness, love, faith. When our choices reflect THIS then we are blessed in many ways. Challenges and confusions may remain (we are here to learn response-ability after all so we will never be done choosing to learn thereby and therefrom how best TO respond), but the choices become more natural when we choose by our very nature and trust….a function of experience.
(2095.4) 196:3.20 Every time man makes a reflective moral choice, he immediately experiences a new divine invasion of his soul. Moral choosing constitutes religion as the motive of inner response to outer conditions. But such a real religion is not a purely subjective experience. It signifies the whole of the subjectivity of the individual engaged in a meaningful and intelligent response to total objectivity — the universe and its Maker.
(2096.8) 196:3.32 Some men’s lives are too great and noble to descend to the low level of being merely successful. The animal must adapt itself to the environment, but the religious man transcends his environment and in this way escapes the limitations of the present material world through this insight of divine love. This concept of love generates in the soul of man that superanimal effort to find truth, beauty, and goodness; and when he does find them, he is glorified in their embrace; he is consumed with the desire to live them, to do righteousness.
(2097.2) 196:3.34 The great challenge to modern man is to achieve better communication with the divine Monitor that dwells within the human mind. Man’s greatest adventure in the flesh consists in the well-balanced and sane effort to advance the borders of self-consciousness out through the dim realms of embryonic soul-consciousness in a wholehearted effort to reach the borderland of spirit-consciousness — contact with the divine presence. Such an experience constitutes God-consciousness, an experience mightily confirmative of the pre-existent truth of the religious experience of knowing God. Such spirit-consciousness is the equivalent of the knowledge of the actuality of sonship with God. Otherwise, the assurance of sonship is the experience of faith.
The challenge I think is to choose with less ME and more THEE and to choose not from fear but from faith and not by material needs or results but for those results which bear spirit fruit. Sometimes I have faced choices that on the one hand might deliver materially but the other choice might cost me materially but serve my spirituality. Which way will we choose at such a time? Well, I think, that is the choice perhaps every time. From what perspective do we choose? For whose benefit do we choose? Do we have faith that Father always rewards faith somehow in sometime and that our daily bread is assured by our faith more than by our self? Interesting. Our response-ability is profoundly important to our progress.
Bradly wrote: There is a universal law – the law of reciprocity (or as I was first introduced to it – sowing what we reap and later, the original form of karma) which was taught by the Master and is well presented by the Master in Part IV of the UB, and elsewhere in text.Wait!! What?? Hold on for a second . . . I need to digest this . . . I’m confused.
I don’t think that there is such a thing in God’s kingdom as a law of reciprocity. Reciprocity is primitive (68:1.3). Reciprocity is the practice of mutual exchange of benefits and privileges. Those engaging in reciprocity expect to receive something of equal value in exchange for what they are giving. Reciprocity works well when both parties do not fully trust one another, which is primitive, suspicious and fear-based. It’s like the bargaining and appeasement primitives used. God gives of himself liberally and does not demand reciprocity.
Maybe you mean that we reap what we sow (131:2.8; 131:2.9; 148:6.3)? Or, the repercussional synthesis of causation in the Supreme (94:3.5) ? That’s not reciprocity as I understand it though. Of course, I’m a stickler for the dictionary:
reciprocity |ˌresəˈpräsətē|noun: the practice of exchanging things with others for mutual benefit, esp. privileges granted by one country or organization to another.
BB why don’t you just tell him that you don’t feel comfortable talking about religion and ask him if there is anything else he wants to talk about. Tell him that you feel comfortable talking about issues that are not so serious and that you don’t want to debate sensitive topics. If you tell him that you don’t want to talk about these sensitive topics that are usually issues kept private and he still doesn’t stop then I would suggest just making new friends.
Scott, he is a fanatic with his belief. Everything in life is viewed through the lens of religion, and his conversations reflect it, as religion dominates nearly every opinion, remark, etc that he makes. If I tell him do not bring these conversations around me, then pretty much the relationship is all but over. I am at a crossroads. Hey, I appreciate everyone’s input. Thanks.
BB
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